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    Superman

    Character » Superman appears in 18885 issues.

    Sent to Earth as an infant from the dying planet Krypton, Kal-El was adopted by the loving Kent family and raised in America's heartland as Clark Kent. Using his immense solar-fueled powers, he became Superman to defend mankind against all manner of threats while championing truth, justice, and the American way!

    'American Alien' Discussion

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    nickzambuto

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    This miniseries written by Max Landis, currently on its second (of 7 planned) issue, has been getting a lot of high praise, but oddly enough I haven't seen any threads about it on the Superman page yet.

    This reimagining of Clark Kent's backstory takes a few interesting turns with the character. Clark is made to seem a lot more 'realistic' and 'relatable', certain decisions he makes might not be enjoyed by the more old fashioned Superman fans who are loyal to the boyscout persona, although as an original story and different version of the Superman mythos, I find the fresh take to be interesting.

    For example, in issue 2, a 17-year old Clark Kent is shown out in the fields, drinking beer with his friends, when a police officer shows up. Obviously being 17 years old would mean they are underage drinking, and it is at this point, that Superman, the Man of Tomorrow, paragon of hope, defender of truth and justice and the most righteous hero the world has ever seen, utters these brilliant words;

    No Caption Provided

    Superman has just exclaimed, "Hide the beer."

    With a few other creative choices the writer has made in this book, I'm surprised American Alien hasn't been getting more attention. I expected it to be quite controversial. In the same scene, Clark's friends ask him if he uses his X-Ray vision to peek underneath people's clothes. Clark claims that he used to, but not anymore, citing not his moral high ground and maturity as the reason he stopped, but because clothing squishes people's bodies and makes them look weird.

    Not the first time this question has been brought up in the Superman mythos, and I find the response to be very fresh. He's right, people would look really weird with their clothes pressing against them, I never thought of that before! Although the implication seems to be that Clark wouldn't mind peeking at girls if not for this problem, hmm...

    Although still possessing a good heart, Clark is definitely a much more realistic adolescent in these first two stories than I've ever seen him before. He's also pretty weak, capable of being injured and potentially killed by mere bullets. Personally I find that pretty bad, not to sound shallow, but in my mind Superman's power should reflect his morals. His will to do good should be matched by how much good he can really do, that's what makes him the best hero there is. I don't want a weak Superman!

    Although that aside (maybe he'll get stronger, this is only the second issue) the writing and tone of these first two issues is excellent. Superman fans should give this book a read, it seems like Landis is giving us a really slow burn and building up to The Man of Tomorrow that we all know and love. The more realistic, flawed interpretation of Clark might turn off some classic fans, but just remember this is a reimagining of the character, meant to give us something fresh. Issue 1 was Clark as a child and issue 2 was Clark as a teen, so by the end we should see Superman as the paragon of justice that we recognize, and I'm looking forward to Landis' interpretation of that.

    Also, Doomsday hype

    No Caption Provided

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    HeavenlyDarkDragon

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    Have you done a search in the forum?

    There's been threads about American Alien before it started, and in every issue I've been posting reviews of each issue.

    So... it's been done.

    Only no general discussion, because each issue has been so different, that I believe people prefer to examine each issue independently.

    It may be that a general discussion thread may pick up, or it may not. Time will tell.

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    Jonny_Anonymous

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    Anybody read this week's issue?

    Poor Deathstroke lol

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    UltimateSMfan

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    Denko069

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    #5  Edited By Denko069

    @ultimatesmfan: Yeah, it was awesome. "You ruin Broosh Wayne party! Nice coshtoom! You go. *flick* *Deathstroke flying* ::D :D Love this issue. Also, did he sleep with Barbara Gordon? :D

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    Jonny_Anonymous

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    Denko069

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    Squalleon

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    So I was pleasantly surprised by issue 3.
    Although I still believe it is very poor on actually story and I didn't find it that compelling, it doesn't delve deep enough to find it worth it, so it isn't rich in any particular area. It had some moments, but I don't know, it is up to this point a poor man's For all seasons. Not bad, but neither groundbreaking as Landis would like to believe.

    That Deathstroke moment fall flat with me. It was a waste of two pages and one of the worsts cameos.

    As for the Mxyzptlk part. Its an almost direct quote of Morrison :P

    @ultimatesmfan: @denko069:That was Barbara Minerva aka Cheetah a strange pairing but one I thought was really well written.

    Cheetah will appear later in the series. So it is build up.

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    deactivated-5c9535a734784

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    Issue one for me was heartwarming and sad in a way.

    Two almost lost me because of the ending but I still appreciated it.

    Three was just funny. The Deathstroke thing reminded me of JL when Superman fought Gorilla Grodd. I'm kinda looking forward to four now.

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    Black_Arrow

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    The worst part I found in issue 3 wasn't even Superman related, It's Bruce taking training from Ra's, It feels so wrong.

    Is this supposed to be canon or is it non canon?

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    Black_Arrow

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    One weird thing is that some characters have their desings from different universes: Deathstroke has his desing from the Arkham games and Ra's has his desing from Pre 52 and New 52.

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    Squalleon

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    The worst part I found in issue 3 wasn't even Superman related, It's Bruce taking training from Ra's, It feels so wrong.

    Is this supposed to be canon or is it non canon?

    Νοn canon.

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    Squalleon

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    Btw Landis confirmed Superman will fight in the last issue with Doomsday at the age of 29.

    A good age to die :P

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    Impervious

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    Black_Arrow

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    @black_arrow said:

    The worst part I found in issue 3 wasn't even Superman related, It's Bruce taking training from Ra's, It feels so wrong.

    Is this supposed to be canon or is it non canon?

    Νοn canon.

    Then It's fine.

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    Squalleon

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    @squalleon: my god, THAT'S SO EVIL!

    At least in some parallel universe, Superman's death will actually stick :P

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    Denko069

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    @squalleon: So, he'll die.. but what number is the last issue? :D

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    Squalleon

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    galeme

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    All of the three issues was really great, well written with solid art.

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    HeavenlyDarkDragon

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    Well just finished reading the third issue, and it was great!

    Well paced, fun, and in a way revealing why Clark will later on choose to live a simpler life. When in fact he could've everything Bruce has and more.

    I really liked how Landis played with so many characters, that in way or another, are going to travel the hero and villain road. Like Sue Dibny.

    So basically Clark wins a trip and the plane were he's going crashes, near Bruce Wayne yacht. And everyone thinks that Clark is Bruce, just making one hell of an entrance.

    Everything goes weird to Clark from that point on. After all everyone on the yacht was simply too drunk to notice or care if he was Bruce or not. We get to see him meet Oliver Queen, Sue Dibny and most importantly Minerva. The name ringed a bell but I couldn't quite place it, not even when she said she want to be a archeologist.

    And the intereaction between Clark and Minerva was awesome. Only at the end of the comic did I remembered that Clark hooked up with Barbara Minerva, who's gonna become Cheetah.

    One of the funniest moments to me was when Clark was under the effect of that neurotoxin design to kill Bruce, and had to go up against Deathstroke. Deathstroke never knew what hit him.

    Here's the scans...

    No Caption Provided
    No Caption Provided
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    Nice one Landis! Showing that Clark can get any girl. True that she'll eventually become a murdering psychopath, but at this moment she was anything but that.

    They even end up in bed together. A moment for later in the future Clark when he's Superman he can go like this "Wait!? Minerva. Like Barbara Minerva, is now the Cheetah!? And we got in the sack together... Can't let Bruce find out or I'll never hear the end of it."

    All in all loved this comic. Had all the right ingredients.

