I was thinking about THe Killing Joke and about how The Joker had a wife, Jeannie. Jeannie seemed to love "Jack" (or who ever) with all of her heart, and he seemed to really return the affection. On the night of his Red Hood excersion (typo?), the corrupt police officer shot Jeannie. My thought was, did her death push the Joker over the edge? was the accident only a fraction of what made him go insane? What wouldve happened if "jack" still fell into the vat of toxic waste while Jeannie was alive? Would he still have become the Joker? Would he still be alive? Anyway, these are just my random thoughts.

again i apologize for the typoes...

Exactly! I mean, her death was already so devastating to him. The toxin may have just been salt to the wound. It wouldve been really cool to see how the writers would have protrayed him if Jeannie had never died. I wonder how she would react to the drastic changes. more importantly, how would the child she was carrying be affected? Would he have been so insane that Jeannie considered her child unsafe? My thinking is probably. But it also depends on the magnitude of his sanity... ((sorry if I am sound a bit too scholarly...i just like having "intellegent" conversations about topics that interest me....ugh there I go again.))

@pinkdaizygirl said:

I was thinking about THe Killing Joke and about how The Joker had a wife, Jeannie. Jeannie seemed to love "Jack" (or who ever) with all of her heart, and he seemed to really return the affection. On the night of his Red Hood excersion (typo?), the corrupt police officer shot Jeannie. My thought was, did her death push the Joker over the edge? was the accident only a fraction of what made him go insane? What wouldve happened if "jack" still fell into the vat of toxic waste while Jeannie was alive? Would he still have become the Joker? Would he still be alive? Anyway, these are just my random thoughts.

Well, the chemicals no doubt messed with his brain chemistry, but Jeannie's death no doubt contributed….one thing to consider would be DID JEANNIE ACTUALLY EXIST, OR IS SHE MERELY A FIGMENT OF THE JOKER'S TWISTED MIND?!

That is an extremely good point!! The toxins may have messed with his mind SO much that it twisted his memories. I never thought of that. Hmm....there is also a connection between Harley and Jeannie, though they are small... 1) They are both Blondes. 2) they are both pregnant, but Joker never got to see the child. (arkham city reference) One more thing... In the Dark Knight, Joker mentioned how he had a wife...of course, it was part of his scar story, which are all lies...((or are they??)). Could his so called wife be Jeannie?

@pinkdaizygirl: The thing with Joker is that he has multiple origin stories, each contradictory. My guess is that there is a grain of truth in each…but much of it is just sick phantasy. It's possible that Joker inserted a close friend…Harley…into his memories of a non-existant event.

The truth is a fusion of Killing Joke, Lovers and Madmen, and AT LEAST one or two more.

very true...His life is so sad...Im hoping that maybe someday that DC will release a story explaining his TRUE identity and back story...its probably unlikely, especially since Joker's character somewhat revolves around his anonymity.

@pinkdaizygirl: But don't you think having the full story would take away much of what Joker is?

yes, it would...it seriously would. The joke would be ruined, and so would the Joker...((good lord im sounding like a 19th century mark twain character...))

The Killing Joke origin makes most sense to me, even if I don't follow it down to a letter. I think he used to be an average, law-abiding citizen. Had he been a cold-blooded killer criminal, he would not have become the "ideologically" chaotic threat he is. Someone who had adapted to a life of a career criminal wouldn't go insane like that. I think of it this way; you can't fall down without dropping from somewhere high. Mobsters and such are low to begin with. That is why they don't get warped easily. Joker has had genuine moments of clarity and moments of remorse (when briefly sane), which would be pretty much impossible if there had never been a decent human being to begin with.

I think he was a fragile, normal guy who might have had some minor mental issues (depression etc.) before his "really bad day". The financial problems, his low self-esteem, failure as a comedian, death of his family and finally getting disfigured were the killing blows. There is a seed of truth to Moore's own criticism of a man going insane in a single day, but I don't think it went like that. We can only guess how bad he had it before the day he fell into that vat.

Besides, I think him being "normal" before being Joker makes him creepier than him being a thug. It's a lot scarier to think that someone like you and me could become a monster like that.

Thanks for the Arkham City spoiler. I don't like you anymore.

@JoyGirl i am so sorry i wasnt thinking when i posted that...:(

Croaker, I agree. A day can only go so bad until you go completely insane...he was pushed a little further than normal. And I never took possible psychological issues he may have had into account.

But to answer the original question; no, I don't think he would have become the way he is now - if we believe the Killing Joker origin and assume he had a pregnant wife. Getting disfigured would have been a shock, but I think that if he still had his family, he would have stayed sane.

Right. I agree.