Spoiler warning. Please do not read there will be spoilers

I have some thoughts on superman rebirth and wanted some feedback

so we know that there r two supermen or one now with the "death" of 52 Clark to which I do not think is dead but will talk about this later ,

So we know that Lois ,Clark and there son Jon are from the pre 52 universe they were in the convergence but telos sent them to the 52 universe , the problem is that they should not really be here they should of been merged into there 52 versions like everyone else, and now mr oz says to Clark that he and his family are not what they think they r what does this mean? We see -Clark at +clarks grave he presses his hand to the grass and leaves a blue hand print much like that of dr manhanttans , I just read before watchmen with dr m in the end he goes some where the future, past, present , alternate universe who knows but we see him take water or some liquid in his cupped hands and creates life much like we have seen in green lantern with giant hands creating the universe I am starting to think that maybe dr m recreated the -52 universe when the + 52 was created or maybe it was the other way around or maybe he created both and that the beings from this said universe have dr m energy in there base being or maybe because both supermen where made by dr m and there energy is so alike it causes this reaction and this would explain the hand print. Some think that he is dr m but this would mean that Lois and Jon r maybe constructs and if that's not the case then wouldn't Jon have different powers. One of my problems with -52 Clark is that he said it's harder to do feats this bothered me because -52 Clark was very strong and such so why is he having problems with some feats he is not that much older than +52 Clark which means he should be stronger kinda like kingdom come superman unless there is something wrong with -Clark or the universe he is in.

Now with the death +52 superman.

I do not think he is dead I think it is something like the eletric blue supes I think that he has had so much power go thru him that it transformed him into energy but not in the same way as before we saw his "death" but we also saw 4 bolts of lightning come from his body and one strikes Lana and another with Lois we saw that Lana now has the knowledge that +Clark had,we also know that Lois will gain the powers of +Clark but that they r killing her. We also know that a Chinese kid gets his powers but do not know how yet if he is a experiment or from +Clarks death witch leaves us one more bolt of energy could this be Clark I have a feeling that these pieces will take time to heal and pull themselves back together to reform superman.

Please let me know what u guys think.

I do hope he comes back so that we can have the power couple back. SM/WW tag team could take down some epic new villains if the writer and team is creative enough. Who knows? Maybe lots of greek mythology with supes could be fun.

That's probably not going to happen even if he does return. I fully expect Diana and Steve back together before long, it was revealed in her Rebirth issue Diana is now aware her relationship with N52 Superman was motivated more by whatever forces were altering and manipulating her history, so if N52 Superman does come back, it'll be to a Diana who has reevaluated her feelings for him and realized they weren't sincere.

@zariusii: I know it was on the shattered mirror double page spread in the Rebirth issue but does that mean it was directly confirmed to be a result of whoever's been manipulating her history? Well that does make sense, Rucka makes no secret of his disdain for the Power Couple romance and apparently he and Jurgens share a mutual agreement on it. Jurgens will deal with it too in Action Comics next month albeit in a different way I imagine due to Pre Flashpoint Superman never developing a romantic relationship with his Wonder Woman outside of Action Comics #600.

@bigbadwolfx0:

Well. Here's what we know. Convergence possessed characters from timelines that were and timelines that never became.

Now were those characters actually saved from their extinguished timelines or were they just copies? Like Brainiac could've simply analyzed their dna's and built for himself cities of clones, with implanted memories.

After all Brainiac only said he had saved fragments from different timelines but he never said exactly how that was done. So we might be looking at simple copies.

Thanks to Pandora we know that Dr Manhattan previously to the New52 had broken the timeline into three different timelines to weaken them. Pandira's goal was to unite the timelines, and allow the birth of stronger versions of the previous one's. Hopefully powerful enough to fsce Manhattan. Although at the time she simply implied that someone had done it, we never got around to know who. And now we know because Johns as already came out and said it was Manhattan.

And now we got two clues that pre-Flashpoint Superman is not who he thinks he is. It's not just say so. We got Mr Oz (that I believe is Ozymandias) and we got the blue hand print left on the ground. Nor was the New52 Superman, who he thought he was.

So the New52 was clearly intended by Pandora to be something, but we were also told that Manhattan also did his thing. And if that wasn't enough Wally says it's ‘Them' not just 'He'. So Manhattan and Oz might not be the only players in this game.

But one thing we can't deny. The pre-Flashpoint timeline was already a manipulated timeline. So until we got a starting point, we can assume, that everything in the Modern Age Superman could've been Manhattan work.

But until DC comes out and actually explains everything, we can't deny any possibility at this point.

