Jason Todd was the second Robin, until he was brutally murdered by the Joker. After he was resurrected, Jason learned Batman didn't avenge his death. Anguished and seeking vengeance, he initially turned against his mentor and father figure and took on the Clown Prince's former identity: the Red Hood. He eventually returned to the Bat-Family and assembled a team of anti-heroes known as the Outlaws.
@rurgandy: Is this why i've posted numerous scans proving any argument you could make wrong? Lets see your scans countering my main point? Oh yeah, you don't have any because Jason's current feats stand well above anyone in the bat family.
Talons a great example for how much things depend on the writer. In most Tie Ins the main character was somehow able to take down his Talon on his own, but the Birds of Prey had enormous problems handling one of them as a team. Despite having with Black Canary and Katana two top fighters (with powers) on the team.
I forgot to mention that in We Are Robin one Talon nearly killed the whole team and could iirc only be stopped by Alfred with Machine Gun, but in Robin War the "Robins" could suddenly fight the Talons.
Jason was even was in Robin War even able to break the arm and the neck of a Talon without much problems.
@admiralbuttz: And meanwhile there are countless other scans that show him being a punching bag. It's almost funny that there's an inverse correlation between the ability of the writer, and how much the writer spends trying to pander to Jason Todd fans.
@rurgandy: So what you're butthurt Hood has better feats now? No point in whining about something you have no control over.
He doesn't, Red Hood's "feats" include:
Defeating a bullet proof character using bullets (Deathstroke), automatic PIS.
Using a plot device sword to block a blow from Supergirl, said sword has been used like 3 times in the last 5 years, just once by it's creator.
Defeating Lady Shiva, complete and utter PIS, check out her showings in Secret Six, Nightwing and Prometheus description of her in Midnighter series. It was PIS even without using other books. Jason just tells Shiva that she taught him a chop that he is going to use to defeat her . Shiva would not only have to be slow and unskilled to avoid a chop but also dumb to tell Jason in the first place and both blind and deaf to not see or hear him literally telling her what he was going to do.
A one page retelling of the UTRH fight with Jason supposedly having the upper hand, even though in the actual series Batman stomped him.
An inconclusive fight with Cass that mostly took place off panel and later proven that she was just testing him.
Beyond that:
Jason has lost to Damian twice
Was thrashed by Bane despite having Tim for backup
Has repeatedly struggled to beat a single Talon
Couldn't beat one Orphan
Lost to Harper Row
Lost to Batgirl
Couldn't beat Azrael even with Tim as back up.
Jason has far more low showings period, Nightwing wins. Frankly as long as Jason gets stuck in terrible books no one beyond hardcore fans is going to take his feats seriously. His All-Caste training literally had him go to sleep and wake up with new skills, come on now, no writer worth his oats is ever going to follow up on that.
Thats also something I would call PIS. In the first occasion Damian was easily beaten up by Tim (who is usually portrait as a weaker fighter than Jason) in the same story line. The second Time Duke Thomas (who is basically an amateur) was able to hold his own against Damian after he easily took out Tim and Jason.
Btw. the reason for the fight between Jason and Damain was iirc that Damian wanted to beat every other Robin in the area were they are the best, and it was Jason he choose to fight against.
He only fought two Talons iirc, in the fight in RHaTO it is hard to say who was better, since we actually didn't see much of the fight, the Talon hid him one with the knive and than run away. And in Robin WAR he was quite easily able to break the neck of the Talon the problem was just that the Talon had a healing Factor and Jason nothing to take him down permanently.
And sorry but the writers of both Eternal series mostly failed to write Jason, not only his skill but his complete personality and character. When you think that he should be written like in that series, than we have a completly incompatible view of this character.
And again the power levels in the Eternals are imo completely over the place, who won fights there had nothing to do with any skills, it just depended of what the story required and how the writers wanted to look awesome. The character (appart from Midnighter) that had the best showing against Orphans in the series was Spoiler, who is not even close to the levels of the other guys in that book. Even Gordon in his Robo Suit couldn't take an orphan down.
