I think that if Jason wasn't looking out for Scarlett he wouldn't have gotten beat by Flamingo. Same for Dick. Had Dick not been more worried about Damian then Dick could have beat him too.
Jason Todd
Character » Jason Todd appears in 1754 issues.
Jason Todd was the second Robin, until he was brutally murdered by the Joker. After he was resurrected, Jason learned Batman didn't avenge his death. Anguished and seeking vengeance, he initially turned against his mentor and father figure and took on the Clown Prince's former identity: the Red Hood. He eventually returned to the Bat-Family and assembled a team of anti-heroes known as the Outlaws.
Off My Mind: The Return of Jason Todd (Again)
"I think that if Jason wasn't looking out for Scarlett he wouldn't have gotten beat by Flamingo. Same for Dick. Had Dick not been more worried about Damian then Dick could have beat him too. "
i believe Jason got the last laugh on him,even though i'm told he's still alive
" @daredevil21134: I agree with you on that one bro. And if he is still alive then lets have another showdown. One to see who the better one is for real this time. "
xd
Getting shot in the head from afar twice tends to take you off your A game.
You ever wonder why no one shoots Batman in the head? It'd take him off his A game.
We can't have that, can we?
@viin
said: Get out the hell out of my cave." i say let jason todd somehow be the next joker "
Everything is explained in that last panel, the "dirty, twisted, cruel, and ugly dungheap world" he is referring to isnt the DC universe."
It's ours, Jason is nearing meta-awareness because of all the ridiculous things he has been through since his creation.
He was the Dick Grayson clone, "He wanted me to be you"
Fans didn't like that, so he was retconned in the first Crisis, changing his hair to black, and altering the origin story from another circus performer to a street hoodlum with an attitude.
The opposite of Dick.
Fans didn't like that, so he was killed off in "A Death in the Family"
He was "brought back" in Hush to mess with Batman's head, idea springs up of "hey he was the badass Robin, lets make him the Badass Anti-Hero in the Bat Family since Azrael is dead"
Retconned into existence by the Superboy Prime Punch, becomes a Anti-Hero that puts Batman into some awkward situations. Fans rage over his actual resurrection.
Goes back and forth as an Anti-Villain for a while, gets involved with the disaster that is Countdown. No one likes that. Following Bruce's departure elevated to full villain status. Fans complain about that.
Grant Morrison tells us of all of this in Batman & Robin, he wasn't messing up his character, he was taking it in the next step that it is going in, and it probably will never stop.
Jason wants to be good, he wants to be liked. But its too late, its far too late, and we are the reason. All the character changes he has gone through the years, it's because of us. DC has this character that they want to use, but don't know how, as the fan base will argue over him until he is gone.
Morrison wants to create a living breathing DC universe that is conscious and self aware. He already has, but you just don't know it yet.
" @RedHoodsDen: Hahahahahaha, "Get the hell out of my cave?" You mean "our" cave. "
Exactly bro, OUR
" @Dr. Maxwell: I agree with you on some things here bro. Like the fans being the reason why he is constantly changing in different directions. But I'm gonna have to say that you are so wrong when it come to Morrison and his creating a living, breathing, DC Universe. Cuz I strongly believe that he has kinda f'd up the Batman universe with his batman inc crap. And the way he made Jason act and look. "
agreed
" @Dr. Maxwell: I agree with you on some things here bro. Like the fans being the reason why he is constantly changing in different directions. But I'm gonna have to say that you are so wrong when it come to Morrison and his creating a living, breathing, DC Universe. Cuz I strongly believe that he has kinda f'd up the Batman universe with his batman inc crap. And the way he made Jason act and look. "
Just watch INC will be regarded as the most EPIC batman story ever.leviathan is gonna make joker and Ra's al ghul look like pansies.
You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. I just don't think that the world is big enough to fit Bruce's ego or should I say Batman's ego. I think its dumb that there needs to be a Batman in every part of the world. We get it Batman is Morrison's favorite character but that doesn't mean that the entire world needs a damn Batman.
