Setherial

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I don't remember TAO being able to affect non-human organisms with his ability to manipulate. That said, I doubt psychological manipulation which would work on humans would have any effect on an extra-dimensional god perhaps millions of years old. And without that, TAO has zero chance of hurting Shuma-Gorath physically.

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Chucky wins.

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@living_monstrosity said:

@hardcorefakes said:

@magnetictempest said:

@hardcorefakes: nope. Shuma has shown himself to be a threat to the universe. Cant say the same for nyar - he SERVES threats to the universe.

Nyarlathotep is certainly universal threat.

Good god; he serves AVATHOTH. His main messenger for god's sake! Of course he is on the scale of the universe! Again, Nyarlathotep would not even register Shuma. Shuma is SHIT outside his own damn realm. Hell, Nyarly could warp Shuma's own realm away, while dealing with other more important issues.

So serving someone really powerful means you're also really powerful? That's not true by default.

Nyar isn't even as big as one of Shuma's appendages.

Shuma stomps.

FAIL.

The fact that Azathoth (creator of the universe) even references Nyarly as his messenger is telling. As stated, he is an Outer God. And is inconceivable to most that come in contact with his true form. Again, he could probably wipe out most life in this galactic cluster.

Isn't even as big as one of his appendages? There are two things wrong with this; he can change his size to whatever he wants. Also, it's not like his size matters. He could erase him from existence. Nyarly doesn't have perceive Shuma on a physical scale. He's not like Galactus, or Imperiex. He is on a whole different plane of existence; far beyond Shuma. Again, Nyarly probably could care less about Shuma.

Nyarly blinks and Shuma is wiped from existence, along with every memory of him mortals have.

Have to agree with L_M here. Azathoth needs to stop being mentioned because the scope of Azathoth's power is completely irrelevant in this "battle" between Nyarlathotep and Shuma-Gorath. Shuma has changed his form and size before so it negates any advantage Nyarlathotep's form changing would have had. You do also realize that Shuma-Gorath isn't its physical body, right? Shuma-Gorath is sentient chaotic energy that others perceive as a one-eyed, tentacled monster or sometimes that tentacled/spider-legged monstrosity. Shuma comes from a different plane of existence as well - 1,000 planes of existence away from Earth to be exact. He has threatened the entire cosmos before and garnered attention from extensively powerful magic beings and even one of the prime abstracts of the Marvel universe (Death). What exactly has Nyarlathotep done to put him in Shuma-Gorath's league?

Nothing.

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#5  Edited By Setherial

@setherial said:

@jackknight said:

@setherial said:

@jackknight said:

@heymanjack said:

Enerjak wins. He destroys multi-verses with his bare hands. Sise-neg had to prep for literally billions of years and he became an embodiment of the universe or in some people's interpretation, the multiverse which Enerjak can destroy with his bare hands.

Actually Sise-Neg was more then universal, I'd say he was close to omniversal.

Where are people getting these "Sise-Neg needed years of prep" ideas from? I've seen "1,000 years" "10,000 years" "billions of years", etc. It's never stated how long it took for Sise-Neg to carry out his plan once he discovered he could do it, but Sise-Neg could travel to essentially any point in time in any universe. If he can time-travel at will, then it's pretty obvious that he can traverse the span of eons in an instant, thus there would be no gaps in time for him.

So who do you think wins? I'd say it would be a stalemate.

Depends. What's Enerjak's highest feat?

Well I did say that when Mammoth Mogul had some of Enerjak's powers he was destroying millions of universes with his bare hands.

From the scan I see it looks like the hands are destroying large galaxies within a universe. It's impressive, but has Enerjak displayed significant powers of creation or has his power only been shown to destroy things?

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@setherial said:

@jackknight said:

@heymanjack said:

Enerjak wins. He destroys multi-verses with his bare hands. Sise-neg had to prep for literally billions of years and he became an embodiment of the universe or in some people's interpretation, the multiverse which Enerjak can destroy with his bare hands.

Actually Sise-Neg was more then universal, I'd say he was close to omniversal.

Where are people getting these "Sise-Neg needed years of prep" ideas from? I've seen "1,000 years" "10,000 years" "billions of years", etc. It's never stated how long it took for Sise-Neg to carry out his plan once he discovered he could do it, but Sise-Neg could travel to essentially any point in time in any universe. If he can time-travel at will, then it's pretty obvious that he can traverse the span of eons in an instant, thus there would be no gaps in time for him.

So who do you think wins? I'd say it would be a stalemate.