: Ahh yes, and here we have angry weeaboo number two.Using literally any autistic argument his brain can dream up to argue against scans written by a variety of different writers. Do you need a pacifier so you don't cry a little more? I know I posted pre 52 scans to prove a point but the context of the fight, which you have beautifully ignored to make your butt mad argument was New 52 only and Nightwing's New 52 showings aren't that great. THE ONLY REASON JASON HAS SUCH LOW SHOWINGS AT ALL IS BECAUSE OF EXTREME WRITER BIAS. But of course I have to sit here and wait for your fanboy, too much time spent on comic vine response. Jesus Christ you super mad weebs come out of the cracks and crevices to make some shitty argument on the daily. Literally your whole argument was based on Pre 52 feats. Nice job cucking yourself.
Found the best picture of entropy I could find.
I ran down a list of ALL Jason Tood NEW-52 showings, stop acting like a butthurt retard. You were give credible arguments, instead you have chosen to attack me personally and cook up some writer bias, Oh and I've never talked to you before, so you addressing me like that is strange, is that you All-Star Superman?
Thats also something I would call PIS. In the first occasion Damian was easily beaten up by Tim (who is usually portrait as a weaker fighter than Jason) in the same story line. The second Time Duke Thomas (who is basically an amateur) was able to hold his own against Damian after he easily took out Tim and Jason.
Btw. the reason for the fight between Jason and Damain was iirc that Damian wanted to beat every other Robin in the area were they are the best, and it was Jason he choose to fight against.
He only fought two Talons iirc, in the fight in RHaTO it is hard to say who was better, since we actually didn't see much of the fight, the Talon hid him one with the knive and than run away. And in Robin WAR he was quite easily able to break the neck of the Talon the problem was just that the Talon had a healing Factor and Jason nothing to take him down permanently.
And sorry but the writers of both Eternal series mostly failed to write Jason, not only his skill but his complete personality and character. When you think that he should be written like in that series, than we have a completly incompatible view of this character.
And again the power levels in the Eternals are imo completely over the place, who won fights there had nothing to do with any skills, it just depended of what the story required and how the writers wanted to look awesome. The character (appart from Midnighter) that had the best showing against Orphans in the series was Spoiler, who is not even close to the levels of the other guys in that book. Even Gordon in his Robo Suit couldn't take an orphan down.
It's not PIS if it's consistent, Damian has two back to back victories over Jason in the New-52. Frankly keeping in to account Damian's showings against Slade and Heretic in the New-52 it's not difficult to buy that he has indeed surpassed Jason and Tim both of whom have been in meanderland for years. Consistency and development validate feats and Damian has that. Similarly Duke was oneshotted by Damian twice in Robin War, all he showed the third time was resiliency because Damian was still fodderizing him.
Azrael had the upperhand, that's why Jason ran away, it's pretty clear what would have happened had the fight continued. Az is powerful so there's no shame in it.
Could've dodged the taser and the insulation properties of the suits vary from writer to writer.
But other characters have beaten Talons, notably Dick and Damian, Jason's inability to do so doesn't speak highly of his skills and much touted upgrades.
True Eternal was inconsistent especially by it's end but what's the alternative here? beating a bullet proof character with bullets? or beating the worlds greatest fighter with a chop by telling her she is about to be chopped? these two showings are equally inconsistent if not more.
It's not PIS if it's consistent, Damian has two back to back victories over Jason in the New-52. Frankly keeping in to account Damian's showings against Slade and Heretic in the New-52 it's not difficult to buy that he has indeed surpassed Jason and Tim both of whom have been in meanderland for years.
Tim beat the crap out of Damian one issue before his first fight against Jason. Damians skill is anyway completely crazy in the new 52, in the last issues of his series they basically turned Batman into his support character.