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    The_Kidd

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    Joelle's art worked better than I thought it would here, though this wasn't much of a Superman story. Dang, Clark is a savage, preemptively hooking up with his girlfriend's arch enemy before she dumps him. I wonder what Wonder Woman and her fans thinks about that.

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    deathfalcon182

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    entropy_aegis

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    #23  Edited By entropy_aegis

    The issue could've been a lot better if they had avoided the Batman connections. Falcone sending Deathstroke was utterly illogical if one goes by what had been provided by Landis himself,not backed by history and resulted in a poor cameo where a character was completely wasted for no reason. It wasn't even funny,and I dont even get Batman training with Ra's and being referred to as son of Bats,did Landis confuse him for Damian?

    Not bad though but could've been better. Cheetah is hawt.

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    deactivated-64b01667a4f83

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    Disclosure: I actually do like Supes to be that “hold out for Twu Wuuuuuv / wedding bells” swashbuckling streaky romantic rather than actual demi-Bond… but on its own terms, yep, the issue was pretty much brilliant. Excellent ken. Obviously Landis' sacrificed much to bring us this kind of well researched scholarship, and I respect that.

    Yeah, dude. Right in the heart-feels.

    :D

    -

    And hah! Joke’s on you, Mxy, my brain came prepared! Mix-see-us-pit-lick!

    That's right. My kung fu is strong

    Oh, wait. I just lost in a different way didn’t I? Dammit.

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    Squalleon

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    @squalleon: how was it quote from Morrison?

    Μοrrison talked about the same thing in various interviews and works and some of Mxyzptlk's quotes are almost direct rips of Morrison's comments.

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    kcomicfan

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    This series has been great so far. After reading issue 3 in my Local comic book store I decided to pick up the first two issues.

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    Redatom1234

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    deathfalcon182

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    #28  Edited By deathfalcon182

    @squalleon: I'm sure whatever Morrison said didn't come as insulting, redundant, ignorant and borderline pretentious.

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    BatWatch

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    (vomits profusely all over the place)

    If it's a good story, it's a good story, but I don't want Superman to be a character who goes out drinking as a teenager and acts like a peeping Tom. If it's an alternate universe, then I guess that's okay, but Superman is supposed to be an inspiration, and I think it's pretty sad if we as a society have to pull down Superman to be something vulgar to make us feel better about ourselves.

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    Lvenger

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    #30  Edited By Lvenger

    @batwatch said:

    (vomits profusely all over the place)

    If it's a good story, it's a good story, but I don't want Superman to be a character who goes out drinking as a teenager and acts like a peeping Tom. If it's an alternate universe, then I guess that's okay, but Superman is supposed to be an inspiration, and I think it's pretty sad if we as a society have to pull down Superman to be something vulgar to make us feel better about ourselves.

    Seconded, I didn't need to see young Clark get wasted and have a fling with a conveniently placed Wonder Woman villain. He's not supposed to be a character who would behave in this way and there are other characters which writers can use if they want to show a superhero getting wasted or picking up chicks. Though it wasn't necessarily terribly executed, it was just an unfitting and unsuitable scene.

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    HeavenlyDarkDragon

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    @batwatch:

    @lvenger said:
    @batwatch said:

    (vomits profusely all over the place)

    If it's a good story, it's a good story, but I don't want Superman to be a character who goes out drinking as a teenager and acts like a peeping Tom. If it's an alternate universe, then I guess that's okay, but Superman is supposed to be an inspiration, and I think it's pretty sad if we as a society have to pull down Superman to be something vulgar to make us feel better about ourselves.

    Seconded, I didn't need to see young Clark get wasted and have a fling with a conveniently placed Wonder Woman villain. He's not supposed to be a character who would behave in this way and there are other characters which writers can use if they want to show a superhero getting wasted or picking up chicks. Though it wasn't necessarily terribly executed, it was just an unfitting and unsuitable scene.

    Guys. Guys. Come on. How old are you? 80? It's a story about Clark being Clark.

    Superman isn't even in the horizon, Clark is still on his life trip to find his place in the world. Just like all of us.

    Max is simply humanizing Clark more than usual. This Clark obviously knows nothing about Krypton. Even that scene where he screems at the stars, where he says "You left me behind, but I'm doing fine." shows how little he knows about himself.

    In my opinion Landis greatest achievement is how he's been able to show us a Clark that's basically like you and me. He has doubts, dreams, all that stuff.

    Just because he has those powers assume that he should place himself in a high morality chair. Being Superman is not about knowing all the answers, but about at any time knowing right from wrong. And as Landis shown, even though Clark was having fun, he still didn't stopped thinking about how all that wealth could be better used, the lives it could save.

    So Clark is no Marty-Stu. GREAT! The story would suck big time, if he was. He's a guy acting his age. Something we all should be able to relate.

    So, chill. Superman will come, and with him all the seriousness and no fun.

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    Lvenger

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    #32  Edited By Lvenger

    @heavenlydarkdragon: This is the second post of mine you've responded to and I haven't even started on your first yet, give me time to catch up at least. I wasn't even aiming them at you, including your previous reply to my Kill Bill rant yesterday/the day before. That was just me ranting about that Kill Bill 2 scene.

    Guys. Guys. Come on. How old are you? 80? It's a story about Clark being Clark.

    I would be 22 as a matter of fact, part of the age target market for this kind of comic yet I can't stand it. And no it's not really about Clark being Clark, it's about how Max Landis wants to make Clark into a Chronicle esque rip off of his own overly human, overly flawed and 'vulnerable' teenager with superpowers. There have been far better stories about Clark being Clark as a kid and teenager.

    Superman isn't even in the horizon, Clark is still on his life trip to find his place in the world. Just like all of us.

    Likewise, there have been much better stories where Clark travels the world to find his place in it, whether they're non canon like Birthright or canon such as Superman: The Odyssey. Nothing's wrong with a story about Superman trying to find his place in the world but despite what Landis said about this issue somehow forming the basis for the idea of Superman in Clark's head, I saw no evidence of Clark finding his place in the world in this issue.

    Max is simply humanizing Clark more than usual. This Clark obviously knows nothing about Krypton. Even that scene where he screems at the stars, where he says "You left me behind, but I'm doing fine." shows how little he knows about himself.

    Exactly my point, he's over humanising Clark to an irrelevant and silly degree. Your next point makes no sense considering that several other interpretations of Clark's early days made it so he didn't know he was from Krypton yet they didn't make Clark sound totally out of character. Landis writes a version of Clark I have serious struggles to imagine he resembles Clark Kent outside of name and appearance.

    In my opinion Landis greatest achievement is how he's been able to show us a Clark that's basically like you and me. He has doubts, dreams, all that stuff.

    And just like Pak's overly emotional depiction of Clark, that comes off poorly in how Landis writes Clark's character to make him sound unnatural and just like any other teenager rather than a teenager wondering about his identity, his purpose and what he'll do with his life and his powers. Hardly a great achievement to me, this is the same writer who had Superman threaten to kill the Joker.

    Just because he has those powers assume that he should place himself in a high morality chair. Being Superman is not about knowing all the answers, but about at any time knowing right from wrong. And as Landis shown, even though Clark was having fun, he still didn't stopped thinking about how all that wealth could be better used, the lives it could save.

    Where in that issue did Clark think about how that wealth could be better used? Haven't heard anything about that from those who've read it. All this issue was about was Clark being mistaken for Bruce, meeting a convenient ensemble of futurely prominent DC characters, hooking up with Barbara Minerva and getting wasted. Really doesn't seem like Clark was doing much thinking in this issue.

    So Clark is no Marty-Stu. GREAT! The story would suck big time, if he was. He's a guy acting his age. Something we all should be able to relate.

