@opis34: True. I'll settle for just physically strongest then. His powers are pretty straightforward and simple compared to characters like MMH so he should (in my opinion) always have the physical advantage. The only acception for me is that Captain Marvel (Shazam) should be his physical equal just because of his god based powers. He is also one of my favorite characters so I'm a little biased.

@sodamyat: Alright whatever see ya. Oh also before you go just to let you know. All discussions on the website are silly I mean we are discussing comic book characters.

Superman is considered the most powerful, because he is a symbol of hope etc. but really there are a few who are more powerful than him, like Martian Manhunter, Shazam (Captain Marvel), Captain Atom.

people saying that Helspont said superman is the most powerful on earth are forgetting that Captain Atom had exiled himself to The Moon, Shazam was not around yet, and Martian Manhunter lost his battle because against Hellespont's agent because she happened to have a flame weapon.

But Martian Manhunter is weak to fire, and Superman has heat vision and now his super solar flare power.

@jimishim12:

Lolz.

My internet was out, so I had a weekend in which to mull over this. It should go without saying that this is all just my opinion, and based on an incomplete and somewhat google-searched knowledge of modern continuum, thus making me automatically correct in every way.

FEAR MY WORD-COUNT. IT IS OMNIPOTENT.

The thing is, with Superman’s defined powers, even in the new continuity, I can explain why he should beat pretty much anyone. He’s super-intelligent, and has super-speed, super-strength, invulnerable, supernova face-lasers, antigravity, super-breath, and that’s not even an exhaustive list of his abilities. And he has access to the scientific knowledge and technology of the most advanced race that ever existed.

With all his powers, he should beat anyone not a super-genius or omnipotent pretty much by default. Even if I couldn’t think of a way he could win, he could. The only thing to ask is how.

PHANTOM STRANGER is (apparently) not really a being, or of earth. He might not be divine, but he’s certainly a cosmic element of the universe, with unknown origins, neither dead nor alive, (he's basically like gravity, apparently) and he’s powerless to act meaningfully on earth. So he fails the criteria.

And if he does have a loci of consciousness or personhood at all? He’s a phantom, right? Phantom Zone Projector.

SWAMP THING is also not really an earth being. He’s a life-elemental that exists anywhere there is plant-life. But even so:

Even if Supes couldn’t physically best him, there’s a dozen other ways he can defeat Swamp Thing. He can just phantom zone project the body containing ST’s consciousness, or create plant-life hunting Von Neumanns, or some other bit of super-science. He has access to Kryptonian level technology, and he’s super-intelligent. If there’s a way, he can find it. And Swamp Thing can’t stop him, because he’s a plant. A plant, I tells ya!

MARTIAN MANHUNTER:

Martians should be inferior to Kryptonians by sheer default (for one thing, if they are yellow-sun kryptonian level, why are they dead? For another thing, screw martians, kryptonians are boss); I understand MMH is special, but here’s my reasoning why it still doesn’t make sense to me (obviously canon is whatever writers say, but I can still throw fruit at it!):

Martian Manhunter's body can be torn apart by his own whims, there’s no way it can do that and hold up against a dimension-busting Superman punch. If he tried to go durable, he should be atomised in a single punch. Punching objects is Superman's A game. You don't try to beat him at it. You just try to get out of the way.

He cannot be both a shape-changer and invulnerable. It’s self-contradictory.

Without that, it’d be MMH’s mind trying to out-punch Superman’s punch, which is just… ‘Psions’ don’t have mass. They’re trying to play at a game that they’re naturally unsuited for. He would have to have basically infinite levels of psionic power to try and block Superman’s punch.

Even if Martian Manhunter can ‘density shift’ himself with additional mass with some kind of psychic whatever (not something I’ve seen but just on the chance that’s the argument), where is that mass even coming from? How does it even work? Why can’t he do it to other objects? Can he grow? This should be an ability all martians have right? How do they pull it back apart? Is MMH like equivalent-of-Omega-Beam-strong psychic? Could they density shift into black hole density and destroy the universe, and then undensity after? That would be hard to beat, but you can see why it’d be a problem on a much larger scale than just Supes. (And hey, I could still argue a win for him. Believe it. Even if Supes doesn’t barrier bust and escape, or do something awesome like throwing the black hole out of the universe, phantom zone technology is like Bizarro Deus Ex Machina, it puts gods in the box.)

