@vance_astro: This image is iconic in the sexist debate, but they're wrong. Batman was being the responsible role model and well to do citizen. Batman is actually soft, considering the number of times he could have killed Joker, or at least broken his legs or something.... Only to let the sicko hurt so many more people. But hey, a "better man" needs to act like a better man, a spanking a naive , irresponsible, immature girl/woman is giving her a walk in the park. What if the Hunter/gatherer/family protector man just took all the inventions and safeties and just threw that ungrateful woman punk into the wild to fend for herself? I bet she'd behave then. Notice how the word "punk" is rarely applied to women, when many deserve it. See? Now THAT is sexist.
Batman has never been a responsible role model. As long as there is a Robin, a Batgirl & a Nightwing...he screwed up!
@vance_astro: This image is iconic in the sexist debate, but they're wrong. Batman was being the responsible role model and well to do citizen. Batman is actually soft, considering the number of times he could have killed Joker, or at least broken his legs or something.... Only to let the sicko hurt so many more people. But hey, a "better man" needs to act like a better man, a spanking a naive , irresponsible, immature girl/woman is giving her a walk in the park. What if the Hunter/gatherer/family protector man just took all the inventions and safeties and just threw that ungrateful woman punk into the wild to fend for herself? I bet she'd behave then. Notice how the word "punk" is rarely applied to women, when many deserve it. See? Now THAT is sexist.
I would like to say that Marvel and DC are some of the greatest offender in this(One of the most spectacular was a Milo Manara X-men book with an only women cast...). But sexism t me isn't about gratuitous fanservice, but more in depreciation of a gender.
Somehow, I found that the 90'S wasn't so good to women : the "bad girl" era, in image comics, was sometimes truly dumb : pick an early Witchblade issue, and you will find that the scenario was somehow hollow, and the drawing very much of the success.
Truth to be told, as an teenage guy, I sometimes feeled bad when I saw male superheroes and their impossible physical perfection. But I guess they're eye candy to female readership, so I really learned to not care about it.
Now, DC and Marvel writing are not that good. Like it's been written earlier, even the male superheroes are badly depicted. But that's true that girl get an especially bad writing and derailement character.
I do agree that some of the depictions, particularly some of the costumes, are gratuitous and I don't care that much for them. There's a difference between showing some skin, and looking like strippers.
To be fair, Doom in Doom, and would had probably said that to anyone.
I also think that while some sexism is obvious, other times people just look for things that aren't there.
"@The Psyentist: don't feel bad. I'd say a good 98% of the male characters are poorly written as well. "
I agree... It is all about the writer, not the comic character, sure there is going to be Sexism in comics, its in real life, it should be in comics, not at a extreme level, but we should not make belive that sexism does not happen... It does. I have a problem with what certain people pass judgment as sexist. I don't find Power Girls outfit sexist, I don't care what a woman is wearing, I want to get to know her. Now lets say a gaint robot was tearing apart a city, and Power Girl was window shopping instead of stopping the threat, that would be sexist, IMO.
That is an interesting point. I wonder why some men haven't complained about male bodies being "stereotyped" or "marketed" (in the comics
Because we don't care.That part of comics isn't even important. "
Right, but why is it then important to women? Why do women care, while we don't, regarding our respective "bodily appearances"? "
Not being a woman..I wouldn't really know but I would assume it has something to do with the way project our interest in comics and maybe also something to do with the fact that many comic companies neglect their female characters are use them poorly.Maybe women feel like the comics industry only caters to men because that is the majority of their readers.Maybe they just feel left out and would like a female character they can relate to.Comic company rosters are stacked with all different types of MALE characters, it's easier for us to find role model or a character we can relate with. "
I sort of agree with this. But I think even women can be incapable of writing diversified women characters. God, I hate gender. Even I am confined when it comes to writing females because of my own stereotypes. That's when I have to look at the character not as a woman, but as a person. Which leave potential.