    I didn't say I wanted young Clark to be a Marty Stu. Nor is adult Superman a Marty stu. But if this is how Landis thinks us young people all act at our age, he has so much more to learn if he wants to write characters of that age in his stories. Besides, if American Alien #3 is how Landis thinks Clark should act his age, that's a big disservice to Superman, moreso than those sucking up to him are aware of.

    So, chill. Superman will come, and with him all the seriousness and no fun.

    And yet most of your posts are on these boards so strange to say that with Superman comes no fun. If Superman wasn't fun to me, he wouldn't be my favourite comic book character.

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    WF_Mxyzptlk

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    I really enjoyed the inclusion of this page.

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    HeavenlyDarkDragon

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    @lvenger:

    Here we go again...

    Sometimes I wonder why I even bother, but let's do this.

    I would be 22 as a matter of fact, part of the age target market for this kind of comic yet I can't stand it. And no it's not really about Clark being Clark, it's about how Max Landis wants to make Clark into a Chronicle esque rip off of his own overly human, overly flawed and 'vulnerable' teenager with superpowers. There have been far better stories about Clark being Clark as a kid and teenager.

    Really! 22. Good for you. I'd think you'd be more my age 33, or higher. When I read your posts I notice two things, how well informed you are, and also how uptight your words come across. Like it's either your way or the highway.

    Landis is doing things his way. I personally like it, because I can relate to what he writes about and how. He doesn't showcases Clark has the alien messiah that came to saves us poor humans from ourselves. But a boy, a alien boy at that, that most likely wants nothing more than to be just like everyone else.

    Likewise, there have been much better stories where Clark travels the world to find his place in it, whether they're non canon like Birthright or canon such as Superman: The Odyssey. Nothing's wrong with a story about Superman trying to find his place in the world but despite what Landis said about this issue somehow forming the basis for the idea of Superman in Clark's head, I saw no evidence of Clark finding his place in the world in this issue.

    Maybe you're not looking hard enough. Or not even trying.

    When Clark makes reference to that girl that got badly burned and how even making a collection of money they only managed to relief her suffering for a month, while there they were, eating food with gold flakes, that could have bought her cirurgy 3 times over. This to me shows the molding of the boy that will eventually become the man.

    Also from all the people that where there he focused on Minerva. He could have gone wild and make the most of it, but he showed restraint in a place where there was anything but that.

    Even what happened between him and Minerva, it will mark him now, by showing him that even those with monetary possession can be in many ways like him in terms of being good person's, and will mark him later on when he sees how down the wrong path Barb went. And that always makes people think about those things "Could I have done something? Didn't I tried enough?" these are things that he has Superman will one day think about.

    Yes it has been done in many ways over the years. It's it worst? Not in my opinion. And of course you'll have your own like it's your right. Doesn't matter that we don't see eye to eye.

    Exactly my point, he's over humanising Clark to an irrelevant and silly degree. Your next point makes no sense considering that several other interpretations of Clark's early days made it so he didn't know he was from Krypton yet they didn't make Clark sound totally out of character. Landis writes a version of Clark I have serious struggles to imagine he resembles Clark Kent outside of name and appearance.

    Out of character... I love it when people use this phrase about Clark when he's young. And especially when a different writer is writing about him.

    So what is in character? Does such a thing even exist? Not for a good writer. A good writer gives us new things, show us new paths and new ways of doing things.

    Some people will like it others won't. That's life.

    Also saying that's out of character, is like saying "I know who Superman is, and he's not this" when Landis is not even writing about Superman but Clark.

    It's like the person is thinking "We all know he's gonna become Superman, so why waste time with this." And that has created more problems than it should. Because people assume they know who and how Superman is/should be.

    And just like Pak's overly emotional depiction of Clark, that comes off poorly in how Landis writes Clark's character to make him sound unnatural and just like any other teenager rather than a teenager wondering about his identity, his purpose and what he'll do with his life and his powers. Hardly a great achievement to me, this is the same writer who had Superman threaten to kill the Joker.

    Again you're assuming he doesn't have any inner struggles. He's Superman, Clark should eat inner struggles for breakfast, right... Wrong! Superman is all about inner struggles. Just because there's a Super before the Man, doesn’t mean he has less problems than humans. The day Superman loses his inner struggle, is the day he goes all kinds of wrong. Look at Injustice, Red Son and For Tomorrow, if you need evidence of that.

    And tell me, who hasn't Superman threatened at any given moment? Luthor, Brainiac, Darkseid, Maxima, Obsession, Toyman, Prankster, Eradicator, Bruce, Diana, Lois... The list goes on.

    Where in that issue did Clark think about how that wealth could be better used? Haven't heard anything about that from those who've read it. All this issue was about was Clark being mistaken for Bruce, meeting a convenient ensemble of futurely prominent DC characters, hooking up with Barbara Minerva and getting wasted. Really doesn't seem like Clark was doing much thinking in this issue.

    Already answered this above. No use repeating myself.

    I didn't say I wanted young Clark to be a Marty Stu. Nor is adult Superman a Marty stu. But if this is how Landis thinks us young people all act at our age, he has so much more to learn if he wants to write characters of that age in his stories. Besides, if American Alien #3 is how Landis thinks Clark should act his age, that's a big disservice to Superman, moreso than those sucking up to him are aware of.

    Actually Landis pretty much nailed it. It might not be like you and me didn't mainly lived our lives. I'm not super-rich and I'll go on a limb and assume you also aren't.

    But I have rich friends. Quite wealthy in fact. And the times we all went partying rare was the time everyone didn't get wasted. They spent money in one day, like maybe you and me win it over more than the course of a entire year.

    And that was a Bruce Wayne party. You know... The billionaire. And the super-rich don't know exactly have the same level of restraint as a regular person, working 60 to 80 hours a week. If they work 30 hours in one week it's a stretch in itself.

    And yet most of your posts are on these boards so strange to say that with Superman comes no fun. If Superman wasn't fun to me, he wouldn't be my favourite comic book character.

    FYI. I was being sarcastic.

    How could I not be. When you even reprove the fact of Clark having fun. Of acting his own age.

    That's why I also used the 80 age thing. Again I knew you were not 80 but sometimes it seems all the youth and fun has been sucked from you. I'm not saying you're not fun, I don't know you that well. But you limit your options or at least what you're willing to accept within a comic book character, that sometimes you do pass on this vibe that, like I said before... My way or the highway.

    No one can deny you do know your facts. No one. But aside from that... It would be cool if you were more open to changes. To go with the flow of new things.

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    Lvenger

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    #35  Edited By Lvenger

    @heavenlydarkdragon:

    Here we go again...

    Sometimes I wonder why I even bother, but let's do this.

    You responded to me here and on the other thread which I have yet to get to answering, I didn't start this round of arguments this time. Only you know the answer.

    Really! 22. Good for you. I'd think you'd be more my age 33, or higher. When I read your posts I notice two things, how well informed you are, and also how uptight your words come across. Like it's either your way or the highway.

    Landis is doing things his way. I personally like it, because I can relate to what he writes about and how. He doesn't showcases Clark has the alien messiah that came to saves us poor humans from ourselves. But a boy, a alien boy at that, that most likely wants nothing more than to be just like everyone else.

    That was close to my guess for your age, not quite but I was close I see. Anyway, I don't see how expressing my opinion makes me anymore uptight than anyone else who expresses their opinion. People are open to challenge other people's ideas and views and I respond to those same challenges on here and outside of the Internet too.

    Yes indeed he is but my reason for questioning you in this respect is because you don't seem to be getting the relatability of Superman. By that I mean approving of Landis' way of making Superman relatable since he doesn't come off much like an alien boy who wants to be like everyone else. He comes off unpredictable, edgy and dare I say it unstable in all 3 issues thus far. Pre Flashpoint and even New 52 Superman as young boys and teenagers fit your description far better than Landis' approach does, young Clark was obviously not the alien messiah of humanity in his youth, but his character was on the right path to his adult life. This Clark is not however.