Depends. What's Enerjak's highest feat?

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@heymanjack said:

Enerjak wins. He destroys multi-verses with his bare hands. Sise-neg had to prep for literally billions of years and he became an embodiment of the universe or in some people's interpretation, the multiverse which Enerjak can destroy with his bare hands.

Actually Sise-Neg was more then universal, I'd say he was close to omniversal.

Where are people getting these "Sise-Neg needed years of prep" ideas from? I've seen "1,000 years" "10,000 years" "billions of years", etc. It's never stated how long it took for Sise-Neg to carry out his plan once he discovered he could do it, but Sise-Neg could travel to essentially any point in time in any universe. If he can time-travel at will, then it's pretty obvious that he can traverse the span of eons in an instant, thus there would be no gaps in time for him.

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#8  Edited By Setherial
@killemall said:

@setherial said:

@killemall:

Well I don't need to fill this post with scans since, yet again, your evidence primarily boils down to "oh they said universe, not multiverse or omniverse". I've seen this over 100 times and it's always the same flawed argument. When the word "universe" is used it can refer to just a single reality or all existing realities depending on the context of the story that is using the term, and when actually looking at the context of the story and not just looking at the words like we're all still in elementary school, "Time Doom" and "Sise-Neg Genesis" were beyond universal in scope.

Thats not true, not to mention that is people just making excuse.

Not only is the issue continuously talking about universe, we have on panel pretty clearly stated "a cosmos" no amount of word play is going to change that.

Furthermore, what you are repeatedly ignoring is marvel handbook that clearly refers to Sise-Neg clearly states everything in terms of universe as well.

You have to somehow have to prove why bio then explained it in terms of universe , unless you are saying people who are writing the bio have no idea what you are talking about.

So, again, you're harping on a single term without looking at the context of the story. Good to know.

@killemall said:

We also have Steven Engelhart, himself, explained the whole stuff are universal, so that not only is an underwhelming proof to suggest its scope is multiverse, its outright contradicted by everything:

1. On panal evidence.

2. Bio.

3. Writers commentary.

1) On-panel evidence shows Sise-Neg toying with multiple universes and remaking all reality. I don't know what on-panel evidence you're using to say he was restricted to universal - and not even that since you've come up with this silly argument that he just let a Big Bang set off behind him while he was floating there, despite the clear evidence to the contrary.

2) Bio references Sise-Neg himself saying he will recreate the Marvel universe. Then has a note with the bio maker's opinion about what he thought Sise-Neg appeared to do. If that's your evidence...lol

3) Actually, we have Steve Englehart saying that he gave the whole Sise-Neg arc in Marvel Premiere no more thought beyond what he put on the page. Many writers for comics in both DC and Marvel have responsed to fan questions about the story with "I'm not sure" or "I never really thought about that" so running to the writer can't be used as proof, especially since many of them are more ignorant about the implications of what they publish in the first place concerning the rest of Marvel. Using Englehart's response as proof gets you nowhere considering all Steve Englehart said when it comes down to it is that he never put any thought into it beyond what he put on the page. It's funny that you'd criticize use of Marvel.com, which has pages reviewed by writers/editors at Marvel, yet use the story writer's comments equating to "never gave it much thought" as clear cut proof. XD

@killemall said:

@setherial said:

@killemall:

Well I don't need to fill this post with scans since, yet again, your evidence primarily boils down to "oh they said universe, not multiverse or omniverse". I've seen this over 100 times and it's always the same flawed argument. When the word "universe" is used it can refer to just a single reality or all existing realities depending on the context of the story that is using the term, and when actually looking at the context of the story and not just looking at the words like we're all still in elementary school, "Time Doom" and "Sise-Neg Genesis" were beyond universal in scope.

Thats not true, not to mention that is people just making excuse.

Not only is the issue continuously talking about universe, we have on panel pretty clearly stated "a cosmos" no amount of word play is going to change that.

Furthermore, what you are repeatedly ignoring is marvel handbook that clearly refers to Sise-Neg clearly states everything in terms of universe as well.

You have to somehow have to prove why bio then explained it in terms of universe , unless you are saying people who are writing the bio have no idea what you are talking about.

We also have Steven Engelhart, himself, explained the whole stuff are universal, so that not only is an underwhelming proof to suggest its scope is multiverse, its outright contradicted by everything:

1. On panal evidence.

2. Bio.

3. Writers commentary.

Also the whole attempted insult is completely un-necessary when there is so much proof supporting my view as opposed to yours mate. You can call it "elementary school thinking" or whatever you like, doesnt change the fact that on panel evidence, bio and writer commentary not only does not support your wanking of Sise-Neg it outright contradicts it.