“When we treat a person as male or female, we impose our own stereotypes of what that means. But if we treat a person as fully human, then we give him or her the freedom and responsibility to be completely the male or female who he or she is.”--Ray Anderson, On Being Human
That is an interesting point. I wonder why some men haven't complained about male bodies being "stereotyped" or "marketed" (in the comics
Because we don't care.That part of comics isn't even important. "
Right, but why is it then important to women? Why do women care, while we don't, regarding our respective "bodily appearances"? "
Not being a woman..I wouldn't really know but I would assume it has something to do with the way project our interest in comics and maybe also something to do with the fact that many comic companies neglect their female characters are use them poorly.Maybe women feel like the comics industry only caters to men because that is the majority of their readers.Maybe they just feel left out and would like a female character they can relate to.Comic company rosters are stacked with all different types of MALE characters, it's easier for us to find role model or a character we can relate with.
I really liked the video, but I think you should've add one of the most famouse female character. You showed quite a bt of Spider-girl, but you didn't even mention Wonder Woman. I really think Wonder Woman has been showing girl power for a long time and to not even get mention in a video about that.... I liked it, but I really think you should've put Wonder Woman in it mroe then Spider-Girl.
" Why can't someone write a character without that character somehow reflecting on the writer? Why would anyone assume because Reed Richards treated Sue some sort of way that Stan feels some sort of way toward women? "
This. It's like saying Stephen King condones everything he's ever written just because he's written it. I admit that writers are influenced by their lives and obviously their views, but what if the only reason those things are included is simply to get these exact reactions... 100+ comments on sexism.
That is an interesting point. I wonder why some men haven't complained about male bodies being "stereotyped" or "marketed" (in the comics
Because we don't care.That part of comics isn't even important. "
Right, but why is it then important to women? Why do women care, while we don't, regarding our respective "bodily appearances"? "
Because that's how a woman's worth is usually judged. guys are judged for the things they do. a guy looks at two girls and he usually gonna choose the more attractive one. a girl looks at two guys and she's usually going to go for the guy who stands out talent/accomplishment wise. Of course, this is an oversimplification, but it's ususally how things go. That's why a woman with the features of a model can live with her parents until she's forty with no hassle, but a guy has to move out by the time he's 20 to get some respect.
@RedheadedAtrocitus: i think in starfire's case, she's SUPPOSED to be overly sexed up, she knows what she's doing, in the comics she purposely dresses in skimpy things to get attention or distract men opponents (although she halfheartedly claims her lack of clothes is so that she can absorb as much solar radiation as possible)
I agree the costumes could be less revealing. That scene you said with Ms. Marvel and Doctor Doom is not sexism at all. If you actually read the issue, You see Doctor Doom is just being arrogant and he is pissed since Ms. Marvel keeps making sarcastic comments and since Doctor Doom thinks he is better than everyone else, he doesn't want people telling him what to do. He would tell Spider-Man to shut the hell up and be as angry at him too. Also with Mr. Fantastic, He is just a giant douche. I don't like him, he is a sexist and the dumbest smart person ever!!
"Why can't someone write a character without that character somehow reflecting on the writer? Why would anyone assume because Reed Richards treated Sue some sort of way that Stan feels some sort of way toward women? "
" @soundbite: Thank you so much I can't wait until you get to see the video and I agree what you have to say revealing parts is not so much sexism but I have some scans in my video showing sexism in words. Which I think is a real problem. I can live with art sexism but i can not live with writing sexism because that does not sell comics it is just sexist. "
I finally got to watch your video and my opinion hasn't changed. I think a lot of what you took issue with was sexualization and not sexism. As far as the writing goes, it seems like you want to eliminate conversial storylines dealing with sexism from comics. I hope that's not the case. Showing those personal flaws of heroes are what makes the stories great. To me, it's sexism if the comic itself promotes the idea that women are less important than men. The examples you gave seem to be more of issues dealing with character flaws rather than promoting the idea that women are inferior to men. I can't tell context from a panel or two, but that's what I gathered from it when I saw it. I believe the Batman scans that have been shown in this thread are what seem to fit more along the lines of your point. I hope my opinion is easy to understand.
BTW, this little Stan Lee debate is crazy.