    Maybe you're not looking hard enough. Or not even trying.

    When Clark makes reference to that girl that got badly burned and how even making a collection of money they only managed to relief her suffering for a month, while there they were, eating food with gold flakes, that could have bought her cirurgy 3 times over. This to me shows the molding of the boy that will eventually become the man.

    Congrats, you found one example to support your point. Doesn't change the fact that most of the issue was spent on party boy Clark, drunk Clark, wasted Clark and one night stand Clark. If I want to read a party boy superhero, I'll read Iron Man or Green Arrow. Superman comics don't gel with this kind of approach to the character.

    Also from all the people that where there he focused on Minerva. He could have gone wild and make the most of it, but he showed restraint in a place where there was anything but that.

    Even what happened between him and Minerva, it will mark him now, by showing him that even those with monetary possession can be in many ways like him in terms of being good person's, and will mark him later on when he sees how down the wrong path Barb went. And that always makes people think about those things "Could I have done something? Didn't I tried enough?" these are things that he has Superman will one day think about.

    Yes it has been done in many ways over the years. It's it worst? Not in my opinion. And of course you'll have your own like it's your right. Doesn't matter that we don't see eye to eye.

    And I'm very grateful Landis didn't stoop that low, believe me. I wouldn't have been surprised if that's how he chose to present Clark in this issue, the man has a severely overrated grasp of Superman that people need to wake up about.

    This isn't inherently wrong in itself nor did I have a huge problem with the aftermath of what I hear happened between Clark and Minerva, it was the before and during sequence I found to be tacky and unnecessary. Plus three more problems, the third one not being my criticism but some whiny female and feminist readers unfortunately. One this is a non canon series which will have no impact or bearing on the future of Superman comics. Two, Landis used a Wonder Woman villain to get this point across, not an original character or someone connected to Superman so it creates unnecessary problems for this Superman's future. And lastly, the whiny feminists got annoyed on Twitter that Clark acted like a dudebro and Cheetah was treated as a sexual conquest for Clark to further the narrative whilst they were drunk and not sound of mind. I don't like paying those kind of fans heed but it turns out Superman has a larger female fanbase than I thought and they were annoyed by this scene.

    That's your go to for everything nowadays, of course we like our own stuff and don't see eye to eye on several matters but we have the right to different opinions, that is stating the obvious.

    Out of character... I love it when people use this phrase about Clark when he's young. And especially when a different writer is writing about him.

    So what is in character? Does such a thing even exist? Not for a good writer. A good writer gives us new things, show us new paths and new ways of doing things.

    To quote what Sterling Gates tweeted "I really, really didn't need a comic where Superman gets stoned and has sex with a stranger." Who wanted to see a Superman story where this happened? I don't see how it's unfair to point out how

    All nice sounding fluff but that's all it is I'm afraid, just fluff. It's not accurate for Superman's character to have him party it up on an exotic cruise ship, nor is it a sign of good writing to have Superman in a one night stand which nothing will come off and new paths such as Cheetah reduced to a one night fling and Deathstroke randomly showing up having nothing to do with the plot is not a new way of doing things that is very good storytelling.

    Also saying that's out of character, is like saying "I know who Superman is, and he's not this" when Landis is not even writing about Superman but Clark.

    It's like the person is thinking "We all know he's gonna become Superman, so why waste time with this." And that has created more problems than it should. Because people assume they know who and how Superman is/should be.

    It's not why I read Superman comics in that case nor is it what I want to read in Clark, I believe that will be the more subjective answer you're looking for. Personal feedback's kind of important if you want to enjoy a certain comic or character or story.

    Landis is guilty of that very same sin then, his videos reek of him claiming a greater understanding and interpretation of Superman when the reality is he misses certain traits and themes that are what makes the character tick.

    Again you're assuming he doesn't have any inner struggles. He's Superman, Clark should eat inner struggles for breakfast, right... Wrong! Superman is all about inner struggles. Just because there's a Super before the Man, doesn’t mean he has less problems than humans. The day Superman loses his inner struggle, is the day he goes all kinds of wrong. Look at Injustice, Red Son and For Tomorrow, if you need evidence of that.

    Just as you're yet again wrong in wrongly assuming I said Superman doesn't have any inner struggles. When this image popped up on the Vine, I happened to praise it for how I felt about the character.

    No Caption Provided

    Based on me agreeing with this, does that mean I think Superman has no inner struggles? That answer should be obvious now. What it means is that better writers than Landis have approached Superman's inner struggles in a way that doesn't demean the character or make him seem bad for doing what he does. Waid handled Superman's struggle to prove himself to Metropolis and the world far better than Landis has. Likewise, Loeb showed a much stronger depiction of Superman failing to save someone's life in Superman For All Seasons. Indeed Superman should not lose his inner struggles, I don't object to your statement.

    And tell me, who hasn't Superman threatened at any given moment? Luthor, Brainiac, Darkseid, Maxima, Obsession, Toyman, Prankster, Eradicator, Bruce, Diana, Lois... The list goes on.

    • Luthor knows how to push Superman's buttons better than anyone so he can get him to lash out.
    • He hasn't threatened to murder or torture or vengeance on Brainiac though, the threats are to get Kandor back or to stop Brainiac's scheme or whatever he's planning.
    • Darkseid you can have.
    • Nothing violent or to cause suffering on Maxima.
    • Even I needed to do a quick search of who she was to remind me, he was warning her to stop imitating him and to stop trying to get them together as a couple. Nothing violent yet again.
    • Don't recall him threatening Toyman or Prankster.
    • Eradicator's usually an artificial being when Superman's threatened him.
    • The only example in character I can think of is that Superman said he wouldn't avoid Batman's punch.
    • With Diana, the threats have been in conflicts of interest, not about causing each other harm.
    • The Lois threats are gravely out of character moments, I'd have thought you'd know better than to pull up such inaccurate and poorly written instances. Though I'm not surprised you did.

    The list does go on but there's usually context to it you conveniently ignore eh?

    Actually Landis pretty much nailed it. It might not be like you and me didn't mainly lived our lives. I'm not super-rich and I'll go on a limb and assume you also aren't.

    But I have rich friends. Quite wealthy in fact. And the times we all went partying rare was the time everyone didn't get wasted. They spent money in one day, like maybe you and me win it over more than the course of a entire year.

    And that was a Bruce Wayne party. You know... The billionaire. And the super-rich don't know exactly have the same level of restraint as a regular person, working 60 to 80 hours a week. If they work 30 hours in one week it's a stretch in itself.

    Yes he nailed the super rich self absorbed brats of this generation, what high company Landis is having Clark Kent keep. Truly an everyman of the people.

    Good for you, you can feel as happy as you like about knowing how the 1% live. I don't disagree with your assertion, that is what the rich elite of society do. I didn't say Landis got them wrong, I said Landis got the story and character wrong by placing Superman in that and justifying it with a Who's Who of the DCU.

    Point is that it's not an environment Clark Kent should be comfortable in nor is it really necessary for a Superman story, as Sterling Gates correctly pointed out above. I could have done without a Superman gets wasted and laid comic book in existence.

    FYI. I was being sarcastic.

    How could I not be. When you even reprove the fact of Clark having fun. Of acting his own age.

    As was I poking at your tendency to make complaints in many Superman threads. I never reproved Clark having fun, I reproved a Superman story where he gets unnecessarily drunk and wasted. That's not fitting with the character's depiction, other superheroes can be used for that story if Landis wanted to tell it.

