Stormcell

@god_spawn:Since I feel most of what you posted was directed at me, let's be fair. First off, when I was over at CBR, I barely posted on this site. The hatred for Storm cannot be blamed on her fanbase. To that end, let's examine the facts, shall we?

1) Other fanbases want to ignore feats Storm fans cite for character even when multiple scans are provided of her doing said feats. This has been a behavior pattern practiced by other fanbases for as long as I've been on the internet, yet we're the problem because we don't want to ignore her feats while other fandoms go so far as to make up feats for their favorite characters. And we're the obsessed ones? This is not even up for a debate. It's a fact. To claim any different would be lying.

2) Since you brought up Jean specifically in this, I'll use her as an example in this post.

The overwhelming majority of the canon out there states Xavier to be the most powerful psi pre-Hickman. Yes, Jean was stated to have greater POTENTIAL (as in what she can become one day because of the whole potential to host the Phoenix Force and all), but he was very consistently stated to be the most powerful mind throughout the canon for well over 50 years up until the last year (I'm exluding times when characters were serving as Phoenix hosts when I say this and the occassional appearance of characters like Classic Shadow King). Also, he has feats that Jean hasn't come anywhere near approaching as does other psis like Shadow King. Yet, anyone who's followed the Jean fandom and (fandoms of other characters like Magneto) consistently want to lowball or ignore feats from other characters so their favorites rise to the top. All Storm fans ever wanted was to partake in these debates and have our favorite character's feats given their due. It's not fun when the deck is stacked unfairly with double-standards in debates.

And by the way, if anyone accuses me of doing this to Jean, they are flat out lying. When Jean pulls a feat on a character, I examine it from both sides. For instance, when Jean got into Magneto's head during Revolution, Jean fans try and use that as a feat for Jean, but when you examine Magneto's mental defenses from previous years, you quickly discover there's no way she should've been able to get into his head at all, and especially not without any resistance from him whatsoever. Yet, you (and others) have called me a hypocrite for pointing out things like this. Sorry, that's not the way it works. This is from the sticky thread in the forum:

"Feats are, essentially, evidence of ability to back up an argument.

When looking at feats, be objective. Do critical analysis and unravel the context behind the feats; don’t take them at face value. See if there is:

• PIS / Plot Induced Stupidity – When a character wins, loses, or does something out of character for the sake of plot.
• CIS / Character Induced Stupidity – When a character wins, loses, or does something out of character because of something that is occurring in the story. Maybe the character is holding back for some reason, or fighting uncharacteristically ruthlessly.
• WIS / Writer Induced Stupidity – When something happens in the plot due to the writer not doing research on a character’s prior abilities."

So, to press this point, I'm going to detail this particular Jean/Magneto example.

Magneto's mental defenses have held up to Phoenix Force Jean Grey, and he defeated her in Uncanny X-Men #112. And then his willpower alone stalemated Classic Xavier's telepathy in Uncanny X-Men #150. And then he jammed Jean's psi-powers with his magnetic powers in Uncanny X-Men #304. And then, on top of this, he has a helmet that affords additional protection against telepathy. When I point out all of this and bring up the point that he can use these defenses in tandem, you have some Jean fans who want to ignore ALL of these feats and claim that Jean getting into his head in Revolution was legitimate. I've seen you come at me personally for making rebuttals like this against Jean fans. To be honest, it's not fair. I don't think on it, but if you want to come at me personally, I have a right to defend myself. By the way, this is not a personal attack at you, I'm just pointing out your double-standard since you've accused me of that in the past.

3) Marvel is trying to sell Jean as the most powerful telepath right now, but she still struggles with feats that Classic Xavier has previously surpassed by leaps and bounds. Jean fans want to make their outlandish claims of Jean>Xavier despite the evidence that proves contrary. Other Storm fans and I have provided feats of Storm over the years resisting psis who have matched or exceeded Xavier's classic power levels, and the Jean fandom wants to ignore every last one of those instances, too, in favor of Storm being written less powerfully so that Jean can claim victory. I further detailed through canon how Storm's mental defenses were added to the character intentionally as an aspect of character development going back to Claremont's legendary 17-year run, which was the genesis of Ororo's creation as a character.