Stan Lee is an attention shill, but he'll readily admit that. He'll also readily admit that he's a lazy writer when it came to origin concepts. He also has given credit where it was due on who came up with costume designs. As to the origins of the "Marvel Method", Lee did what he had to because he was basically the only writer on staff. When you're in charge of 6+ books a month, how are you expecting to script them all? Yes, the visual aspect is very important to a comic book, but please don't undersell the importance of the pathos created in the original Marvel lineups and how they were the factors that had people reading them. Stan Lee's shilling also was a moving force behind the popularity of Marvel comics because he engaged the fans and the readers and made them feel like part of the process. Comic books are popular today because of the attention and promotion that Lee took on half a century ago. He was an ambassador for the medium like no one's ever been. Criticize his poor writing all you want, but denying his contribution to the industry is ludicrous.
" @Deadcool: We will agree to disagree. Stan Lee is loved my so many for the wrong reasons. I have no problem having to over compensate with dislike for him. And the way you see the medium is different then I, since it is the catch paraphrase like "great power..." that ring in you mind. I for one am a fan of the "invisible" language of comics and since only Stan cannot truly script, but give raw ideas to great artist, then recycle what they produce with his adolescent gibberish, he does not fit my standard of greatness, he is like me taking credit for telling someone to draw something awesome and then me throwing words over it, I am full of ideas, but I don't consider myself a comic writer. And you can ask if I am "always like this", when it comes to the medium, Yes. You see Stan Lee as being equal to his artist, I see him as being lucky enough to in the right place right time. All I know for sure is that Kirby is known as "The King" and most people with a broader opinion comment on other creators. Stan Lee is never talked about as greatly compared to someone like Will Eisner or even Kirby, when it comes to the actual medium. The Marvel method is, Stan comes up with an idea, the artist tells the story, then Stan throws words on top, that is no scripting, which is not truly writing. Speaking of ideas then I guess the Superman duo are the greatest creators of all time, since it is their archetype that inspired the superhero genre? So we'll agree to disagree. Cheers - Silkcuts "
Well, I already knew that, but still, I don't think he is overrated, he is known to be a great "comic creator", not a great comic writer, he is the one has the Idea of Spider-man being a teenager, Thor being Donald Blake, Hulk being Bruce Banner, and he created a lot of ideas, and he picked the right artist, he did not all random, he actually recognized the talent of Steve Ditko to create Spider-man, Dr Strange, etc. I actually believe that, without Stan, all our heroes couldn’t be like they are now, what if Jack Kirby had created the current Marvel? Well, we could have a horrible Spider-man, what if Steve Ditko had created the current Marvel? I have no problem with skinny heroes at all, what I actually like about Stan is that he moved the right people to do the right things, but he stills an asshole.
" Why can't someone write a character without that character somehow reflecting on the writer? Why would anyone assume because Reed Richards treated Sue some sort of way that Stan feels some sort of way toward women? "
In some ways, I agree with this. If we were to judge by that, then every comic writer is as the super villains they write. LOL. "
The horrible things we should be assuming about Millar if we were to assume that all writers were the atrocious things they wrote. "
Very good point.
Now, in my opinion, Quesada and, to a lesser degree, Johns are super villains, but that is just my theory.
" Why can't someone write a character without that character somehow reflecting on the writer? Why would anyone assume because Reed Richards treated Sue some sort of way that Stan feels some sort of way toward women? "
In some ways, I agree with this. If we were to judge by that, then every comic writer is as the super villains they write. LOL. "
The horrible things we should be assuming about Millar if we were to assume that all writers were the atrocious things they wrote.
" Why can't someone write a character without that character somehow reflecting on the writer? Why would anyone assume because Reed Richards treated Sue some sort of way that Stan feels some sort of way toward women? "
In some ways, I agree with this. If we were to judge by that, then every comic writer is as the super villains they write. LOL.
Why can't someone write a character without that character somehow reflecting on the writer? Why would anyone assume because Reed Richards treated Sue some sort of way that Stan feels some sort of way toward women?
