This is a thread where people can post proof Marvel stopped publishing the 616 after Back in Black. I want to make this clear I've been of the mind MC2 is the true cannon since way back in 2003 so I gain nothing by averting the notion that BND is 616 canon.

Exhibit A.

About a year before OMD there was an issue of Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man where Peter almost fell for one of Mysterio's death traps which featured an interactive hologram of MJ in danger the only reason he didn't fall for it was that the hologram didn't feature MJ's wedding ring. 616 Devil deal=no marriage=no wedding ring=dead Spider-Man=Brand New Day-Now never happened.

In JMS' "Happy Birthday" story, it's established Peter and MJ will have a son called Ben, not a girl like Mephisto told them they would have. In that future, MJ dies and Peter becomes a fugitive. Later during Civil War, the one-above-all promised Peter he'd overcome every obstacle and have children with MJ. Those children were Ben (carrying over from the possible future from Happy Birthday) and a daughter named after Peter's mother (or named after Mary Jane...she's essentially Mary Junior, thus another "MJ"), so it's entirely possible Peter learned his lessons from "Happy Birthday" and was able to extend his family with MJ after the two made their pact to stick together forever and always in "To Have and to Hold"

Of course, maybe the "Ben and Mary" future can still happen in the post-OMD world, but it would'nt explain what happened to the girl from OMD

Sigh......when your writing in a huge universe there's going to be mistakes and errors, they don't mean the universe changed. Also, it doesn't matter what evidence you bring up, it's 616 until Marvel says otherwise.

It's established as Prime Earth now. The Spider-Offices just haven't gotten the memo.

That is just a continuity error.

The stories after OMD do take place in the 616 universe, here is my proof:

@kcomicfan: Marvel's Wikis have often contested universe designations in Marvel books, and Spider-Verse got a lot of designations wrong during the event

Also, that bit from Spider-Woman Alpha comes from a post-SW comic, and it's been established 616 is known now as Prime Earth, so that particular scan is also a continuity error.

It is extremely unlikely that Marvel would get the designation for the main Spider-Man wrong. And the designations in the first issue of Secret Wars are clearly right.

Exhibit B.

Kraven's Last Hunt same thing no marriage=dead spiderman=no BND-Now.

I have one mighty exhibit C but it's gonna take a while to type so I'll postpone it.

"Exhibit B" is just another continuity error.

So the word 616 on a page and the lies that go into propping up that notion trump actual on page events not a surprise at all coming from you @kcomicbookfan and Dematteis totally disagrees with you on KLH.

@knightwriteri said: So the word 616 on a page and the lies that go into propping up that notion trump actual on page events not a surprise at all coming from you @kcomicbookfan and Dematteis totally disagrees with you on KLH.

The word "616" on the page is an on page event, it is a clear indicator that these stories take place in the 616/main Marvel universe. Marvel isn't lying because this information comes from multiple sources. DeMatties' views have no weight when they are compared to the general consensus. So far you have only used circumstantial evidence to support your case, do you have any direct evidence, like a scan or an interview?

This isn't really exhibit C as I came up with it more recently but it takes less time to convey.

Exhibit D: Quesada is well known to have changed the contents of word and thought bubbles in the pages he recycled from the wedding annual to serve his anti-marriage narrative this of course means that Mephistoverse isn't the 616 as these characters are thinking/speaking against established 616 continuity before Mephisto did anything

And don't anyone give me BS about a continuity error Quesada could have kept the words intact with no effort as opposed to attempting to deceive readers unfamiliar with the actual annual. We are talking about a difference in the Mephistoverse reality from the 616 that wasn't caused by Mephisto.

This isn't the first time dialog has been changed when a scene is reprinted or revisited. It is just a continuity error, the only difference between this continuity error and the ones above is this continuity error is clearly deliberate.

Sure, but does anyone REALLY wanna defend JOE QUESADA?

If you don't stick to continuity, that just shows your a poor writer. A good writer will be able to understand the story and characters and would be able to work with what they have.

Also, who's to say they AREN'T two 616 worlds now. Like one mirroring the other?

For example, Dan Slott killed MC2's Peter Parker in rather annoying fashion. When questioned about this, creator of the Spider-Girl series, Tom DeFalco himself, stated that SpiderVerse Mayday is NOT his Mayday. That is one random universe of MC2. The universes split more and more. They are practically 5 MC2 universes and the one Dan Slott introduced apparently is just a mirrored one, almost the same yet different. I'm going to believe DeFalco on this one because HE IS THE CREATOR.

Also, if you say that writers and so forth can change their mind about past dialogue, who's to say that future writers can't do that with this universe?

Like one day, the marvel characters could suddenly realize "Mephisto tore 616 apart into several pieces till he acquired a world where Peter accepted his deal!" and then every 616 we saw before could be then registered as like 616-b. This isn't too far from what Marvel does. This is a valid option.

