Honestly Im tired of the Character, she doesnt work with the Joker's current Phase

This argument doesn't apply to just Harley though.
Mockingbird, Jessica Jones, and many other comic girls tend to be viewed as _______________'s girlfriend.  It's good to have the girls breakaway and define who they are and that they are not just relationship fodder.
On the subject of Harley, I think she's defined enough to not be that worried about her.

It'd be nice to see them do a serious story line concerning harley quinn and joker. like, joker wants her back but she says no and he's all like baby i'm sorry i hit you i'm a changed man and she's all like i've had enough of you i'm my own woman now. you know. something like that.

Yes its true, she is more developed and interesting on her own.  It makes her less criminally insane which hints that there is good and heroic deeds in Harley. When  she goes back to him then thats when she is on the dark side or more villainous  mostly with joker. Last I want to say is I rather watch her with ivy instead of cat woman being included so only those two I love the most and works best for me. I want to see just Harley and ivy for a series with the men that abused them then went  into villains.  This means the main antagonists  should be the  joker and the flora man 

I really loved her solo book!
What solo book?? Was I the only one to read it??
 
 
Anyway as much as I love those two together and their inperfect disfunctional relatioship, they both grew up nicely in separate ways..maybe it would be for the best if they stayed this way now, seeing as how much they've come to.

" @lordmagnusen said:

" Harley is barely a one-note character; who serves only to be a Joker sidekick. Currently, she's Catwoman's comedy foil. "

This. End of discussion. "

" Would love to see her date Lobo or Ambush Bug or Maybe Booster Gold. Maybe should have her version of the bacherlorette. "

Lol that would be a double date from hell. Nevertheless, I am more inclined to see Harley back with her puddin.

" @Mr_Wayne69 said:

" @lordmagnusen said:

" Harley is barely a one-note character; who serves only to be a Joker sidekick. Currently, she's Catwoman's comedy foil. "

This. End of discussion. "

Thank you! I don't mean to shoot down the thousands of Harley fangirls and fanboys out there; I understand being attached to one-note, minor characters... heck, I'm a Quislet fan! But there's being a fan, and then there's believing a one not character has more substance than it actually has...
 
 

ComicDoms very own Chris Brown & Rhianna

Harley is much better without the Joker !

Hey who illustrated that first picture at the top? 

I would really like to see Harley get her own run and take the character on a more serious route where she can become a significant character that doesn't rely on other characters to do things.

" I would really like to see Harley get her own run and take the character on a more serious route where she can become a significant character that doesn't rely on other characters to do things. "

I love Harley. She's awesome even without Mr.J.

"  She's awesome even without Mr.J. "

Ok! Pardon the length of this, but since this is the opposite of most of the other comments let’s call it fair.

I believe this article reflects a poor but all-too-typical series of totally subjective misunderstandings about Joker, Harley, and their relationship. The same with so many of the replies. In fact, for everything people have cited as “evidence” that the relationship is nothing but abusive or that Joker doesn’t even like her or that Harley’s just a schmuck, there’s an example of comraderie, trust, mutual affection and attachment, Harley’s badassery, and then some. I’m always stunned at how people gloss over this stuff.

First off, there are a MILLION story and character possibilities with her being “just the Joker’s girl” and I’d so much rather see those better explored than all this trying to force her into some uninspired new mold that has nothing to do with who she was created as or what makes her work. I’d rather see her laughing and scheming with the Joker than, I dunno, going on yet another GCS shopping trip away from those girls who just don’t get her or trust her nearly as much as Joker does. Also Joker IS definitely more deadly and dangerous with Harley. I don’t get how that can even be denied; even Batman and Alfred have said that.

Second, Dini himself has said that Joker loves Harley. Once to a room of 3000 people. In fact, the reason Joker even shot her off in that rocket, as Dini wrote it, was because he was starting to care for her and it freaked him out! Any chick who can throw Joker for a loop is a helluva force in my book. Even in Batman 663 it’s explained Joker’s trying to kill her because he cared for her, and eventually he even concedes to bringing her into his “new way” instead.

I love the Joker, but (when written well) Harley freshens him to a huge degree. To see how someone like him deals with caring for someone, and the deliciously twisted and unconventional ways that manifests itself make for so much more unique and complex storytelling than we often get. I love Harley, but a Harley that can do without the Joker is no Harley to me and strips her of a ton of her power and charm.

