@thedailybagel: Sorry I haven't actually seen the comic, I should have said that. Just basing it on what I've read and the few frames people uploaded :)

Every once in a while I see this fight revisited. Hulk fans claim Zeus cheated. Non-Hulk fans say he did not. Hulk's main claim is that Zeus, a being from a radically different culture and mindset implicitly knew the full meaning behind the ambiguously worded terms of the vague agreement. The only verbally agreed upon terms were Zeus would not vaporize Hulk from a distance. Instead he would use his fists. The claim that Zeus cheated originates from Zeus channling his divine power through his fists. Non Hulk fans generally respond that nothing was said about Zeus channeling power through his fists and Hulk was free to do the same.

At worst, how is what Zeus did any different from any number of stories about people making deals/wishes with devils, genies, or fairies. Sometimes the entity is intentionally malicious. Other times they are only literal-minded or do not fully understand what the wisher wants because of poor wording or different cultures. So they get the letter of the agreement, but do not fully get the spirit...or at least the spirit the wisher intended. Things are added or subtracted as the entity sees fit as long as they fulfill the letter of the agreement.

Wish: Be the best player on a sports team? Intent: Get skills and abilities beyond anyone else. Result: Everyone else becomes worse. You are the best with the skill level you were born with.

Wish: For sunken treasure. Intent: For it to be teleported to a place you can safely access it. Result: Get teleported underwater to it. You never stated where you wanted to treasure to be.

Wish: For super-cosmic powers. Intent: To have super-cosmic powers forever. Result: Have super-cosmic powers for five minutes. You never stated you wanted super-cosmic power forever.

Wish: To live forever with no pain. Intent: Stay eternally young and in perfect health in your current physical form. Result: Get turned into ink and used to write something. Words are "forever."

Wish: For Zeus not to vaporize you from a distance, but fight you hand to hand. Intent: At best, have Zeus fight you relying only on physical strength. Result: Zeus does use his hands...hands channeling his divine powers. You never stated other powers could not be used as long as they were channeled through your fists.

So, in light of all of this how did Zeus cheat? Why would you expect an Greco-Roman immortal god-king with nearly unlimited powers who does not value the warrior ethos to automatically understand whatever it is the Hulk may or may not have intended. As far as I can tell at worst Zeus fulfilled the letter of the agreement.

Zeus and Odin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hulk.

@seekquaze: And then comes the writer later and puts an end to the debate by telling us that Zeus did in fact cheat.

He sure did

Man, I wish this thread was consigned to history, the Hulk v Zeus fight is years in the back catalogue now, we need to move on!

Lol, people still buthurt about this?

it appears so lol.

People not letting this thread die yet only add fuel to the fire look surprised at the "butthurt" around it. Color me surprised.

Thor=Hulk=Surfer

Odin=Zeus=Galactus

Galactus vs silver surfer who would win?

Odin vs Thor who would win?

Now Zeus vs hulk

Zeus could amp himself 1000x stronger than the world breaker get over it people

I didn't bump this thread.

@the_kidd: Did i say you bumped this thread? Not letting a thread die and bumping it are entirely 2 different things i am not sure how you can confuse the two. And i was not talking about you specifically either way.

Except Pak has avoided saying that. The first time was where he said it was questionable if Zeus cheated and something about Zeus throwing a lighting bolt in the end when Zeus did not throw a lighting bolt. The second time he responds he says opinion does not matter and it is up to the readers to decide. The only part he does state is he thinks Zeus did draw upon his godly might to some extent...which still doesn't mean Zeus cheated for the reasons I stated above.

I think Pak knows how serious some fans take this so he has avoided giving a straight answer.

Writers are going to say whatever the said fan tweets them pressuring them to say something

saying Zeus cannot use his godly might would be like saying Hulk cannot get angry or use gamma.

Like saying Thor cannot use his hammer or Odin cannot use his wisdom.

How is fighting Zeus even fair if you tie his hands , blind fold him and change him to the point you no longer call him Zeus.

