kenshiroo's forum posts

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#1 Edited by kenshiroo (1080 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmic_reign said:

and Eternity did NOT say he can't...he said he WON'T!!

He said he will not restore it because he can't. These powers do not belong him.

if not, why Eternity did not restore his powers if he supposedly had the power to do so?

Anyways, you seem to be adding invisible feats like: Cyttorak negating the other Octessence and Vishanti.

Cyttorak negated Seraphim and Watoomb’s attacks. What does prevent this not occur with the rest of the Principalities’ attacks? Not mention, during the Wager of the Octessence, Cyttorak’s avatar defeated most of them.

Vishanti was unable to respond Dr. Strange’s spells for aid within CC. Why? Are they afraid of Cyttorak?, are they negated by him? or are both things?

Not mention Dr. Strange was absolutely helpless, owned and was about to be killed in fast and forceful way by Cyttorak until he managed to bring Jugg in order to break free, while Nova was swiftly knocked out by Cyttorak.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/33916/4758527-dr+strange+sorcerer+supreme+442.jpg

Otherwise, in Agamotto’s realm, Dr Strange was able to stand a fight against him twice and even he could destroy one of his many forms (caterpillar form) by summoning Cyttorak’s Crimson Bands and other Principalities’ spells.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/33916/4707701-1808030-dr_strange_sorcerer_supreme_07.jpg

Obviously Dr. Strange can not defeat Agamotto in his own realm (Agamotto will be reformed himself always in whatever he wants) but at least he caused a pain in his ass for a while. Also, Dr. Strange deceived and blackmailed him.

Strange always was very humble and fearful to Cyttorak but has not been the same case with Agamotto (One of the Vishanti's members). Strange has always disrespected him so much several times.

All this prove that Cyttorak is feared by other Principalities (Vishanti), the same Dr. Strange and that he can negate all their magic spells or attacks.

Your judgement and arguments are clouded by your love for these characters...find it in youself to realize that your beloved Cytorrak and Juggs are NOT FLAWLESS!!

Your desire does not change the facts.

In your minds eye, I have not "refuted" anything you said because of your inability to admit that your favorite characters can and DID lose in these scenarios!!

AGAIN--

I am content that we disagree!!

Again, I have no problem that you disagree with me, the point is you have not refuted anything I’ve explained.

Also, I have no problem to admit the weaknesses of Cyttorak, for example, one aspect of him (destructive or demonic form) can be banished from this physical universe, he is isolated and imprisoned himself in his own crimson universe and can only access this reality through a magical conduit, portal or via his avatar, the Juggernaut. Cyttorak’s evil influence over the mind and spirit of his avatar may be weakened if the host remains being softhearted and loses the desires to follow the path of destruction, violence, revenge, anger and lust for power. This entails as a consequence the avatar would be depowered or being excommunicated by Cyttorak.

The thing about these characters is that they were developed by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby for the sole purpose of being powerfully unstoppable (for example, when this was stated in the writer panel box about how Cyttorak overpowered the four elemental forces of the universe) and being able to promote the best effort of a good teamwork in the case of the X-Men to defeat him (the Juggernaut) without fear to try to kill him. Cyttorak is an immensely powerful mystical being that can only be used to create contrast situations within himself and to generate an existential conflict and ambivalence to his avatar.

Some prominent and reputed vinners as Deadpool or Korg think the same way.

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#2 Posted by kenshiroo (1080 posts) - - Show Bio

@kenshiroo:

Funny how in the CC, Cytorrak gets KO'd by his 616 avatar, then gets rescued by a 616 mage...again, IN THE CRIMSON COSMOS!!

Funny is how Jugg’s attack was in vain since Cyttorak deprived him of his powers when he dared to attack him.

Cytorrak's best feat during that war was cracking a Seraphim shield...but could not stop Watoomb from snatching Strange right out of his hands.

Watoomb snatching Dr. Strange from Cyttorak’s hands is irrelevant because Strange wanted to escape from all of them. The feat here, is how Cyttorak’s presence negated all their attacks (Vishanti, Watoomb, the Seraphim, or any other Deity) as it was demonstrated.

We are not debating Exemplars, we're debating their power sources!!

The Exemplars are examples of their power sources, outside of their realms.

Your final paragraph somewhat co-signs my arguments.