So, why the heck is it that when Storm fans bring up stuff like her mental defenses beating out psis like Classic Shadow King, who matched Classic Xavier in power but surpassed him in skill and experience on top of her beating out other psychic threats where the telepaths wield power levels equal to Xavier in addition to other psis added to that power that those instances are always ignored when Storm is being pitted against Jean? If any fanbase is treating their character like they're more than a fictional character and an actual goddess, its the Jean fanbase. There's nothing obsessive or abnormal in pointing the numerous instances where Storm's mental defenses have bested psis of far greater power and skill than Jean, and these psi-characters have the feats to prove their superiorty over her. There is a problem, however, with the constant attempts from the Jean fanbase to try and turn a blind eye to those instances that benefits Storm or when they try and make up crazy arguments of how Jean is a stronger psi than a character like Classic Shadow King, who has mind control the entire planet among other things, which are feats Jean hasn't come anywhere near matching in her entire history without the Phoenix Force amping her. Pulling up instances where he's portrayed weaker isn't a rebuttal, and the forum rules clearly outlaws this style of debating that the Jean fans and other fanbases use especially when dealing with Ororo.

I mean, heck, go back and read the discussion between PyroFN and me in this very thread. Jean and Cable had to strain to communicate with each other across dimensions. Classic Xavier battled Dark Phoenix on EVERY plane of EXISTENCE simultaneously. This is a point I brought up and yet he still claims that Jean is the stronger psi eventhough she's NEVER come anywhere near this feat or other feats Xavier's pulled. And you know why he doesn't? Because he's obsessed with Jean, and he wants to downplay anything that discredits her from being number one. Pointing out Xavier's superiority over Jean by their feats not only knocks Jean down, but it also means she can't beat other characters like Storm and Magneto who have mental defenses even Xavier can't defeat. He, and other Jean fans, don't like that.

Okay, so I've stated and restated this point enough to drive it home. So moving on...

4) When you have a Storm fanbase that has overwhelmingly claimed for years that the character isn't treated as well as other characters by Marvel, then there's a problem, especially when the canon itself supports this claim. And the canon does in this instance. It's especially shocking considering how Storm's popularity among the x-readership was second only to Wolverine's for decades, and she was arguably the most popular female character of Marvel. However, she's been devalued for a long time, and her character has been neglected for the longest time while other characters like Jean always got the attention. Heck, Ororo was even second fiddle to Kitty Pryde for a while. None of these moves makes any business sense whatsoever from Marvel. If the readership really likes a character, you give them what they want by telling interesting stories about said character and developing them further. You don't put the character on the back burner to try and prop up others that run only lukewarm with the fanbase. Can you not understand why so many Storm fans feel that the root cause of such behavior from the company could be rooted in racism?

And, yes, I was banned on another forum accusing Guggenheim of racism for his treatment of Ororo, but I apologized for that on this board realizing I went too far with that. However, I must admit that the charge was based on more than just on his writing of the character, but on company practice in dealing with Ororo going back for decades. A well-written Storm has always been far more popular than a well-written Jean Grey, or any other female. So, why has Marvel always scaled Storm back whenever she and Jean are in the same book while Jean never suffers this same treatment for the sake of any other character? Not only has Storm's power levels and mental defenses suffered from these instances, but so has her development as a character while Jean's character never suffers no matter what the lineup is. Then, this practice with devaluing Storm later continued even when Jean wasn't on the team with her in order to prop up other female characters like Kitty, who has NEVER been that popular with the readership.

So, is this racism from Marvel because they can't stand that the readership preferred Ororo or is it something else? I won't claim it's racism definitively, but I can see how many can arrive at this conclusion when examining the facts. Of course, Marvel has stagnated Storm's character for so long now that hardly anyone outside of her hard core fans really cares for her.

And, by the way, trying to say I'm jealous of Jean (a fake character) or some other such nonsense is a copout for not being able to refute my claims on the merits which are true.