    That's why I also used the 80 age thing. Again I knew you were not 80 but sometimes it seems all the youth and fun has been sucked from you. I'm not saying you're not fun, I don't know you that well. But you limit your options or at least what you're willing to accept within a comic book character, that sometimes you do pass on this vibe that, like I said before... My way or the highway.

    No one can deny you do know your facts. No one. But aside from that... It would be cool if you were more open to changes. To go with the flow of new things.

    So me liking certain things about a character makes it seem like I don't know how to have fun? I'm aware that's not what you're actually saying but it just comes off that way which is rather strange and doesn't make that much sense. In any case, when my favourite character has been so poorly depicted, represented and treated in comics and film, I don't hide my displeasure with what I don't like. It's fairly clear that I'm not a huge fan of the DC reboot, especially on what it's done to Superman and my thoughts on MOS don't need to be clarified at this point. It's not exactly pleasant when your favourite character is worse off than he's been in years of publication and presence in the media and people want him to be something he's not.

    Of course your Superman knowledge is pretty top notch too but since you're commenting on me then, I've noticed how you give off the vibe in your posts that you seem to be slightly condescending of all us negative nancy Superman fans and that we need to accept change no matter what. And that you know what changes are needed for Superman. Yet you seem to want to Superman to act like someone else entirely, such as Mr Majestic, Iron Man, Plutonian, Dr Manhatten and more based on your posts. You're never satisfied with a character who you're now a top boards poster for and it's sometimes hard to catch onto what it is you want from the character.

    I am open to changes if they're good, fit the character and are integrated well into the story. But change for change's sake just because some think the character should needlessly evolve, like what you think should happen to the character, is not a valid reason for change in of itself. It has to be done right and it has to make sense. Making unnecessary, unneeded or unfitting changes just for the sake of change can come off poorly, as the state of Superman comics currently shows.

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    suemorphplus209

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    I am guessing this is a non canon origin story right?

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    @heavenlydarkdragon: @lvenger: Guys because I find your conversation very interesting, I would like to express my views on it too. Feel free to ignore me if you want.

    I think the problem in all of Landis' issues is the context.

    For example this issue was clearly written for Clark to get drunk. It was centered around that and it built a situation only for that. The message was swallow, hence the problems in the narrative. Exactly like how issue 2 was written for a particular scene. Both have a common target which you probably guess and I will mention later.I want to make myself clear, I don't have a problem with Clark getting drunk, or having sex with a stranger which actually seems like a pretty nice girl too.

    But like Lvenger pointed out, this was an experience that provided Clark zero-emotional growth, it had zero resonance behind it and It didn't have a deep, productive story or characterization for a 20 page comics. Its built around shock, "Look Superman gets drunk", "look Superman scores a chick, he is cool baby yeah!". Why does Clark goes to be a high class society pretender? Soul searching doesn't seem like the case, a break from duties neither, since he didn't have any. Clark Kent doesn't need to be Superman, to see that he shouldn't be wasting his time with 1% rejects. And we return in my previous comment, the target:

    The caramel that everyone chews so easily lately "relatability". I don't think any of the DC A-listers are inherently relatable and history agrees with me since their best and most popular stories use them as archtypes IN, at best, relatable situations. Easy examples, All Star Superman, Red Son, Action 775, WHttMoT,the list literally goes on for every story that you can find in a top 10-20 Superman lists. Tackle Batman, you will see the same, the character isn't relatable, but the situations are.

    You know which stories don't age gracefully, the ones going for relatability. Why? Because relatability isn't timeless and more importantly it goes against the characters themselves. Superman is made to be the ultimate hero since his inception, having a relatable Superman, an evil Superman, a weak Superman etc. Goes against the same basic concept. Superman doesn't become evil, because he is Superman.
    Superman isn't relatable because he IS Superman. His relatability comes from his choices,his dilemmas, the situations he is in.

    Landis falls in the same pitfalls oversensitive Superman fans fall (but clearly for different reasons,which I could explain if asked), he wants a Superman who is popular, not a Superman who is well-written or timeless. Ready to change the character to his core, for that precious surge in popularity, which won't come until fans accept Superman sells only when he is Superman.

    And at the end of the day, the fans don't know what they want. Trying to appeal to them has shown only decline. Write Superman based on his successes, not their demands.

    Now you will probably say, "why do you think you know better than the other fans Squalleon?". I will be honest, and I will sound pretty pretentious but, that's because I study Superman for what he is, not what I want him to be. I think you can see it in my posts. I bet you won't find posts of mine say what I would like Superman to be, but you will find plenty of me complaining about what Superman should be. I see his best sellers, I see his bombs. His critical successes, his timeless stories, the ones people praise and the ones that not. The ones people forgot despite being good for their time. All these categories have certain common themes and approaches.

    Despite other fans here who hate more about the character than like,who like a particular version or demand one, I like who Superman is, in his core, not just to like a popular character that isn't Batman. All his facets, the hero, the god and the human. And I know, you can't have only some of those and have Superman.

    If you want relatability with Super-powers, read Invincible, Spider-man, Ms.Marvel. But not Superman.

    If you want a savior, read the bible.

    If you want a simple hero, read any other Super-hero.

    Read Superman, because you want Superman. Not what you think he should be.

    Sorry for the extremely long post, I haven't made one of those in a while.

    Thanks for reading!

    @deathfalcon182 said:

    @squalleon: I'm sure whatever Morrison said didn't come as insulting, redundant, ignorant and borderline pretentious.

    I will have to agree and when something is put to a narrative by a very pretentious writer like Landis, it can easily become pretentious too.

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    Squalleon

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    I am guessing this is a non canon origin story right?

    Yes but hardly an origin. Its pretty much an anthology.

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    DieHard200904

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    @heavenlydarkdragon: @lvenger: Guys because I find your conversation very interesting, I would like to express my views on it too. Feel free to ignore me if you want.

    I think the problem in all of Landis' issues is the context.

    For example this issue was clearly written for Clark to get drunk. It was centered around that and it built a situation only for that. The message was swallow, hence the problems in the narrative. Exactly like how issue 2 was written for a particular scene. Both have a common target which you probably guess and I will mention later.I want to make myself clear, I don't have a problem with Clark getting drunk, or having sex with a stranger which actually seems like a pretty nice girl too.

    But like Lvenger pointed out, this was an experience that provided Clark zero-emotional growth, it had zero resonance behind it and It didn't have a deep, productive story or characterization for a 20 page comics. Its built around shock, "Look Superman gets drunk", "look Superman scores a chick, he is cool baby yeah!". Why does Clark goes to be a high class society pretender? Soul searching doesn't seem like the case, a break from duties neither, since he didn't have any. Clark Kent doesn't need to be Superman, to see that he shouldn't be wasting his time with 1% rejects. And we return in my previous comment, the target:

    The caramel that everyone chews so easily lately "relatability". I don't think any of the DC A-listers are inherently relatable and history agrees with me since their best and most popular stories use them as archtypes IN, at best, relatable situations. Easy examples, All Star Superman, Red Son, Action 775, WHttMoT,the list literally goes on for every story that you can find in a top 10-20 Superman lists. Tackle Batman, you will see the same, the character isn't relatable, but the situations are.

    You know which stories don't age gracefully, the ones going for relatability. Why? Because relatability isn't timeless and more importantly it goes against the characters themselves. Superman is made to be the ultimate hero since his inception, having a relatable Superman, an evil Superman, a weak Superman etc. Goes against the same basic concept. Superman doesn't become evil, because he is Superman.

    Superman isn't relatable because he IS Superman. His relatability comes from his choices,his dilemmas, the situations he is in.

    Landis falls in the same pitfalls oversensitive Superman fans fall (but clearly for different reasons,which I could explain if asked), he wants a Superman who is popular, not a Superman who is well-written or timeless. Ready to change the character to his core, for that precious surge in popularity, which won't come until fans accept Superman sells only when he is Superman.

