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#1 Posted by cattlebattle (15718 posts) - - Show Bio

"crimes against indigenous peoples"

I wasn't aware there was laws and standards back then. Even if there were, do we hold the indigenous peoples responsible for tribal warfare and brutality they took part in?? Ritualistic murder, cannibalism, rape, torture etc.....all were detailed to exist and be a part of daily life in the pre colonized Americas.

Or do we just hold Europeans responsible for stuff like this??

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#2 Edited by cattlebattle (15718 posts) - - Show Bio

SPYDA-MAN marked this as the best answer

When kid Jason jumps out of the water and grabs Alice it's just a dream sequence.

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#3 Posted by cattlebattle (15718 posts) - - Show Bio

@tvc-15 said:

@cattlebattle: Okay, get a new one after almost 20 years. Is that better?

He has been featured as college aged way more times than he has been featured in high school though. In the films the only reason he is usually featured in high school at all is that because it is part of his origin story. I just feel like it's tantamount to asking to see the Joker in a new Batman feature. It's overdone.

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#4 Posted by cattlebattle (15718 posts) - - Show Bio

This is more or less a variation of the "Ferguson Effect", where cops are turning the other way in fear of backlash of being called a racist or whatever.

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#5 Posted by cattlebattle (15718 posts) - - Show Bio

@tvc-15 said:

Jesus, whose web do I have to climb to get a college aged Spider-Man show.


With the exception of the last two Spider-Man animated shows he always featured as a College student.

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#6 Edited by cattlebattle (15718 posts) - - Show Bio

I wanted to do a review of the Generation X series to see what peoples thoughts on it were overall.

For anyone that doesn't what I am talking about, Generation X was a series that debuted in 1994 and was co created by Scott Lobdell and Chris Bachalo. It was basically a series set to fill in the student future X-Men in training gap left by the New Mutants who had since ascended, or descended depending on your opinion, to X-Force. The series ran for a pretty impressive 7 years before ending with issue 75 in 2001.

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I'll be completely honest with you, when I was a kid, I thought this series was great, I thought the characters were unique, and the set up was pretty counter culture to all the other Marvel X-Men titles at that time. However, when I was older, I looked back at this series and had formed a completely different opinion on it.....

And that opinion is that it isn't that good. Some older stuff can hold up, but, not this.....

I believe people tend to look back at this series with fondness for the same reason people look back at a lot of stuff from 90's X-Men comics, and that reason is sentimentality. Sentimentality and they probably remember Chris Bachalo's artwork being great. Also, the first 20 or so issues are printed on more high quality paper than the rest of the series which gives it a more eye appealing presentation.

So there you go. People have a vague memory of this from their childhood coupled with Bachalo's graffiti like artwork and nice paper..... anyways, here is my opinion why I thought this series was pretty bad.....

I guess I should mention that the series is born out of the “Phalanx Covenant” crossover. I don't remember entirely what happens in the crossover but it basically served as an introduction to most of the cast of the Generation X team and how Emma Frost and Banshee became their instructors. The (increasingly more popular as years went on) character known as Blink is also introduced in this series, however, she basically sacrifices herself to rid the world of the Phalanx at the end of the crossover, and I guess that leads to my first criticism of the book.....they never really mention ole' Blink ever again. Not even a “hey remember that weird pink girl who saved our lives??” Nothing.

The characters

  • Banshee had been just floating around in X-Men limbo at the time, so I guess Lobdell liked him and wanted to use him. While I like Banshee and think he is a character you could do a lot with because of his seemingly interminable past, I never really buy him as a “headmaster” type. As a team leader, sure. As a second in command, okay. But there is something about the character I just never fully accept as a character that would be put in charge of a group of kids. I suppose I should mention this fun fact—In the “Days of Future Present” story arc back in 1990 Banshee was actually the leader/headmaster/whatever of the New Mutants team that came from the future. It is within complete possibility that Lobdell got the idea from that.

  • Emma Frost is actually a supporting character in the pages of X-Men at the time. While it is sensible for her to become a headmistress due to her past with Hellions she does seem like a character that is similar to Magneto

    And by that I mean that Magneto felt like a completely different character in different decades. In the 60's and 70's he was a psychopathic mustache twirling villain and in the 80's, Claremont redeemed him and made him a man who was just misguided and trying to find his way.

    Similarly, Emma Frost was pretty sinister lady throughout the 80's....she seemed to fetishize the kidnapping of children and plotting murder among other things.....she was like the Wicked Witch to Kitty Pryde's Dorothy for lack of a better analogy....she even killed Firestar's horse at one point....for lolz.