"You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. I just don't think that the world is big enough to fit Bruce's ego or should I say Batman's ego. I think its dumb that there needs to be a Batman in every part of the world. We get it Batman is Morrison's favorite character but that doesn't mean that the entire world needs a damn Batman. "
I hate Batman Inc,its the reason I stopped reading Batman
personally I think the thencept of fighting the Idea of Evil with the Idea of Batman is a great story idea, considering that Batman shot the Embodiment of all Evil with a gun.
@entropy_aegis: Yeah I can't wait either, already have a few ideas bouncing around in my head.
Frankly it's nice seeing surreal Batman, you can only do a realistic grim Batman for so long before it gets kind of boring.
About the only think I agreed with Morrison on was the notion the people who brag about their vote in the phone poll typically come off as sickos. Vindictive, spiteful, angry little toads that brag about killing something pure like Robin. You can wrap it up in whatever existential bow you'd like, it was sick idea and it speaks volumes about the state of the industry and the fans at the time. THAT is maybe his best point." Everything is explained in that last panel, the "dirty, twisted, cruel, and ugly dungheap world" he is referring to isnt the DC universe." It's ours, Jason is nearing meta-awareness because of all the ridiculous things he has been through since his creation. He was the Dick Grayson clone, "He wanted me to be you" Fans didn't like that, so he was retconned in the first Crisis, changing his hair to black, and altering the origin story from another circus performer to a street hoodlum with an attitude. The opposite of Dick. Fans didn't like that, so he was killed off in "A Death in the Family" He was "brought back" in Hush to mess with Batman's head, idea springs up of "hey he was the badass Robin, lets make him the Badass Anti-Hero in the Bat Family since Azrael is dead" Retconned into existence by the Superboy Prime Punch, becomes a Anti-Hero that puts Batman into some awkward situations. Fans rage over his actual resurrection. Goes back and forth as an Anti-Villain for a while, gets involved with the disaster that is Countdown. No one likes that. Following Bruce's departure elevated to full villain status. Fans complain about that. Grant Morrison tells us of all of this in Batman & Robin, he wasn't messing up his character, he was taking it in the next step that it is going in, and it probably will never stop. Jason wants to be good, he wants to be liked. But its too late, its far too late, and we are the reason. All the character changes he has gone through the years, it's because of us. DC has this character that they want to use, but don't know how, as the fan base will argue over him until he is gone. Morrison wants to create a living breathing DC universe that is conscious and self aware. He already has, but you just don't know it yet. "
His revival was largely popular, even if the means of the resurrection was not. Frankly, I don't think Countdown was poorly received because of the direction they were going for Jason. It was poorly recieved because its plots regarding the mutliverse basically sucked. The irony of the whole thing is Tim would be Robin and Jason would be Red Robin, but Morrison had "other plans" for his own creation, Damian.
I don't see Morrison's statements on Jason as anything truly insightful. The redheaded stepson remarks were around before Grant took him on. So if you want to say his take is good enough for posting in forums at 2 am, sure. Ultimately what Grant did was surround Jason in even more dress-up shtick and typical bat rogues mania and then tried to redeem it with a bit of heavy handed breaking the fourth wall monologue. Maybe you can argue it's the anti-Buddy Baker take on character relationships to the real world, but even that is been there, done that for Morrison. And long term, the meaning he tried to instill there will be lost on other writers, and the character will devolve further into a sad joke.
And if that happens, it destroys a major part of the mythos, which damages Batman.