5) Oh, and by the way, I've never spent as much time hitting Jean's character as I've been doing recently. So, nobody can truthfully say I've been going at her this hard for a decade. While I have always tried to fairly argue against Jean whenever she was pitted against one of my favorites (Ororo and Emma), I've always done so by comparing feats. I don't have to try and devalue Jean since the feats speak for themselves.

Also, I have a great appreciation for Selene, but I admit that Jean is a superior telepath to her. So, I am fair.

6) If you'd notice, I generally refrain from personal insults, unlike PyroFN and fans of other bases I've encountered on the internet. The reason why they resort to that is because I (and other Storm fans) hit them with scans and feats that their favorite characters can't beat. When you can't win a debate on the merit, one must resort to personal insults.

7) Oh, and one more thing--the reason I'm the last Storm fan standing is because the others gave up because of the double-standard Storm's character suffers in the debates here. I reacted by being brutally honest about Jean's record compared to other psis and being very persistent in driving home the facts for everyone to see.

@pyrofn: Okay, I'm going to destroy you this last time and then I'm done with this debate.

1) Jean herself admitted she couldn't block Nova while doing other things which contradicted that lie you told when you said Jean blocked Nova plus did other feats.

2) The issue showed Emma was there protecting the X-Men's minds against the villains.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/oFPMV6yTLrDtQ0AAzDv30eBSwfVjkDI3pxVbHTTSrnUDYkUiwYm0Re02jjwSu-TtesFU7cGUO6sO=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/cplb9Clciyixf9jnCadJEVRfK3ubEcQjPfTy9y_cDDNOK6XqicqZUo948Vw64AHVLOuTr846ND0U=s1600

Sinister couldn't get into the X-Men's minds because of Emma. That's why Angel challenged him to read their minds, and he went silent because he couldn't. Then, on the next page, we see Emma protecting the team. So, that same protection extended to Nightcrawler which is what stopped Exodus from taking him out telepathically. What the writer said in the answer to the reader regarding the Emma/Exodus/Nightcrawler situation fits what was going on in the story.

Then, here are the next two pages: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/fIS8qOjFzLH74D3nJSJPdiEAwqddUsnNCrYCdgd2AzYSNxmqLxVkAiR7f1vbK_l53Jc83Hj2wy2M=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Wg3Cu5RO6MO9M55-tcqInqrpccOodiwpodqOEaPi__1XKTu7zKTFmRZ1VpyHv2zCefF5-pTlqIT=s1600

In the case with Jean Grey, she clearly lost to Nova, and she was clearly mindwiped by Xavier against her will.

3) Jean fought Nova with violence: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/xTUus-3sPgr59LKNTpTnIpJ4dLzfauKYV8lOmSJsTcxqqb2kY4tc0J7oZkOFH-CriOcFQRWqxm8th0KpFNLBrh3Z0Uk_MbPOhJCyOcE2YjtfiOvuCJmrOcWT4TKaQrihS9hsErjFHg=s1600

and lost: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/LU6MguV5RZte9vL-E0k7DAjBwq2a_Al9iXcMrjDFx5BnVnLSYpAdIMS-gUCFNiQzuKLHIbIHRKwoB3kmMhNg_-sVBICYNO3KuMWlrdSt0VpE-Gw2ZFbgrnDX-XB_PDT3ZneeDJ7HpA=s1600

Thing is, where the X-Men didn't cross the line is when they opted to use a nanite to stop Nova rather than Gabby inserting something in her that could potentially kill her.