If more people explored they’re relationship with real insight there’d be no need for all this confusion and fiddling with her. It’s all these shallow, one-dimensional portrayals and many fans' amazing obliviousness to half of what they're reading that creates this dissatisfaction with who Harley is and what her and Joker’s relationship is. IMHO...

And another thing... Consider Minion in Megamind if you saw and liked it! We wouldn't want or need Minion to be any more than what he is. We wouldn't whine about his need to move on and get out from under the thumb of Megamind, to become his own villain, etc. We LOVE his devotion, his surprising skills, and the amusing relationship that results between the characters. He is all he needs to be, and watching the characters together is a treat! Why would we wanna change that for some ill-conceived sense of what people assume passes for character development? Same as Harley with Joker, in my book.

I also feel Harley is a one trick pony.  I enjoyed her in BATMAS:TAS but never cared much for her "real" in continuity likeness.

@clownyface said:

" 

Ok! Pardon the length of this, but since this is the opposite of most of the other comments let’s call it fair.

I believe this article reflects a poor but all-too-typical series of totally subjective misunderstandings about Joker, Harley, and their relationship. The same with so many of the replies. In fact, for everything people have cited as “evidence” that the relationship is nothing but abusive or that Joker doesn’t even like her or that Harley’s just a schmuck, there’s an example of comraderie, trust, mutual affection and attachment, Harley’s badassery, and then some. I’m always stunned at how people gloss over this stuff.

First off, there are a MILLION story and character possibilities with her being “just the Joker’s girl” and I’d so much rather see those better explored than all this trying to force her into some uninspired new mold that has nothing to do with who she was created as or what makes her work. I’d rather see her laughing and scheming with the Joker than, I dunno, going on yet another GCS shopping trip away from those girls who just don’t get her or trust her nearly as much as Joker does. Also Joker IS definitely more deadly and dangerous with Harley. I don’t get how that can even be denied; even Batman and Alfred have said that.

Second, Dini himself has said that Joker loves Harley. Once to a room of 3000 people. In fact, the reason Joker even shot her off in that rocket, as Dini wrote it, was because he was starting to care for her and it freaked him out! Any chick who can throw Joker for a loop is a helluva force in my book. Even in Batman 663 it’s explained Joker’s trying to kill her because he cared for her, and eventually he even concedes to bringing her into his “new way” instead.

I love the Joker, but (when written well) Harley freshens him to a huge degree. To see how someone like him deals with caring for someone, and the deliciously twisted and unconventional ways that manifests itself make for so much more unique and complex storytelling than we often get. I love Harley, but a Harley that can do without the Joker is no Harley to me and strips her of a ton of her power and charm.

If more people explored they’re relationship with real insight there’d be no need for all this confusion and fiddling with her. It’s all these shallow, one-dimensional portrayals and many fans' amazing obliviousness to half of what they're reading that creates this dissatisfaction with who Harley is and what her and Joker’s relationship is. IMHO...

So in case you can’t tell, my vote is for them to reunite. But in a not sucky way. "

This article is flawed on many levels. Harley's had years and years of alone time,  and has not become any more independent than she ever was. And have any of you read GCS? In the comics thus far, Harley has tweeted, online shopped, online debated, sunbathed, walked the hyenas, eaten junk food, played video games and lounged around the hideout in her pajamas. Has she accomplished anything productive, liberating or empowering? no. By denying Harley a reunion with her beau for this much longer, she has become an air-headed couch potato bimbo with no real goals or motivation. She became a villain for the Joker's sake. He was and is her motivation. He gave her some excitement and laughter in an otherwise mundane existience she had been leading as Dr. Quinzel. He gave her something to strive for, to look forward to.  
 
Also, Harley is not the leader type. She likes being told what to do, and needs to be told what to do in order to truly be productive. It's who she is. She has a very child-like mentality, and while she is dangerous, cunning, smart and menacing on her own, she needs a sense of direction to become truly sinister, or useful, or productive. The Joker gave her that direction, and that was when some of her most violent and sinister moments became apparent. Poison Ivy and Catwoman realize this, and while they give Harley something to do, it might not be enough, if she is still a lazy couch lump pining for her puddin'.  
 