But the only thing that makes sense to me, and is borne out how I’ve seen him use is, is that he has a set biological mass like a normal species, but he can phase it away to phase-place (to arguable degree), not add mass and density to it.

And if he did, and even if Superman couldn’t evaporate him with a punch; Superman could just HV him.

See, the thing is Martian powers are all exactly the opposite of invulnerability and strength.

Intangibility and shape-shifting is about hiding, disguise and avoiding being hit. They’re all keep away abilities, and they won’t even work because Superman shoots fire from his eyes. MMH’s only real advantage that I can see in current canon, is psychic ability and evasion.

His disadvantage is everything else.

MM's one real tactic is to try and brain-blast Superman while intangible. He would have to be able to anticipate him at super-speed, and overwhelm him, before succumbing to supernova levels of flame, or Superman getting back out of range.

Superman has super-speed. He shoots fire from his eyes. He’s super-intelligent. That’s at least one more power than he even needs, but yet he has more.

With these powers, the only question is really ‘does Supes blitz him instantly, or does he zip off to prep?’ And with super-speed HV, I’m leaning towards ‘instant blitz’.

And that’s assuming he doesn't just pull out some good old-fashioned Superman-science like:

SM: ‘Well, as you know, your psychic abilities manifest as material sub-nucleonic quark waves in the brain, so it was a simple matter to use super-vibrationsto reverse the psychic waves, and put your powers out of commission!’

MMH: “It’s true! And it’sgiven me a splitting headache. Can nothing stop this godly god-man? He must be the most powerful being on earth!”

Besides, which, even if MMH could zap Superman with psychic powers, that wouldn’t make him more powerful, that’d just be Superman with yet another glass-jaw Achilles Heel.

There’s really nothing MMH has that would out-perform Superman. Give me a MMH feat, and I bet I can tell you how Superman can equal or better it. Even a psychic one. Superman can duplicate any MMH psychic feat with technology.

In the end, that’s the crunch. Super-speed. Super-strength. Super-intelligence. Your argument is invalid. Always invalid! :P

Of this list, only ZATANNA and CONSTANTINE have an obvious chance but only because they have access to absolutely arbitrary magic, and you can pull anything out of your butt that doesn’t give Supes any chance at all; ancient anti-kryptonian death spell/talisman? Why not?!

But if Superman has any warning, then they’re screwed. He can obliterate at time-frozen speeds, or run away to the phantom dimension or something, to either out-live them, or come back and ambush them at a time of his choosing.

But if we give them arbitrary Superman-kill magic, Superman no protection and no warning then yeah, he’s toast. Might as well make kryptonite spontaneously generate in his heart.

But again, depending on what's Deus Ex Litera'd, it might not actually make them more powerful. Just suited to kill Superman. After all, Superman can be killed by a kryptonite rock, if it’s lucky.

They’re only a threat because magic is given as a particular vulnerability. And it’s freaking magic. With that as a premise, worms could rule the earth.

(Seriously, Superman needs to be buffed against stuff like this, because he’s such a visible, obvious target for magical assassination.)

SUPERMAN

What’s constantly overlooked with the approach to Supes is that - when allowed to do so - Superman can do anything. He’s so strong, he unassistedly breaks the very laws of reality. He’s a reality-breaking dimension-busting super-powered super-genius with super-science. He’s got everything he would ever need.

He’s Hulk, Thor, Heracles, Achilles, Flash, Batman and Lex Luthor rolled up into one kryptonian ball of doomfinity. He duels metauniversal mega-gods on a regular basis. He can even beat omnipotents like Mr. Mxyzptlk, given the chance. Like, actually kill him, with the Phantom Zone Projector. Any one of his broad-spectrum super-powers makes him a power-house, all together, and he’s like the omni-god of the League (which is why he shouldn’t even be on it, long-term).