    In this series she is still her cold, distant, bitchy self but she is also somewhat likable and seems to genuinely want to do good, which is not really anything like her character beforehand. Anyways, a looming character arc for her is if she is going to turn bad or not. Which never really pans out.

  • Paige Guthrie (Husk) and Everett Thomas (Synch). I put these two together because well...they are kind of the least interesting characters. Husk's power is interesting although, in that she can peal away her skin to have a new form underneath. Her character is mainly focused on asserting herself as leader of the her brother, Sam Guthrie, also known as Cannonball, did on the respective teams he was a part of. It, like many other character quirks, never pans out.

    Nothing much going on for Synch. His power is that he can “synchronize” with other mutants powers. It is teased several times that he can use his power to do more, like track people, but nothing much more comes of it. He is genuinely a pretty generic character overall,

  • Jubilee. I don't have to explain Jubilee. She is basically just Jubilee but on another team.

  • Jonothon Starsmore (Chamber) Chamber was the breakout character of this book. Probably because of the unique look of the character as his power blew half of his face off and he just had energy coming out of him all the time, however, one grievance I always had with the character is that when they first introduce him, there is this solid air of mystery around him and you can't be completely sure if he is human. In a sense, it seemed like psychic energy was manifesting in human form or something....

    Later though, it is revealed that he was just some British dude with a normal life and his power manifested....which I thought was disappointing.

  • Angelo Espinosa (Skin) Skin carried on the legacy of stereotypes in comics as he started out as a chicano gangbanger. His ability was that he had 6 extra feet of skin that he could use in all sorts of ways....which is admittedly a unique idea...though I don't know how useful it would be in the long run of super heroing.

    Skin had an interesting background as he apparently faked his death before joining the team. He also had a relationship with a character known as Tores who had some dealings with Emma Frost that was never revealed. All in all, his character just generally seemed to have no place else to go so he wound up on the team....which is a character arc I liked.

  • Monet St. Croix (M) aka the only character from this series to have a career as a consistent member of X-Men teams more or less. Well, this isn't the same M. It's confusing. I'll get to it. Just note that the original version of M is oddly just like the later version of M, which is a rude rich girl that thinks she knows everything. Initially, M has super strength and can fly, she also has some form of low level telepathy.

    Her character is that she is mysterious and not straightforward with the team. The teams primary nemesis, Emplate, is revealed to be her brother as well.

  • Penance is given to the team by Gateway at the end of the the first issue. She is apparently some mute girl, or at least doesn't know how to talk, or doesn't want to, with razor sharp skin and giant claws. She was Emplate's prisoner and seemingly been abused by him. Later on however, she becomes intertwined with M's debacle, which I will get to.

  • Mondo. Mondo can copy the organic properties of anything he touches, sort of like the Absorbing Man. He is revealed to be a plant on the team, quite literally, and is killed by Bastion.

  • Artie and Leech are in this book too. Just like they were X-Factor's wards in the 80's they are now this team's wards. Eternal Wards.

Issues 1-28

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I have the most to say about these issues because this is basically what Generation X was supposed to be as these were all written by Lobdell, the series creator. Also, I am not going to mention every last detail of what happens, I will just give and abridged recollection.

The team moves into the Massachuessetts Academy, the same place where Emma Frost lived with her Hellions, which is odd, because Emma rarely mentions her Hellions in the series considering they were all brutally murdered in front of her roughly a couple of months (comic book time) before. They also neglect to mention the fact that in the 80's, the Academy had some pretty advanced technology and had a long standing coalition with the Hellfire Club, who historically owned and funded the school. But, this is Lobdell were talking here, continuity isn't exactly his strong suit.

The first few issues of this series are probably the best because they predominantly deal with character drama. I've said that before that this series doesn't completely feel like an X-Men spin off in the beginning and more resembles something original or something like a Doom Patrol book...where the characters had really odd powers as opposed to standard super hero abilities.

As the series goes along though, it seems like Lobdell loses interest. Perhaps he was writing too many other books at the time or maybe he genuinely didn't care anymore as he would keep having his storytelling interrupted by yearly crossovers.

At any rate, the series devolves into a revolving door of guest appearances from obscure characters like Gateway, Nightmare, Nanny and Orphan Maker, Glorian the Shaper of Dreams, Eamon O' Donnell, Omega Red, Howard the Duck, The X-Cutioner. The series rally fails to build its own infrastructure as far as rogues and supporting characters go and ultimately becomes sort of boring after the first 15 or so issues.