Has for New52 Superman death, I too don't believe he's dead dead, but more out of the picture for now. Until DC can properly test if Rebirth Superman can stand on his own two feet or if time will prove that he was a bad choice.

@heavenlydarkdragon said:

@bigbadwolfx0:

Well. Here's what we know. Convergence possessed characters from timelines that were and timelines that never became.

Now were those characters actually saved from their extinguished timelines or were they just copies? Like Brainiac could've simply analyzed their dna's and built for himself cities of clones, with implanted memories.

After all Brainiac only said he had saved fragments from different timelines but he never said exactly how that was done. So we might be looking at simple copies.

Thanks to Pandora we know that Dr Manhattan previously to the New52 had broken the timeline into three different timelines to weaken them. Pandira's goal was to unite the timelines, and allow the birth of stronger versions of the previous one's. Hopefully powerful enough to fsce Manhattan. Although at the time she simply implied that someone had done it, we never got around to know who. And now we know because Johns as already came out and said it was Manhattan.

And now we got two clues that pre-Flashpoint Superman is not who he thinks he is. It's not just say so. We got Mr Oz (that I believe is Ozymandias) and we got the blue hand print left on the ground. Nor was the New52 Superman, who he thought he was.

So the New52 was clearly intended by Pandora to be something, but we were also told that Manhattan also did his thing. And if that wasn't enough Wally says it's ‘Them' not just 'He'. So Manhattan and Oz might not be the only players in this game.

But one thing we can't deny. The pre-Flashpoint timeline was already a manipulated timeline. So until we got a starting point, we can assume, that everything in the Modern Age Superman could've been Manhattan work.

But until DC comes out and actually explains everything, we can't deny any possibility at this point.

Has for New52 Superman death, I too don't believe he's dead dead, but more out of the picture for now. Until DC can properly test if Rebirth Superman can stand on his own two feet or if time will prove that he was a bad choice.

So now I am trying to make some sense of this: Post-Crisis DC Universe was also manipulated? I am trying to make some sense of this whole "Watchmen" gig. Plus the handprints seem to remind me of Electric Blue Superman or Dr. Manhattan as well.

@diehard200904:

I understand your confusion. Who wouldn't be confused or have questions.

But one point was made clear, Manhattan and whoever else, manipulation of time stretches way before the New52. And in that regard Wally's claims are at the very least filled with holes.

After all seeing his timeline had also been manipulated. Then who is he to say what's real and what's not. And what's right and what's not. For all we now, the New52 is the original timeline, and Wally is part of a fake timeline or at least a weaker one.

Or maybe that was the way Manhattan stopped the New52 timeline from reaching it's full potential. By somehow messing with what Pandora did at the time she did it.

So as of now anything is possible. Including the probability that pre-Flashpoint Superman is not actually pre-Flashpoint Superman. But a copy made to replace one Superman for another weaker version.

Or maybe even the New52 timeline is also not the original timeline but a broken one. Tainted and twisted by Manhattan and who else might be involved.

I guess that in a way those are Johns chains. Maybe his idea was to simply bring back the pre-Flashpoint timeline and say the New52 was entirelly fake. But instead we're getting kinda of a battle of the timelines. Like if DC will now test the worth of the pre-Flashpoint characters in comparison to the one's of the New52.

And whoever wins, if a reboot is being planned for few years from now, only then they'll decide which path they'll choose.

Or they might as well choose to do a total clean slate and start from zero.

I love how you say "anything's possible", then in the same sentence try to pass as off theory Superdad is'nt Pre-Flashpoint as a "probability", like you expect it to be fact, and all out of your desire to see the Superman that FAILED reinstated as the "true one", which, let's face it, that's the one thing that in all "probability" is not going to happen and would undermine the hard work being put into establishing Superdad and his role as a more inspirational and morally just version of the character with a genuine legacy and history to ease people back into the transition from "EW 52" to the classic era. How that is in any way "weak" to you is a mystery to me.

@heavenlydarkdragon: @lvenger: @zariusii: @speckoh:

I am thinking that oz who we all think is ozy but I am not sold yet for somereason

We have yet to see time trapper and can some one tell me what happened to new 52 captain atom I did not follow I ask because he also would of left that same color energy.

Like I said before we saw dr make life just like it was done in the doc universe before

But why would he take ten years it makes no sense I could see ozy taking them or harnessing them for his own power I under stand watchmen entering the ring because of the dc vertigo merge but what power does the watchmen universe have over the dc

@zariusii:

And see you're love for me continues intact. If I was gay or Bi, I'd feel flattered.

Why do still think your opinion even matters to me is beyond me.

Also I find it sad, how you distort things just to have something to talk to me about.