And for the record, this is what it would've looked like if Jean could've kept Nova completely focused on her so that a teammate could infect Nova with the nannite by surprise: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/YgTQza90lt4GWlImreP8NCyLBVj2bTM644MMGuPq39yh8lCiJ5Smp97bVbc8PAeSdKr8id5WHLTp=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/yV63kE6l4uUnTVh5d9YdLqI77rZUhdHcc2m0gcPY2kLn40zt6mngiou502nvUPXwlBgsST952WVm=s1600

It wouldn't have been this: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/LU6MguV5RZte9vL-E0k7DAjBwq2a_Al9iXcMrjDFx5BnVnLSYpAdIMS-gUCFNiQzuKLHIbIHRKwoB3kmMhNg_-sVBICYNO3KuMWlrdSt0VpE-Gw2ZFbgrnDX-XB_PDT3ZneeDJ7HpA=s1600

4) Emma was established to be powerful enough to mind control a city indefintely at the minimum. She was stated to be powerful enough to replicate what Gamesmaster had done, and it took his full power to pull it off. Therefore, Emma's power has to be greater than or equal to GM's power.

5) Ever since the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Saga, Jean's full potential had been centered on the whole Phoenix Force concept. Therefore, when Xavier said that even Phoenix Force Jean shouldn't have been able to pull that feat even aided by Cerebra. Personally, I take his statement with a grain of salt. Phoenix Force-possessed Jean should've been able to do it without Cerebra in my book, but oh, well. That said, it still doesn't erase the fact that Jean was possessed by the Phoenix Force when she did this, and she was boosted by Cerebra.

6) https://2.bp.blogspot.com/j1DPh2TMN7frO9fpQiV8tDyLo65QfGSF2CGyoXzddWO6aQotP_ezy4Tt4bV43-CpORQG8cbSeWvK-ED8y4bIYxB1FG00vAjklEqsxQrg6zE6WZ_WdOMN9l9ClossVY7Q4JGW5xLsJA=s1600

Xavier: "To save herself from attack, Jean transferred herself into the mind of the nearest telepath. That would've been Emma Frost."

This is pretty clear. They were inside a place filled with people when Jean did this. Clearly, she couldn't have sent her mind into the psyche of a normal person. I guess it's because Emma, as a fellow psi, had a body that made it a suitable place for Jean to place herself. A human body doesn't have that kind of psi-potential and the psi-pathways a fellow telepath would have. And again, Jean was only successful in doing this because Emma was virtually dead.

Next, we find out that not only could Emma replicate the feat Jean did, but she could also send her psyche into the minds of regular people. Read what Storm and Iceman said here:https://2.bp.blogspot.com/mRZLwEuBNPibRYRkKtZJAZ_yEGAOV0IaMvZLd7QpKfQhqAsgOIRomqRsY1aPQFmCkomMj5o_Qdlg=s1600

7) Ghost Jean did not do what you said. She essentially merged with Emma and attacked her psychically from the inside. Emma was still in possession of her body, hence even unconscious, she was overpowering Ghost Jean while giving Jeen a run for her money at the same time.

8) Okay, let me say this again. When Gamesmaster said Jean was the only telepath among the X-Men outside of Xavier who could possibly be a threat to him, Emma was not included. She was not a member of the team. Furthermore, the fact that it took all of Gamesmaster's power to pull his feats in the book means all of the telepaths named who could do the same thing had to have power greater than or equal to his. Give it up. You've lost this point.

9) There were a lot of fans coming at him. He was just trying to get them off his back. Again, compare the Emma/Exodus/Dust scans with the Jean/Nova/Gabby scans. They are different as night and day. Jean lost. Exodus was pressed against Emma, but she wasn't stressed against him.

10) Xavier would know everything Phoenix and Dark Phoenix did. Heck, he knew how powerful she was because he fought her, and prior to that, he would've taken measurements of her power. Moira Mactaggart would've done the same. You are really reaching here.

11) The facts don't bear out what Joseph said about Jean rivalling Xavier. His feats of raw power are far greater than hers, and she consistently lost against psis less powerful than he was. Heck, even Shadow King didn't recognize Jean as a threat. He said only Xavier could pose a threat to him in Psi-War.

12) In the scan you produced to claim Jean blocked Onslaught, you forgot to show the rest of the sequence. She only held him off briefly, and as a result of the strength of his probe, her powers were temporarily cut off. She had to run and hide from his telepathy in a TP proof chamber. Also, Onslaught only had a portion of Xavier's power when he did this to her. Had he kept probing, he would've broken into her mind in short order.