Lobdell isn't particularly bad at character interactions, it's just that nobody really feels like they evolve that much. Skin's past is revealed a bit, as is Chamber's, M and Jubilee don't really like each other but make up with one another along the way, Everett and Paige have their character quirks, and Paige has a romantic interest in Chamber but no real further distinct character facets beyond that. It is teased early on that Emma and Banshee might be interested in each other, however, this never really pans out.

Before Lobdell leaves he manages to split the team up and has Sean and Emma looking for the team. Along the way Emma attempts to bargain with Emplate and Banshee takes Emplate and runs away. Jubilee is kidnapped by Bastion, the point of this was most likely to have Jubilee evolve out of her “sardonic teen” characterization she has had since being introduced to the X-men books, and the rest of the team wind up in California.

I guess I should also talk about Chris Bachalo's art.

Bachalo is actually a pretty talented artist. While most people are only familiar with his work on X-Men where he tends to do more simplistic designs, he is also capable of doing highly detailed artwork and photo realistic artwork....just look up his work on “Shade The Changing Man”

However, his style in Generation X starts out pretty similar to what he was doing in “Shade the Changing Man” and as he goes forth, seems to become more simplistic and resemble a more exaggerated style.

I mean look at the difference in Chamber over the years.....

Chamber: circa issue 3
Chamber: circa issue 3
Close up of Chamber's face: circa issue 3
Close up of Chamber's face: circa issue 3

Originally Chamber looks like this mangled shell of a man who is quite possibly not even human, later on, the art style seems to resemble that of a cartoon

Chamber: circa issue 31
Chamber: circa issue 31

Bachalo's style lent heavily to this series and I have no doubts that more visually interesting characters like Chamber, Penance and Emplate were more his idea than they were Lobdell's.

Overall, it seems like Bachalo and Lobdell started off really motivated with a collection of good characters and good ideas but as the series went on, perhaps due to them having other projects or just maybe collectively losing interest, seemed to lose momentum and become less invested in the overall series. Lobdell's writing becomes really lackluster and Bachalo's art seems to go down in quality as the series progresses.

Issues 29-63

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This is basically where Generation X is destroyed in a sense.

The first couple of issues are written by random writers before Larry Hama starts writing regularly with issue 33.

Hama is capable of writing good stories, he is. He wrote the Wolverine solo series for a long time and people often praise his work on the GI Joe comic from the 1980's. However, I don't know whether he received the mandate from the higher ups or just wasn't capable of writing this book, because he drove this one into the dirt.

The characters just seem to be perpetually stuck with their attitude tropes and don't often acknowledge all the stuff they have been through before hand. For instance, Jubilee seemed severely shaken by her time being Bastion's event that is never mentioned again and Jubilee goes back to being "lol -cynical teen-lol".There isn't much depth and some stories consist of them fighting a woman who has 7 space dwarfs as her henchmen, or an issue where the teens watch a bunch of horror movies and have nightmares.....his work on this book essentially has the depth of a teen comedy show on the Disney Network.

Then, some guy named Jay Faerber, who I have never heard anything about ever again, comes on the book and doesn't really improve anything, in fact, his work is similar to Hama's in the case that it is really “kiddy” and shallow. He opens the school to non mutants, which is an idea that sort of stagnated the original cast, he does however offer up some original villains, none of them are that interesting unfortunately.

Apparently not only does Skin suddenly have Mr. Fantastic's powers, but he also consciously refers to himself as an
Apparently not only does Skin suddenly have Mr. Fantastic's powers, but he also consciously refers to himself as an "LA Homey". Way to go Mr. Hama!!!!!!!!

The Dodsons do the artwork for the majority of these issues.

I don't like the Dodsons by the way. Their art looks better reserved for a promotional comic that would be put out by your school district that instructs kids not to bully one another. Every character they draw looks.....I don't know.....I don't even have words....if I had to make some up I would say “bubblegummy” or “pop-ish”. All the woman they draw look the same except for eye or hair color. Everyone has the same anatomy type too. In the world of the Dodson's there are no tall people or short people, fat or skinny people, there is only one anatomy model used for everyone according to their gender.

So yeah, this portion of the series is what really torpedoed the title. If Lobdell and Bachalo leaving while their work was declining wasn't enough, the people they brought in just essentially wrote it as a Saturday morning cartoon show, a bad one at that, and it never really recovered.

The M Debacle.