And the Joker did and still does care for Harley. In the comics that the pictures that this article links to are from to prove the relationship is loveless, there is evidence that they have intimacy, passion, and yes, even love. In the picture from Mad Love, in the next panel, Harley says "oh sweetie, I brought the whoopee cushion.." evidence that they have had, and still do have an active sex life, using the whoopee cushion as a sex toy. and also, "don't you wanna rev up your Harley??" She wouldn't be saying that if she didn't know the line would work, and it might have before...furthermore, in the "rocket scene" from batman: harley quinn that is referenced and taken completely out of context in GCS, the Joker openly tells Harley of his attraction and feelings for her. He is angry with her often because he hates the feeling of being attracted to someone else, having almost normal feelings for another. she humanizes him, he hates this, he acts violently and bitterly. except when he doesn't. he has, occasionally even without any manipulative motivation, kissed her, embraced her, caressed her, made love to her.  He has had more than enough chances to axe her off, to get rid of her, but somehow, even at his most abusive, he never does. He is a merciless killer psychopath. If he truly, deeply hated and wanted to kill her, he would have already done it by now. If she truly meant nothing to him, wouldn't she be gone from the picture? fun fact: Paul Dini, the creator of Harley Quinn and the former writer of GCS had created the character of Harley Quinn in order to in some way humanize the least human rogue, the Joker.   
 
and if you want to talk about character development and evolution, what about the evolution of the relationship? The Joker originally saw Harley has  only a mere object, a toy for his own amusement and pleasure, a means of escape, and an extra pair of hands around the hideout. But over time, Harley has grown, and developed, gained strength and courage to fight back, and show defiance and individuality, and take a firm position in the relationship. And the Joker, while still viewing Harley as an Object and toy for his own manipulative and often abusive purposes, has come to view her as a loved one, someone with whom he can share his brand of humor with, someone who can truly become a main part of his twisted world. She has always made him laugh, that's what attracted him to her, but now she is in on all his jokes, she is a bigger part of his life. As poison ivy says in GCS, and I'm paraphrasing, "the Joker may have originally thought of you as a willing patsy, but eventually he let you in. He shared secrets with you he wouldn't have with any other living soul." They have grown into a dementedly happy couple over time, with more intimacy, passion and, yes, even love apparent in the relationship in the cartoons and the mainstream comics as their story progresses. to break them up now would be cutting off a brilliant love story half way though an unfinished chapter that has yet to be completed. 

What do people do when they get bored ? Yes, that's right, they begin annoying their fellow human beings, destroying random things and start being all in all destructive, unproductive and a plague to those around them.

When it comes to ComicVine's „Off My Mind“, I'm used to read random and more or less hilarious notes and articles or some old ambigous 50s stuff somebody dug up and posted.

I'm NOT used to skip through things we've been over and over a thousand times!

Don't get me wrong – I love to argue with people having different opinions as much as I love winning arguments knowing from the very beginning I'll succeed for I got FACTS and they got THEORIES – but puuh-leeeease, are we back to THAT topic again ?!

Does Harley Quinn need the Joker ? Does she? DOES SHE ?

Hm, let's simply start with the fact that He.Created.Her. He made her, he was the start of Harleen Quinzel's roller-coaster driving to insanity, he – yes, I like to stick to Paul Dini's classic tale of Mad Love – HE came up with her name, „Harley Quinn“.

The Joker is the cause of her nutty crusade becoming one of Gotham's most dangerous dames, fighting side by side not only with him but also Poison Ivy – and she sure is a match to the Bat-Family.

Asking „Does Harley Quinn need the Joker“ has the aspect of asking „Does a kid need his parents or is it better off without them ?“ And the kid can sometimes be the Joker aswell as her.

Isn't it kinda obvious ? All throughout GCS she's done boringly everyday stuff, has had one fight or two – duh - and shown excitement and her usual craziness by simply HEARING the Joker's name, not stopping calling him nicknames or trivializing his various deeds, much to her friends' annoyance.

Coming up with the „does she need him“-question is for me a no compromise „YES, HELL YES !!!!“-answer. The couple has built up a relationship not only throughout the various comic storylines but also the animated universe, leaving no doubt she loves him and he at least LIKEs to keep her around. She makes him laugh, he's the Joker and that's what attracted him to her in the first place – that and the fact he could manipulate her so easily – she was fun, she was his toy, had become a pet and is now – though he'd never admit it – a criminal equal. And boy, does the Joker love to fight for dominance.

Let's name „Mad Love“, „Harley Quinn“, „Joker/Mask“ and „No Man's Land“ as just a handful of comics that proof they have an ongoing physical and psychological relationship reciprocating on BOTH sides on various occasions, add BTAS episodes „Harley & Ivy“, „Joker's Favor“ and „Beware the Creeper“ - again, picked examples – and I think the penny drops for the very last retarded „boo-hoo-she's-a-victim“ crybaby that calls himself a Harley-fan.