Except we have our own eyes and we can see that Zeus used magic throughout the entire fight, even after the fight in a later issue because of that same magic it was stated that Hulks healing factor is only up to 8% of what it should be. You can keep denying it all you want, it's obvious what happened. I mean even before the fight itself happened Hulk got hit by a lightning bolt by Zeus.

Except as I pointed out above there was nothing in the agreement about that as long as Zeus channeled the power through his fists which he did. The only parts of the agreement officially stated was Zeus would not vaporize Hulk from a distance and instead give him an up close fight using his fists. Zeus just interpreted it as having the right to channel his godly powers through his fists. Like I stated, there is a long tradition in fantasy literature of mystical entities interpreting agreements differently than the "wisher" (in this case the Hulk) and such agreements whether due to malicious intent or different mindset due to species, cultural background, etc.

"Cheating" only occurs when one breaks the letter of the rules. Zeus did not break the letter of the rules. The spirit usually does not matter much in vague agreements like this because each individual might have different interpretations of what the spirit is due to mindset, cultural background, etc. The letter of the agreement is the only part that matters. Unless you can prove Zeus channeling his godly powers through his fists violated the stated terms of the agreement or that this agreement was somehow different from the other examples I listed I don't see what else there is to discuss or what point there is to the claim that Zeus "cheated."

Did Zeus interpret the agreement in a way different then what the Hulk may have interpreted? Yes, that is possible given his radically different background. At worse, did Zeus act like a major butthole in how in interpreted the agreement assuming he did know what Hulk may have meant? Yes, that is possible. But did Zeus "cheat" by breaking the letter of the agreement? No, he did not unless you can somehow prove otherwise and prove how it is different from similar type agreements found in numerous fantasy stories where a mystical entity is magically bound to follow the letter of the agreement, but is free to interpret the agreement often by adding or subtracting things to it.

@seekquaze: No Greg Pak himself said it was suppose to be mano-a-mano and Zeus himself said you will die by my hand as in implying he would beat him with his fists alone which he didn't do. There is more then enough probable cause to suggest Zeus cheated.

But let me make myself clear, Zeus had no obligation to listen to any request from Hulk as his wife said he could vaporize Hulk with a thought but never the less he agreed to a brawl and cheated out of it.

@atheistknowledge:

I don't consider interviews much because of the writers tendency to say whatever the fan asking the question wants them to say which is how Pak comes across in those interviews. And again there are different ways to interpret the agreement since Zeus technically used his hands. Zeus never said he would use his fists alone. He said he would use his fists which he did. He used his fists augmented by magic.

Please address the point I have made about the tendency in fantasy for magical beings to keep the letter of the agreement while interpreting the spirit to be different then what the requester intended. That is the crux of the argument as to whether Zeus cheated or not.

@seekquaze: And i don't consider this kind of defenses much either, considering it's just excuses to disagree with the writer. Who regardless of the motives has the final say in it.

Zeus used lightning when he should have only used fists, there is nothing else to address, he cheated.

Except Pak himself has stated only on a previous page of this very discussion that his opinion does not matter. So he has gone on record saying he does not have the final say in it.

And given how similar this issue is compared to the other instances I have mentioned where other writers have used the ambiguity of terms for things to be added or subtracted in agreements along with the fact in the real world the difficulty of ambiguity is often the reason agreements and contracts are written out, tend to be rather long, and often need a third party to decide on what the wording means there is more to say on the matter. In light of all this, refusing to even address it is pretty much admitting that you have no good counter argument for it and are only sticking with the idea "Zeus cheated" because it paints the Hulk in a better light with nothing to really substantiate it except for repeating it over and over again.

I do not think Zeus cheated, but I am willing to entertain the possibility I am wrong and that Zeus did cheat if someone can provide a reasonable counter to the problem I have with the claim that "Zeus cheated." Namely, the ambiguity of the agreement combined with the long tradition of the letter of the agreement being the only thing that matters and the tendency in fantasy/science fiction literature for magical beings to have a wide latitude in interpreting wishes/agreements and often adding or subtracting clauses beyond what the wish maker intended. In these stories and to many readers of such stories these interpretations are perfectly "legal" because the stick to the letter of the agreement and each side may have a different idea of what the spirit is. Sometimes it is a malicious intent on the other party's part. Often though it is merely different mindset due to culture or species. Zeus is a being who by all rights would have a different mindset.