Yes, there is absolutely nothing wrong with defending Joe Quesada.

That would be true for any other form of storytelling, but Comic Books have so much continuity it is extremely difficult to keep track of everything.

Marvel hasn't said that there are two 616 universes, and until marvel says that there are two 616 universes, there aren't two 616 universes. It's honestly really simple, Marvel said that it is the original 616 universe, so it is the original 616 universe.

Again, Marvel could do that, but they haven't done that, so it doesn't matter.

Hhhmmmmmm...

@krleavenger: Mhm hhhhhmmmmmmm.......

I've a feeling they're going to reveal the RYV Parkers are the originals, or could reveal they are the part of the 616 versions that remembered given full physical form, we know from Power Play they are connected to 616 Peter, MJ, and Regent.

The Secret Wars event is in the Marvel wiki's 616 Universe entry and the Spider-Verse event is in the Marvel wiki's 616 Peter Parker entry. So, according to the Wiki, all those scans are correct.

Don't let him rattle you dude. Guy only exists here to be a contrarian apologist who will speak up for anything Marvel does regardless of how little sense it makes.

I am not a "contrarian apologist" I have just learnt to accept that Marvel makes the rules of their universe, and that will be true no matter how hard you try to convince yourself it is not.

Also, I don't speak up for anything Marvel does, you don't know what you are talking about.

I would hope not. That would be boring, predictable, and a huge cop out IMO.

And tbh, I agree with @kcomicfan on this one. It is just wishful thinking to call the 616 "Mephistoverse" and say that it isn't the main universe.

Im pretty tempted to see the RYV Parkers have the same connection the 616 Peter, MJ and Regent have.

They are unlimited possibilities as to how they could go through with this. So many fun options if they make them the real Parkers (wich seems to be what most fans want)

Like what if secret wars thrusted RYV Parkers into 616 but a few years in the past? Maybe they are brought in the night of OMD? Give it a whole Superman kinda thing where Peter is watching the Amazing-Spiderman. He is conflicted about trying to confront this Peter or continue to hide and just raise his daughter. Though I don't think Marvel would fully copy a DC idea. They could probably make some fantastic story given the correct writers.

Would be kinda fun to see RYV Parkers meet 616 and show what Peter and MJ have been missing from their lives.

Exhibit E: Long before OMD Marvel published a two part What If? About a reality where Peter and MJ's wedding was messed up in fact in a similar manner Peter missed the wedding but Peter and MJ didn't have this "commited relationship" like in the mephistoverse continuity in the what if they broke up, Black Cat showed up and Peter married her Black Cat died and Peter started working for Sable.

If Peter missed the wedding as he did in OMIT the timeline would have played out very similarly if not the same as the what if moreover the characterization in the What If is far more accurate.

Which brings me to exhibit F: Mary Jane would never have stuck around with Peter as long as she did if they weren't married she went from a flight party girl fearing commitmemt to the most loyal spouse one could imagine she took those wedding vows very seriously and mentioned there wedding vows with nauseating frequency (wait no marriage no frequent wedding vow refferences in important scenes) This reality was the whole point of them having a nearly nonexistant engagement period both of them were aware there was a serious risk she'd chicken out if they took their time and neither wanted that.

YES, exactly. MJ was fearful of marriage at the beginning but with Peter's continued perseverance and her own realization that she loved Peter and wanted to be with him she accepted the proposal and decided to be a loyal spouse who stood by him through ANYTHING and knowing she was also going to deal with Spider Man.

The following was taken from an article that fully explains the depth of MJ's loyalty and love for Peter. Link below:

http://geektyrant.com/news/5-most-disrespected-characters-in-the-marvel-universe

"Hear me out on this one."

"I can go on about One More Day for literally weeks at a time, and I still won’t get out all of the issues I have with it. Yes yes, I know all those old stories “still happened” and so on and so on, but the fact is these decisions were made directly as a result of personal views, not what was best for the character, and that is my biggest issue."

"The worst part of it was how it completely undermined the smart, intelligent, and adept woman that Mary Jane had become. This is a woman who stood by Peter through all, and I stress ALL, of his issues. Depressed “I can’t go on” Peter, angry “I’m going to bring back the black suit and almost kill people” Peter, tunnel vision “the city is all that matters” Peter, and don’t forget “oh my god Aunt May got hurt for like the 90th time so I must be by her bedside” Peter. She doesn’t get enough credit for all the junk she put up with."

"When times were tough, she was right there, and the powers that be thanked her for all that time and effort by making her a scapegoat for the ultimate storyline cop out. Because obviously, someone who has been in the thick of it fighting for her marriage would just randomly decide to make a deal with the devil so Aunt May, who had to be well into her 70s or 80s at this point, wouldn't die. It couldn’t be Peter, because we can’t have our hero making a deal with Mephisto, but the woman? Yeah, why not."