I corrected your unsupported arguments.

Strange sought out Eternity and asked him to grant/RESTORE ALL the powers/magic that were stripped from him so he can fight Dormmamu.

Nope, Dr. Strange wanted to meet the Goddess so he demanded from Eternity to help him with that. For that, Dr. Strange entered into a challenge with Eternity, who put an absent-minded Ancient One to fight against Stephen.

After Dr. Strange won, Eternity told him he can’t restore his mystical powers, he only could make him privy to that which the Goddess had in mind. Only Dr. Strange eventually regained the patronage of the Principalities’ powers after the War of the Seven Spheres finished and the Vishanti returned him to Earth.

You believe Cytorrak and Juggs to be flawless, I DISAGREE!!

I'm content to leave it at that!!

I have no problem that you disagree with me, the point is you have not refuted anything I’ve explained.

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#3 Edited by kenshiroo (1080 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmic_reign said:

@kenshiroo:

Thnx for bringing up a different occasion where Cytorrak loses in his own home....I was actually addressing when Juggs knocked Cytorrak straight the f*ck out and took his gem right off his forehead!!

Again, Cyttorak never lost in his own domain since he is the CC, he just fooled and enfeebled Jugg when he took off his empty gem of his forehead. Jugg foolishly thought he "defeated" himwhen in fact he did not. Read between quotes the word “defeat” on the panel.

Anyways, you seem to be very familiar with these characters so I don't see how it's hard to admit at very least that these may have been just low feats!!

These are not low feats since Cyttorak is the source of Jugg’s powers and enfeebled him when he dared to attack him, just by deceiving him with a humanoid form and empty Gem.

Plz elaborate on how Cytorrak is greater than the rest of the Octessence by merely dishing out threats, which he did nothing about other than cracking a Seriphin*(spell check) shield.

Cyttorak was negating the Seraphim's power shield by cracking it and Watoomb’s power. He threatened to destroy all them if need be, but he did not because Dr Strange managed to escape of them until he run into the Vishanti. Cyttorak realized about that first, ceased his attack and arrogantly or with authority claimed the sorcerer for him again in front of the Vishanti...

The point, the Vishanti, Watoomb, the Seraphim, or any other Deity can not effectively use their power against Cyttorak because his presence negates their powers as it was demonstrated during the War of the Seven Spheres.

Not mention Cyttorak’s avatar defeated most of the Octessence’s avatars (The Exemplars). The Exemplars swept the floor with the most powerful Marvel’s.superheroes: Thor, Iron man, Spiderman, Professor Xavier and Beast, all of them were badly beaten up, helpless and they ended up imprisoned by the Exemplars.

Later, the Exemplars again swept the floor with all the Avengers (Iron Man, Thor, Wonder Man, Wasp, Firestar, Nova, Quicksilver, Spiderman, Hercules, Scarlet Witch, Hank Pym and Justice) who were about to be slaughtered by them.

It's understood that Cytorrak is the source of Juggs power, but when he losses in his own dimension, it's almost credible to think that it was CAIN, as a normal human, that KO'd Cytorrak...

The problem with that, Cain was enfeebled by Cyttorak when he dared to attack him, so Jugg lost all his powers thanks to Cyttorak, therefore, it does not count as a defeat to Cyttorak.

Being outside the 616 multiverse is NOT a feat in itself--

Fractions of Cyttorak energies destroying the continuum space-time of an unearthly universe and borrowed to take the control of the very fabric of the physical universe are astounding and unmatched feats.

--Consider this...

616 entities would be considered outside the CC or any other extra-dimensional uni/multiverse as the latter is considered outside the mainstream uni/multiverse....

Only extradimensional higher tier mystic beings, for example, Cyttorak or Shuma Gorath are outside and isolated of Eternity’s multiverse (within Omniverse) because they are multiverse threats. They prey these physical universes in their own way.

The evil magical essence of Cyttorak's demonic form, Shuma or Zom, for example, could prey the physical universe 616 just by attacking the reality with their mere presence.

That said, the mainstream entities are just as unfathomable to these extra-dimensional entities and vice versa...

Nope, since both Cyttorak and Shuma are conquerors of worlds and they constantly need to feed on the path of destruction and energies obtained either by the worship, sacrifices, parasitism or siphoning (this last Shuma Gorath’s case). They are trying to conquest the universe 616 from eons before.