13) Emma did not surprise attack Jean when she overpowered her without even trying, and Storm had to stop Emma for Jean's sake: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/R6zOIHczJkrDiALwvAEVhtq_3UUSUU4ONimju5YWm7IvkylLaXeOXM0cF1jrX1VSuCxc0vKErUuB=s1600

Nate was always stronger than Jean: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/MwcSubMiGYacthCGH96_3GfByZ1DlqsVhgKSY2btQ-2QA5gYs0kSluvQ8Nx9ze4Mzbqx2NKqZbxC=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/bECbL0Yzu_53a0pbBDobKOT0NZvEyPY8PAUxSx8CE7j4vmTeK-o9QsmZ0tWf-BoS71ueVlbFWqr-=s1600

Nate's superior power is also why Onslaught wanted to absorb him and not Jean. Also, Onslaught sent Hulk to kill Cable, not Jean, because he viewed Cable as a potential threat to him, not Jean.

Plus, Jean stated that both Cable and X-Man were more powerful than she in 1999: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Qxt9BxwPN5I/VoJPPHlPhdI/AAAAAAAAXqE/5uwB5B1YMI0/s1600-Ic42/RCO016.jpg

14) The writer would've known about the Phoenix Force stuff when he wrote those comments about Jean's potential.

15) Jean had been possessed by the Phoenix Force since issue 120. That was clearly established in the scans I've posted in earlier rebuttals. In the issue you're referring to with Wolverine and Jean about to collide with the sun, maybe it had gone dormant in her for a moment, but then it fully awakened in her.

16) Jeen does not have the feats to compete with Phoenix Force Jean Grey no matter how you cut it. That's like the 90s saying Jean was the second most powerful psi after Xavier, but then she got her butt handed to her by every telepath around. The facts don't bear out the hype.

@vusalaynor said:

@vusalaynor said:

@stormcell said:

@koays said:

Sure are alot of new Jean fan accounts talking for the first time this week huh...?

Probably the same one or two people creating multiple accounts...

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Advanced Telekinetics

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would you mind ignoring the others and responding to my post please? Or should we pm? I would like to know your opinion of her threads so i can counter another users arguments.

I've dealt with these arguments in previous debates. When you have time, you can just go back read them the discussions. It would take far too long for me to deal with all of those scans.

Probably the same one or two people creating multiple accounts...

Another thing, I think it was stated somewhere in the 2004 Excalibur series that Xavier could telepathically find Sinister anywhere in the world and kill him on a whim if he wanted to. Given how Emma has scaled to Xavier in the past, one could argue Sinister blocking her was PIS. Sinister has never been as powerful as Emma if you really look at it.

@phoenixpride:

1) Jean lost to Nova. What he said about the bruises and stuff is just artistic license. This wasn't like Emma vs. Exodus where Dust attacked him internally while Emma occupied his full attention. Jean clearly was not strong enough to pull a tactic like this against Nova. Again, she lost.

2) That was not an alternate timeline version of Emma. That was 90s Emma brought up to the present. She was dressed as 90s Emma and everything. Also, read this page: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/yAiM1txlIwfVrnWd1l4Ps4DbOy5cbWanayo4bLAmB-hnX7U5zC6-2gsEoMxr9SLQIySIngDgZ-aXxzyJSH36yRm1J9axnxmaHbWKMGX0wPV7_jmvfBe8Qa5lr3ZO7rQgnLXeslfzPg=s1600

Cyclops: "They're gone, back into the time stream."

That's a reference to past, present, and future to a timeline. This is not an alternate universe reference.

Emma: "We helped you. Remember that even if we don't."

An alternate version of Emma wouldn't have said that as this wouldn't have been her timeline. She'd have no ties to 616 Cyclops past, present, or future. It was important to her that he remembered, though. In other words, her 90s self was brought to the future to fight and then sent back to her own era after she was no longer needed. In case she forgot when she got sent back, she asked Scott to remember.