Oh... so that is what is it. Stan takes a cookie cutter idea for all his scientist. So Scientist means "Pimp hand Strong". Now I can be an over acclaimed comic "writer" if I can give a great artist this idea to draw a story for me and me "putting then housewives" in their places. That is why they all wear gloves, so when they hit women their hand doesn't get red. I want to write a comic with Stephen Hawking being a pimp. I think it can sell. "
.......... "
You don't think it would make a good Marvel Max comic? People love seeing women knocked to the ground, don't they? Chris Brown is still making music and he told Rihanna with his hand. People see it and complain, but cover it over because they don't want Change. Saying "Stan" makes all his brilliant minds like that defends the idea that may be that was truly Stan Lee's outlet to wife beat. I am not saying he did hit his wife, but like why I play killzone to shoot a gun, it is an outlet for an "idea". "
I don't know why Stan Lee wrote those things..only he does.You asked is Stan Lee sexist by writing those things and I PERSONALLY don't think so.He wrote characters that were sexist that doesn't necessarily make him sexist.Whether Stan Lee ever hit women or wanted to hit women is beyond me but i'm not assuming that, that is something that he wants to do because he writes it in his comics.Maybe he was exposing an issue in society..I don't know i'm not Stan Lee.
Oh... so that is what is it. Stan takes a cookie cutter idea for all his scientist. So Scientist means "Pimp hand Strong". Now I can be an over acclaimed comic "writer" if I can give a great artist this idea to draw a story for me and me "putting then housewives" in their places. That is why they all wear gloves, so when they hit women their hand doesn't get red. I want to write a comic with Stephen Hawking being a pimp. I think it can sell. "
.......... "
You don't think it would make a good Marvel Max comic? People love seeing women knocked to the ground, don't they? Chris Brown is still making music and he told Rihanna with his hand. People see it and complain, but cover it over because they don't want Change. Saying "Stan" makes all his brilliant minds like that defends the idea that may be that was truly Stan Lee's outlet to wife beat. I am not saying he did hit his wife, but like why I play killzone to shoot a gun, it is an outlet for an "idea".
Oh... so that is what is it. Stan takes a cookie cutter idea for all his scientist. So Scientist means "Pimp hand Strong". Now I can be an over acclaimed comic "writer" if I can give a great artist this idea to draw a story for me and me "putting then housewives" in their places. That is why they all wear gloves, so when they hit women their hand doesn't get red. I want to write a comic with Stephen Hawking being a pimp. I think it can sell. "
Male characters have fan appeal also, but I have never met a dude who thinks comics are sexist toward men because they where unrealistically tight clothes. That was my only point. "
That is an interesting point. I wonder why some men haven't complained about male bodies being "stereotyped" or "marketed" (in the comics). "
Because we don't care.That part of comics isn't even important. "
Male characters have fan appeal also, but I have never met a dude who thinks comics are sexist toward men because they where unrealistically tight clothes. That was my only point. "
That is an interesting point. I wonder why some men haven't complained about male bodies being "stereotyped" or "marketed" (in the comics). "
Because we don't care.That part of comics isn't even important.
" @haydenclaireheroes: Keep up the good work. Cheers. BTW... was it Stan being Sexist? Why won't anyone answer me...lol "
When you say was Stan being sexist do you mean by the things her wrote about the Fantastic Four because I think he was more making Reed a sexist and not exposing himself as a sexist.Hank Pym was the same way as was\is Doom.I guess Stan is saying all scientifically brilliant people slap women and talk to them like dogs? "
Oh... so that is what is it. Stan takes a cookie cutter idea for all his scientist. So Scientist means "Pimp hand Strong". Now I can be an over acclaimed comic "writer" if I can give a great artist this idea to draw a story for me and me "putting then housewives" in their places. That is why they all wear gloves, so when they hit women their hand doesn't get red. I want to write a comic with Stephen Hawking being a pimp. I think it can sell.