Azrael had the upperhand, that's why Jason ran away, it's pretty clear what would have happened had the fight continued. Az is powerful so there's no shame in it.
But they didn't fought, and since they had reached their goal, Tim was unconscious, and more troops of the Order of St Dumas were on their way, it didn't made much sense to continue the fight.
But other characters have beaten Talons, notably Dick and Damian, Jason's inability to do so doesn't speak highly of his skills and much touted upgrades.
Talons were super inconsistent (or maybe you could say that some Talons were much more powerfull than others), the one in Birds of Prey went against Black Canary and Katana at the same time and and even took the Canary Cry (and iirc being hit by a car) without problems, while Damian iirc shot his Talon iirc with a Grapple Gun (not such a great martial arts feat).
True Eternal was inconsistent especially by it's end but what's the alternative here? beating a bullet proof character with bullets? or beating the worlds greatest fighter with a chop by telling her she is about to be chopped? these two showings are equally inconsistent if not more.
No idea, but Damians feats in his own book, are imo even more ridiculous and unrealistic than what happens in Jasons book, based on this he is probably superior to Dick or even Batman. And Damian had just the "luck" not to be in Eternal for the most part (and has in general not many appearances out side of his own story lines), and his showing in Eternal were also not great (he also couldn't handle an orphan and was one shotted by mother), who would by your logic than be a better fighter than Deathstroke.
And the fight between Jason and Deathstroke happend in Deathstroke, so you can't blame that on Jason writers (and btw. I don't think that the Deathstroke wirters made great job in writing Jason).
It's not PIS if it's consistent, Damian has two back to back victories over Jason in the New-52. Frankly keeping in to account Damian's showings against Slade and Heretic in the New-52 it's not difficult to buy that he has indeed surpassed Jason and Tim both of whom have been in meanderland for years.
Tim beat the crap out of Damian one issue before his first fight against Jason. Damians skill is anyway completely crazy in the new 52, in the last issues of his series they basically turned Batman into his support character.
Azrael had the upperhand, that's why Jason ran away, it's pretty clear what would have happened had the fight continued. Az is powerful so there's no shame in it.
But they didn't fought, and since they had reached their goal, Tim was unconscious, and more troops of the Order of St Dumas were on their way, it didn't made much sense to continue the fight.
But other characters have beaten Talons, notably Dick and Damian, Jason's inability to do so doesn't speak highly of his skills and much touted upgrades.
Talons were super inconsistent (or maybe you could say that some Talons were much more powerfull than others), the one in Birds of Prey went against Black Canary and Katana at the same time and and even took the Canary Cry (and iirc being hit by a car) without problems, while Damian iirc shot his Talon iirc with a Grapple Gun (not such a great martial arts feat).
True Eternal was inconsistent especially by it's end but what's the alternative here? beating a bullet proof character with bullets? or beating the worlds greatest fighter with a chop by telling her she is about to be chopped? these two showings are equally inconsistent if not more.
No idea, but Damians feats in his own book, are imo even more ridiculous and unrealistic than what happens in Jasons book, based on this he is probably superior to Dick or even Batman. And Damian had just the "luck" not to be in Eternal for the most part (and has in general not many appearances out side of his own story lines), and his showing in Eternal were also not great (he also couldn't handle an orphan and was one shotted by mother), who would by your logic than be a better fighter than Deathstroke.
And the fight between Jason and Deathstroke happend in Deathstroke, so you can't blame that on Jason writers (and btw. I don't think that the Deathstroke wirters made great job in writing Jason).
Damian has obviously improved since then, Tim conversely hasnt had many credible showings at all and obviously Batman would be a supporting character in a book not about him.
Az deflected Tim's projectile back at Jason rather easily and seeing as Az had that weird touch thingy and was physically going toe to toe with Bane it doesn't take much to imagine him destroying Jason which Jason clearly knew would happen.
The inconsistency of the Talons doesn't change the fact that people can and have beaten them, Jason has had no such luck so far and Damian grappled him from behind and sent the hook straight through it's eye, which didnt do anything at all.