I was simply pointing out that everything is a possibility. Even the possibility that your beloved Rebirth Superman is a fake. Yes he can be the genuine deal. But as of now no one can say if he is or if he isn't.

Has for DC they're gonna do what they usually do... Screw things up. I don't need to expect anything, they'll do it regardless.

@bigbadwolfx0:

Maybe because it would be too in our face. Manhattan, everyone was saying it was probably Manhattan before even Johns came out and confirmed it.

Maybe having Ozymandias would be too much. We could ask ourselves "Who's next? The Comedian? Rorschach?" and of course how he described himself and the name Mr Oz, it doesn't help to consider other possibilities.

Last time I saw New52 Captain Atom in his own comic, he was trying to be human, by creating a human body for himself and kinda split his mind. Also later on he faced future versions of himself, to defeat the most futuristic version of himself. Yeah. I know. A mess. No wonder the comic failed.

The very last time I see him was in Future's End. He was a prisoner in some meta-human prison on Mars if memory serves me right.

After that, nothing. DC simply discarded him.

As for the ten years I've also asked people that might be following Rebirth with more attention than me to explain how exactly does the ten years makes any sense. Most of the heroes got their entires lives, from childbirth things going a different path. Some even before they were born. Like Krypton history or Darkseid origin. All way before those 10 years.

But so far no one could explain it to the point where it actually makes sense. A explanation you read and you can think "Okay. I can see that happening. I understand."

So I can't help in those 10 years thing. Maybe @lvenger can or @squalleon. Other than these two if they can't explain it to you, no one can.

@bigbadwolfx0: He didnt took the "time" as a concept but rather he rewrote history as he saw fit to the point that ten years worth of important moments were lost.

Its like you had a playdo and as you changed its shape you cut some parts because you thought they arent useful.

@squalleon: yes I see ur point but at the end of flashpoint when Barry gives Bruce the letter they know each other but in the beginning of 52 they do not know each other that's where I got the lost ten years. It feels like whoever took the ten years did it to remove there history to make a new stronger connection with them.

That's what happened both in universe and in a meta-context. Someone changed the universe to make it stronger, but failed miserably :P

@diehard200904: @lvenger: @speckoh: @zariusii: @heavenlydarkdragon: @squalleon: lol

I am also thinking that maybe flashpoint will happen again it is called the flashpoint paradox for reason maybe now that Barry got all or some of his memories maybe he will do this again Because in paradox fashion he has to unless that timeline was erased and a new one was created with the 52.

Do u guys have any idea what's up with the comedians pin and why it shows up in the bat cave was that clue for him to follow or a warning of death . Plus I do not think he is one of three comedians at all I think that is one j from pre 52 ,crisis, and new 52 which would give u three jokers.

Has any else noticed that -52 supermans son Jon has normal kryptonian powers but does not have tactile tk or atleast not yet but the +52 Jon Kent who had the same parents as the new one but does not have same powers, why do these two with the lineage have completely different powers unless one of the parents is different but who ?

Kon being the first Kr+H hybrid had ttk then developed his true powers. Maybe because kon was made not born it worked different for him.

And guess who's back spoilers if u have not read the new action comics

The return of the eradicator who was created from the Dna of -52 supermans son. What do u guys think is going to happen with this are we going to see the same people like we did in death of superman , cyborg, eradicator, superboy,and super steel.

To be honest I have always liked kon el just as much as I liked superman with the black shirt and red S , the eradicator is a guy I thought that they could have always done so much more with....

I did not read the whole multiversity comics I did read a good amount of them tho I read the multiversity # 1 and 2 with the children of the heroes , thunder world, guide book , ultra comics. In guidebook we read that there are 7 unknown worlds but the 7th is the most mysterious of them all , I'm going to take a guess that the watchmen earth comes from here. And most likely the hand we see holding the universe that looks just like dr Manhattan we also find out that all the lil Gotham jl members are some sort android or cyborgs and none knew this they truly thought they were real but they to not durable at all maybe they were just a experiment or could some of the others of the multi be machines also, we know that + 52 supes was not because of his death ,-52 supes is not either we saw his son being born unless they were all machines and plus since he has been here is skin or internals would of been damaged but bowline lil Gothams dick Grayson batman and other jl members. We also see something called the hemorrhage a giant beast attacking the multiverse that looks a lot like the reapers maybe, and at the end of guidebook we see what looks like the

Hand of doc m holding the universe talking to the fallen heroes / machines of lil Gotham and all of the day them say empty is thy hand and doc m commands them to (get up , reset you have died before and u will die many times more before I am done with you see my hand is empty)

Oh and some one was talking about a blue superman that's captain Allen Adam who is a copy of doc m with his quantum senses given to him by being to close to the unstable element u-235