" Everything is explained in that last panel, the "dirty, twisted, cruel, and ugly dungheap world" he is referring to isnt the DC universe." It's ours, Jason is nearing meta-awareness because of all the ridiculous things he has been through since his creation. He was the Dick Grayson clone, "He wanted me to be you" Fans didn't like that, so he was retconned in the first Crisis, changing his hair to black, and altering the origin story from another circus performer to a street hoodlum with an attitude. The opposite of Dick. Fans didn't like that, so he was killed off in "A Death in the Family" He was "brought back" in Hush to mess with Batman's head, idea springs up of "hey he was the badass Robin, lets make him the Badass Anti-Hero in the Bat Family since Azrael is dead" Retconned into existence by the Superboy Prime Punch, becomes a Anti-Hero that puts Batman into some awkward situations. Fans rage over his actual resurrection. Goes back and forth as an Anti-Villain for a while, gets involved with the disaster that is Countdown. No one likes that. Following Bruce's departure elevated to full villain status. Fans complain about that. Grant Morrison tells us of all of this in Batman & Robin, he wasn't messing up his character, he was taking it in the next step that it is going in, and it probably will never stop. Jason wants to be good, he wants to be liked. But its too late, its far too late, and we are the reason. All the character changes he has gone through the years, it's because of us. DC has this character that they want to use, but don't know how, as the fan base will argue over him until he is gone. Morrison wants to create a living breathing DC universe that is conscious and self aware. He already has, but you just don't know it yet. "Great comments.
As soon as I read Jason's comments about the "ugly dungheap of a world" I immediately thought of all the fans who crowed about killing or talked about rewinding the movie to see Jason being beaten with a crowbar over and over. I thought Scott Snyder took that in an excellent direction when he had people in Gotham bidding on the crowbar used in Jason's death.
[This, of course, is all about a fictional character, but it certainly says something interesting and perhaps a bit provocative about fans and further to that, society in general (Case in point: misogynistic guy like Charlie Sheen sells out a Toronto show in record time... The so-called "bad guys" are treated like rock stars, etc.) ]
Oh the thing about the forums was about Grant. I hope you didn't take that as directed at you. I wouldn't say Jason broke the fourth wall so much as skirted against it. Some of it felt rather forced to me, the phone poll to activate the webcam felt like a reference for reference's sake [let's be honest, Jason would've used an internet poll,lol].
Countdown's a sore subject for me. Not because he didn't become Red Robin but rather because I read 52 issues of that book so that DC could have him take his ball and go home. You don't invest people's time and interest in something you have no intention of having a payoff on. Battle for the Cowl rather disgusts me, not because of the fact it feels like forcing him into the supervillain path Grant put him on, but because they tried to shoehorn in the typical abused child psychotic supervillain past. It demeans everything about Todd. "Oh it's not his death and the injustice of being unavenged that has him so pissed off, it's the hobos that had a go at him behind the dumpster when he was 8". Or the notion he was always a psychotic with delusions of grandeur replacing Bruce. If you demean his service as Robin, you demean Robin. It's why we're not meant to know the truth of "The Diplomat's Son" arc, because the answer would damage the mantle of Robin on some level.
They simply don't think with this character, and I reject that. I reject the notion true evil or true madness is right for this character because it's wrong for Robin, and wrong for Batman. If Bruce's message was truly broadcast, truly recieved, and yet forsaken. Willfully, sanely because of how gravely he was wronged, and because of how others have been wronged out there and that has the son pitted against the father, that is tragedy.
Anything else is just trying to be clever.
"You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. I just don't think that the world is big enough to fit Bruce's ego or should I say Batman's ego. I think its dumb that there needs to be a Batman in every part of the world. We get it Batman is Morrison's favorite character but that doesn't mean that the entire world needs a damn Batman. "
Ofcourse it does.darkseid ring a bell.and if leviathan turns out to be libra then i'm gonna have huge blast.
either way these crimefighters were operating well before bruce,the outsiders was already around too.
it's a logical progression,INC is to show that crimefighters dont just exist in the US.it has nothing to do with ego.theres a huge threat and he's working to prevent it.