Damian only has one battle forum worthy feat in his own book and that one had lots of context and circumstances.
I already acknowledged that Eternal was inconsistent but the likes of Bane, Az, Slade, Shiva unlike Mother are proven characters.
Damian has obviously improved since then, Tim conversely hasnt had many credible showings at all and obviously Batman would be a supporting character in a book not about him.
I don't buy that Damian improved from on issue to the next (Batman and Robin #10 and #11 iirc) from being beaten up by Tim to being better than Jason.
The inconsistency of the Talons doesn't change the fact that people can and have beaten them, Jason has had no such luck so far and Damian grappled him from behind and sent the hook straight through it's eye, which didnt do anything at all.
I already acknowledged that Eternal was inconsistent but the likes of Bane, Az, Slade, Shiva unlike Mother are proven characters.
Still if you compare for example the fight between Jason and Bane in B&RE with the fight between him and Brick in the pre crisis Green Arrow, than you can imo clearly see how this was handled wrong. I wouldn't say that Jason should be able to take down Bane in hand to hand combat (thats something no nonsuperhuman including Batman and Shiva should be able to do), but he should be able to dodge him if he is just charging at him and he should use his weapons.
And new 52 Az is not proven, we don't really know how powerfull he is in comparison to the old version (who was metahuman and not only brain washed).
Damian has obviously improved since then, Tim conversely hasnt had many credible showings at all and obviously Batman would be a supporting character in a book not about him.
I don't buy that Damian improved from on issue to the next (Batman and Robin #10 and #11 iirc) from being beaten up by Tim to being better than Jason.
The inconsistency of the Talons doesn't change the fact that people can and have beaten them, Jason has had no such luck so far and Damian grappled him from behind and sent the hook straight through it's eye, which didnt do anything at all.
I already acknowledged that Eternal was inconsistent but the likes of Bane, Az, Slade, Shiva unlike Mother are proven characters.
Still if you compare for example the fight between Jason and Bane in B&RE with the fight between him and Brick in the pre crisis Green Arrow, than you can imo clearly see how this was handled wrong. I wouldn't say that Jason should be able to take down Bane in hand to hand combat (thats something no nonsuperhuman including Batman and Shiva should be able to do), but he should be able to dodge him if he is just charging at him and he should use his weapons.
And new 52 Az is not proven, we don't really know how powerfull he is in comparison to the old version (who was metahuman and not only brain washed).
His feats and their consistency suggests that, that's what Damian has over Jason consistency. The average Damian showing> average Jason showing, it's the averages that are used in battle forums not outliers. Many people would even argue that Jason beating Tim is also dodgy atleast if we go by pre-52 continuity. Todd was just Robin for a few months, then he died and spent six months dead, then he was a vegetable for year before he was hastily trained by fodder. Then you have Tim who was Robin for 5-6 years during which he partnered with Bruce, Dick and Cass and he was trained by Shiva. I mention pre-52 because that's the continuity in which Jason had decisive showings against Tim.
Couldn't stop him, the Talon was fine.
Bane isn't Brick, Bane has h2h skill and agility and has fought various members of the Batfamily over the years. If Jason uses his gimmicks then so will Bane and we're back to square one. The guns were addressed in the comic, Bane played him.
New-52 Azrael has good showings, current JPV is better than classic JPV. It may change later but this guy blew up a city and has a magic touch power that made both Tim and Bane useless. Physically he was keeping up with Bane and overwhelming Tim, Jason and Dick. He also has fear toxin like chemicals.
Many people would even argue that Jason beating Tim is also dodgy atleast if we go by pre-52 continuity. Todd was just Robin for a few months, then he died and spent six months dead, then he was a vegetable for year before he was hastily trained by fodder. Then you have Tim who was Robin for 5-6 years during which he partnered with Bruce, Dick and Cass and he was trained by Shiva. I mention pre-52 because that's the continuity in which Jason had decisive showings against Tim.