Strange, a 616 human mage, was the most sought out entity during the War of the 7 Spheres(war outside 616), where every combatant in the war fought for his abilities!!

According to Marvel, all dimensions are reachable at any time from anywhere, only if the traveler is powerful and knowledgeable enough. Dr. Strange is not a mere or ordinary magic user, he is the best and most powerful and skilled supreme sorcerer. He was highly trained in the mystical arts by Ancient One and the black mystic arts by Kaluu, he is a worshipper and magic user of the Principalities so he does have enough knowledge and power to travel between the barriers of the outer planes as Magik could do it as well.

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#4 Posted by kenshiroo (1080 posts) - - Show Bio

i would say he jas more raw power because i believe he has the ability to just wipe the multiverse,

Phillip33, as far as I know, LT with his full powers only can turn off suns (by accelerating the evolution of the Sun, causing the outbreak in nova to destroy others planets) and seal or isolate physical universes, but he can not destroy or wipe out them. This was demonstrated in Korvac arc.

its just the nature of his power that limits him against higher tier mystics.

That is the correct answer.

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#5 Posted by kenshiroo (1080 posts) - - Show Bio

ok, I didn't know you couldn't forcefully summon something... Although I'm sure you can there doesn't seem to be any on panel evidence of it...

Just by invoking, summoning, spelling the name of the Principality is how he could get that mystical power at his disposal because he lacks of such power. It is how it works, it was stated by Marvel, not me. This is clearly evidenced on panel where LT is summoning such powers.

LT can not get to force a Principality to get his mystical power because he can't produce that magic and he can’t overcome it by his own cosmic powers.

What about my initial point I made though? I still believe that the LT wields more raw power than any of these magic user, but doesn't match up well in a fight against them.

I don’t think LT would have more raw power because if not, he would not need to use borrowed magic (of these Principalities) to boost himself. However, I would agree with you that he can not fight against them and therefore he can only exile or banish them out of this Multiverse.

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#6 Edited by kenshiroo (1080 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmic_reign said:

I suppose the come back/arguments are fairly impressive when trying to explain why Cytorrak LOST to his own avatar in his own backyard and in other scenarios!!

Cyttorak never had lost against his avatar in his own backyard since he is the power source of the Juggernaut. Only once the Cyttorak’s destructive form was destroyed briefly when his power was redirected against him in the moment that Gomur and Tar restored the binding energies of Cain with Cyttorak’s Gem. In this moment Cain was able to get out from the CC through Cyttorak by punching him. Technically it would not be considered a defeat because his avatar (the Juggernaut) is the representation of his powers outside of CC. If he could not enter on this world personified by his destructive aspect, he did it through his avatar, the Juggernaut.

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Again, the apparent "unconsciousness" did not represent any victory for Juggernaut since Cyttorak is the source of his powers and Jugg was fooled by him. Such Cyttorak’s godhood humanoid physical form only serves to communicate a part of him with lesser beings (physical beings). The rest, Cyttorak drained Jugg’s energies (while Jugg thought he stole his powers by catching an empty Gem) and was watching the whole show in the CC as nothing (because he is the same Crimson universe itself) to assess the loyalty of his worshipers (Dr. Strange and Nova).

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Cyttorak stated he is all the CC and not a mere humanoid form that he wears occasionally to communicate with physical lesser beings.

However, whatever the case is, Cytorrak still GOT PUNKED pretty bad in these showings...

For all who have decontextualized the facts and lowballed the character is a wrong argument. This I’ve explained before.

Threats are nothing but meaningless words when not backed or supported by feats.

Omitting the facts and backed explanation and accusing others of not bringing evidence don’t help to have any seriousness and criteria to debate.

Juggs bum-rushed Hulk with his unstoppable force, and did push Hulk back till enough was enough, then was easily defeated!!

Juggernaut was not defeated as I’ve explained before.

So yes, Cytorrak does have some good high level feats...but some low ones as well that can be exposed when debating.

I know all the strengths and weaknesses about these two characters (Cyttorak and Juggernaut) and until now there are no low feats.

@phillip33 said:

On the other hand however, the LT could also employ mystical energies to disable a higher tier mystical opponent.

LT can not use magic of the Principalities against them, because he is a worshiper and magic user of them. The Principalities are higher tier mystical beings of pure magic.

