Johnni_Kun

@deaditegonzo: Your biggest issue is clearly that you dont know what subjectivity is. Because you dont think Wonder Woman is portrayed equally doesnt mean she isn't. The fact you dont have a problem with how ANY other character is written in Batman's presence shows your bias. I know I have a bias, I admitted my opinion is based on perception, you still hold the delusion that your biased opinion is somehow fact.

I need to ask you, when did I say that I didn’t have a problem with the portrayal Batman/WW relationship? Go back and look. I never said anything any such thing. I clearly stated that their relationship was the superior way of handle trinity pairing.

Theres a big difference in what we are debating, because you still figured havent figured out that your opinion is just that. Just as an example, are you denying that she had better combat feats in the last two books than Superman? Are you denying that Superman was the one fawning over Wondy, and not the other way around? Or are you just trying to continue creating strawman version of my argument?

I only have the first issue digitally. The rest are physical copies. I’m been planning on doing a complete analyst when the arc is finished. I'm going to make a blog post of all my probelms with it. As well as when I have the scans to back them up my claims. You can choose to continue this debate then. Until then I'm going to hold off this part and focus on the BM/WW. Which, seem like what OP originally wanted to know. If you really care you can go through my old posts in my profile to see some accounts on the inequality that you may had missed.

We dont have one, so it is based on assumption, which is based on the historical evidence we do have. Supes has looked like a punk in all the team up books he's had with Batman. So did Green Lantern. So has Lex Luthor and Bizarro. Want me to keep going? My opinion is, if every other character has suffered with Batman, why would I want any more of my favorite characters put on the line by being paired with Batman? And dont argue something I didnt even say, respond to exactly what I am saying.

Or you can base an opinion on how there non-romantic relationship is shown. You based your argument using moments with every character that is not Wonder Woman. Correct? How can you possibly say that is a proper way of making a judgment call? Isn’t this point here in your argument based around ignorance? Their competitive feats are usually in her favor. (Like they should be.) I’ve posted earlier images showing how their interactions are shown. And how the differ from other characters involved with Batman. Actually, it’s harder to find moments of Batman having the upper hand, in both the confrontational and non confrontational moments.

This is all subjective as well. How can you expect anyone to debate what basically amounts to you saying "I am enjoying Batman Superman". Uh, ok, have fun reading it, I guess? for what its worth, I loved the first arc, the second arc with Mongul was just ok (it was sort of campy for my taste), and the last one was pretty good, except the Batforce was in full effect. So, cool we compared our notes on how good Superman/Batman is. Back on topic, out of three arcs, Superman has already been made a fool of once. Supes is one of my favorite characters, Wondy is another personal favorite, I dont like seeing Supes get jobbed, but I definitely dont want it to happen to Wonder Woman as well.

I could argue that everything is subjective. So we just have to agree to disagree. I didn’t even want to debate their interactions anyway. If wasn’t related to the original topic at hand. Actually, I’m going to discredit anything from the future, just so the thread doesn’t get more derailed.

I also think you've built up your own vision of what the DC universe is, and you dont realize that your version of DC isnt the canon one (case in point, you dont like the current Superman, and yet he is the version the actual world builders are using). In a debate with another human being, may I suggest mentally compartmentalizing your preferences from actual facts? Because in every statement, it seems that you have the idea that your version of the universe should be/ is the factual one, when in fact it is not. Arguing what you believe "SHOULD BE" is absolutely fine in my book, but make sure you present it as such, presenting it from an objective standpoint is intellectually dishonest.

Thanks for the advice. However, didn't you say and I quote; "Batman is a plot black hole, anyone with him is immediately sucked in. They stop having any characterization and become plot devices for him", earlier in this thread? Is this objective? Certainly doesn't sound like it. But, maybe I am wrong.

My whole point has been the negative impact Batman has on other characters. I dont know what you think you're debating. I believe Wondy will be horribly treated because every other character is. And I do think it is severe. Which is why ive said it before and i'll say it again: its perception. What in your mind is totally acceptable may not be to anyone else. You might think it was ok for Batman to for example, pull an armbar on Wonder Woman like BP did to Silver Surfer, but I wouldnt (its just an example).