    And at the end of the day, the fans don't know what they want. Trying to appeal to them has shown only decline. Write Superman based on his successes, not their demands.

    Now you will probably say, "why do you think you know better than the other fans Squalleon?". I will be honest, and I will sound pretty pretentious but, that's because I study Superman for what he is, not what I want him to be. I think you can see it in my posts. I bet you won't find posts of mine say what I would like Superman to be, but you will find plenty of me complaining about what Superman should be. I see his best sellers, I see his bombs. His critical successes, his timeless stories, the ones people praise and the ones that not. The ones people forgot despite being good for their time. All these categories have certain common themes and approaches.

    Despite other fans here who hate more about the character than like,who like a particular version or demand one, I like who Superman is, in his core, not just to like a popular character that isn't Batman. All his facets, the hero, the god and the human. And I know, you can't have only some of those and have Superman.

    If you want relatability with Super-powers, read Invincible, Spider-man, Ms.Marvel. But not Superman.

    If you want a savior, read the bible.

    If you want a simple hero, read any other Super-hero.

    Read Superman, because you want Superman. Not what you think he should be.

    Sorry for the extremely long post, I haven't made one of those in a while.

    Thanks for reading!

    @deathfalcon182 said:

    @squalleon: I'm sure whatever Morrison said didn't come as insulting, redundant, ignorant and borderline pretentious.

    I will have to agree and when something is put to a narrative by a very pretentious writer like Landis, it can easily become pretentious too.

    This so very much. +1 to that.

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    @lvenger said:
    @batwatch said:

    (vomits profusely all over the place)

    If it's a good story, it's a good story, but I don't want Superman to be a character who goes out drinking as a teenager and acts like a peeping Tom. If it's an alternate universe, then I guess that's okay, but Superman is supposed to be an inspiration, and I think it's pretty sad if we as a society have to pull down Superman to be something vulgar to make us feel better about ourselves.

    Seconded, I didn't need to see young Clark get wasted and have a fling with a conveniently placed Wonder Woman villain. He's not supposed to be a character who would behave in this way and there are other characters which writers can use if they want to show a superhero getting wasted or picking up chicks. Though it wasn't necessarily terribly executed, it was just an unfitting and unsuitable scene.

    Landis' obsession with his own version of Superman is so self congratulatory and self indulgent, it's pathetic. He doesn't want to tell good Superman story, he wants tell story featuring his version of Superman. Superman who parties, gets drunk and has one night stand without any sort of real emotional connection because it's what a Superman who is cool would do. A superman who lives by no codes and does what he thinks is "right" (remember adventures of Superman issue?). Sterling Gates is right, we don't need to see Superman get drunk and stones and and have casual sex. THAT'S NOT SUPERMAN. And to think Landis has audacity to think he gets Superman better than other.

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    #43  Edited By Lvenger

    @squalleon: I'm very much glad you added into it, that was a killer post on the discussions and events of this latest American Alien issue. That insight has definitely added a great deal to this thread and to the previous conversations and I can't really see anything I'd object to personally. I did mean to specify that the story didn't provide any emotional growth for Landis' Clark at some point but now it's clear to see.

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    @squalleon:

    Plenty of good points indeed.

    But here's the things that I simply can't wrap my head around.

    Almost every complaint I've read about Clark behavior was based on a single point... "This is not how Superman should be. This doesn't help shape the hero he's meant to be. And there was no need to show Clark getting drunk, and having a one night stand."

    First of all he's not Superman. And although in the title it says "Superman - American Alien" the first three issues were about Clark. There is no Superman! No yet at least. So why always compare Clark to what he even isn't yet? It would be like a timetraveler came from the future and started telling someone, what he could or could not do. Because he was destined to become a certain person.

    Also, him partying. First of all he's not once shown drunk or wasted. So those two parts are out the window. Everyone else was pretty much wasted with the exception of Clark and Minerva. The only time Clark was acting a little wasted he had received what to a human would've been a lethal dose of a neurotoxin. Just like Deadstroke pointed out. He was not drunk, from the drinking but from the toxin. Bad enough when Clark says after the plane crashes "I didn't know I could drown" if his alien metabolism couldn't handle alchool then Landis would be really creating a much more weaker version of what usually Clark is in terms of power at that age.

    Also if you noticed I get the feeling that scene with him and Minerva in bed, was somehow a conflicted scene, most likely DC most have shown objections to it but in the end let it roll. Because we got Clark and Minerva kissing, then they're in bed, and in the next scene they're what it seems that same place they've kissed and were lying on the floor, looking at the stars. Like the previous scene with both of them in bed didn't happened at all. It was clear as water there was some serious debate even within the DC staff to run with that scene.

    I personally am willing to see what writers can do with Clark and Superman. I'm not so uptight that I don't even give room for other writers to show their way of doing things. Yes, it might have not been Clark saving some African country from feudal conflicts, dodging bullets, benting machine guns with his bare hands. It was not Clark playing with lions and wondering where did he came from. It wasn't Clark secretly already helping people with his powers. It was different.

    If I wanted to read Clark doing all those things then I wouldn't need to read Landis work. I'd go back and re-read all the old material.

    Landis was showing a Clark without any responsabilities whatsoever, the only responsability he had was to himself. In the previous issue we got Clark being put in situations that grown up people shouldn't have placed him in. People in Smallville were already putting the pressure on him to fix their problems for them. And we all saw how that came out. People were complaining about everything Clark had done but conveniently left out the people that really were in the wrong, it was people saying "Why did he burned the guys hands off. That's not very Superman." , "He was drinking bear with his friends. That's not very Superman." and few were the people that read it and said "First of all why did the sheriff took Clark to a active crime scene? He's a kid not a cop. And later the same person has the nerves to call in out on what he did." , "First of all he didn't burned those guy hands on purpose, his heat vision most likely just kicked in, seeing he got shot in the head and all. Also the guy was a criminal with no problems killing anyone that got in his way, and people are complaining about Clark. I'd have burned not just his hands but the entire guy to ashes."

    So in the previous issue we had Clark getting pulled by other people into responsabilities that were not his own, and in this issue Landis wanted to lighten the mood. Maybe give Clark some chill time from all the responsabilities and doubts, all the while showing him living amongst the 1% and how he'd behave around them. If he'd learn anything from that experience.

    The problem with "A Superman that's well written and timeless" is that greater writers have tried before to give us well written timeless stories and all we got was poor excuses that tried to pass on as Superman comics. And we don't have to look very far. Besides from Morrison and Pak runs, there hasn't been anyother writers that produced something readers could agree, being something good. Only mediocre. Lobdell contrary to my own opinions most people thought his stories showed a Superman that was too dark, that Supes didn't had that feeling of hope about him, that he pushed things too far too fast, Snyder Unchained started well and completely derailed. Johns run started okay but then became so predictable and so poorly writen I almost couldn't believe it was the same guy that in the past had given us great arcs. Yang... better to not even start. If anything he proved why so many so called great writers fail miserably to write about Superman. Even Johns take on the Darkseid War, of all the characters he hurt Superman the most, once again.

    And as you yourself have said, trying to please the fans has produced some of the worst results we've seen in a long time. I'd go even further and say that the real fault lies with the teams DC as chosen. That they themselves don't have a clear idea of who Superman should be and where he's going.

    "why do you think you know better than the other fans Squalleon?"... Not at all. You got your ideas, points of view and opinions. Just like everyone else. And when you say "because I study Superman for what he is, not what I want him to be" that's all good and fine. For the exception of one crucial point. The writers themselves don't know what he his, so how can you? If we take a look at just the New 52 reboot, to save us some precious time, and examine the "Superman" we've been given, then "what he is" is limited to what you're currently reading and even then you get conflicting views. It's like looking at pieces of Superman, but none of them being the real one.