The source of magical power that invokes LT comes from pure magical beings from others dimensions different to Eternity’s multiverse. These beings are called Principalities; they offer their magical batteries to supply the calls or aids from magic users such as the LT, Ancient One, Zom, Dormammu, Baron Mordo, Morgan Le Fay, among others. Simply, the LT will be unable to use the magic of these Principalities if he dares to use their powers against them. It can not work. He will not be authorized to use that high mystical power of those who give him that power.

LT only can summon their power to fight against other magic users such as sorcerer, wizards, lesser demons or earthly gods.

In your scans it says he uses the power of some mystical entity to attack someone, but i dont see where it says he had to pray or ask for it. He could have just taken the power.

User magic only can use the powers of these Principalities by invoking his name with incantations or gestures (is a type of Exocentric magic).

http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/appendixes/magapp.htm

On the panel clearly the LT summoned the Flame of Faltine, he called the name of Flames of Faltine unto himself. Also with speak and gesture he called the name of the sign of Seraphim and roving rings of Raggadorr. The only way he can use their magical powers is by calling their name and with a gesture.That is the way to ask permission of the mystical power of the Principalities.

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#7 Posted by kenshiroo (1080 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Edited by kenshiroo (1080 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmic_reign said:

BUT...the Crimson Cosmos was effected/destroyed by the Nemesis Wave...

Nope, Crimson Cosmos never was affected by that. Where does CC appear destroyed by Nemesis ?

Cyttorak lost to his own avatar (Juggs) @ least on 2 occasions and 1 being in the CC...

Nope, first, Jugg’s powers comes from Cyttorak, second, when Jugg was trapped in CC, Gomurr linked Cyttorak’s power into Cain again and he could destroy a Cyttorak’s aspect briefly in one punch as if he was passing through a doorway to escape from CC. The other occasion, Cyttorak said the Jugg was fooled by “defeating” a mere humanoid image that a part of him uses to communicate with lesser beings (physical beings) when in fact Cyttorak is all the Crimson universe and the ultimate source of his powers.

Cytorrak also was amongst some of the most powerful magical entities that were all hesitant to confront the Serpent, an ODIN LEVEL god...

Cain could cast out the Serpent with Cyttorak's power but he choose not do it and the Serpent's avatar was overpowered and almost killed by new Cyttorak’s avatar hosted in Colossus. Cyttorak easily outclasses Odin level god.

During the War of the 7 Spheres, Cytorrak made plenty of threats to the other Principalities over Doctor Strange(a human mage from 616), but couldn't do anything after Watoomb snatched Stange from his grasp...

Cyttorak negated all the powers of the other Principalities and threatened to destroy all them if it is necessary.

Also, Apocalypse, while testing out a fraction of Celestial technology that he hardly understood on Hulk, was able to easily defeat Juggs in an ultimate test of power!!

Nope, it was necessary to power Hulk up with that Celestial tech to carry him at least at the same level of the Juggernaut's power and stand a brawl with him. Hulk boosted with Apocalypse's enhancements (made with Celestial tech) which increased his strength far beyond his limits, had already been pushed back all over Egypt by Juggernaut just until the time when Hulk was able to pause him for a second, matching his strength. However, Hulk was aware that he could not hold it for too long which is why he used the whip to grab Juggernaut by the feet and threw him enough away to remove him from the battlefield.

After a few exchanges of blows, it is curious that Hulk had to rely on the Apocalypse’s enhancements with the use of a whip and a sword to try at least to be an apparently threat to Juggernaut. Hulk only with his sword tried to threaten to behead Jugg, a threat in Hulk's words that was put into question no matter that Creed appeared in that moment because Juggernaut can't be killed by any physical means. Actually nobody proved to be stronger than other. Even Marvel Green Mail stated that.

“Apocalypse’s enhancements did increase the Hulk’s strength, Steve, so in #457 did not give a true indication as to who is stronger, Hulk or Juggernaut” Green Mail Hulk #465.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/33916/4408400-1352256-war_hulk.png

It is easy to overlook these details and say that one wins over another when in reality it was not so.

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#9 Edited by kenshiroo (1080 posts) - - Show Bio

In my humble opinion, the Mystical side is more powerful because magic simply overpowers all known physical laws encompassed by Eternity’s universe Earth-616 and the Multiverse. These physical universes are composed of the same space and time or physical properties governed only by primary cosmic entities (Eternity, LT, etc).