He basically is a god, a lot of gods, in terms of power. In fact it’s almost meaningless, because Superman just doesn’t play by (almost) anyone else’s rules. He’s kind of a dick to the rules of reality.

Just because it’s impossible, doesn’t mean Superman can’t do it.

His character has spent his entire career doing the impossible. Present him with an impossible task, and 99% of the time it’s a challenge, it’s not going to stop him.

Superman is someone that sensibly should be able to bust the League, the continent they’re standing on, the twelve star systems directly behind it; and still have time for coffee with Lois. (Not saying that he would, but that he’s able. I think of the Justice League as being replacement Superman level. They have an equal chance of bringing him down, together, and plot-wise, probably always should succeed.)

But here’s the most important thing. He’s Superman. His defining trait is being the best (in any sense relevant or desirable, doesn’t matter if it’s because powers or not; it’s not about the justification, it’s about the goal).

That’s what Superman exists for. To be the guy. The arch-superhero. Making Superman just a superhero, nullifies an extraordinary amount of his relevance. It's not like his powers are in themselves unusual, they're basically just 'what a human can do, but super!'; they're only unusual by being extraordinarily powerful (or he’s extraordinarily, impossibly competent with them), so that he can use them in (wacky, bizarre, mind-bending) ways no-one else can; and the significance for his character, is that, in the fullness of his role, his power levels or all-round badassery saddle him with being or feeling ultimately responsible for earth's fate, so long as he's protecting it.

We shouldn’t be arguing if Superman is the best, he just should be, by an incontestable margin of competency.

If he’s not the best, then he isn’t Superman, and what is he even doing here? I didn’t want the story of some random powerhouse being one of the superheroes, I wanted the Superman.

When people are in trouble, they call the Justice League! When the Justice League are in trouble, they call Superman! (And vice versa.)

“This looks like a job for… someone roughly equivalent to or better than Superman!”

Doesn’t quite have the same ring, does it?

CPT. MARVEL is an interesting one. I love the kid, and I think there’s a great potential for a relationship there; but Superman’s powers increase, and his by definition of ‘maximum potential’ remain static. It’s impossible for them to be equal for any real length of time.

One thing is that Cpt. Marvel doesn’t actually have super-speed. He’s as ‘fast as Mercury’, but that is a ‘fleet of foot’ power. Superman’s super-speed isn’t specific, it occurs on all levels, including his mental processing. Cpt. Marvel might be super-fleet, but it’s not quite the same concept.

Give the kid some of his own powers, like bolts of Zeus lightning or something. You can still make him a ‘Superman stopper’ and even ‘Superman fighter’, without making him another leech.

He can stand up to Supes, but he can’t put Superman down.

And stop power-cloning Supes, sheesh. No wonder he can’t hold his spot, everyone just clones off him, riding on his power levels, and then forgets he has super-intelligence and science.

That’s the short of it, the following was me unintentionally get on a roll with speculation and stuff and things, feel free to feel like a terrible person if you don’t read it word for word:

I should note, being blessed by gods, doesn’t necessarily make him Supes level, or even a peer of those gods. Wonder Woman is also blessed by the gods, and (in current continuity) fathered by Zeus, and by all rights she should be far out-classed by Supes.

-

And while we’re on the subject: I love that people are trying to make ‘pointy things’ WW’s specific vulnerability. Like it doesn’t describe 95% of all weapons ever invented. They don’t realise that her being vulnerable is a good thing. Women are appealing when they’re vulnerable, in a way that men aren’t. It’s a super-easy way to invest readers, particularly male readers, but also women who don’t fall into a hair-tearing rage that WW ever made a man happy. Romance is funny like that. Both men and women can enjoy it.

Her invulnerable bracers are perfect because they let her be invulnerable or vulnerable as story drama requires. A much better plot device than kryptonite.

She’s not a man, she can’t be made appealing the same way, except to fringe psychotics who only want precisely that. To make her appealing you gotta play on her femininity. It’s why characters like TV’s Starfire are so popular, because she was the Superman of the group, but she was still adorable and girly, not a pretentious masculinisation, like they eventually did with M’gann in YJ (who was adorable, then quickly became shaky, and then eventually unbearably hateable, all because of the mal-odious character direction; though she was just the tip of the ice-berg), and basically every other chick on that show (the dudes were hard-core pussies, for srs).