She loves working for him, he depends on her making his life so livable and easier than before that he – hah, we're talking JOKER here, kids – himself compromises with having actual feelings for her.

The constant tension – will he kill her in the end or not? - and the fact he hasn't done it yet – still, reminding you the Joker shoots random innocent citizens and poisons kids for a laugh – is another proof he never really wanted/wants to get rid of her.

It surely infuriates he has those feelings – shudder, they are so human - , but it's all in all better than waiving this helpful hand.

He is an ultra-egomaniacal hedonist after all, and what pleases him he likes to keep. Period.

For Harley it may have started out with love blinding her, telling herself she just wants to help him rehabilitating, over coping that his feelings for her may not be the exact same but are in certain ways properly responded too – I'd like to thank Elise for the simple but genius idea I hadn't though of before: What have those childhood/past-life lies he told her in Arkham to do with his emotions for her? - to simply being a devoted criminal and doing as her lover tells her.

She sure is a glutton for punishment – again, check the comics and YES, even the BTAS and TNAS – and she and the Joker have a complex D/s relationship with contentment on both sides.

Looking with anticipation forward to the new GCS coming out in February I merely hope the writers won't screw it up because of this very issue „Does Harley need the Joker“, or even „Does the Joker need Harley“!

She's his, his property, his creation, and she belongs to him. So get'em back together already :D !

" 

Ok! Pardon the length of this, but since this is the opposite of most of the other comments let’s call it fair.

I believe this article reflects a poor but all-too-typical series of totally subjective misunderstandings about Joker, Harley, and their relationship. The same with so many of the replies. In fact, for everything people have cited as “evidence” that the relationship is nothing but abusive or that Joker doesn’t even like her or that Harley’s just a schmuck, there’s an example of comraderie, trust, mutual affection and attachment, Harley’s badassery, and then some. I’m always stunned at how people gloss over this stuff.

First off, there are a MILLION story and character possibilities with her being “just the Joker’s girl” and I’d so much rather see those better explored than all this trying to force her into some uninspired new mold that has nothing to do with who she was created as or what makes her work. I’d rather see her laughing and scheming with the Joker than, I dunno, going on yet another GCS shopping trip away from those girls who just don’t get her or trust her nearly as much as Joker does. Also Joker IS definitely more deadly and dangerous with Harley. I don’t get how that can even be denied; even Batman and Alfred have said that.

Second, Dini himself has said that Joker loves Harley. Once to a room of 3000 people. In fact, the reason Joker even shot her off in that rocket, as Dini wrote it, was because he was starting to care for her and it freaked him out! Any chick who can throw Joker for a loop is a helluva force in my book. Even in Batman 663 it’s explained Joker’s trying to kill her because he cared for her, and eventually he even concedes to bringing her into his “new way” instead.

I love the Joker, but (when written well) Harley freshens him to a huge degree. To see how someone like him deals with caring for someone, and the deliciously twisted and unconventional ways that manifests itself make for so much more unique and complex storytelling than we often get. I love Harley, but a Harley that can do without the Joker is no Harley to me and strips her of a ton of her power and charm.

If more people explored they’re relationship with real insight there’d be no need for all this confusion and fiddling with her. It’s all these shallow, one-dimensional portrayals and many fans' amazing obliviousness to half of what they're reading that creates this dissatisfaction with who Harley is and what her and Joker’s relationship is. IMHO...

So in case you can’t tell, my vote is for them to reunite. But in a not sucky way. "

@KroenenLMH said:

 

Let's name „Mad Love“, „Harley Quinn“, „Joker/Mask“ and „No Man's Land“ as just a handful of comics that proof they have an ongoing physical and psychological relationship reciprocating on BOTH sides on various occasions, add BTAS episodes „Harley & Ivy“, „Joker's Favor“ and „Beware the Creeper“ - again, picked examples – and I think the penny drops for the very last retarded „boo-hoo-she's-a-victim“ crybaby that calls himself a Harley-fan. 
 
Wait, so we are not real Harley Quinn fans because we don't see Mad Love as the Bible? Wow.

The constant tension – will he kill her in the end or not? - and the fact he hasn't done it yet – still, reminding you the Joker shoots random innocent citizens and poisons kids for a laugh – is another proof he never really wanted/wants to get rid of her. 
 