I understand that. However, I don’t see how it is relevant to the matter at hand. You basing an argument on how one character will be treated, from the interactions of a completely different character. That like saying Batman’s encounters with green arrow is good indicator of how his relationship would be written with Black Canary. Should I base an opinion on how Batman and Batgirl’s relationship will be from how he interacts with Nightwing? Or maybe instead of that, I should base an opinion on how they interact with their previous actual encounters together? What kind of logic is that? It doesn’t relate to their relationship in the slightest. Those are not even valued points. That is called stereotyping. This is argument drench ignorance. Other heroes might get the short end of the stick with Batman. But, Wonder Woman rarely ever does, at all. You have to base your opinion on how their actual relationship is portrayed in the comics. Regardless of what it is. And if you know anything with them that is in the comics, you would see that your assumption is wrong.

EVERYONE IS BIASED! Everyone wants their favorite heroes to look cool. I dont look down on people who are Batman fans, even when they are fans of the honest to goodness BatGod. I do however look down on people with a false sense of enlightenment. The most enlightened thing a person can say they are just human, with human thoughts and opinions.

However it does seem like there is a connection between the two. I defended Batman and you insinuate and insulted my intelligence, saying that I don’t know any better because of my “Batfadom.” That’s does sound like you are A.) Looking down on me. And B.) Because of involvement with Batman.

Perhaps if you don’t want the unnecessary attention you shouldn’t go around calling people that defend Batman, Batfanboys.

You said I shouldn’t present my opinions as facts. However, what is considered a “false sense of enlightenment?” It seems to me that could mean very different things. As well with very different outcomes of opinions. It seems that you think that there is only one true way of thinking. That doesn’t sound like you fallow your own advice.

If you dont think im fit to have an opinion, then it's easy, dont reply. You sure seem concerned with everything I have to say for thinking im not fit to have an opinion.

I feel just same as you do. You present your opinions as facts, so I responded. It that simple and I will continue if there’s something I don’t agree with. Just as I’m sure you will.

A big problem with Batman is one that Neil Gaiman pointed out before me, I will let you do some research, its called: running the asylum. Have fun expanding your opinions.

I can’t find it. If you could provide a link, or maybe summaries that would be nice. Having said that, one man’s opinion does not define a character. However, it is interesting to hear other people interpretations on these characters. Every character can easily have their flaws pinpointed. Just look at the opinions of Superman and Aquama.. Doesn’t make it true, it doesn’t make not true.

Perhaps your next post should focus on the actual portrayal of their friendship, partnership or Romantic relationship. Until then, I don't see how your agrument has any merit to it.

@deaditegonzo: Wonder Woman has saved Superman's a** twice against HIS OWN villains. If I was as insecure as some of the others on here, I could even make the argument that Superman has been portrayed as the submissive partner in the relationship. Which honestly, even if he is, I DONT CARE. The problem for you and people like you is that youre looking at each showing of Supes and Wondy as a competition, instead of how it all comes together in the narrative.

It's perfectly fair to bring up competitive points when the narrative is one sided in most of its execution. Everything revolves around Clark. The story, concepts and even the characters. Diana's whole world is Clark in that book. Which I find funny that you don't have a problem with, considering that you said that it was a fault in how she is portrayed in DCAU regarding Batman. But I digress......

Whereas with Batman, she would have to be gimped just to make him relevant. Imagine Wondy having a scuffle with the Olympians in a Batman/Wonder Woman comic. Anything Batman contributed would be PIS.

Again, you don't know that. Batman could very much be forced in a different situation. He could face weaker enemies. Or could be forced with other objectives not relating in what WW is physically doing. This happens most of the in his team ups with heroes, anyways. All you have is assumption with this Batman/WW. That because this is no Batman/WW.

Everyone is gimped when they are with other Superheroes. That doesn't mean it would weight on to the story and characters to an unpleasant degree. Take Batman/Superman as an example. Obvious Superman doesn't need help, but that is the concept of the book. The Story is still good, and characterization of the character remain intact that are still enjoyably. B/S Stories usual main problem is, characters needing to be there. And the minor instances with Superman, rarely(if that) affect him as a character. They are practically semi canon in their relevance.