"@RedHoodJT said:"You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. I just don't think that the world is big enough to fit Bruce's ego or should I say Batman's ego. I think its dumb that there needs to be a Batman in every part of the world. We get it Batman is Morrison's favorite character but that doesn't mean that the entire world needs a damn Batman. "Ofcourse it does.darkseid ring a bell.and if leviathan turns out to be libra then i'm gonna have huge blast. either way these crimefighters were operating well before bruce,the outsiders was already around too. it's a logical progression,INC is to show that crimefighters dont just exist in the US.it has nothing to do with ego.theres a huge threat and he's working to prevent it. "
I think Inc is gonna blow up in Bruce's face somehow
" @entropy_aegis said:I think it has to. I think the return of the old status quo will come from the decimation of Inc. Being a world police usually goes badly."@RedHoodJT said:I think Inc is gonna blow up in Bruce's face somehow ""You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. I just don't think that the world is big enough to fit Bruce's ego or should I say Batman's ego. I think its dumb that there needs to be a Batman in every part of the world. We get it Batman is Morrison's favorite character but that doesn't mean that the entire world needs a damn Batman. "Ofcourse it does.darkseid ring a bell.and if leviathan turns out to be libra then i'm gonna have huge blast. either way these crimefighters were operating well before bruce,the outsiders was already around too. it's a logical progression,INC is to show that crimefighters dont just exist in the US.it has nothing to do with ego.theres a huge threat and he's working to prevent it. "
" @daredevil21134 said:" @entropy_aegis said:I think it has to. I think the return of the old status quo will come from the decimation of Inc. Being a world police usually goes badly. ""@RedHoodJT said:I think Inc is gonna blow up in Bruce's face somehow ""You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. I just don't think that the world is big enough to fit Bruce's ego or should I say Batman's ego. I think its dumb that there needs to be a Batman in every part of the world. We get it Batman is Morrison's favorite character but that doesn't mean that the entire world needs a damn Batman. "Ofcourse it does.darkseid ring a bell.and if leviathan turns out to be libra then i'm gonna have huge blast. either way these crimefighters were operating well before bruce,the outsiders was already around too. it's a logical progression,INC is to show that crimefighters dont just exist in the US.it has nothing to do with ego.theres a huge threat and he's working to prevent it. "
I agree
@RedHoodsDen: The old way that it was for Batman will come back. I think that Morrison's story is taking Bruce's idea of making a world full of Batmen and showing that crime fighters exist yes but ultimately it will be the downfall of each and every one of them. And Bruce will go back to being strictly in Gotham and wish he didn't bring any of them into this fight for justice seeing as he got most of them killed.
" @entropy_aegis: I see what you're saying but if you know who Knight and Squire are then you know that heroes exist outside of the US. You don't need Batman to go to France or Istanbul or wherever he's gone and find that person and have him become a Batman for that place of existence. If it was really about making it look like other heroes exist outside of the US why not just create their own book for them and write them that way? "
And who were knight and squire inspired by?
what was the name of the team they joined initially?
and most importantly which writer brought them back again?
answers
batman and robin.
batmen of all nations.
grant morrison.
he did'nt ask anyone to become batman,that jiro guy did it out of his own free will,bilal did'nt and i doubt gaucho will either.
and seriously you expect DC to give these guys a book when jason does'nt have one?LMAO.
Point is that bruce is bringing already established guys in to this war,not untrained kids like good ol jason.
gaucho was actually a secret agent and he knows about the league of assasins.
and whether INC failes or not is kinda irrelevant to discuss at this point,bruce is trying to prevent a world wide threat,someone dying is not a failure.wars have casualties.if he succeeds then its not a failure even if everyone dies.
Wow really? Knight and Squire were inspired by Batman and Robin I did not know that. I mean they only look exactly like them. And Grant Morrison brought them back? Holy crap I didn't know that. Thanks for clarifying all that for me there Sherlock. I knew all that already. I don't really care what Morrison does. In my opinion he's a hack.
No I don't expect DC to give these no name characters from Morrison a book. Already established guys? Really because up until now I've never even heard of these guys. Never even mentioned them. Morrison has some good books but not all of them are good. Inc is one of them. I don't like it. It didn't catch and reel me in like say All Star Superman or the first few issues of BnR. And to be honest Jason is gonna get his own book. Too many people want it to happen for DC to not do it. It would be foolish to not give Jason his own book. But allow this mockery of Batman with Inc to proceed.
"Wow really? Knight and Squire were inspired by Batman and Robin I did not know that. I mean they only look exactly like them. And Grant Morrison brought them back? Holy crap I didn't know that. Thanks for clarifying all that for me there Sherlock. I knew all that already. I don't really care what Morrison does. In my opinion he's a hack.