There is tension because it would be out of character to be upfront with his feelings which you claim he has. This is the Joker, not some reality TV contestant.

It surely infuriates he has those feelings – shudder, they are so human -

 
So were Charlie Manson, Adolf Hitler and Ilse Koch. Are we going to ignore that because of some silly romance? Why should they change Joker just to please a few people? That's like Prince needs to 'improve' by collaborating with Katy Perry or Justin Bieber.

I'd like to thank Elise for the simple but genius idea I hadn't though of before: What have those childhood/past-life lies he told her in Arkham to do with his emotions for her?  
 

This Elise is not a dictator for the characters. She is a fan. A fan with leanings and that's it. She is not an authoritative source. Got that? 
 
She sure is a glutton for punishment – again, check the comics and YES, even the BTAS and TNAS – and she and the Joker have a complex D/s relationship with contentment on both sides.

 

How is it complex when we keep seeing the same things over and over? What about the fact that Harley questions her choices and morals? I guess it doesn't count because that is to real and in no way conforms to your views of their so called relationship. It's not D/s it's flat out abuse. Call a spade a spade.  

She's his, his property, his creation, and she belongs to him. So get'em back together already :D !

" 
Wow, women objectifying women. I thought I saw it all!

 
  
@HarleyQuinnthusiast said:

"This article is flawed on many levels. Harley's had years and years of alone time,  and has not become any more independent than she ever was. And have any of you read GCS? In the comics thus far, Harley has tweeted, online shopped, online debated, sunbathed, walked the hyenas, eaten junk food, played video games and lounged around the hideout in her pajamas. Has she accomplished anything productive, liberating or empowering? no. By denying Harley a reunion with her beau for this much longer, she has become an air-headed couch potato bimbo with no real goals or motivation. She became a villain for the Joker's sake. He was and is her motivation. He gave her some excitement and laughter in an otherwise mundane existience she had been leading as Dr. Quinzel. He gave her something to strive for, to look forward to.   Also, Harley is not the leader type. She likes being told what to do, and needs to be told what to do in order to truly be productive. It's who she is. She has a very child-like mentality, and while she is dangerous, cunning, smart and menacing on her own, she needs a sense of direction to become truly sinister, or useful, or productive. The Joker gave her that direction, and that was when some of her most violent and sinister moments became apparent. Poison Ivy and Catwoman realize this, and while they give Harley something to do, it might not be enough, if she is still a lazy couch lump pining for her puddin'.   And the Joker did and still does care for Harley. In the comics that the pictures that this article links to are from to prove the relationship is loveless, there is evidence that they have intimacy, passion, and yes, even love. In the picture from Mad Love, in the next panel, Harley says "oh sweetie, I brought the whoopee cushion.." evidence that they have had, and still do have an active sex life, using the whoopee cushion as a sex toy. and also, "don't you wanna rev up your Harley??" She wouldn't be saying that if she didn't know the line would work, and it might have before...furthermore, in the "rocket scene" from batman: harley quinn that is referenced and taken completely out of context in GCS, the Joker openly tells Harley of his attraction and feelings for her. He is angry with her often because he hates the feeling of being attracted to someone else, having almost normal feelings for another. she humanizes him, he hates this, he acts violently and bitterly. except when he doesn't. he has, occasionally even without any manipulative motivation, kissed her, embraced her, caressed her, made love to her.  He has had more than enough chances to axe her off, to get rid of her, but somehow, even at his most abusive, he never does. He is a merciless killer psychopath. If he truly, deeply hated and wanted to kill her, he would have already done it by now. If she truly meant nothing to him, wouldn't she be gone from the picture? fun fact: Paul Dini, the creator of Harley Quinn and the former writer of GCS had created the character of Harley Quinn in order to in some way humanize the least human rogue, the Joker.    and if you want to talk about character development and evolution, what about the evolution of the relationship? The Joker originally saw Harley has  only a mere object, a toy for his own amusement and pleasure, a means of escape, and an extra pair of hands around the hideout. But over time, Harley has grown, and developed, gained strength and courage to fight back, and show defiance and individuality, and take a firm position in the relationship. And the Joker, while still viewing Harley as an Object and toy for his own manipulative and often abusive purposes, has come to view her as a loved one, someone with whom he can share his brand of humor with, someone who can truly become a main part of his twisted world. She has always made him laugh, that's what attracted him to her, but now she is in on all his jokes, she is a bigger part of his life. As poison ivy says in GCS, and I'm paraphrasing, "the Joker may have originally thought of you as a willing patsy, but eventually he let you in. He shared secrets with you he wouldn't have with any other living soul." They have grown into a dementedly happy couple over time, with more intimacy, passion and, yes, even love apparent in the relationship in the cartoons and the mainstream comics as their story progresses. to break them up now would be cutting off a brilliant love story half way though an unfinished chapter that has yet to be completed.  "