@Deadcool: We will agree to disagree. Stan Lee is loved my so many for the wrong reasons. I have no problem having to over compensate with dislike for him. And the way you see the medium is different then I, since it is the catch paraphrase like "great power..." that ring in you mind. I for one am a fan of the "invisible" language of comics and since only Stan cannot truly script, but give raw ideas to great artist, then recycle what they produce with his adolescent gibberish, he does not fit my standard of greatness, he is like me taking credit for telling someone to draw something awesome and then me throwing words over it, I am full of ideas, but I don't consider myself a comic writer. And you can ask if I am "always like this", when it comes to the medium, Yes. You see Stan Lee as being equal to his artist, I see him as being lucky enough to in the right place right time. All I know for sure is that Kirby is known as "The King" and most people with a broader opinion comment on other creators. Stan Lee is never talked about as greatly compared to someone like Will Eisner or even Kirby, when it comes to the actual medium. The Marvel method is, Stan comes up with an idea, the artist tells the story, then Stan throws words on top, that is no scripting, which is not truly writing. Speaking of ideas then I guess the Superman duo are the greatest creators of all time, since it is their archetype that inspired the superhero genre? So we'll agree to disagree.
The issue I was addressing was that sometimes women view comics as sexist (with some truth behind their views) because female characters are scant.
This is the part i'm really addressing....My response was more toward women who think that comics are sexist based on costumes, because it's not sexist to show any character in a revealing costume.Sexism is a bias toward women or a belief that men are superior, it's discriminatory.I don't see what costumes have to do with that.
If the issue is female characters being "over-sexualized" that doesn't have anything to do with costumes either.It's more the ideal of a perfect body.Form fitting clothing on a beautiful woman will appear sexy no matter how much of the body is actually being covered. "
You would have to take that up with the thread maker then, because it was an issue brought up. I am not saying I have a major problem with it, but some people do. Now, as FadetoBlackBolt said, some costumes are revealing to the point of ludicrousness. Whether you or I classify it as sexist is less of an issue than the pointlessness of it. Like I said, it has to do with reception, because regardless of our agreement or disagreement with it, overly revealing uniforms on female characters is viewed as sexist, the length at which it should be or not notwithstanding. Fan service (not just pertaining to character costumes) is just a method to sell comics. It does no benefit for the characters used for it or used to drive the plot and is, for all intents and purposes, worthless.
" @haydenclaireheroes: Keep up the good work. Cheers. BTW... was it Stan being Sexist? Why won't anyone answer me...lol "
When you say was Stan being sexist do you mean by the things he wrote about the Fantastic Four because I think he was more making Reed a sexist and not exposing himself as a sexist.Hank Pym was the same way as was\is Doom.I guess Stan is saying all scientifically brilliant people slap women and talk to them like dogs?
"You clearly eat the propaganda that Stan does more then just throw catch paraphrases over other people’s drawings.
Clearly the text is important in a philosophy class.
As for only Marvel, you actually deny that is your loyalty? Your wiki points are all Marvel or Video games and Stan is one of your Top editor entries of course your going to ride your love for him. If you looked outside all that "Stan Lee" presents non sense then you would see he is a credit whore and has been given more acclaim then he should have.
Sorry, I didn't uderstood this.... Love for him, wow dude....
Do you even like Romita? Where is the wiki love on that?
Being a Stan Lee fan doesn't make you a fan of the medium, because Stan Lee hasn't written anything besides "Clobbering Time" and other candy for kids.
"With a great power, comes great responsibility"?
He came up with ideas sure, but it was the artist in all of his runs that fleshed them out and gave them life. So give the devil is dues if you want, but until you can get outside of you Stan Lee love you will be missing out on the true potential of the medium.
Are you always like this?
BTW, since you love Stan so much, can you confirm if he is the sexist writer on the Mr. Fantastic that looks like it was drawn by Kirby? Stan Lee was lucky to be in the right place right time that he can bankrupt the company how many times but the fans know the name and see his mascot smile, forgive him and he can ruin more comics because he is Stan Lee. He is a hero for children; he shouldn't be a hero for adults. "
I like what Stan did, Its true, he is an asshole, he rarely mentions Jack or Steve Ditko, just like Walt Disney of Thomas Edison, but he did it well I don't think that he is overrated just like Jack or Ditko, I have always loved what he did with Spider-man, Thor and Hulk, but he stills an asshole, but in that time, all the men were that kind of assholes, even the writer of Archie comics.