One of the biggest story arcs from this series was the mystery of Monet S. Croix, which, like many other things in the X-Men franchise was originally something quite simple that ballooned into something hyper complicated.

The original concept behind Monet is that there wasn't a Monet. The persona known as Monet St. Croix was just really two twin girls named Claudette and Nicole in a gestalt form. Lobdell even confirms this in interviews he had after the series had ended. He didn;t wirte the issue where it happens but the M does actually get split up during a Sentinel attack.

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

I suppose when Larry Hama came along he either liked the idea that Generation X had a standard bruiser, Rogue-like character in M and decided to bring her back by revealing the real M was trapped in the body of Penance.

The reason this happened was because in an issue earlier on the series Monet is knocked out and she comes to she is weary and sees Penance standing in front of her and inattentively says “S-Sister??” Now, I think she was really just talking to herself as it had been teased throughout the original 25 issues that Monet is not what she seems but fans seemed to think that she is directly referring to Penance as her sibling.

Confusing as it sounds, Hama went with the fan theory and had “the real” Monet turned into Penance while the twins assumed the form of their sister, Monet. They eventually switched and the twins wound up trapped as Penance Later on, when Faerber was writing he had the twins escape the Penance form and the Penance form had someone else trapped in it and ran off....

So, this horrible, convoluted explanation also ruined Penance, who, from what I understand, was supposed to be some tortured mutant from a war torn Yugoslavia.

Anyways, years later, Speedball took the name Penance after the events of Civil War and Penance lost her name and just goes by “Hollow” now.

Issues 64-75

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Desperate to keep the series afloat they call in Warren Ellis, who writes some interesting stuff but can't save it.

Warren Ellis jumps on during the “Revolutions” gimmick they did to the X-Men franchise in the year 2000 where the X-Men characters were all given horrible costume redesigns. Generation X was no exception. While he writes some more grounded, visceral stories, it just feels so abruptly different from the stuff that came before it that it works to the series detriment. A lot of the characters barely make reference to events that have happened before hand as well, like the fact that the school had been opened to the public and had tragedy accompany it.

The final set of issues is written by Brian Wood. Nothing much to say about it. Adrienne Frost blows up the school killing Synch, which would be sad, if Synch wasn't so uninteresting.

Down the line Emma Frost would ascend to prominence in the X-men franchise, Banshee and Skin are killed at separate points in time, Chamber and Husk both had brief stints as X-men, Jubilee appears every now and then, M is an X-Men regular and I have no idea where Penance/Hollow is.

A pretty dour, disappointing ending to a series with tons of potential.

Generation Next

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This Generation X's “story arc” during the “Age of Apocalypse crossover, and honestly is probably the best thing to come out the Bachalo and Lobdell team up.

In this reality the team is led by Colossus and Shadowcat instead of Banshee and Emma Frost and the story is basically that they had to rescue Illyana Rasputin from “the Core” where she was enslaved.

The team this time is rounded out by Husk, Chamber, Skin, a new character named Vincente who can turn into a gaseous form and later shows up in the regular continuity as a villain, M, who functions as a cerebro type character as twin children, and Mondo is featured as a simpleton who constantly uses his powers of organic material manipulation to seem like some sort of gigantic golem as opposed to an actual mutant with powers.

This series is actually Bachalo and Lobdell firing on all cylinders and I would actually recommend this over the regular series. Nice blend of drama, comedy and adventure. Bachalo's graffiti like art style is also pertinent to the designs of characters who would otherwise seem ridiculous looking like “Sugar Man” and “Quietus”.


Apparently, Marvel put a lot of eggs in the Generation X basket. Perhaps they had a lot of faith in two of their premiere talents in Bachalo and Lobdell and thought Generation X was going to take off and be as big as the X-Men themselves....

Not only did they get their own toyline and a crossover with Gen13 from Wildstorm comics but they also had a series of novels. Three altogether, and yes, I read them all when I was a kid....because I liked to read dammit!!

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

The first novel (the one on the right) was co written by Scott Lobdell and featured the character D'Spayre psychically wearing down the team by having them see visions of the dead Hellions. The characters actually received a lot more development in this novel than they did in the main series. In this book you learn through inner monologues and psychic visions that Synch's powers can potentially do a lot more than just mimic powers, Chamber has the potential to wield god like powers as a living conduit of bio-kinetic/psychic energy and, as I mentioned before, it is revealed that Penance is from war torn Eastern Europe. They also had another member join who was called “Stasis”. He died of cancer at the end of the book if I recall correctly.