It comes down to spirit of an agreement vs letter of rules/agreement. In fiction, it is common for entities to keep the letter of an agreement, but interpret the spirit differently for one reason or another especially when the agreement is rather vague and fails to take into account certain things like the fact Zeus has magic. Hulk may have interpreted the spirit to be fighting up close and no magic. Zeus sounds like he interpreted it to be fighting up close with magic channeled through his fists. After all, Hulk would be free to channel any power he had through his fists. The only thing Hulk specifically requested was for Zeus to fight him up close and not to vaporize Hulk from a distance. Zeus channeling his godly powers through his fists was never mentioned and may never have occurred to Zeus considering how used he is to fighting with his powers. Since it was never mentioned, why should Hulk's interpretation of the spirit of the agreement automatically be superior over Zeus's interpretation of the agreement?

Hulk got his ass beat only because that's what he wanted

People are actually angry that Hulk got beat by a Skyfather? O_o

@seekquaze: No he has gone to say that people can interpret it however they can. His opinion still weighs more then your or mine.

Pak states four times that his opinion does not matter and it is up to the reader. This means his opinion holds no more weight than a reader's opinion. You demand I accept what a source says as holy truth while claiming what the same source says does not matter when it disagrees with you. That does not work. You give no reason why his opinion holds more weight when four times he has stated it does not nor when he was ambiguous in the interview itself which you use to claim him saying that "Zeus cheated."

By this point you have made it clear you are going to ignore any thing that disagrees with your opinion and have offered no evidence to back up why my criticisms or comparisons are wrong other than it disagrees with your view point. You demand I accept Pak's word as gospel while ignoring it when it suits you. Your only claim that "Zeus cheated" relies on one interpretation of the spirit of a poorly worded agreement and at the same time ignoring all of the criticisms I have made of that. Since you refuse to address any of this and have offered the only evidence being "Zeus cheated because doing so makes the Hulk look better" I do not see the point of any further debate.

@seekquaze: He wrote the damn thing, so it weighs more he just wants users to form their own opinion on it. And my opinion based on empiric evidence is that Zeus cheated, that's that.

WELL LETS BE HONEST.. HE FAUGHT GODS TITANS ON HIS WAY TO THE MOUNT. KNOCKED ZEUS ON HIS ASS. THEN WILLINGLY TRIED SACRIFICING WHAT WOULD OF BEEN HIS LIFE BUT ZEUS COULDNT DO IT.OR WOULDNT DO IT.... YEAH HULK IS MORE POWERFUL AS STATED BY PRE RETCON BEYONDER

Didn't Hera say "An oath to a monster means nothing" why would she say that if he did honor his oath ? As far as understanding the oath, yes the gods did understand the oath anyways you want to twist it, they knew their oath was not respected. So as far as cheating, yes he did.

I didn't expect Hulk to win but I think Zeus looked really bad for a sky father. He got knocked down on his butt and used magic to beat Hulk. Here is an example. I fight a 8 year old kid knowing I could overpower him in a wresling match but the kid knocks me down, I get up throw sand in his eyes and hit the kid in the nuts with a golf club and parade around saying I'm all powerful. Yes I won the fight but everybody looks at me like, "Why do we respect this guy again?" That is basically the whole fight. I don't think Zeus looked good at all in that comic in fact I think it is really pathetic. I don't think they honored Zeus at all in those showings, they made him look like a weak god considering he is king of the gods. Cheated his way out and got knocked down by an earthling. Zeus didn't look like an all powerful honorable god standing proud and handing it to Hulk, he looked more like a cheap knockoff or a fraud of what an all powerful God should be. Anyways in my mind if someone claims to be a god and claims to be stronger than me in strength and starts throwing sand in my eyes, I feel more cheated than beaten. If some people consider that winning than to each his own, but to me, that is really like Mr. Satan in Dragon Ball cheating his way out to be the strongest in the world. Hulk should have been knocked the hell out with one punch, no magic and of course Zeus should not have fell down in shame by a Hulk punch. I mean it's Zeus for pete's sake, he gets knocked down plus doesn't honor his oath and uses magic. That is really shameful for a sky father. In fact the whole thing lowballs Zeus or overpowers Hulk a whole lot. I'm not even going to mention that Hulk went in asking to be killed... This whole thing actually showed that Zeus was weaker than I thought back then.