The Death of the Family tie ins made it quite clear that Tim is not on Jasons level when it comes to maritial arts. And Jasons trainers were selected by Talia, who was also responsible for finding Damians trainers, I doubt that these guys were fodder.
Btw. Tim was with Shiva for 2 weeks at best, and most of the time they were hunting King Snake and not training. And for at least 50% of his time as Robin, he and Bruce had next to no contact.
Even if Jason would only as good as Tim, it still leaves the fact that Tim beat Damian, so that Daiman being able to fight Jason makes no sense.
Btw. I looked in court of owls, the only one (maybe appart from Bruce I didn't reread the main story) that defeated a Talon in close combat was Dick, and even he need a sword to do so and was wounded in the during the fight, and only won against Talon Nr. 2 by luring him in a trap.
Damian shot his Talon from behind with a grapple gun, hung him in a tree (in a way that is physically impossible), so that he was defenceless and decapitated him. Batwing used explosive projetiles and the Birds of prey their whole team. Batgirl didn't stop her Talon. And Catwomans (who had the help of a Metahuman with electric powers) was shot by the Penguin, when she was negotiating with him.
So snapping the neck of a Talon (even if that doesn't kill him) without any weapons is not a small feat.
New-52 Azrael has good showings, current JPV is better than classic JPV. It may change later but this guy blew up a city and has a magic touch power that made both Tim and Bane useless. Physically he was keeping up with Bane and overwhelming Tim, Jason and Dick.
He has this magic brainwash thing, but if he really has the physical metahuman abilities is imo not really confirmed. We know imo not enough about him to call him a known quantity.
Your last post, isn't something we allow at CV, will only get you a warning and eventually banned. Like this warning. Avoid all the personal insults you used, talking about other users butts, and throwing out accusations the other guy is super mad and angry. No one actually starts thinking the user is angry or mad because someone starts throwing that out. It usually makes the person making the accusation seem that way or alternatively if you realize that and are just trying to annoy the user, trolling. So either way, please try to avoid that.
Otherwise welcome to CV, try and be kinder with your interactions with other users in the future, and if you have questions or concerns feel free to PM myself or another moderator. Cheers.
@entropy_aegis: Hello. Whilst I understand your reaction given the other users instigating and insults, please try and avoid referring to others as acting as "butthurt retards" or talking about other users/what alts they are (in case they aren't) everything else is fine, and they are warned now. This is not a warning, but yeah, something to try remember in the future. Cheers.
@entropy_aegis: I love this guy. You call me a "butthurt retard" yet I actually provided scans to back up what I was saying. Not only did you have no legitimate retort when I said you based all claims on Pre 52 feats, you dodged the statement all together. In fact, all you've this whole thread is provide opinions as to why certain Red Hood feats don't matter or apply. That's literally all you've done. You've added nothing substantial New 52 wise saying why Nightwing would win. I hope you realize complaining about the creative decisions of writers doesn't count as an actual argument.
@sc: I find it pretty funny that I get a warning for off beat comments but other users don't.
You mean in this thread? Its because you were instigating (the person who started with the personal insults) so if you are in another thread and some user starts insulting you personally and excessively, and you throw one or two insults back at them? You can totally tag me in and they will get the warning and you probably won't. More of an informal reminder to just flag the user. If you don't mean in this thread then PM me with a link and reference and I'll see what I can do.
Btw. I looked in court of owls, the only one (maybe appart from Bruce I didn't reread the main story) that defeated a Talon in close combat was Dick, and even he need a sword to do so and was wounded in the during the fight, and only won against Talon Nr. 2 by luring him in a trap.
Damian shot his Talon from behind with a grapple gun, hung him in a tree (in a way that is physically impossible), so that he was defenceless and decapitated him. Batwing used explosive projetiles and the Birds of prey their whole team. Batgirl didn't stop her Talon. And Catwomans (who had the help of a Metahuman with electric powers) was shot by the Penguin, when she was negotiating with him.