We just disagree. Its a severe difference in perception, with your batfandom and my preference for literally any other character. Just as an example, I dont even particularly like Cyborg, but when Batman does something with gadgets that Cyborg couldnt figure out: IT PISSES ME OFF. Its insulting to weaken another character, just to make the "normal human" (who everyone likes because he's "just a man") look useful.

Again, it seems like all you can do is throw insults. How do you expect to be taken seriously, when all you do is form your opinion in such a childish matter. I however, do care about these characters; the only difference is I understand the natures of fictional concepts. Something you apparently don't. Every character has a part to play. And if you really cared about the characters being limited then why don't you have a problem with the ones that are not related to Batman? When characters that were not intended in their creation interact with each other, they overlaps in powers and abilities. Superman has to be the strongest, even though Flash has shown being able to handle just as strong as enemies. And yet he's stuck being the "fast guy." Same goes with Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman and most of all Captain Marvel.(Shazam) Who was actually shown to be Superman's equal (and possibly superior), yet he was held back (or depowered) to make Superman more relevant in most of their interactions. However, you only see the problem with Batman. That because you don't realize that he's already gimped. He is gimped because he has no Super powers. They are vastly superior to him and this is what you do not understand. There is nothing that writers can do to change that at the end of the day. So, actually they are all limited in some way or another. You just don't want to see it that way. I think before you complain maybe you should try understanding the concepts of these books.

And maybe you should just accept this is how Superman is now, and that the pre52 is never coming back. Either get with the program or move on.

The dictator mentally is not a good one to live your life by. I'm sure if it was something negative to you, wouldn't be so willing to just "get with the program." This is also very funny considering that you choose not to “get with the program”, of Batman’s relevance with other heroes. Of course I'm sure that's different........

For my last statement, I would say you should look at any team up book that Batman has been in since the New52 started, from the less popular characters perspectives. I will give you an example from the first six issues of Justice League to consider: Batman STEALS Hal Jordans ring. Regardless of concentration, the ring has an auto shield. WTF?

Yeah, it's stupid. But, apparently Johns changed the rules. He also made Superman punked Flash. Flash would be able to dodge Superman’s finger flick before Supes even had a chance to hit him.

Or how about this: As I posted above, the only time K-nite instantly turns Superman into jelly is when Batman is involved. K-Nite Man < Batman. Metallo < Batman. Knite In Superman's Brain < Batman. Kryptonite Men + Superdoom + 5D Imp + Occasional Red Sun < Batman. Be objective here, actually think about it. Superman is made to look like a b****, only when Batman is around.

I don't know what you are trying accomplish here. I never said the Superman wasn’t portrayed poorly at times. I said that is wasn't severe as you like to make it seem. Kryptonite is a weakness to Superman. And it always has varied in terms of degree from writer to writer. Do I agree with it? No. Do I understand it? Yes. However, I am impressed with your tactics. When you can't debate the topic, you verge the conversion into a new one. It's a good one and you actually had me here for a second. This argument is on BM/WW, not SM/BM. Other heroes’s interactions matter not in relation to the topic of BM/WW. What matter is how their interactions are portrayed. Actually if we go by their last story of them together, I sure there would be nothing to worry about.

The some others accounts.

Batman mentions the nanites on Amazo even though Cyborg is right there scanning Amazo. Oh well, Cyborgs useless.

Batman is also usually unless in the final confrontation. Look at that arc you were just talking about. What did Batman do? He didn’t fight Darkseid. (Because that would be hilarious.) All he did was sneak in and saved Superman after he was hit by Omega beams and carried off. He usually just stands there and maybe says some bs. Everyone has a part to play.

Batman is more powerful than Superman. A better fighter than Wonder Woman. Has a stronger will than Hal Jordan. Better reflexes than the Flash. Knows more science than Firestorm. Maybe the writers should just make him a reality warper.

No, he is not. No one after reading anything those moments thinks that Batman is any of those things. And neither do you. So stop acting like this how people perceive these characters. Your “I'm Batman” meme logic is bs and you know. Even, Batman fanboys deep down inside know that Batman isn't the greatest hero. They will never admit it, but it's true. All you are doing is basing your anti-BM/WW argument on the idiotic banters of fools. You even make out like it’s a human fault to like Batman. You look down on fans of his with you superiority views, like they are lesser people. And all it does is make you look like the bias one. The ignorant one. The wrong one. So maybe you’re not fit to give opinion on this subject. Or at least maybe you should reevaluate how to handle your opinion in more dignified matter.