On the contrary, the Crimson Cosmos, for example, is an outer plane, a timeless Universe (which encompass other realms) located within the Omniverse, where the physical laws are ruled by the magic of Cyttorak at his will. The Death and Oblivion (the most powerful cosmic abstract entities of the physical multiverse) do not exist there because the physical quantities or universal hierarchies of power such as the time, death or entropy do not exist on CC and can not harm or affect the Juggernaut and much less Cyttorak himself.

Marvel OHOTMU says that realms or universes lacking of Eternity’s multiverse hierarchies of power are located within the Omniverse and the Crimson Cosmos is one of them.

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The Stan Lee’s soap box says Cyttorak’s Crimson Cosmos is a timeless magical Universe, which encompass other far-flung dimensions. The CC absolutely lacks Eternity’s physical properties and cosmic hierarchies of power.

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Crimson Cosmos again, reiterated by Ancient One as a magical universe without time and confirmed by Cyclops and Jean Grey.

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According to Marvel, the definition of Cosmos = a Universe (virtually infinite amount of space) ordered and integrated whole. The perfect definition of the Crimson Cosmos.

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And the Crimson Cosmos is an Outer Plane= a magical universe not connected or concerned with what happens in Earth’s dimension (or Eternity’s dimension) and where the laws of physical world fall away. Again this reiterates, the CC is outside of the Living Tribunal's jurisdiction.

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Second, is stated Cyttorak’s magical powers overpowers the elemental forces of nature or the four physical interactions of the Universe known by the physical laws as we know. The elemental forces of nature are four physical systems interactions which hold integrated molecularly the matter and the reality of the Eternity’s multiverse.

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These four elemental forces of nature (universe) are:

Gravitational

Electromagnetic

Strong nuclear

Weak nuclear

The Stan Lee’s soap box refers how Cyttorak’s magical power outclasses the four elemental forces of the physical Universe pointed out above, and as an example is proved how Magneto by using his full electromagnetic power (one of the fundamental forces of the physical universe) tries to crush the Juggernaut mystical armor. However, his full electromagnetic power was absolutely stomped, dwarfed, negated and useless because Cyttorak’s magic overpowers the four physical systems interactions that make up the existence of the Eternity’s multiverse. It was stated by Stan Lee, not me.

Juggernaut is the powerhouse agent, magically empowered by Cyttorak, who represents a fraction of his powers outside of the CC. Jugg has proved to be immortal, unkillable, indestructible, immune to death, time (aging) and molecular destruction by the powers and physical forces of cosmic beings that govern the multiverse as Eternity and Oblivion (ultimate entropy). Their cosmic powers proved to be useless to destroy the Juggernaut.

According to the original canon written by Stan Lee, Oblivion has shown to be unable to kill Juggernaut by aging him or erase him into the void, confessing that his presence was an annoying infection inside of its void that could not be voided out of existence so he spat him out of his realm in exchange of a fraction of Cyttorak’s powers. For that, Oblivion just created an illusion to deceive Juggernaut by making him believe he was aging or dying. Juggernaut was spat from Oblivion's realm and returned to the Earth. This fact showed that Cyttorak has more influence on the Juggernaut’s existence than Oblivion even inside within Oblivion's own realm, in other words, Cyttorak was negating Oblivion's power to obliterate the Jugg even inside Oblivion's own realm.

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Jugg has survived to the void of Oblivion, the ultimate Entropy. Oblivion, who is the most powerful of the four cosmic brother’s forces: Eternity, Infinity and Death, even was used by Mikaboshi to destroy almost all of the Multiverse but it could not wipe out Jugg from the existence.

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The same fractions of magical energies of Cyttorak can warp the reality and destroy the very fabric of space and time of any universe (magical or physical, for example the Trion’s universe and Eternity’s universe respectively).

Plundering Cyttorak’s energies from Juggernaut, D'Spayre (a mighty Fear Lord) was boosted to a near-omnipotent state, being able to briefly take control the entire fabrics of the Universe (Earth-616). This happened after Cain got out from Cyttorak’s Gem (in X-Men Unlimited #12), after his imprisonment by Onslaught as it pointed out in a reference on the panel. D’Spayre also stated Jugg is a supplier of near-unlimited power.