The events of this novel are actually compounded and retold in one of the Generation X annuals. Though, obviously the annual doesn't go into as much detail as the novel provides.

The second novel is called “Crossroads” and just featured the team on a road trip being hunted by some government agency. Nothing particularly memorable about it.

The last novel, which is also not that good is called “GenoGoths” featured some doctor taking mutants with weak powers and deformities and augmenting them into killing machines. Essentially the plot of like fifty X-Men stories. Now, a lot more happened in the last two novels but I don't remember since it has been quite a long time since I have read them. The first one was a lot better than the latter two, so, I guess I have an easier time recalling that one.

Finally, there was a Generation X movie. Yes, you heard that right, there was a Generation X made for TV movie that was supposed to serve as a pilot for a prime time series.

Ultimately it was pretty bad. They didn't have the money for the effects it would take to correctly portray they powers or appearances of Chamber, Husk or Penance, so, they are absent. Skin has the powers of Mr Fantastic more so than his actual powers, and Jubilee is suspiciously not Asian, and Mondo is like a completely different character. This is also the first time I recall Emma Frost having a British accent as many future appearances outside the comics would also indicate.

Essentially everything you would pretty much expect from mid 90's super hero adaption. Matt Frewer essentially emulates Jim Carrey's portrayal of the Riddler from “Batman Forever” and even has a machine that can do similar to what The Riddler built in said film, and he uses it to invade the teenagers of Generation X's dreams.

You can watch it on Youtube. Although I think you should do something else with your time.

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Final thoughts....

Overall the series always felt like it should have perhaps been a mini series. I tend to look back it with rose colored glasses kind of ignorant to the fact that this series was never actually that good. I remember characters like Chamber and Penance looking unique and Bachalo's art jumping off the page but I tend to forget how tedious and how inconsequential nearly everything was in this series. I mean how often does Emma Frost mention anything about her time with this team or interact with any of its former members in the current day?? Not much.

I think people tend to hold it in high esteem because it is attached to the mid 90's era of X-Men. A point in time where the X-Men were highly commercialized and they were very much victims of their own success. Generation X seemed to be something Marvel had faith but unfortunately just wound up being sort of an inessential novelty.

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#7 Posted by cattlebattle (15718 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll never understand for the life of me why everything has to be re imagined into a gritty, realistic remake. The charm of the Power Rangers series, specifically the original one, was that it was this stupid show that was part "Saved by the Bell" and part weird ass Japanese footage of people dressed in spandex and fighting rubber monsters while shooting lasers everywhere.

It is the last thing I would expect someone to take seriously.

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#8 Posted by cattlebattle (15718 posts) - - Show Bio

@esco1199 said:

@invain: @koays: @poisonfleur: @sprior93: There is no IF, they lost as soon has fox gave them back the rights to fantastic 4. It took a brilliant but ruthless "experiment"...cease all comics, stop making toys/collectibles, make the fantastic 4 seem invisible (no pun intended) and starve them out. If you take away all the marketing and merchandise from a super hero movie guess what happens...yep? Marvel has already started the same process with X-Men, as with F4, the merchandise would benefit Fox more than Marvel even though Fox does not get a profit from merchandise its still free advertising. Disney has so much money and afford to cancel everything (besides the movies) related to X-Men...think about it they can continue with the comics and merchandise and make some cash or take a hit and cancel all the merchandise for a couple years until Fox sells or the rights reverted back to Marvel.

Sorry to burst your bubble...

You would think......however, the X-Men is a more profitable franchise and has a much, much larger, much more faithful following than the Fantastic Four. The X-Men usually have several titles that all sell pretty well, better than a lot of other titles. Marvel isn't doing too well with comic sales these days but the X-Men titles usually place behind Spider-Man and the Star Wars books.

The most likely outcome is that the X-Men get blended with the Inhumans and the books become the "Uncanny NuHmans" or something along those lines.

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#9 Edited by cattlebattle (15718 posts) - - Show Bio

Why would anyone be concerned about this?? It's not exactly like the X-Men comics themselves are a glimmering paradigm of continuity.

I mean characters like Karma and Forge were involved with Vietnam (the war) and both somehow still look 25. Every dead X-Man has come back to life and the X-Men interact with all sorts of alternate universes regularly.

It seems the X-Men films are absolutely faithful to the comics in a strange way.

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#10 Posted by cattlebattle (15718 posts) - - Show Bio

Why can't you keep politics out of unrelated threads.

Why you mad though??

If Trump was really winning why do you have to try so hard to reinforce it?

What does that have to do with anything??