@punyparker More than you think there are.

@deaditegonzo: I simply disagree. Id say you think Batman isnt written with PIS in the crossover books, and doesnt overshadow the other star, because youre a batfanboy. Youd argue that I disagree because im a bat-hater. It just goes round and round, and its pointless.

I never said you were a Bathater. I brought up the possibility of your bias nature. That was it. I could play your childish games of pointing finger. But, I won't. I'm not a Batman fanboy, I just like the character. I'm willing to give him more credit than you are. I'm willing to believe that he is not the embodiment of everything that is wrong with DC Comics. I'm just not one sided on my opinion on these character interactions with each other. I wish you could say the same.

As someone who actually likes Superman, for example, i thought his portrayal at Batman's hands in the Annual was appalling and inconsistent with his usual showings. You would disagree, because presumably you dont like Superman.

I would disagree becuase I believe that it's not a severe as you like to make it. Everytime Superman is put in situation with Batman, the writers make it very clear of the logic of Batman's being. However, that not good enough for you. You wouldn't be satisfied unless the writer made it even more blatantly obvious of Superman's superiority.

So if there was a Batman/Wonder Woman comic, and all it was was Wondy being constantly in awe of Bats, you wouldnt be upset, because presumably you only care about Batman. You wouldnt even recognize it was happening, because youre seeing from a Batfans perspective, not a "X fan's perspective". As a Wonder Woman fan, id be disgusted.

So your whole argument is base on assumptions. You have nothing to back up your claims and will continue to says things like: Wonder Woman would just worship Batman and I'm a Batfanboy. This is the type of person I'm trying to have a debate with? Ugh.....

I have the collectors edition of Injustice, and from the context of the game, i took that statue completely differently than you apparently did.

I do not find that surprising base on your distorted views on anything Batman related.

And I dont care what the general audience thinks about comics they dont even read, I dont even care what BatFanboys think. As long as im having a good time, thats all I really need.

Clearly, considering that you are not at all concerned with how negative a character like Superman affect her as a character. But, as long if it's Superman and not Batman who cares right? Right? You're having fun, that's all that matters.

I could make a case that I'm a big fan of Superman. Or should I say pre-52 Superman. I'm still waiting for Superman to get back to that similar characterization.(Greg Pak so far has been doing a good job at that.) But, I feel that would be a lost cause. I not here to change your mind. That is clearly a wasteful act. I'm here to make a case and that is all. You don't have to agreed. However, I would advise you should at least look at SM/WW from Diana's perspective. Instead of just Clark's. Maybe, just maybe you will see the harm to her from characters on Superman's level. Maybe read some fans of Wonder Woman opinions on this whole situation. Then I'm sure you will see how one sided the relationship really is at it's core.

@deaditegonzo: Im just going to have to disagree. Batman is a plot black hole, anyone with him is immediately sucked in. They stop having any characterization and become plot devices for him. The most recent Superman/Batman showed this, Earth2 is showing this, Forever Evil is showing this, I seriously could go on and on.

Exaggerating to that degree. Nope, not even going to try with a responsive like that.

It would be all about Wonder Woman learning to respect Batman, because even though he is human he is the most powerful being on Earth. And then she'd ask him for Martial Arts pointers.

Or it would be Wonder Woman showing him his limits, faults and how to rise above them. Batman can and has been portrayed more than just Batgod. It's almost like you are not aware of anything relating to him other than his stereotypes. Or at least you don't retain anything. Superman is still usefully and portrayed on the same grounded as Batman is in their comic. They just have very different parts to play. That's it(But, I'm sure you see it differently.) And when it comes to women who are known to be portrayed the worst in the comics industry, writers do not hold back. They are not afraid to shake up Batman's image and Fanbase.

Hell, look at the Injustice Gods Among Us collector's edition. This what DC and WB did to a whole different audience. Video gamers.

Any character who has a fanbase of their own doesnt deserve the Bat Effect ruining them.

So along as it not Batman then it's okay? Wonder Woman is supposed to be the epitome of an strong independent female superhero. Superman constantly shows the parallel of inferiority in her character. It literally affect the core concept of her character. ("blah, blah, blah did you read that 1 issue of SM/WW?" Yes I did.) Superman eclipse her in both ability and presence. Something that they can't change at the end of the day. She just the Girl that can handle Superman in bed now. It's sickening.