It’s why She-Hulk, as I’ve seen others mention, is more easily appealing than WW. She’s an absolute mountain-crushing beast, but she’s also a big green babe who hankers after men, instead of trying to grind them underfoot in unbridled femizonian psychosis. She acts like a woman, not a marble statue with a hang-up.

But you’ve got to give her a way better love interest than Steve Trevor. But not Superman (no offense). And not Batman because Catwoman. Hell. Or maybe Steve Trevor just needs to be upgraded into a proper Punisher level badass, with guns and gadgets.

But if I started on a list of what needs to be done about WW I’d be here all week. Chick needs a full on overhaul with a callous disregard for feminism. A great bust compensates for only so much, even on the screen.

-

Anyway, back to Cap. The way I generally think of it is, Cpt. Marvel is an earth demi-god. Supes is a space demi-god, with unlimited growth potential.

I think Marvel’s god blessings do seem to be superior to WW’s though. He gets invulnerability after all, and his physique can probably be taken as indicative. But he doesn’t augment them with magical equipment. (Although why not? Scrolls of Solomon? Djinni jars? Magical armour and hammer? That’d be cool, right? Wouldn’t it be awesome to have Cpt. Marvel as a super-hero Thor/Hephaestus? Thorphaestus? He can be with magic, like Supes is with science. It doesn’t even matter that he’s not super-intelligent, because it’s magic, you don’t have to explain swip!

I know it’s way out of Marvel’s usual aesthetic, but wouldn’t it be fun to try?)

I’d say Marvel actually makes an obvious male equivalent for Wonder Woman. His power set is defined almost exactly the same. That’d also stop them from having to drag Supes down all the time for Equality, with all the WW hang-ups. It’s not just Batman. Everyone’s trying to hitch-hike and debase Superman, and DC is enabling it, the cads!

I don’t actually mind if they vaguely make Supes and Marvel them same physical tier at least for a main stretch of the continuity, maybe like how a teen and his dad are in the same ‘human tier’; just because, hey, Supes might want a sparring partner some time. Or maybe someone to play superhero baseball with. And Supes is dangerous primarily through his intellect (it’s how he uses his vanilla super-powers that really sets him apart), but asides from Superman’s #1 status, I’d just like a little more distinction for Cpt. Marvel.

I kind of like to think that Supes is like an older, more experienced brother/uncle, since BB is a 10 year old, anyhow.

Maybe they could make Marvel’s powers increase with BB’s age, but I think they’d have to change the nature of the spell. It would be a pretty cool way to have Black Adam being a mega-unstoppable-badass, being 5000 years old, and Marvel has to display hard-core punch-up-manship, because he’s just a 10 year old kid! How could he possibly win?!

Just a thought.

(I’ve only read a bunch of New52 “Shazam”, so I’m really not an expert on his classic stories, but I just hate these battles where it’s Good Guy vs Evil Twin, I mean, if they have the exact same powers, and nothing else, it’s not even a contest, the good guy only has to be 0.0001% better that day, and he wins.

Like that Superman and Cpt Marvel vs Black Adam. Black Adam was just completely out-gunned, and he didn’t do nearly enough to compensate for it.

If he had blown up a few cities or blackmailed with them, to stop Supes and Marvel from attacking him, he could have been a much better threat.)

-

But another way we can go is that initially, Cpt. Marvel is much, much stronger than Superman, and can Hulk slam him into the planet with a big goofy smile. But Superman still has super-speed and experience, plus invulnerable, so Supes can still handle it, and with adult-like aplomb.

It’s really the kind of thing that depends on the quality of writing as to whether it’s a sell. It’s actually an idea I’d be pretty excited to see.

(About super-speed. He doesn’t need to move as fast, to see fast enough, so he doesn’t have to be a punching bag as long as Superman isn’t going at ‘frozen-time’ speed (and heck, you can give Marvel just a weird supernatural power to keep him in the game, like some sort of limited time-power). Even humans can see as fast as light.