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D’Spayre used his new reality warping powers (pointed out on Universal scale) by creating demonic hordes, opening a gateway to Oblivion, and reducing the Juggernaut into a skeleton at one point until an enraged Juggernaut managed to defeat him. All this was performed with a fraction of Cyttorak's energy borrowed from Jugg. Jugg survived an attack of molecular disintegration on a universal scale.

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During the Trion Saga, the Trion's dark side possessed the Juggernaut by tapping into Cyttorak's power in order to power up his avatar into a potential universe busting level. Jugg was enabled to physically crush and tear down multiple dimensional barriers by punching them with his physical force, in order to find and kill the powerful Trion Gods (creators of the Triple Evil force). During his rampage, the Juggernaut ripped through the continuum space and time to pass out from one dimension to another, which caused the merger of several dimensions. Moreover, Juggernaut was able to split the very fabric of space-time itself with a fraction of Cyttorak’s energies whose rupture was leading the outer void stage through the unearthly Trion’s universe in which he was. At the end, if Storm had not channeled magical energies from Mojo's realm to heal the unearthly Trion's universe, the entire universe and its inhabitants had been destroyed. This feat confirms and proves once again, that a fraction of Cyttorak's energies not only allow to control the very fabric of a Universe also could destroy it.

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A fraction of Cyttorak’s energies teared a hole right through the very fabric of space-time of Trion Universe, leading its full outer void stage.

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For those who think Trion’s universe is a “pocket” dimension, in the comic panels clearly is showed is a whole infinite universe where the traditional laws of physics does not apply and are chaotic and impressively unpredictable. The writer stated: “Is a fact Wolverine could fall forever”, this proves Trion’s dimension is composed by a virtually infinite amount of space. According to OHOTMU a dimension can be called a universe as long as has a virtually infinite amount of space.

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Even is stated clearly Trion’s dimension is called as Universe, so the Trion’s dimension definitively is not a pocket dimension, so a fraction of Cyttorak's energies destroyed the very fabric of single universe.

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If a small fraction of Cyttorak's energies could tear hole right through the very fabric of space-time of Trion Universe, leading its outer void stage then a larger amount of Cyttorak's energies could destroy it in one fell swoop.

These examples conclusively prove how the extradimensional Magic >>>>>>>>>>>> Cosmic (or physical properties and interactions which compose it).

Not to mention, how even the Living Tribunal is a magic user of the Octessence (Cytorrak, Watoomb, Raggadorr, Balthakk, Krakkan, Farallah, Ikonn and Valtorr) and others extradimensional magical beings such as Denak or Faltine. He must worship them to invoke the magical powers of these Principalities for aid, through gestures and spells (permission mode) in order to be boosted to fight and stand a match against Nebulos (extradimensional being) with his Staff of Polar Power.

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LT had to request permission of these Principalities (for example, by summoning the flames of Faltine) in order to be granted with that magical power that amplified his cosmic powers at that point, he was able to stand a match against a being of extradimensional origin who could manipulate magic, or when LT fought against Dr. Strange.

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If the LT’s cosmic powers were more powerful than the magic then he would not have the need to resort spells in order to have this source of power at his disposal and use it to fight against other magic users.

I have no doubt about Magic>>>>>>>>>Cosmic

As a note to avoid making erroneous analogies, the magic of extradimensional mystical beings like Cyttorak, the rest of the Octessence, Shuma Gorath, Denak or Faltine outclasses the magic of Elder gods, lesser demons (mephisto, satannish, etc), skyfathers or the Council of Godheads who are related to Earth’s origins.

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#10 Edited by kenshiroo (1080 posts) - - Show Bio

How powerful are the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak? Well, we will see that are so powerful as the same strands of energy that hold this UNIVERSE TOGETHER.

Magic users can summon some mystic Principalities spell but their magic intensity and effectiveness depends on what level of concentration are their wielders in that moment. This is the reason because the Cyttorak band’s strength is sometimes affected by their wielder's power and skill; additionally, if the wielder is trying to protect the target from mystic injury, the force of the target’s resistance may be reflected back upon the wielder. Hulk and Namor have each broken the Crimson Bands only under such circumstances.