So yes, we will need evidence, enough to actually suggest it was multiversal, beyond the overwhelming evidence pretty cearly, unambiguously saying its universal.

Overwhelming evidence? No. You're continuously harping on one word being used, and putting in the writer's comment surmounting to "gee, never really gave it much thought" as evidence. I'm confused because you seem to be contradicting yourself. You say he only remade one universe and at the same time you say he didn't even remake one universe. Which is it, according to you? You're throwing arguments with two different outcomes here.

I have to laugh that you're getting offended saying I gave an unnecessary insult since you began this whole argument with a condescending tone and said I turned into 7am. I remember when you used to be a humble viner that was nice to people. Now all of a sudden you've got this huge ego. I understand getting a lot of followers does that to people, but some humility is in order.

@killemall said:

You're going to tell me that Sise-Neg's time period (Reality 691) and all the other realities they stopped in were in the same single universe (Reality 616)? Come on now. There's not a single comic that suggests that future realities are located within the prime reality. Every point in time outside the present is a completely separate universe, whether it be the past or the future.

Firstly i would like to see you substantiate that last part please.

Thats not true, at all.

Every point in time are NOT set completely out in a seperate universe, Eternity, is time. Is is Embodiment of ALL time in the universe, you are telling me Eternity himself is outside various seperate universe.

As per why reality 691 is different from 616, its because its on the many potential futures of the universe.

Its much better shown quite recently through Legion.

Uhm, all potential futures of Reality 616 are located in separate universes outside the 616 Reality. You won't find a single story arc that shows the future as if it were Reality 616. All potential futures/timelines of Reality 616 take place in alternate realities that are held outside the 616 universe. The 616 Reality is always in the present, whereas all futures are located in other universes until Reality 616 reaches that point in time in the future where that future took place. From there it will either flow with Reality 616 making it the future for that point in time, or it goes off into its own timeline when the 616 Reality reaches that point in time and bypasses it since it wasn't the clear/exact future for that specific point in time. And it goes without saying that all pasts of 616 are located in alternate universes.

@killemall said:

Not to mention i am not contesting Sise-Neg power wasnt perhaps more than universal (which i dont have to given the bio collaborates it perfectly) but that his own on panel feat was universal.

Again Marvel Handbook are official publication, granted they are considered a second hand source of information against issue, when a scope of something in the issue is pretty repeatedly addressed as universal, and the bio does exactly that, together with writer's commentary, its pretty silly to try and argue about it.

Here writer confirming its only universe.

Not only does the writer outright say it was only a universe he goes so far to compare his feat with Eternity, saying Eternity feat was clearly his isnt.

That undermines your whole argument that it was a multiverse, stated universe.

Bio says - universe

Writer says - universe.

Comics itselfs says - universe

You and few fans would say multiverse

Given the overwhelming proof on the side of the universe and honestly apart from people making a big deal about the universe and "beyond" or him absorbing energies from the Void, while travelling throught time in the universe, there is nothing to substantiate it was multiverse to begin with.

Haha, you need to look at Steve Englehart's reply because he never says outright that it was only a universe. He says he never thought about it beyond what he put on the page. The whole sentence regarding Eternity just shows that Englehart gave that story arc more thought about that subject than the Sise-Neg one. That's it. You're making way more out of it than necessary.

Nobody is making a big deal about Sise-Neg stated that the universe and beyond will be his to control. It's the character with said feat telling us exactly what he is going to do. Sise-Neg absorbing from the void already showed us he had influence beyond a single universe, and if you knew what the creation of the universe entailed in Marvel, you'd know that Sise-Neg replicating the effects of the Big Bang shows that he re-created more than just the 616 Reality.

@killemall said:

Neither of this is even relevant to what we are questioning, we are questioning his untimate feat, and that was pretty clearly universal.

Nope. And there's a huge flaw in your reasoning right there. You say you aren't questioning that Sise-Neg absorbed from his point in time in the 31st Century all the way down through the dawn of creation, yet you say his ultimate feat was universal. Given that Sise-Neg restored all eras with his burst of magic power at the end, its impossible for the feat to simply be "universal" when every era is its own timeline.

@killemall said:

Prove it.

Show me where it says he restored timelineS/ Reality.

The entirety of story lies on one time line and multiple.