Heck, give him Oracle powers, so he can anticipate attacks like a Jedi or something. Combined with uber Zeus strength, it could give him a pretty top-tier showing. It means that even without super-speed, he can still fight against super-speed.

This gives a nice ‘overlap’ of strength levels for Superman and Cpt. Marvel to have ambiguous physical peerage for a time; plus a nice shock value entrance and respect for Cpt. Marvel as a powerhulk.

It’d be a little different, but even with “OP strength” Cpt. Marvel we could still have Superdad and Marvelkid, if we wanted it.

-

I mean, this is all just speculation, I’m totally open to options.

But we should just get completely away from the idea that anyone is Supes’ equal. He’s needs to be defined as in a class by himself, not some kind of superhero finish line.

‘For the Man who has Everything’ was basically an ideal showing in a Superman episode. Everyone is relevant to the story, but Superman is still Superman.

-

I would have to read up on Cpt. Marvel probably a lot more though, before I’d be really certain of what direction I would take him. I don’t want to screw over his superhero appeal.

Which is why I suggest additional powers. Magic scrolls, and things. Thor has Mjolnir and lightning, for example, so he can crush Hulk like a boss. Imagine a Thor’d up magic-throwing Cpt. Marvel vs Zeus. That’d be bad-assness.

It's always fun reading your posts,and you get the characters and their powers well.thats why I asked you to analyze and think of your own way that superboys powers would and should work.

good post

Superman is not the most powerful being on Earth, that’s for sure. Maybe somewhere in the first 10 most powerful beings, but not the number one.

Though I guess you can raise some argument that speaking about his physical abilities, he’s number one – “Superman is the most strongest being on Earth”, “Superman is the most invulnerable being on Earth”, etc. Even then there are plenty of characters who are on his level in those categories – Shazam, Wonder Woman, MMH, possibly Supergirl, ….

So all in all I think it would be better to say that Superman is one of the most powerful beings on Earth.

It's just a marketing gag

Not really, Superman moveset enables him to learn any superpower given the factors of him just simply tapping into sources of the universe or willing it. I heard he learned magic once from a 5d imp this way.

@jimishim12: I know you can't see it but I'm face palming right now.

@stephens2177:

Appreciate the compliment. Without knowing any more specifics about Superboy, I can't really think of anything else on the psionic kryptonian front.

@tikhunt said:

I did think about that, but that’s not… really how wisdom works.

God gave Solomon the wisdom to rule his people, not to fight speedsters. Neither super-wisdom or super-intelligence are ‘super-speed’ attributes. I mean, even if wisdom did work that way, that still leaves striking speed (mental would account for reflexes come to think of it). I just said ‘mental processes’ to emphasise how omnipresently the power worked. It's like Force Speed. Funnily enough.

Honestly, the best source I could think of for him getting ‘super-speed’ power, would be from Zeus. Because Zeus killed the titan Chronos, titan of time itself. But I still can't see that as aboveboard, since speed’s not defined as a Zeus power either, certainly it's not indicated in the spell (or else, why Mercury?). I’d say Zeus’ power is the kind that makes it redundant. And being a titan of time doesn't necessarily make Chronos some kind of speedster either. Space-time is made up of time too.

That’s the issue. Unless Marvel’s been given literal super-speed as a power, he doesn't have it. And 'mythologically' speaking, super-speed isn't a Cpt. Marvel thing. Cpt. Marvel is pretty much on the same level and aesthetic as Thor. Superhuman speed/reflexes isn't in the same class as the power of super-speed. And if he was arbitrarily given it, it would be the same old problem of other heroes just obnoxiously cloning Superman powers, to be able to do in or rival Superman.

Super-speed is a pretty unique invention to Superman and Flash. Mythological gods never had to do science or solve problems or fight duels with nanosecond timing.

I still think a possible thing to angle (very speculatively) for is for Marvel to be mystically greater than Supes in the attributes he does have. Like he can out-run Supes, or out-lift Supes, etc (ignoring growth factor), but Superman still has overall superiority. Kind of like 31st century Ultraboy. It's not like Supes has to beat Cpt. Marvel into the ground just because.