What kind of a god needs to use other means that were agreed upon to win.

Let's say me and any of you agree to play chess. Half way between the game I decide to throw my coffee in your face, flip de table kick you off your chair, drag you to the window and throw you off. Yes I beat you, but did I win at chess or at what we agreed upon... I don't think a God should have to use outside help to win unless he is a puny weak god with no honor or respect for his own words. Like I said it made Zeus feel very weak in my mind. I think Zeus should have beaten Hulk easily without resorting to cheating. Makes the sky father level mediocre or makes Hulk overpowered.

Zeus is a Skyfather and should usually be above Hulk, but it seemed pretty apparent Hulk wasn't trying to hard to win.

This was Hulk looking for mercy he didn't want to fight Zeus he just figured if he sacrificed himself he'd have a chance at saving his family if he really wanted to fight and if he was angry enough he could have possibly matched Zeus like Thanos Matched Odin i am not Hulk could beat Zeus at this time but get to a level of Rage and we might have something personally the one Hulk i think could beat Zeus is Maestro

I am a huge hulk fan but even i know he is not skyfather lvl he can go toe to toe aganist thor(base one he cant do shit to warrior madness or odin force thor) and hercules only problem is that he got beated so hard.I don't think he sacrificed himself i think they said it for the fans to not make them angry just like black bolt being a skrull (thats just bs how the hell did they not know he was a skrull) but i have to accept it was hell of a beating

Why are these chumps keep posting on threads that have been inactive forever?

Hulk intentionally lost to Zeus. Zeus amped his mystical and physical might to their uppermost levels, while also greatly decreasing Hulk's for a period of time in order to triumph. It was all about sacrifice. Everything considered, Hulk did just as well (or better than) Thanos did against Odin. He fought against the forces of Olympus before going up against Zeus, intentionally took a severe beating that would kill even the most powerful of heroes/villains in the MU, and willing desired to sacrifice himself in hopes that his family would get what was owed to them.

That's all 100% fact.

And, unlike the previous poster ridiculous statment, Hulk has taken on Warrior Madness Thor and had no trouble dealing with him & in early scripts of WWH OF Thor & Hulk were evenly matched in power. Further comments/statments from Pak further prove that if OF Thor went against Hulk during WWH he would not have fared any better than the fully unleashed Sentry.

And unlike what some say, it was the real Black Bolt that faced Hulk on the moon (and destroyed & torn a Rhode Island chunk off the moon with a single whispered word), for there was plenty of time for a Skrull to take his place after WWH ended. Pak even intended it to be the real BB, not an imposter. Is there any evidence that Hulk didn't fight the real BB on the moon during WWH?

In other words, Pak's writing and facts/intentions outweigh those who wish to demean Hulk's feats or showings during these events.

@greenscar1990: hulk didnt fight the real blackbolt. Yes, pak intended for it to be the real one but it wasn't. The skrulls even referenced that they thought his cover was blown after hulk spanked him, but to the contrary it made medusa love him even more because of how he stood up to hulk.

You can see it from here it is in secret invasion #3 Inhumans just after silent wars

And sorry about that warrior madness thing i forgot that he just fought like a mindless beast without thinking about using magic and that sacrifice thing i dont know even if it was like that wouldn't change a thing he would still get owned pretty hard we are talking about a skyfather here

But that wasn't a purely fist fight Zeus used magic to strength his fists and cancel Hulk's healing power

That wasn't real Black Bolt. Also Hulk can have all the strength in the world yet he will never beat Zeus without PIS/CIS/WIS. Hulk is just a weakling compare to Skyfathers.

True, but that doesn't mean the Skrull Bolt wasn't as powerful as the real BB in every aspect. The single whispered word tore a chunk off the moon the size of Rhode Island! That's on par with the real deal, yet most ignore/disregard this fact.