    And saying that you don't say what you'd like Superman to be, but what he should be... at the end of the day is all a matter of semantics. What one person wants something to be or what it should be, basically falls in the same category. They both show that you're not satisfied or pleased with what you've been seeing. And in that regard we're more alike than maybe you'd admit to yourself.

    I want Superman to live up to his full potential, you want good, well writen stories, preferably with arcs that are in a way continuations of one another, and not have one writer undermine or undo what others have done, creating a whole lot of mess and confusion. But for Superman to live to his full potential then I require the same thinngs you do. Without good, consistent, stories, Superman has a character will never evolve.

    And as relatability goes, it doesn't help anyone, if you try to explain a reboot and the events that have transpired, and you have so much confusion and contradictions that you can't even say "Well this feat counts has being true".

    Buttom line is this. I'm more open and willing to accept Landis work and even have fun reading it, because it's mostly a break from what I've seen before.

    My work is developing code, creating all those nice programs that make the hardware work and do fun stuff, and as such my mind has to be always two steps ahead of the game. I can't copy other people work, I can base my work on things that have been done, but in some way or another I got to improve on not only what's been done, but what I'm currently doing. And I do this for a living, that is my life, or my professional life. And it crosses to what I also read, see and hear.

    I was and am maybe one of the few people that went to see Force Awakens and actually didn't liked the movie. While half a world is praising the movie to high heavens, I can't even think of whatching it a second time, I even avoid talking about the movie just so I don't get my day ruined.

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    Squalleon

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    @squalleon:

    First of all he's not Superman. And although in the title it says "Superman - American Alien" the first three issues were about Clark. There is no Superman! No yet at least. So why always compare Clark to what he even isn't yet?

    Clark is Clark. Superman is the suit. His morality didn't first appeared when he first put the suit on, it was already there. Clark is at least 23 in this issue. He is a full grown man. Y

    Also, him partying. First of all he's not once shown drunk or wasted. So those two parts are out the window. Everyone else was pretty much wasted with the exception of Clark and Minerva. The only time Clark was acting a little wasted he had received what to a human would've been a lethal dose of a neurotoxin.

    I don't disagree. But the story was thin and had nothing to say. If you had to give a reason to someone to bother buying this issue which would it be? Superman parties with 1%ers, Superman gets stoned, or Superman has a one-night stand. Siegel and Shuster would roll in their graves.

    There is no substance for anything behind the issue. Its shallow. It is disguised void, in the form of a "relatable" story.

    If I wanted to read Clark doing all those things then I wouldn't need to read Landis work. I'd go back and re-read all the old material.

    Or new material that would actually try to write Superman, not fan-fiction.

    So in the previous issue we had Clark getting pulled by other people into responsabilities that were not his own, and in this issue Landis wanted to lighten the mood. Maybe give Clark some chill time from all the responsabilities and doubts, all the while showing him living amongst the 1% and how he'd behave around them. If he'd learn anything from that experience.

    In this and the previous we had a writer who pushed certain scenes. In the previous issue the story made sure to take all the dark turns to show how "fallible" Clark is and in this it just said nothing other than,"hey look Clark drinks and parties, he is one of us dudebro"

    A light mood doesn't mean shallowness.

    The problem with "A Superman that's well written and timeless" is that greater writers have tried before to give us well written timeless stories and all we got was poor excuses that tried to pass on as Superman comics. And we don't have to look very far. Besides from Morrison and Pak runs, there hasn't been anyother writers that produced something readers could agree, being something good. Only mediocre. Lobdell contrary to my own opinions most people thought his stories showed a Superman that was too dark, that Supes didn't had that feeling of hope about him, that he pushed things too far too fast, Snyder Unchained started well and completely derailed. Johns run started okay but then became so predictable and so poorly writen I almost couldn't believe it was the same guy that in the past had given us great arcs. Yang... better to not even start. If anything he proved why so many so called great writers fail miserably to write about Superman. Even Johns take on the Darkseid War, of all the characters he hurt Superman the most, once again.

    I disagree. You confuse writers who try to write their version of Superman, with ones that try to write Superman. Moore, Morrison, Millar, Busiek, Kelly, studied the character before they write him, they didn't just start throwing stories.
    And New 52 Superman btw is a perfect example of what I mean. Writers that don't know Superman or either feel Superman doesn't work and they desperately try to change him, hence the failures.
    Writers like Yang, Lobdell see this as a side-job, not a dream project or even as fans. Snyder for example has shown in Unchained and in his Batman, that he actually has no deep knowledge in the genre he is currently known for.

    Johns was forced off the title and his run was left in its very beginning, the prelude to the main run. You and not only give him too much grief for a decision he had no power on.

    "why do you think you know better than the other fans Squalleon?"... Not at all. You got your ideas, points of view and opinions. Just like everyone else. And when you say "because I study Superman for what he is, not what I want him to be" that's all good and fine. For the exception of one crucial point. The writers themselves don't know what he his, so how can you? If we take a look at just the New 52 reboot, to save us some precious time, and examine the "Superman" we've been given, then "what he is" is limited to what you're currently reading and even then you get conflicting views. It's like looking at pieces of Superman, but none of them being the real one.

    A writer isn't an expert, being a story-teller doesn't give you character insight. And that's a problem with many writers DC hires for Supes. They aren't experts or big fans. Yang, JRJR pretty much admitted they hadn't read much to any Supes and because of them Truth happened. JRJR wanted to write Batman and he brought that to Superman!

    New 52 Superman was flawed from his beginnings. Morrison tried to cheat the world that this Superman was new by giving us the same Superman that always worked. The mistakes happened past that, when mediocre writers caught the character in their grip, together with a strong editorial force that asks for more "relatability" and darkness.

    And saying that you don't say what you'd like Superman to be, but what he should be... at the end of the day is all a matter of semantics. What one person wants something to be or what it should be, basically falls in the same category. They both show that you're not satisfied or pleased with what you've been seeing. And in that regard we're more alike than maybe you'd admit to yourself.

    If I had my way I would do some things differently. But I know that my way isn't the right way. And I learned to love the character for who he is when he works the best.

    Buttom line is this. I'm more open and willing to accept Landis work and even have fun reading it, because it's mostly a break from what I've seen before.

    Personally, up to know, I have seen everything he has done been done in the past....

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    HeavenlyDarkDragon

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    @lvenger:

    What I want for Superman is quite simply explained in these 9 words... For him to live up to his full potential

    You're the one that thinks that I want him to be Mr. Majestic, Martian Manhunter, Dr. Manhattan (this one you always lose me) and whatever character you can compare to. Sometimes I've even wonder why you didn't included Shazam while you were at it.

    When I reference some of these characters I'm mostly agreeing to one simple point. All of them live up to their full potential or pretty damn close to it. While Superman does not.

    It's not that hard to understand has you can see. I simply want Superman to become proactive both in actions and about himself. And instead of simply gaining powers as he sees fit, like Martian Manhunter is known to do, I'd personally like to see Superman train to become better. To not simply use all the mustles except the one's that really matter.

    And if that implies that he has to operate globaly, outside the JL, even operate outside of the Earth... Then so be it.

    How many times can anyone see the same character face the same enemies over and over again, defending the same places over and over again, having the same supporting cast over and over again. Until you pick up a comic, you're not even half through it, and you basically have already figured out how it's gonna end.

    Yes, I want change. Good change. I want good, new, consistent stories. I want the teams to follow on each other work and not undermine, contradict or simply erase the work other writers done previously. If there's crossovers then the least they could do is cross notes.