But other than that, my best take on it is that Captain Marvel is generally Superman’s strength rival, like Flash is his speed rival.

If Cpt. Marvel had like a scroll of alacrity or something, that might work. I think he would have the wisdom to prep stuff like that if he could. He could have like a magical utility belt, or a scroll case strap thingy, or have it in his mystic brain library.

It still risks being an obnoxious ‘because Superman’ gadget, but there’s at least some natural logic behind it. I would probably forgo obvious duplications like that, personally. Makes it messy.

----------

EDIT: I gave it some more thought. Physical strength could actually account for a great deal of natural physical speed (striking, etc), though not reflexes and thought process (which involves much the same thing). Superman does seem to be a foot-race speedster primarily for his gravity-ripping muscles. Though I would suggest Marvel has 'speed of Mercury' to compensate for his lack of similar reality-busting.

My other idea is that Marvel could, due to being 'strong through magic', attain a level higher than Superman far more effortlessly, but that Superman can exceed Marvel's 'maxed strength' through determination and effort. I kind of like that dynamic. Especially because their psychology of 'kid vs adult' naturally sympathises with these demands.

I mean, think about it. You can have Cpt. Marvel beat the stuffing out of Superman (but I demand sub-punking levels!) with little apparent effort, and look awesome. But at any time, you could have Superman get pissed off and let loose, and then pound the absolute Goku out of him.

(I've also always been a fan of the Superman that increases his base level strength etc by training them. Which is part of why he has such incredible prowess, because he's been exercising and pushing himself in a variety of ways since child-hood, fighting villains his whole life, and controlling his incredible strength around ordinary folk as Clark Kent.)

I think I like the sound of this option best.

I do like 'Strongest There Is' Superman at all times, but it also gives a reason he only steps in if others, like Cpt. Marvel, can't handle it. Gives a reason for Supes not to be the forefront or the strongman of every single situation that you have Cpt. Marvel or other powerhulks there. Keeps a lot of choices open, and in a way, they both can make a claim for mightiest person (fanwoots), (at least for however long this status quo is maintained), while not really taking anything away from Supes. It'd be a far superior dynamic between the two guys I think. It has my immediate vote.

@tikhunt:

Well it gives him super intelligence which includes super thought processing, plus add in the Power of Zeus at in amps every other one of his abilities an unknown amount so I think there's plenty of ways to show him having those super reactions etc. without having to write in a new power.)

Wisdom of Solomon gives him scholarly knowledge, access to all books ever written, kind of thing. It's not a speed or intelligence power. Super-intelligence doesn't give you super-thought-processing, that's still a speed power. Flash has it, and he's not super-intelligent. It skips the need for super-intelligence or speed. It's like intuitive genius.

Ah! You do have a point about the Zeus power, which is an ambiguous uber amp, and it would look awesome to see him go full on Zeus lightning to amp his strength in any situation. You're right, and I think that would allow for amping to match Superman. But I would channel that Zeus power 'phenomenal cosmic power' rather than anything directly Herculean, ripping out cosmic Zeus storms, and going full on electric DBZ.

I can accept physical contest on those terms. I kind of like 'Superman vs all-the-gods'. It wouldn't be polite for him to just stomp WW's pantheon. *cough*

(Not to mention Supes is physically invulnerable (or 'super-invulnerable' according to some lists), so just amping strength wouldn't give much advantage. In the ‘actual mythology’ Heracles still couldn’t hurt invulnerable giants. Really, Zeus bolts, reality-warping magic and presumably reality-warping kryptonian strength should be the only things potent enough to hurt Supes meaningfully. But that's all up for speculation, since DC has its own mythology.)

And it skips a lot of problems that current Superman-level strength would ordinarily give. Superman’s currently a limitless strength reality buster. CM shouldn’t be made that directly strong. For logical god-rules vs rule-breaking reasons. But mostly just because it would annoy me generally, for CM to have another defining Superman special. And if Superman keeps his unique strength peak, then it easily explains ‘Superman Only’ jobs. That’s the purpose of giving Cpt. Marvel distinction in powers, to wean him off Superman Role Contender. I know you probably don’t like it for precisely that reason, but for precisely that reason it’s the way it’s gotta be. Something’s gotta give, and it’s not Supes.