No I don't expect DC to give these no name characters from Morrison a book. Already established guys? Really because up until now I've never even heard of these guys. Never even mentioned them. Morrison has some good books but not all of them are good. Inc is one of them. I don't like it. It didn't catch and reel me in like say All Star Superman or the first few issues of BnR. And to be honest Jason is gonna get his own book. Too many people want it to happen for DC to not do it. It would be foolish to not give Jason his own book. But allow this mockery of Batman with Inc to proceed. "
Um what are you trying to say?you claimed we already had knight and squire hence there was no need for INC,i defended that perfectly and now you're arguing in circles.
These guys were already established,nobody heard of hush or Ra's or ghul or deathstroke before they were created but their backstory already established them as having been in existence for a while.
and how is INC a mockery?cause jason was'nt invited?LOL.
" @entropy_aegis: My dislike for Inc has nothing to do with Jason. I think that Bruce should have died and came back as the Spectre. The spirit of Vengeance not Redemption like Hal. I mean think about it. Bruce would make a damn good Spectre. Enough of this I'm gonna travel here and I'm gonna travel there to train people to fight the good fight. If they were already there before Bruce showed up and they were doing fine before he got there then why the hell does he need to be there. Its redundant in my opinion. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Inc is messing with what isn't broken and trying to fix it. That is why I don't like Inc. I've realized that Jason doesn't need to be a part of this travesty. And I'm glad he's not. "
Bruce becoming spectre is the true case of fixing what's not broken.
he's asking those guys to join him to face a threat for pure story telling purposes.
whats redundant is actually having guys like batman,nightwing,jason in a world where doctor fate could end all misery by clicking his fingers.
you're free to dislike INC but it's better by far than those same old mediocre crime stories,and we fans constantly complain about never lasting deaths,repetetiveness etc,but when guys like morrison come and try to change all that we still complain.
even now many people are pleased that rogers will replace barnes,and then they wonder why marvel does'nt keep it's characters dead.
"@RedHoodJT said:" @entropy_aegis: My dislike for Inc has nothing to do with Jason. I think that Bruce should have died and came back as the Spectre. The spirit of Vengeance not Redemption like Hal. I mean think about it. Bruce would make a damn good Spectre. Enough of this I'm gonna travel here and I'm gonna travel there to train people to fight the good fight. If they were already there before Bruce showed up and they were doing fine before he got there then why the hell does he need to be there. Its redundant in my opinion. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Inc is messing with what isn't broken and trying to fix it. That is why I don't like Inc. I've realized that Jason doesn't need to be a part of this travesty. And I'm glad he's not. "Bruce becoming spectre is the true case of fixing what's not broken. he's asking those guys to join him to face a threat for pure story telling purposes. whats redundant is actually having guys like batman,nightwing,jason in a world where doctor fate could end all misery by clicking his fingers. you're free to dislike INC but it's better by far than those same old mediocre crime stories,and we fans constantly complain about never lasting deaths,repetetiveness etc,but when guys like morrison come and try to change all that we still complain. even now many people are pleased that rogers will replace barnes,and then they wonder why marvel does'nt keep it's characters dead. "
I know i'm pleased
And I get what you're saying and you're right about the characters being brought in for story telling purposes but I still don't like the concept of the book. I thought about picking up the parts I'm missing and read them just to see if maybe I can like it but I'm on the fence about doing that.
" honestly who cares. Jason Todd is just a cliche. We can only hope he eventually disappears entirely. "Why would you say that. He's one of the best things to happen to the Batman's over done story lines in a long time. If you dont agree with that you have to agree that he's gone through more character and story growth than any batman character in a long time.
" @norusdog said:" honestly who cares. Jason Todd is just a cliche. We can only hope he eventually disappears entirely. "Why would you say that. He's one of the best things to happen to the Batman's over done story lines in a long time. If you dont agree with that you have to agree that he's gone through more character and story growth than any batman character in a long time. "
Negative character growth which his fans will prolly not even acknowledge,and i dont agree either.Dick,Tim and Damian have gone through similar growth and in their cases it's been positive.
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