This even was said by Marvel Cyttorak’s Bio, from OHOTMU

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In such examples we see how the resistances of Cyttorak's bands were weakened when Strange in his astral form lost his concentration and almost all his spiritual strength after being violently expelled from Namor’s mind who was dominated by an uncontrollable homicidal rage.Dr. Strange barely had the strength to return to his body.

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By protecting Namor’s mind in his astral form, Dr Strange was hurled back and his target’s resistance was reflected back upon him as well due he lost concentration and strength, so Namor could break the Crimson Bands only under such circumstance.

Cyttorak bands are absolutely indestructible. Even Dr. Strange stated Cyttorak’s mystical bands are completely indestructible because they are composed of the same strands of energy that hold the Universe structured and No physical force in the world should even come close to rattling them (like the Hulk for example).

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This reinforces that someone who could steal Cyttorak’s energies can control the very fabric of the Universe or destroy it if that the case, as when happened with D'Spayre, who plundered a fraction of Cyttorak’s energies from Jugg in order to briefly take control over the Universe and warp it or when another fraction was released from Juggenaut’s body within Trion’s universe and tore an immeasurable hole right into the fabric of space and time which started a void that almost destroyed their whole universe.

Returning to the explanation about how the Crimson band's resistance would be affected according to the level of concentration of the magic user. The same thing happened with Hulk, Strange was not using all his mystical power and spiritual energy to put a strong effect on Cyttorak’s bands because much of it was used to keep his concentration on his astral form, call the mystical effects of Agamotto’s eye over the Fantastic Four and still hold the Hulk for a while at the same time. Therefore, his Cyttorak’s bands spells were not strong enough to hold him up, so the mystical force over the Hulk’s resistance was reflected back upon Dr. Strange because his attention was dispersed to protect him from the Fantastic Four and the attack of the Human Torch, so then, Hulk just broke the bands only under that circumstance.

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Quite contrary, Dr. Strange without using his astral form (which consumes much of his mystical energy) and completely focused on his target was able to summon the Cyttorak’s crimson bands to fully immobilize or entrap the savage Hulk. In normal conditions, Dr. Strange can invoke the crimson bands with normal resistance so it showed how Cyttorak's bands are totally indestructible, unaffected or unbreakable against the brute force of Savage Hulk punches, who was locked on or entrapped into a Cyttorak’s bands sphere, three times, being unable to even scratch the bands.

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Only if the concentration of the magic user is affected the enchantment disappears (as it was explained before), in this case Hulk can not break the crimson bands with his punches but can maneuver inside the sphere by jumping off which caused the loss of concentration of Dr. Strange and therefore, the dissolution of his crimson bands incantations.

Another prove about Cyttorak’s bands are completely unbreakable against savage Hulk’s strength or punches.

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Dr. Strange releases briefly Hulk but then he encloses him again and then he finally releases him for his aid at the right time.

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So in this way Hulk was absolutely owned and overpowered by Cyttorak’s unbreakable bands summoned by a magic user. Is not a surprise since the Juggernaut proved to be stronger than Hulk several times. Cyttorak's mystical power overpowers natural physical laws or forces of nature, not only on Hulk, also on Magneto’s full powers. Let's see:

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Hulk and Magneto’s full powers are useless against the Juggernaut (fractions of Cyttorak's powers).

Cyttorak makes the Juggernaut Immortal and Indestructible.

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Even Onslaught (in his primary incorporeal form had impressive psionic reality warping powers) was afraid of Cyttorak's power and confessed that can’t kill the Juggernaut because he is indestructible as long as he stays bonded to Cyttorak.

Recall that Onslaught’s psionic warping powers could separate the Gem from him and locked him in the Crimson Cosmos, stripped of his powers by creating a massive pisonic display where he molecularly handled his links with Cyttorak (illusion of ripping the gem of his chest). Nobody can do this to Juggernaut without a molecular manipulation, in this case via psionic warping power.

Second, the Gem was mystically fused to Juggernaut’s body. Onslaught separating Juggernaut from the Crimson Gem of Cyttorak is something that not even Doc Strange was able to do. Even the Sorcerer Supreme was shocked by the power of this feat (because that was not magical) and indeed, Onslaught did more than any supreme sorcerer, he ripped molecularly the Gem out of Cain. He trapped Cain’s soul and mind within the Gem via molecular manipulation and molecular teleportation.