And you know what? Marvel's got weird lightning power, and if it's good enough for Flash, I'll accept it for Marvel. Zeus power fills in for undefined super-speed.

I'm not sure why 'Speed of Mercury' would then be a thing, but screw it, I'll cut him some slack. Super-flight speed. Okay, I'm convinced. He gets the broad spectrum.

Besides, it's not that important. It's not about what he has now, but how it shouldbe.

Because he's ridiculously out-classed by Superman right now, in terms of strength. What's really important here is that Superman's better than him. :D

(I think that Shazam should be given a pass though as he was one of the earliest to clone Superman and as is widely known had flight first which Superman copied off of him. Not only that but Shazam has always ever since his introduction to the DCU been considered Superman's only true equal in terms of heroes being his physical match.)

No. No superheroclones or parasites. Marvel could only get away with it in the beginning because he was in his own book. Now he’s in Superman’s universe. He's an exact duplicate of the Superman fantasy, but the Superman fantasy is about being the best. It's a cosmic contradiction. And of the two, only Superman is actually Superman, and has the attributes and mythological status to support it. The whole point of this is get him off Superman’s back, and approach it from a different angle. Making exceptions makes the exercise pointless. No one is Superman’s equal, at all, ever, in everness. It’s not even possible. Superman’s destined to out-grow everyone no matter what. If they’re equal now, then sooner or later, Superman will be more powerful. Just rip that band-aid off.

If Cpt. Marvel becomes Lord Marvel or something like that, then it’s a different gig, but until then, he needs to step off, foo.

(And Superman got flight because of Fleischer's 40s animation, but I doubt anyone cares who’s the better flyer.)

Superman is Neo. There can only be one.

@tikhunt:

Hah! Okay, I think we're pretty much on the same level. I think Mystic Warrior Cpt. Marvel is perfect, and exactly the area in which he would dominate. It doesn't even matter how powerful Superman gets, he would never be as suited for it as Cpt. Marvel. That's the job for Marvel. Superman is more the guy you call for say, alien invaders, or more scientifically based threats.

And he can be as much of a Superman type as he likes, and as much of a bad-ass as he likes in his book. That's the point of making him distinct, so that they're not holding each other back.

But I really should catch up on Cpt. Marvel, because I suspect I'm missing a fair bit. I have a hard time of thinking of him as a Superman type, because he's a kid inside, placing that kind of psychological demand on him to overcome the way Superman does, seems damaging to me. But, I need to read the stories first. Maybe he acts more like a Wise Man, in his comics.

I didn't literally mean like a DBZ power-up, standing there squeezing out an extra power level. I was thinking more like an indication of exertion. When they lock fingers and wrestle in the sky, the amount of electricity bolting off from him, and growing more intense, and potentially obliterally landscape, would be a visually sexy way to indicate the absolute power going down in the fight without just having them punch each other like normal people. It'd be like seeing veins pop out.

I understand it might not be an easy sell, since it's deliberately altering his visual aesthetic to magic and brawn, rather than magic enhancing brawn; and also people will be attached to Marvel as he is now. I suspect how it goes is like this:

I want Superman to be a physical bad-ass in comparison, so I want to emphasise that Cpt. Marvel is primarily a threat through lightning, and up-play that to world-blastingly obvious degrees.

Others want Cpt. Marvel to be a physical bad-ass in comparison, so they want to downplay the lightning so that it's merely the scientific reason his punches hurt, but in all other ways, he's just punching the crap out of him.

But I think other than possibly that bit of nit-picking and tugging back and forth, we're on the same page.

@supermudz: Have you read any of his New 52 appearances?

@tikhunt:

I read a bunch of them up to the 'Superman kills Doctor Light' bit, ages ago. It's hard to recall. Wasn't really a fan of his new personality.

Are you going to tell me that he pretty much is already that way? Because I've been getting a suspicion. Break it to me gently.