Regarding Emma being able to communicate from the sun, to me that isn't a huge feat considering what Xavier and Rachel have done. What's far more impressive is Emma blocking Xavier while she was comatose. What's far more impressive is Emma protecting multiple people's minds from Exodus and Sinister while she's on the other side of the planet and the people she's protecting are standing right in front of the bad guys. What's more impressive is Emma can mind control a city for an indefinite amount of time like Gamesmaster did, and can likely go further than he did given it took his full power to pull it off. What's more impressive is when Emma fought the Phoenix Force, her mental shields were so impressive that the Phoenix literally took the time to study her defenses for weakpoints to direct its attacks. While I'm sure it could've simply overwhelmed her psychic defenses without taking that measure, her doing this means Emma defenses would've held for a while against it and it would've taken quite a bit of time otherwise to overcome.

I say these Emma feats are more impressive because Jean has been scaled against people like Xavier and Exodus and she was far below them in power. Also, Emma has feats that Jean has yet to match. For instance, while Emma has blocked Xavier repeatedly, he easily mindwiped Jean recently against her will eventhough he told her what he was gonna do beforehand.

That said, you fail the realize the damage Marvel did to Jean's credibility in their efforts to present her as the most powerful telepath when it was a strain on her and Cable to telepathically contact each other across dimensions. That means Xavier's power levels have taken a MASSIVE nosedive from their classic levels given he fought the Phoenix Force on all the infinite planes of existence at the same time. This also means Marvel is putting a cap on all the other telepath's upper limits that they'd surpassed in the past given how some of them like Emma and Exodus have scaled to psis like Xavier and Sersi when they could pull feats greater than or equal to what Jean and Cable did.

3) The issue said Jean sent her mind into Emma's body because she was the only other telepath around. Also, Jean was only able to accomplish this because Emma was virutally dead. It was clearly established that Emma could not only replicate Jean's feat, but also send her mind into the bodies of non-telepaths.

4) My argument is relevant. Jean has never demonstrated that she can mind-control an entire city for any length of time. Emma was stated to be that powerful at the minimum.

5) I disagree with you on the PIS thing. Also, I think it was on Marvel.com or somewhere where Mike Carey gave an interview saying Exodus was a more powerful telepath than Sinister, but that Sinister would have measure to take on Exodus if he had to. It may have been another writer, I don't remember. I wish I'd saved the interview, but I know I read it. Sinister may have employed measures for Emma. Who knows? That said, neither Sinister or Exodus can match Xavier, and Emma has feats against Classic Xavier including blocking him while she was comatose. Jean doesn't compare with Emma's feats.

Furthermore, I've already pointed out that Emma was not pressed in her fight with Exodus while he was clearly pressed against her. Hence, she was discussing battle strategy with Cyclops telepathically while she fought Exodus.

6) Nova calling Emma bush league carries no weight when the writer said on-panel that Emma rival's Xavier in power. Nova was just being nasty and arrogant in saying that about Emma, but she showed Nova by sending her back to her prison.

Oh, and one more thing--Jean was a full host to the Phoenix Force in New X-Men. Here are scans from New X-Men #128:https://2.bp.blogspot.com/w4x000SKoMoPztM--VR9McG17p3wAHxd0IPPeg1PWsfRZCA0ZU-YXQHZGhnd8AdWlIdRy2MZw8pW=s1600

Xavier: "Jean...can I talk to the Phoenix?"

The Phoenix Force: "Jean is only the house where I live, Charles." https://2.bp.blogspot.com/l5lsyekCnY0238eWJa0NB2hqKCcnUa9LD6BNHFfKwkr313FXjsB_QtHpu6XaFg8iEHGqusE8jeCo=s1600

So, again, Beast lied when he told Jeen that about her power.

And this is from the issue where Phoenix Force Jean Grey used Cerebra to amply her already Phoenix Force Boosted powers tenfold to split Xavier's mind: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/Rzs7KmyB3DjWxqWF66aOa_3AV9V1tBKW9qZC-SFN7JXnpNAm8y81_T138Za9vXd4kJs2kFXk1WnZ=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pmhAQDzxWLe5MHdjBeS9g-kICEai7P6FJJfuf0kZ-Ag6rYuTAcRltoaz-PYEsvjUVzhx8IPGYJjM=s1600

She was clearly possessed by the Phoenix Force.