Okay, I will say it. If HarleyQuinnenthusiast or clownyface is either clownyprincess or princessbee  or one of her little minions you need to stop. You don't own the characters. You are just a fan who uses Joker and Harley's relationship as a prop for your own issues. Just because you are unhappy with your personal life or the way the comics don't comform to your preferences doesn't mean you use them as avatars for yourself. The Joker is not Fabio or Valentino and you are not Harley Quinn, okay darling? Your condoning of abusive relationships is reprehensible and your twisting of facts is despicable. You wanna share an opinion, fine but don't think we can't see past your agenda. I have been in an abusive relationship and it's not a damn picnic. To say so otherwise is just plain demeaning.
 

 

They play off eachother. Joker works well without Harley. And recently we can see that Harley can function fine without the Joker. But I think they're at their best when they're together.

As much as I love Harley she kinda of bores me when she doesn't have someoen to play off of. I love her with Ivy and Joker but on her own she is kinda of boring. There were issuse in her seires that were just so flat and kinda lame and really weren't worth reading.

I dunno maybe it was just that seires but yeah sometimes she is kinda flat.

And what I never understood is why Ivy acts all high and mighty. Yeah, Ivy doesn't beat Harls but Ivy isn't exactly completly sweet to her either.

if shes not with joker she must be with ivy, either pair works good

I think her dependency on him is sad & pathetic, like an annoying cheerleader chasing after a gay quarterback or a woman who strove for years to get ahead in her career giving it all up after marriage to be a housewife & mother.
So in 21 Joker welcomes her with open arms & she melts like butter, but the description of issue 23 still gives me hope, as it indicates that Harley might have just walked into a trap.

The only person I can think of that needs more of a dramatic change than Harley Quinn is the Mad Hatter.

The Joker is 100%  sociopath with all the symptoms, including incapacity for love. The most he will feel towards Harley is like she is a dog he has had since he was a boy. That's a kind of love, an unromantic sort based on simply having been around someone tolerable for a long period of time.

Mad Love & the the Harley Quinn series are supposed to be part of the Timmverse/DCAU canon, like Batman Adventures, Batman & Robin Adventures, & Gotham Adventures. Harley may be the same in both continuities, but the Joker is not.

Clownyface, I’m sorry but from the way you’re presenting your case, the same can be said for you.   Your opinion  sounds like the typical JxH shipper’s view that gives no real credible evidence to prove your case but instead apologizes for the appearance of the relationship between Joker and Harley and tries to eloquently paint the relationship in a way that seems deeper than the relationship really is.

The relationship has already been explored for at least more than a decade starting from Harley’s first debut in 1992 to the point where Joker and Harley separated. Writers have been constantly presenting their own version from alternative realities to the main DC storyline and a significant amount implies that Harley is “indeed being delusional” and that the relationship is one-sided.  No offense but it sounds like you want Joker to express emotion than his MO allows.

That’s a pretty bold statement to make to say that he loves her, my friend. Do you have clear evidence proving this? I would like links to the interviews that he’s done in the past. Besides Paul Dini just admitted at the San Diego Comic Con in 2007 that he was and I quote "...tired of writing Harley with the Joker." He wanted to Harley to have some room to grow and he made good on his word when she started making appearances in Countdown and Birds of Prey and finally starring one of the main characters in GCS. So how long ago was that claim you made?

Don’t get me wrong, I love Harley, I do but as long as the average fans see Harley playing the same song and dance routine with Joker, Harley will never be taken seriously enough to be a character worth respect and acknowledgement. That’s like saying that Dick Grayson can’t be taken as a character in his own right without Bruce having to carry him around, that’s ludicrous. You want Harley to be “parented” by the Joker forever?

Let me tell you something, if Joker and Harley’s relationship was indeed on mutual terms then how come we still talk about them or to the point where you have to be locked into serious debate? If their relationship can be explained so easily then the thread “Does Harley need Joker?” wouldn’t exist. In life, if it walks like duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, then it is indeed a duck; believe or not, there is such a thing as overanalyzing a simple concept.  
 