"Soundlessly, everything explodes, mushrooming from the point where, for a moment, all extant power had been held..."(who held all existing power? Sise-Neg did as we see that he has absorbed all the magical energy in addition to all time and space)

..."Riding forward through time until they reach, once again, their proper era!(Reality 616)"

No Caption Provided

As anyone can see clearly, it's artistically illustrated and outright stated that Doctor Strange and Baron Mordo rode Sise-Neg's explosion all the way forward in time until they reached their proper era - the present aka Reality 616. For them to reach their present (Reality 616) and for Sise-Neg to have recreated "exactly as it was", all of the 616 reality's pasts had to have been restored as well - and as said before, every past is located in a completely separate, alternate universe outside the 616 Reality - as such multiple universes were restored/recreated. I'm amazed that this is so hard to grasp for some people.

@killemall said:

Sise-Neg didn't stop in pocket cosmos's because he didn't care about stopping in any pocket realms.

Substantiate this self made claim please.

Show me one instance that suggest Sise-Neg didnt stop on any pocket Cosmos because he didnt care about stopping in any reals??

Making out own story here are we??

It's using logic, buddy. Sise-Neg's entire purpose was to absorb all the magical energy in existence and reach the dawn of creation to become god. He didn't care about fighting anyone, nor did he care on going off on some separate task. What would the point be in going to pocket realms? Was he going to stop there for tea time? Hey, why didn't I stop at Wendy's this morning when I was on my way to work? I'll tell you why, because I had a job to do and all going to Wendy's would accomplish is sidetrack me from my morning's ultimate purpose.

@killemall said:

Again i am not 7am mate, i am not saying he did not absorb extradimensional energy because it was different, i am saying he did not absorb any extradimensional cosmos, because the scope of the story doesnt extend that far.

He absorb Shuma Gorath's power on Earth, that also doesnt change the fact that Shuma's own realm is actually filled with mystical energy.

Would you like me to substantiate that ??

Its the scope of the story that doesnt even include a single alternate realty, let alone some of the highest dimensions like dimension of manifest.

Doesn't include a single alternate reality... except 18th Century France, early 6th Century period of King Arthur, Sodom and Gomorrah, Prehistoric Earth, a void located in between any realities, then Sise-Neg recreating everything exactly as it was and returning Strange and Mordo to their present, which would require him to restore all 616's pasts which are all located in alternate universes.

Yeah, single universe my foot.

@killemall said:

As to the idea that Sise-Neg just floated there and let the Big Bang explode from nowhere... -_- It's pretty funny that you say, "And its pretty much unarguable that the first the universe was created, using the big bang, Sise Neg had nothing to do with it" when the only thing you have backing up that idea is Strange questioning whether he saw the second creation or the first creation. Sorry, but you can't use speculation from a fallible character as definitive proof for one side or another.

Unless you have pretty clearly closed yours eyes and saying lets pretend he doesnt have proof, i dont see how i am only using Strange "questioning" it.

Again, lets to it one more time.

Dr. Strange on panel questioning the feat, he would even go so far to quote Einstein to justify his view.

Is that the only thing, absolutely no. His statement is perfectly collaborated by Marvel bio (i like how you posted Marvel Wiki and pretended it was a bio)

A statement made by the character, the prime character of the story, who goes so far to quote Einstein by itself becomes hard to ignore, let alone when its perfectly collaborated with Marvel Handbook.

Furthermore, collaborated perfectly by the writers commentary as well:

So we have a statement in comics, backed by bio, backed by writer's commentary, not to mention pefectly logical question, but your argument or rather a cop out from it is because Dr. Strange is a "fallible character".

It doesnt get any more infallible than multiple second hand collaboration.

So to you proof is accumulating a bunch of uncertainties. Great. But that's not proof.

I'll take Sise-Neg himself saying that he will recreate everything as it was + the narration saying the burst of power came from where all extant power had been held + the panel showing Sise-Neg as the one holding all extant power as superior proof to Doctor Strange not knowing whether or not he saw the first or second creation and a footnote in a bio. Using clearly defined statements and depictions over a fallible character's struggle to come to terms with what he saw is not a copout. Oh, but according to you Doctor Strange's internal struggle is better proof that Sise-Neg did nothing because he quoted Einstein. lol wth

@killemall said:

Btw, Marvel.com's Marvel Universe bio states that Sise-Neg recreated the universe. http://marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe"...He (Sise-Neg) was continually drawn back further and further in time, encountering Doctor Strange along the way, until he reached the beginning of time itself and found he had ultimately absorbed near-infinite power. Finally discovering himself to be a god but realizing that he had a responsibility to re-create reality, Sise-Neg released his power to create a Big Bang."