    Honestly in my line of work none of these so called teams would've lasted a month. In a age where creativity, resourcefulness, and talent are at a all time high of demand, and where results have to be accomplished, sometimes I wonder how many of these writers even have a job.

    @deathfalcon182:

    Landis' obsession with his own version of Superman is so self congratulatory and self indulgent, it's pathetic. He doesn't want to tell good Superman story, he wants tell story featuring his version of Superman. Superman who parties, gets drunk and has one night stand without any sort of real emotional connection because it's what a Superman who is cool would do. A superman who lives by no codes and does what he thinks is "right" (remember adventures of Superman issue?). Sterling Gates is right, we don't need to see Superman get drunk and stones and and have casual sex. THAT'S NOT SUPERMAN. And to think Landis has audacity to think he gets Superman better than other.

    I really laught at this. It was impossible not to laught.

    "THAT'S NOT SUPERMAN"... Only thing that I read that actually hits the mark. That's because THIS ISN'T A STORY ABOUT SUPERMAN.

    It's a story about Clark way before the Superman thing comes along. And what I find it funny is that you know that it isn't about Superman and still you read it, expecting it to be about Superman.

    And what's up with the morality thing? And with this I don't mean only you but everyone nickpiking at things that didn't even happened.

    First of all, Clark never gets drunk, he gets poisoned by Deathstroke, so check your facts.

    Second, he hooks up with Minerva, SO WHAT!? He's a guy, a alien guy, but still a guy, why shouldn't he allowed to have fun? What!? Do you want him to only have sex with Lois. Eww... Now that's lame. And completely unreal.

    Third. Yes, he parties a little. For the first time since maybe ever and for the rest of his life, he has no responsabilities whatsoever. Again, what's so wrong about that? I bet you didn't disapproved when in the previous issue a grown up man, a agent of the law, the sheriff of Smallville takes a kid to a active crime scene, so Clark could so his job for him. And later grills him for having to defend himself when he tries to difuse a bad situation, peacefully and gets immediately shot in the face. If he didn't had his invulnerability already kicking in and growing, then that would've been his funeral right there.

    It's a story about Clark people. For just one second forget that he's gonna become Superman, and all your complaints will be gone. Look at him as Landis most likely is trying to look. Clark is just a teenager, knows nothing about Krypton, doesn't even knows what he can and can't do. He's a teenager living his life. We the readers know he's gonna become Superman, but the character doesn't. At that point in time Clark didn't know more about his future than any of us.

    A writer can only do so much. If a reader can't distance himself from preconceived notions and ideas. From what he knows and doesn't know. Then the reader can't really appreciate anything because you're always waiting to see the big red S on his chest, when that's not even the character that was written.

    Why do you think Landis included this last page...

    No Caption Provided

    ... think about it for a minute or two. And let it sink in.

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    deathfalcon182

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    #47  Edited By deathfalcon182

    @heavenlydarkdragon: Landis included last page because he wants to do something special every fu$%&ng chance he gets. That page is him pushing his views down his audience throats while not caring how insulting it reads. Trying too hard to do a Morrison impression and failing in my book. That's as hollow and as pretentious as one gets.

    Also my point where I said Landis' obsession with his version of Clark/Superman is pathetic, still stands. He actively dismissed other writers' take on character because they didn't write the character the way Landis wants. He always comes off as an ultimate fanboy who dismisses everyone else's opinions, kinda like all fans do sometimes, he just does it actively, in his videos he's always snarky while passing down statements that he gets the character better than other and those who disagree are irrelevant and absolutely wrong.

    But that's enough rant on Landis, let's talk about th book. Why do we need to see Clark get drunk, party like some playboy archetype and have a random one night stand without any real emotional connection. Well because Landis thinks it makes character cool. Yeah that's what cool people do Landis, right on. This is his another obsession, trying to make character look cool. He tried to do this in his gid awful Adventure of Superman comic where he tried to make Superman look cool by pitting him against Joker and later on Batman. He had Superman make fun of Joker and made joker look pathetic idiot while Superman delivers the line of "I have no code, I do what I think is right." Later he had Superman try to intimidate Batman by throwing a tantrum against him and make Batman look stereotype character that non fans think him to be. That's the depth of his reasoning behind trying to go for shock value, because he genuinely thinks if fans haven't seen Superman/Clark do particular thing in comics ever, they'll think him to be cool.

    Don't believe me, here are few quotes from Landis about the series he gave in an interview.

    " I write Superman a bit differently than I've seen him presented in the past; nothing revolutionary, but different. This has always guided how I've appreciated the character; my idea of who he should be, and how I would write him."

    "I want to present a more round version of the character than is usually portrayed. That's not to say mine is better, but it is different, and cool, and fun in a way that you're not used to from this super hero."

    That's his mentality, to present the character as "cool" and "fun" by having him do this kind of fluff.

    Also don't presume to know what I expect this series to be or not, that I know better. I want this series to be good story about the character I adore even though I think Landis is an insufferable douche. I actually quite liked the first issue and somewhat thought issue 2 to be good. Should not have expected Landis to not be a tryhard.

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    Squalleon

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    @lvenger:

    No Caption Provided

    ... think about it for a minute or two. And let it sink in.

    *cough* Morrison *cough*

    This is literally an exact quote from Morrison's Super-gods. Landis is a huge fan and just copied word by word a part of the book :P

    I am not even kidding.

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    SuperCrab

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    #49  Edited By SuperCrab

    I thought it was a really entertaining story. Clark just flicking the bad guy away was awesome. :) It's fun. He got the girl, he got drunk on some alcohol and a neurotoxin that only helped him feeling inebriated rather than truly hurting him (Because he's from another planet), he had some cool funny lines, the bad guy lost, etc.. Cool Oliver Queen cameo. What's not to like? This isn't the adult Superman, he's still finding his way. And it shows him for once looking way better than Batman- this serious Batman villain who the caped crusader struggles with is just literally almost accidentally flicked away by a drunk Clark Kent on the way to the bathroom after getting laid. :) "Cool costume, bro". :)

    But wouldn't it be cool to have an ongoing comic book about an adult superhero who acts like of like this take on Clark? Not an actual Superman comic, a new character with a new back story who likes his beer, likes women, has fun, and kicks butt a lot- occasionally has a deep talk about the stars and universe and our place in the galaxy. Anyone feel like there's a book already kind of like that I should be reading?

    The backup story was cool. :) I like it- trippy and mindbending stuff from everyone favorite inhabitant of the 5th dimension. :)

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    OrangeBat

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    #50  Edited By OrangeBat

    @squalleon said:

    @heavenlydarkdragon said:

    @lvenger:

    No Caption Provided

    ... think about it for a minute or two. And let it sink in.

    *cough* Morrison *cough*

    This is literally an exact quote from Morrison's Super-gods. Landis is a huge fan and just copied word by word a part of the book :P

    I am not even kidding.

    I actually suspect Landis doesn't even have a clue what that speech signifies, since the main meaning of it is that our imaginations can invent gods to enslave the minds of billions worldwide without, technically, even existing. Basically like the meme speech from Metal Gear Solid 2 and part of Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance, except substitute "superheroes" in place of "memes". Plus, obligatory, subtle dig at religion, and mass media culture.

    What it has to do with a retelling of the Superman story with a "cool" Clark Kent is beyond me. It certainly doesn't work as an adequate defense of what he's doing with the character, against people that don't like it.

    For the record, I don't mind Landis' stuff, I just don't think it's that good. I'm kinda curious what he does with Doomsday though, since his original claim to fame was dissing The Death and Return of Superman in a YouTube video.

    I'll be honest though, I will laugh so hard if he screws it up even worse that the original story did.

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