Oh and to get back on-topic, Harley needs Joker like she needs a bullet in her brain.  

@Avenging-X-Bolt: Yes I know, long post, isn't it? You gonna say something that's a little more clear??

Keep both character's apart i mean both are far more interesting when not together they weigh each other down.

The question is analogous to whether a ninja warrior requires an acolyte to dip his shuriken in poison!
 
Long live the clan!

@HarleyQuinnthusiast said:

This article is flawed on many levels. Harley's had years and years of alone time, and has not become any more independent than she ever was. And have any of you read GCS? In the comics thus far, Harley has tweeted, online shopped, online debated, sunbathed, walked the hyenas, eaten junk food, played video games and lounged around the hideout in her pajamas. Has she accomplished anything productive, liberating or empowering? no. By denying Harley a reunion with her beau for this much longer, she has become an air-headed couch potato bimbo with no real goals or motivation. She became a villain for the Joker's sake. He was and is her motivation. He gave her some excitement and laughter in an otherwise mundane existience she had been leading as Dr. Quinzel. He gave her something to strive for, to look forward to.
Also, Harley is not the leader type. She likes being told what to do, and needs to be told what to do in order to truly be productive. It's who she is. She has a very child-like mentality, and while she is dangerous, cunning, smart and menacing on her own, she needs a sense of direction to become truly sinister, or useful, or productive. The Joker gave her that direction, and that was when some of her most violent and sinister moments became apparent. Poison Ivy and Catwoman realize this, and while they give Harley something to do, it might not be enough, if she is still a lazy couch lump pining for her puddin'.
And the Joker did and still does care for Harley. In the comics that the pictures that this article links to are from to prove the relationship is loveless, there is evidence that they have intimacy, passion, and yes, even love. In the picture from Mad Love, in the next panel, Harley says "oh sweetie, I brought the whoopee cushion.." evidence that they have had, and still do have an active sex life, using the whoopee cushion as a sex toy. and also, "don't you wanna rev up your Harley??" She wouldn't be saying that if she didn't know the line would work, and it might have before...furthermore, in the "rocket scene" from batman: harley quinn that is referenced and taken completely out of context in GCS, the Joker openly tells Harley of his attraction and feelings for her. He is angry with her often because he hates the feeling of being attracted to someone else, having almost normal feelings for another. she humanizes him, he hates this, he acts violently and bitterly. except when he doesn't. he has, occasionally even without any manipulative motivation, kissed her, embraced her, caressed her, made love to her. He has had more than enough chances to axe her off, to get rid of her, but somehow, even at his most abusive, he never does. He is a merciless killer psychopath. If he truly, deeply hated and wanted to kill her, he would have already done it by now. If she truly meant nothing to him, wouldn't she be gone from the picture? fun fact: Paul Dini, the creator of Harley Quinn and the former writer of GCS had created the character of Harley Quinn in order to in some way humanize the least human rogue, the Joker.
and if you want to talk about character development and evolution, what about the evolution of the relationship? The Joker originally saw Harley has only a mere object, a toy for his own amusement and pleasure, a means of escape, and an extra pair of hands around the hideout. But over time, Harley has grown, and developed, gained strength and courage to fight back, and show defiance and individuality, and take a firm position in the relationship. And the Joker, while still viewing Harley as an Object and toy for his own manipulative and often abusive purposes, has come to view her as a loved one, someone with whom he can share his brand of humor with, someone who can truly become a main part of his twisted world. She has always made him laugh, that's what attracted him to her, but now she is in on all his jokes, she is a bigger part of his life. As poison ivy says in GCS, and I'm paraphrasing, "the Joker may have originally thought of you as a willing patsy, but eventually he let you in. He shared secrets with you he wouldn't have with any other living soul." They have grown into a dementedly happy couple over time, with more intimacy, passion and, yes, even love apparent in the relationship in the cartoons and the mainstream comics as their story progresses. to break them up now would be cutting off a brilliant love story half way though an unfinished chapter that has yet to be completed.

Harley’s been separated from Joker for 4 years now since Apr 2007 where they separate so exaggeration isn’t needed. Don’t make it sound like she had enough time to quickly get over Joker, who she’s been with since 1992. It takes time to heal from getting out of a relationship that’s been going on for so long.