Thats a wiki mate not sure why you would go so far to quote a wiki, not to mention the wiki does nothing to substantiate the core of your argument that it was a multiverse.

Not to mention that wiki is directly contradicted by an actual published Handbook.

This is the actual Handbook Publication mate

Great, and if you'll notice the handbook just questioned itself. It recounts Sise-Neg saying that he will be the one recreating and then adds a brief note at the end from the bio author that accounts to nothing more than "did he really? because it looked like this..." So your argument lies on questions and statements that equate to "hm... never really thought about it".

@killemall said:

You ask "if Sise-Neg wasn't there, would anything have changed?" And to that I say, Sise-Neg may not have changed the universe to suit his image, but I doubt the universe would be "exactly as it was" if he let a Big Bang erupt behind him and just sat there considering he was holding all the magical energy in existence within his body.

Thats actually a pretty fair view there though.

That still doesnt change the fact that official publication has gone far to question the same feat, on panel, on bio and an unofficial reply from the writer does the same.

You wanna say the feat is clear, you have to somehow try to counter the panel evidence, and the bio, alongside writer's commentary.

Not to mention that not all you are doing, you are then claiming its scope is FAR greater than that, and extends to entire marvel actuality, which is NOT even once mentioned in the issue, unless you belive a universe and the Void is all the marvel actuality is all about.

It's just more proof that the burst of power that did the recreating came from Sise-Neg himself and not another source. The panel states quite clearly that that explosion came from where "all extant power" had been held.

Firstly i dont understand the purpose of scan in this case, sure Sise-Neg was melded into the universe, he became God, not contesting that, he also uses the power of big bang, which by no means is mystical energy alone, to create the universe.

What i am questioning, and so is the issue and the bio, is , did he really do anything above what would have normally happened if he had let creation take its place, because it looks like he didnt, apart from distributing his mystical energies to where it belong, throughout the universe.

And that still does not even remotely substantiate it being anything beyond universal mate, which is what on panel evidence, bio, and writer commentary agree. You and a couple of fans are the only ones that disagree.

Sise-Neg not only held all the magical energy in existence, but he also held all time and space within his body, as that very scan even says so.

Sise-Neg absorbed all existing energy across all realities. There are very few that can claim to have done what Sise-Neg did (Alien Entity with Reed's mind, Entropy/Genis, Thanos with the Heart of the Infinite, and the Infinity Being which was the originator). These are the only times that all space and time was returned to the void and in all cases it was everything that was recreated.

@rolldestroyer said:

@setherial:

a few points id like to add, you say that if we look into the context of the story it's clear that it's the multiverse when in fact you're not even looking into the story itself, the 31st century being earth 691 is from an entirely different comic, let's look into the relevant comic:

to quote strange: i must follow them both into time -- for the power of sese-neg is the greatest threat to our reality

so tell me, if those timelines are alternate universes don't you think strange would have noted that sise neg would be a threat to other realities as well?

another thing, in the end sise-neg pretty clearly uses the terms dimension and universe interchangeably:

when we know in the same issue he references shuma's dimension:

Edit: another example: .........your superiority over me in our reality, but when i discovered the book of cagliostro and how i could alter that reality to become supreme.

so it's clear that while time travelling he's affecting only that 1 reality, still want to argue on this part?

so looking closely into the context of the story it's pretty clear that nothing other than a universe/dimension was invlolved.

and please, don't come with evidence outside the comic itself, because the whole concept of "alternate timelines are alternate universes" isn't used in all comics.

Look into the relevant comic? Excuse me, but please find the smallest example that the 31st Century that Sise-Neg came from is in the same universe as Reality 616. Strange saying Sise-Neg is the greatest threat his reality has ever seen does not confine Sise-Neg to a single universe and I'm not sure why you would think so. Strange also says that Sise-Neg could change ALL reality by simply willing it, before Sise-Neg, from a completely separate universe, forces Strange into a vortex within a void between time that takes him to that completely separate universe that holds the past.

No Caption Provided

I already addressed to Killemall above why it was more than a single reality that was effected. Not going to type it again in the same post.