So snapping the neck of a Talon (even if that doesn't kill him) without any weapons is not a small feat.
I the comparison between Dick and Damian actually also shows how inconsistent the Talons are. Dick killed his Talon by stabbing him with an escrima stick through an eye. When Damian shot his Talon with the grapple gun in pretty much the same way, it didn't stop the Talon at all.
With the power niveau of Talon ranging from being a serious thread for the whole Birds of Prey team to loosing against "We are Robin" Kids, they are not really a good baseline for anything.
@aahz: I completely agree. The power of the Talons is inconsistent, but i've said and provided scans in this thread time and time again showing Nightwing is not on Hoods level New 52. This thread only pertains to New 52, unless someone has a better argument with scans to back it up, I don't see any reason why Nightwing would win this fight.
I still love this thread. @entropy_aegis tries soo hard to put Dick above Jason in the New 52 but reality is always just a little too harsh. Maybe try DC Rebirth mate. Literally all you did this whole thread was apply Pre New 52 feats to a New 52 thread. Just in case reading is too hard, NEW 52 FEATS ONLY. I guess that little bit of information was just far to complex for anyone to understand.
I did post a few scans earlier that were Pre 52 but I only did that to prove a point that wasn't even about Nightwing. I fully acknowledged those feats didn't apply in this specific fight the thread was based around. @rurgandy:
@rurgandy: The mod didn't comment on anything other than my behavior towards another user. I mean really what're you trying to prove here? You literally have no point to make. I'll admit that I have a bias for Red Hood, but i'm not stupid and I can acknowledge when Red Hood would win or loose. In this specific thread I feel I provided more substantial evidence as to why he would win. Within the specific parameter of just New 52 feats. Meanwhile you have had an extreme bias since your first post in this thread and won't even acknowledge it, yeah you might say something about it after this but you literally didn't say anything about it while calling me hypocritical. Nice job dude.
Who comes back 20 days after the fact, tags the person they were disagreeing with, and tries to get in the last word? One of the most pointless things i've ever seen.
The user was warned, we don't have to start up things with them after the fact, and we also do not have to talk about other users, entropy_aegis for example, and their motivations. Basically I am not sure the need for you guys discussion, but lets drop it, and focus on the on topic subject of thread. Thank you.
@persiboss: Even close range Red Hood has quite a few advantages. He's bigger, stronger, and arguably faster (not to be confused with acrobatics). Jason has a lot more diverse hand-to-hand training too.
@persiboss: disagree, I believe Red Hood is superior in h2h now. Only advantage nightwing has is agility which can be countered with red hoods superior martial art skill and strength.
@nathaniel_christopher: yeah he did just check hes vine page and heres some proof to go with that. he breaks out of super girls grip escapes without supergirl noticing and super girl mentions that he is stronger than your average human
sorry if you cant see the dialogue but you can always google it ;)
@billythegod lol no he didn't. Not sure where on his page or any page you're looking, especially since that's not one of the effects of the Lazarus Pit. Furthermore, unless that scan says that "Jason's strength was enhanced by the Lazarus Pit" then it doesn't prove your claim. It proves he's stronger than an average human, which could mean anything and have come from anywhere seeing the extent of training he's been through. Batman is also stronger than an average human and has been since Year One, when he was kicking trees down. Didn't mean that he was enhanced in any way.
Only possible section of his page that I could think you're talking about is this
"Jason has trained his body to peak physical condition, being physically superior to most Olympic athletes but that may be due to the healing of the Lazarus Pit."
I don't see how though, when it specifically states the word may, meaning that whether or not Jason being superior to most Olympic athletes is due to being healed by the pit is up in the air. Furthermore, the fact that it states most means he's not superior to all Olympic athletes, which further means he's not enhanced beyond the abilities of all humans lol not even sure why you'd take that seriously when the same line mentions he trained his body to peak physical condition, but ok.
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