Here are other instances showing the possession: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/X2VhZ5Keoq1WmU2g-aXTzGU1e60mxXcvv0HmRV8Bd_IitDDjBdb5Lzi1VIpBcg1qMHmSdz-Tw9nE=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/6Rmi1UMjPPuY5bGY1rhwvl8a9ppbBFR7rmVC6FNchEWI42nd6pipQPLvNi187AFpFATKb1hyonPR=s1600

Phoenix Force Jean Grey: "Just you and me, Emma...You, mean, and the PHOENIX."

Jean had been possessed by the Phoenix Force since issue 120: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/07143FPP7qoFgAbfrCFjIEsmc5h7QigeOi-6kMS71HnhKTP3Y8dzHRELJzGSktODrZREBE_V60lO=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/kf4JlC5RqC-pvSKvYB5YGHhvCVfgJnLohS8RXlGR2QbQ2ZrTNx_9FsklYRDWznhGQb-oLcbL3ZJO=s1600

And in this same issue, when Wolverine said the universe "peed its pants the last time glew up like this," it was an obvious reference to the Dark Phoenix Saga: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/A1hbAm0e-nqYWrPNGxefXuT3QtKSjP86XnbiUYFQRuAFVOoWIW-1wey4-LHfLXql9cBP0jSnUE4a=s1600

So, yes, Jean was possessed in issue 120.

@pyrofn:

1) I forgot to correct a lie you told. Jean NEVER blocked out Nova while doing other things: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/xFxINh8u9U74poNak8TsYxsSSH7_S-TA8AJR5DF-gAirv5FFz3JIZW-ffLciqFLvCbOekU9HFV31OD834x2R_xdIQwAnGRrJSg9SWRAQsFrEGhKFBcOWIbKWtexKOLKyJc2QBwdyAg=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/79dKYAzljjM9gYL5075kn3_wTtoN9arb3ZIlZ_ggbV3AZLWkOdjKW_LMofGJY8saeFkc7IiZ0RRAiVqq1NUTcVbQxcVbPkiqQ_RXq8jH9BNAcqpGBQWIFhbxABu6-fxwsCa_L6GDzQ=s1600

Keep in mind that Jean was trying to protect her teammates from Nova who were standing there with her. Nova was the one who was far away. On the other hand, Emma was protecting the minds of her teammates from both Exodus and Sinister while they were standing next to the bad guys and she was on the other side of the world.

2) Nova thought Gabby was trying to kill her because she stabbed her in the head with her claws. This does nothing to bolster your argument for Jean who lost to Nova. If Jean were the more powerful telepath, she would've been able to either subdue Nova so her teammates could inject the nannite sentinel in her head or occupied her full attention like Emma did to Exodus when Dust attacked him internally. This would've allowed Gabby to inject Nova. But Jean wasn't strong enough to do either as she got clobbered.

Side note: Exodus had to expend every ounce of his power and concentration to fight Emma while she was communicating with Cyclops about strategy telepathically. Exodus was pressed in that fight, Emma wasn't.

3) 90s Emma was more powerful than Jean, too. Jean has never shown the power to mentally enslave a city for an indefinite period of time. 90s Emma was stated to be that powerful at the minimum. Till this day, Jean has never been established to be strong enough to send her mind into the body of a baseline human, let alone a conscious one. In fact, such a feat was impossible for her. Emma can. Exodus was a hard fight for a weakened Xavier while Jean recently got clobbered by Nova who is weaker than Xavier.

When Karma possesses someone, that's not the same thing as what Jean did when Emma all but vacated her own body. Jean literally sent her mind into Emma's vacated body--something she wouldn't have been capable of had Emma been in any level of control of herself. Karma merely takes hold of someone else's spirit and makes their will her own which is completely different. Her mind stays in her own body when she does this.