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#9  Edited By Setherial

@killemall:

Well I don't need to fill this post with scans since, yet again, your evidence primarily boils down to "oh they said universe, not multiverse or omniverse". I've seen this over 100 times and it's always the same flawed argument. When the word "universe" is used it can refer to just a single reality or all existing realities depending on the context of the story that is using the term, and when actually looking at the context of the story and not just looking at the words like we're all still in elementary school, "Time Doom" and "Sise-Neg Genesis" were beyond universal in scope.

You're going to tell me that Sise-Neg's time period (Reality 691) and all the other realities they stopped in were in the same single universe (Reality 616)? Come on now. There's not a single comic that suggests that future realities are located within the prime reality. Every point in time outside the present is a completely separate universe, whether it be the past or the future. Sise-Neg states that he absorbed from his point in time (31st Century) and he continued to do so until he reached the dawn of creation. In order to absorb from his future timeline all the way to the dawn of creation he had to have absorbed magical energy from realities outside the 616 reality since both the future and the past are located in alternate realities: 18th Century France, early 6th Century period of King Arthur, Sodom and Gomorrah, Prehistoric Earth - all those stops that Sise-Neg made were alternate realities (universes) from Reality 616. Hell he even absorbed the magical energy from Strange and Mordo as they were in a "void between time" completely outside of any other universe. Finally when he unleashed his magical power at the end he returned Strange and Mordo to their era and restored all eras (timelines/realities) that had existed. Each timeline is part of its own separate universe, thus Sise-Neg restored all universes when he restored all timelines.

Btw, Sise-Neg only confronts mystical beings on Earth because he was interested in who on Earth at that point in time held such a mammoth concentration of mystical energy. Everything else was absorbed from afar. Sise-Neg didn't stop in pocket cosmos's because he didn't care about stopping in any pocket realms. It had nothing to do with realms having different types of magic - he easily absorbs from Shuma-Gorath, a magical entity that is extra-dimensional in origin and composed of alien energy that was potent enough to be capable of harming advanced mystics (Kaluu).

As to the idea that Sise-Neg just floated there and let the Big Bang explode from nowhere... -_- It's pretty funny that you say, "And its pretty much unarguable that the first the universe was created, using the big bang, Sise Neg had nothing to do with it" when the only thing you have backing up that idea is Strange questioning whether he saw the second creation or the first creation. Sorry, but you can't use speculation from a fallible character as definitive proof for one side or another. In the sentence before that he says Mordo saw the second creation, so he never came to a conclusion either way. Not only that, but we actually see that explosive blast of power come from Sise-Neg's body, not anywhere else. And there's always the on panel statement of Sise-Neg himself saying that HE will recreate the universe exactly as it was, which of course takes precedence over speculation from Strange or a brief footnote in a Marvel bio. Btw, Marvel.com's Marvel Universe bio states that Sise-Neg recreated the universe. http://marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe"...He (Sise-Neg) was continually drawn back further and further in time, encountering Doctor Strange along the way, until he reached the beginning of time itself and found he had ultimately absorbed near-infinite power. Finally discovering himself to be a god but realizing that he had a responsibility to re-create reality, Sise-Neg released his power to create a Big Bang."

You ask "if Sise-Neg wasn't there, would anything have changed?" And to that I say, Sise-Neg may not have changed the universe to suit his image, but I doubt the universe would be "exactly as it was" if he let a Big Bang erupt behind him and just sat there considering he was holding all the magical energy in existence within his body.

It's just more proof that the burst of power that did the recreating came from Sise-Neg himself and not another source. The panel states quite clearly that that explosion came from where "all extant power" had been held.

No Caption Provided

Who held all extant energy? Well, if the story arc showing Sise-Neg forcibly absorbing all the magical energy in existence is any indication - Sise-Neg did, as this panel so generously illustrates.

"Time, space, it all melts into power, power with a name - - Sise-Neg!"

No Caption Provided

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Shuma-Gorath is clearly multiversal+, maybe Omniversal level with his conquering of many dimensions, his mere presence destroying Galaxies, no evidence of LT or Eternity existing when he did in 616 (implying he beat them) and more. Yet Lucifer is still more powerful so he wins.

That's stretching Shuma's power a big deal. At most he's a threat to one cosmos at a time.

Shuma existing in a reality isn't evidence that he beat LT or Eternity, otherwise every god within its domain could be said to have defeated the abstracts and LT because the god has control over the realm. Shuma-Gorath conquering dimensions doesn't go against the cosmic balance, so the prime abstracts and LT don't bother with him (aside from Lady Death in Thanos Imperative but that was when the Cancerverse threatened her very existence).