Doesn't matter if it was the real BB or not. Same physical powerset and sonic scream power given it took a chunk off the moon the size of a state with a single whispered word. Doesn't take anything away. It's something the real BB can do and Hulk withstood it, so it doesn't matter if it would have been the reall BB or not. Either way, BB was gonna get f'ing mauled to a bloody smear.

If the writer wishes him to beat Zeus, he'll beat Zeus. As long as it would be done in a well, written respectful manner I would accept it. However, It'd take a massive power boost, a powerful weapon, or actually only utilizing fists & strength without other means for Hulk to triumph. The fight between Thordis/Jane and Odin, on the other hand, was anything but well-written or respectful.

But, yeah, everyone who isn't a powerful cosmic being or abstract is below those of high-end Skyfathers like Zeus and Odin. What's your freaking point? These guys could quite literally one-shot Thanos if they so desired. That's nothing I, nor anyone else didn't already know.

@greenscar1990 said:

I'm not gonna say Hulk deserved it since he wasn't trying to pick a fight anyways but it's literally suicide to pick a fight with a Skyfather. They aren't just physical opponents.

I will repost what I said about the fight since someone decided to necro a very old post...

Anybody who says Zeus looked good or powerful in that comic must be crazy...It was a very weak or lowballed Zeus or Hulk was way over powered.

Didn't Hera say "An oath to a monster means nothing" why would she say that if Zeus did honor his oath ? As far as understanding the oath, yes the gods did understand the oath anyways you want to twist it, they knew their oath was not respected. So as far as cheating, yes Zeus did to get out of this for some reason.

I didn't expect Hulk to win but I think Zeus looked really bad for a sky father. He got knocked down on his butt and used magic to beat Hulk. Here is an example. I fight a 8 year old kid knowing I could overpower him in a wresling match but the kid knocks me down, I get up throw sand in his eyes and hit the kid in the nuts with a golf club and parade around saying I'm all powerful. Yes I won the fight but everybody looks at me like, "Why do we respect this guy again?" That is basically the whole fight. I don't think Zeus looked good at all in that comic in fact I think it is really pathetic. I don't think they honored Zeus at all in those showings, they made him look like a weak god considering he is king of the gods. Cheated his way out and got knocked down by an earthling. Zeus didn't look like an all powerful honorable god standing proud and handing it to Hulk, he looked more like a cheap knockoff or a fraud of what an all powerful God should be. Anyways in my mind if someone claims to be a god and claims to be stronger than me in strength and starts throwing sand in my eyes, (The sand being a methaphore for magic in a match where it should not have been used) I feel more cheated than beaten. If some people consider that winning than to each his own, but to me, that is really like Mr. Satan in Dragon Ball cheating his way out to be the strongest in the world. Hulk should have been knocked the hell out with one punch, no magic and of course Zeus should not have fell down in shame by a Hulk punch. I mean it's Zeus for pete's sake, he gets knocked down plus doesn't honor his oath and uses magic. That is really shameful for a sky father. In fact the whole thing lowballs Zeus or overpowers Hulk a whole lot. I'm not even going to mention that Hulk went in asking to be killed... This whole thing actually showed that Zeus was weaker than I thought back then.

What kind of a god needs to use other means that were not agreed upon to win.

Let's say me and any of you agree to play chess. Half way between the game I decide to throw my coffee in your face, flip de table kick you off your chair, drag you to the window and throw you off. Yes I beat you, but did I win at chess or at what we agreed upon... I don't think a God should have to use outside help to win if he clearly said he would not use it unless he is a puny weak god with no honor or respect for his own words. Like I said it made Zeus feel very weak in my mind. I think Zeus should have beaten Hulk easily without resorting to cheating. Makes the sky father level mediocre or makes Hulk overpowered.

My view on sky level would have been Zeus knocking the **** out of Hulk with a slap. But the sky level in that comic is weak, like I said, Zeus gets knocked down and falls back to cheating... that's garbage lowball sky level or Hulk was a bit over powered.

If you push a skyfather level god to cheat, it means you are way overpowered or that the God has been lowballed. Whichever floats your boat.

It is a great strength feat for Hulk though...

I bloody loved it! I hate hulk

Hmm.