NO

@supermudz: I haven't read every appearance of his in the New 52 but I've picked up an issue here or there and seen a lot of what he does through scans etc.. and at the moment and "SPOILERS" He is much more magically driven, he shoots lightning from his hands, he uses his lightning bolt to turn a group of his friends into weaker versions of himself, he even uses it to supercharge a tiger which ends up weakening Shazam as he did the magic wrong so he is much more magical now than he used to be.

Yes, he can melt brains in yoctoseconds

I hate you all.

And yet, I'm totally chuffed they're going that way, leaving me emotionally conflicted and tormented inside.

I reconcile this by remembering he has the help of numerous sci-fi gadgets and technology.

With the aid he has, it might be possible, which keeps my suspension of disbelief intact.

@superguy1591: he is not up there, adult bart, barry, wally, hal, kyle, spectre, fate, cap atom, mmh, reverse flash, zolomon, constantine, and shazam are all more powerful just to name a few.

@supermudz

anyone who thinks supes is even the most powerful justice league member is lacking in comic knowledge

@opis34

no writer has ever said that and anyone who tells you that knows absolutely nothing about comics

@heavenlydarkdragon

you need to stop watching screw attack

@jimishim12keep looking

@sanohibiki

he might not even crack top 20

@xdoomguyx: yet again not true. Mmh held both supes and ww in a headlock.

Black Adam is stronger

Spectre can lift planets

All this thread told me is that supes needs a power boost and maybe some more reality warping powers.

Lol true.

Honestly, it depends on the writer. So many inconsistencies and fluctuations with these stories, it's not even funny. At times, he can single-handedly beat a villain the other Leaguers couldn't stop while at other times, he is only able to beat them WITH the League. And I don't think every writer is interested in conveying the notion of Superman holding back...

@kbroskywalker: I wasn't saying that Superman is stronger than Mmh. I was just saying that in my opinion he should be. I think physical strength should always be Superman's advantage except when he's fighting people like Captain Marvel and since he's powered by gods.

lol, isn't that just MMH's thoughts? Thinking and being are two different things.

Heck everyone thinks they have a chance on Superman until they find out otherwise.

Are we all forgetting Superman holds back?

The answer is yes, or at least it should be.

@unbreakable_fs4 said:

Nope.

While in an illusion, Despero reveals that MMH is more powerful than Superman in Justice League of America #9.

He's probably outclassed in many ways by certain telekinetics, magicians, random aliens visiting. However the specific combinations of his abilities, mental and physical, can make him very difficult to handle for people that are more 1-trick ponies in their power, whatever its levels. I'd tend to agree that he is (in theory/canon) one of the most dangerous people to get into a fight or even a game of spy v. spy with. But he tends to be depowered, disadvantaged, blind-sided or just super-dumb whenever writers think it appropriate.

not even close.

He's easily in the top 5.

Other than Martian Manhunter and Captain Atom there isn't any that I'd say are definitely more powerful. So he's most likely top 3.

According to DC Comics he is, but what do they know.

..... did you read @supermudz propositions ?

I won't go into the debate but no one has defined "powerful" ! Everyone assumes "powerfull" as the beinb with the most physical strength. You also got to bare in mind that Superman has been defeated and manipulated by multiple times by Ra's Al Ghul, Hush, Batman or Lex Luthor.

@jb681131: It has nothing to do with sheer physical power. Martian Manhunter is the most versatile superhero period. He's also plenty more powerful than Clark in sheer raw power. Not to mention his physical capabilities are on par with Clark's.

Captain Atom is also plenty more versatile and exists on a higher form of life. His physical body doesn't contain limitations like ours or Superman's does. He views time and reality as objects and can control and manipulate space and molecules. Hes far more powerful.

Superman's raw power, strength, speed and versatility are what put him above the rest but these 2 are above him in most ways imaginable save for raw physical strength and speed.

Nah, Flash would kick his ass.

If Superman is not all that powerful I wonder why people make a big deal about him being too strong to be interesting?

People who do that don't read Superman comics.

It's that simple.

There's no such thing as being too strong to be interesting, just bad writers.

Not to mention that Superman isn't even strong compared to the likes of the Flash, many lanterns, the manhunter, gog, etc....