Gallery
I don't have heroes, or idols, no man alive deserves that credit, all of them are mere humans, I just believe in ideas, ideas created by those men, ideas like superheroes, because such thing just exist, in fantasy.
I don't believe that him, or anyone that had created comics back then is underrated or overrated, back then all were just the same, but at least they believed what they did.
There is just one thing that I should recognice about you is the fact that you love justice, that is the one thing right with you.
@Decept-O: I agree woman can be sexy but not show sexism. ya I understand why they did the sexist talk for Dr. Doom but Reed that just came out of no where. I am glad you liked my video and topic.
Very interesting video. I'm fine with some sexy, revealing outfits (my favourite X-men character is Emma Frost). But when I think about what I would be like in a superhero-ish world, I would go more for practicality. I mean, I'd want to look good, but I won't be wearing heels (as much as I love them) to fight crime. Now I do sort of agree with the idea of the disparity between written sexism and art "sexism." Aesthetics are art. It's about looking good. Really, I don't care that much about how people look. What I do care about is how they are written. Too often I find women depicted as what women "are." I tend to find them bland, traditional (even when they seem to be "girl power-full"), and stereotypical.
Let's see what I like about Emma Frost. She dresses scantily. This doesn't bother me too much (there is one outfit that I cannot stand, probably her most famous). Since she is a telepath, I don't think her clothes really get in the way of her ability (when she goes into H2H diamond mode, that's problematic, tight pants don't move well, and there's no way that top is staying on during a fight). I like the way she's cold, powerful and assertive, sarcastic, unashamed, and intelligent. I like the fact, that if you took away her image, you'd almost think that the character was a male (according to gender stereotypes). On the outside, she seems to personify sexism-- she is a sex object complete with implanted breasts and little clothing. Consequentially, I find her ironic and intriguing. She seems to be constantly fitting and breaking the mold, but in a way that is not contradictory. (Opinions of The Psyentist)
I can live with art sexism but i can not live with writing sexism because that does not sell comics it is just sexist. "
Sexism is used in writing as something for the female character to overcome just like a character like Luke Cage has had to deal with racism.She-Hulk had to overcome sexism with her fight against the Champion of the Universe.He underestimated her because she was female and she proved that she can battle with the best.
@haydenclaireheroes: Yes. I realize you are a young lady and indeed having to encounter a lot of the renderings of the female form a lot can definitely be annoying and frustrating for you. I think a female character can be drawn and portrayed "sexy" without showing too much. Again, I am guilty of this myself with some drawings but I can agree and see where you are coming from with your perspective, that some of the sexy drawings can be a bit tamer.
Not just that but I wanted to state earlier that with the example you used of Dr. Doom, well, that was a bit much yet simoultaneously, it really shows how EVIL Dr. Doom IS with his attitude and comments! Also, I hate how Reed Richards has been portrayed, along with Sue Richards, with their borderline abusive relationship. It is a bit much but that is an example of a writer's "take" on the couple. Same goes for Dr. Pym and Janet Van Dyne ( Wasp), with Pym being an abusive jerk. However, I kind of love how the Wasp has been portrayed, a bit flirtatious and often shown wearing different outfits. I think that is a nice take on the character.
Some things to remember is that the writers and artists have their own take and you just have to essentially "filter" out what characters and stories you like best.
The issue I was addressing was that sometimes women view comics as sexist (with some truth behind their views) because female characters are scant.
This is the part i'm really addressing....My response was more toward women who think that comics are sexist based on costumes, because it's not sexist to show any character in a revealing costume.Sexism is a bias toward women or a belief that men are superior, it's discriminatory.I don't see what costumes have to do with that.
If the issue is female characters being "over-sexualized" that doesn't have anything to do with costumes either.It's more the ideal of a perfect body.Form fitting clothing on a beautiful woman will appear sexy no matter how much of the body is actually being covered.
117 Comments