When Jean split Xavier's consciousness into the mind of every mutant on the planet, she was boosted by both the Phoenix Force AND Cerebra. So, this was Phoenix Force Jean Grey whose power was boosted 10 fold. This feat doesn't count. I'm not surprised you're trying to use Phoenix Force Jean Grey feats in this debate since you're clearly losing. You should know such tactics don't work on me.

3) Jean NEVER sent her mind into someone else's body when they were conscious or a non-telepath. Those scans you brought up were pointless. Literally, when Xavier scanned for Jean, he found her in Emma's body because Jean had transferred her entire psyche into Emma the same way Nova used Cerebra to boost her power tenfold to transfer her psyche into Xavier. Again, Jean wouldn't have been able to pull this feat if Emma hadn't all but vacated her own body to being with. Also, it was established that Jean was limited to doing to this a fellow telepath only while Emma can do it to anybody and they don't have to vacate their own minds to begin with. And by the way, Emma practically dead at the moment. There were no defenses for Jean to get past to pull this feat.

4) Gamesmaster said Jean was the only telepath AMONG THE X-Men outside out of Xavier who could *POSSIBLY* challenge him. That eliminates people like Emma, Mastermind, Shadow King, and Selene were not members of the X-Men. Also, his statement was not definite. He said "possibly". In other words, he was unsure if Jean was even strong enough to be a threat to him, so he elected to eliminate her just in case.

5) I'm going by "Word of God" statements here because a reader asked the writer why Exodus didn't just shut Nightcrawler down telepathically when NC targeted him. The writer answered that Exodus couldn't because Emma was protecting NC's mind. Furthermore, the issue established that Emma's mental presence was there protecting the X-Men's mind from the villains. In the "Word of God" quotes you want to use, what the writer says on twitter contradicts what was written in the actual issue. For instance, Xavier mindwiped Jean Grey recently against her will and told her he was going to do it before he pulled it off. No "Word of God" comment is going to change those facts. The writer obviously said that to appease the Jean Brigade who assaulted him for hours for writing that. The same thing happened when Jean lost to Nova. The Jean Brigade came after the writer who said that Jean was getting Nova into position just to get the Jean fans off his back. If you read the actual issue, Jean clearly lost that fight, and that's what angered the Jean fanbase. If Jean were powerful enough, and if she were only trying to get Nova into position, she would've either subdued Nova or occupied her so completely that Gabby (or any teammate) could inject her from behind without Nova being aware of what was happening to her.

Jean fans can't take it when Jean loses eventhough losing to other psis is what Jean has done best for decades.

The Emma instance is as different as night and day from the Jean circumstances.

6) Xavier keeps Cerebro files on the X-Men and their enemies. So, yes, Beast would know all of Phoenix Force Jean Grey's feats. Teen Jean was nowhere near that powerful. Tenn Jean never turned a tree into gold (a feat Dark Phoenix pulled on Beast, no less), she never opened stargates, she never devoured a star, she never lifted a lake from a lake bed and held it in mid-air, etc.

7) Jospeh overstated Jean's power. By the way, that was 90s Jean that Joseph was referencing. Jean was fodder to Exodus who was stated to be weaker than Xavier. Onslaught destroyed Jean when he only had access to a portion of Xavier's power. Also, Jean Grey NEVER blocked Onslaught's power in the 90s. She was working with Cable to do that, and Cable was stated to be a more powerful psi than Jean in the "Onslaught" series. Furthermore, a near-death Mastermind had Jean on the ropes when he wasn't even trying to hurt her because he loved her. 90s Jean got overpowered by Emma, X-Man, Legion, Stryfe, and other psis.

Finally, Jean doesn't have the feats against Classic Xavier Emma has.

As far as the other scans speaking about Jean's potential, these statements were made back when she was one of the few people around who could host the Phoenix Force, and her full potential had always been centered on the Phoenix Force concept. Again, this is not helping you since we're talking about non-Phoenix Force Jean Grey.

8) That was not an alternate reality Emma that defeated Xavier Junior. That was 90s Emma from Generation X brought to the present.