And I dont think Morrison's opinion of Batman is the "canon one", but I think he has the most objective perspective on the character. I wasnt trying to prove any point, I was just stating my opinion.

So your opinion on Batman and what embodies him as character boilings down to Homoeroticism.? Not Vengeance, or Justice. It's the one quote that some may find negative. You think out of all the the insights that creators of the medium, that this quote is Batman? Well I do find that quite strange. But, all things considering from your perspective on the character, not surprising. I'm going to throw another Grant Morrison quote at you. Since you consider his opinion so highly regarded. One that I think you should reflected on when you see illogical moments in comics. Or as in this case Batman's relevance.

“Adults...struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life. Adults foolishly demand to know how Superman can possibly fly, or how Batman can possibly run a multibillion-dollar business empire during the day and fight crime at night, when the answer is obvious even to the smallest child: because it's not real.” - Grant Morrison

@youknowwhattodo: It's cool.

@deaditegonzo:

Also, like Grant Morrison points out, Batman isnt really into the ladies.

One man's opinion does not define a character. What if people fallowed Frank Miller's opinion on how he portrayed Superman in DKR? What really was the point of this comment?

And most important of all when it comes to Wonder Woman: Due to Batman's playboy aspect, and the fact so many fanboys love it, any female character paired with him instantly becomes nothing more than a notch in his belt, and a part of "Batman's Story" (rather than a mutual story that is shared).

This is a silly responsive. Batman has been with many women in that past and none of are associated with him except Catwoman, Talia and maybe and I mean maybe Wonder Woman.(not everyone watched JLU) About the same as Superman's Lana, Lois and Wonder woman. Those are the only characters that are definitely considered "Batman's girls." Batman can be in a relationship that is more than just a fling. They won't do it, but it's very possible. The fact that it has never been done, doesn't mean it can't. Miller Bat is not the only type of Batman. Batman can have a mutual story that is shared. Batman/Superman and Batman and robin is evident at showing that. What is the difference between his relationship with men and than women? If Robin/Superman were women instead, you could easily see a romantic relationship between them. Hell, Batman already gets gay jokes about him and Robin/Superman. As well as in depth analysis on the their relationship. He can have a serious relationship that would not affect what embodies him as a character. It seems to me that your opinion on Batman is too stereotypical on how he should be portrayed.

@youknowwhattodo: I also don't want to see the romance between Wonder Woman and Superman continue, though unlike @johnni_kun I do think it is the better written pairing of the two, I just don't think that it is a good idea for Wonder Woman to be dating a hero that's more powerful than her. Long story short, no dating within the trinity.

To be fair, I never said that is was better written. I said that it's was the better way of writing a relationship between Trinity members. I can't possibly see how I could compare the two. As I said, one wasn't even in a romantic relationship. And I can tell you that negative opinions on the couple would not be so severe if it was written as only attraction.

I'm gonna agree with this statement

OP Superman threads are like PIS Batman thread. They are tired and over done.

@saint_wildcard: Billy is one of those character that are hidden gems. Seriously, there no good reason for DC not to put out a Shazam series.

I'm going to give you answer before the modern day Superman fanboys come to spam SM/WW in this thread.

I think SM/WW killed any enthusiasm with Trinity pairings. Batman/Wonder Woman was never an actual romance. It was only a mutual attraction. Which is the far superior way of writing Trinity pairings. The relationships are not so serious and don't affect the characters too much. Superman/WW is a actual attempt at a romantic couple and look how mixed the opinions are on them. You have a large group that hates it, a smaller group that loves it and a tiny group who are not interested. So no to both of those questions.

As for Wonder Woman. I enjoy AZZ's Wonder Woman, but I can understand people having mixed feelings on her portrayal. I'm not fan of really anything else she is portrayed in currently.

@farkam: Henry has a real life Super power. I bet he could get any girl he wanted. Lucky son of a b*tch.

@saint_wildcard: They're trying. But, it won't stick. Comic characters kind of have a ideal look to their fans and the artists. Just like they never adopted the Christian Bale look for Bats.(or the several other actors.)