The point to where Harley has developed a somewhat stable life that she now has hobbies other than stalking Joker is better than none at all. The point that her life can be described, regardless if you think it’s the life of couch potato is better than wasting hours through the day obsessing over and stalking a psychopath that decides whether you live or die.

Harley was an air-headed bimbo BEFORE Joker came into her life. The only reason why she has no goals or motivation now is because she’s aware of the likelihood starting a new career with her profile is slim to none because nobody wants a person that’s been associated with a dangerous sociopath. She can’t live the civilian life because most of the people around her already know who she is and fears being associated with her; her very identity and profile were publicized to the public. Don’t think that starting over is easy as pie for someone like her.

That’s true but don’t forget the times she’s been used as a punching bag from time to time by Joker and the fact that we’ve seen her question her role with him on many occasions but always ends up pushing it to the side when Joker turns the other cheek.

Just because Harley is a follower does not justify her being more suited with the Joker; that is nothing more than an empty excuse. She had plenty of things to do with Poison Ivy and Catwoman but even you have to admit that the ladies’ personal issues with romance was crumbing Harley’s efforts in staying away from her previous issues with her own.

What does their sex lives have anything to do with finding solid evidence that Joker and Harley have any kind of meaning to be together? How do you know Harley wasn’t trying to get Joker to have sex with her by saying and doing anything that might tempt him to. I’ve seen Harley try to seduce him on more than one occasion and Joker ALWAYS pushes her away to pursue his own plans.

You’re forgetting the fact that after the rocket scene, Poison Ivy saved her and Harley wanted revenge after what Joker did to her. Ivy gave her immunity to poisons and boosted her strength and reflexes that aided her in finally kicking Joker’s butt afterwards. Are you talking about Joker’s first response to Harley in GCS being “Hello Harley. I missed you.”? Are you serious?! Do you even realize how obtuse and completely unclear that statement is? That statement can be easily misinterpreted for something else. That’s not enough to prove that Joker has attraction and feelings for her.

What evolution are you talking about? Do you mean the constant re-hashing of the Mad Love plot between Joker and Harley? That can’t be counted as evolution if the relationship makes no change and it hasn’t changed in the slightest; the only thing that can be counted as change is Harley is slowly starting to wise up about her boyfriend’s true nature.

Now hold on a minute! When Poison Ivy said that, it was to convince Harley to let Joker go so the girls can kill the Joker because the kind of info she has on the Joker is dangerous and can get her killed! That line was during when the girls were attacked by the Joker, who turned later on to be a fake, in their own home. Besides that quote is not complete, the full dialogue is this: “Joker may have originally thought of you as a willing patsy, but eventually let you in. Whether he meant to or not, he shared with you things he’d never tell another living soul“. Harley agreed with her happily til Ivy remarked, “And did you really think he’d let you out unscathed?” That made Harley reconsiders her options then. You’re twisting dialogue to suit your own views! You really are no better than the typical JxH shipper that twists facts and ignores the dead-obvious abuse being dished out to Harley!

The love that Harley has for Joker, has always been and forever will be a joke. Anyone with common sense knows this fact and that is part of what draws people to Harley as a character. However, people are sick of seeing this same joke been told over and over and over again. It’s getting flat and really old; nearly 20 years old, to be exact. The drama has played out and people are getting sick of seeing Harley being used as a punching bag and marionette by the Joker.

Harley is a one note character dependent on others to work properly she is barely a character and the things that could make her work are not touched on just because fans like her she may need Joker but Joker is a stronger character without her.  

Ok! Pardon the length of this, but since this is the opposite of most of the other comments let’s call it fair.

I believe this article reflects a poor but all-too-typical series of totally subjective misunderstandings about Joker, Harley, and their relationship. The same with so many of the replies. In fact, for everything people have cited as “evidence” that the relationship is nothing but abusive or that Joker doesn’t even like her or that Harley’s just a schmuck, there’s an example of comraderie, trust, mutual affection and attachment, Harley’s badassery, and then some. I’m always stunned at how people gloss over this stuff.

First off, there are a MILLION story and character possibilities with her being “just the Joker’s girl” and I’d so much rather see those better explored than all this trying to force her into some uninspired new mold that has nothing to do with who she was created as or what makes her work. I’d rather see her laughing and scheming with the Joker than, I dunno, going on yet another GCS shopping trip away from those girls who just don’t get her or trust her nearly as much as Joker does. Also Joker IS definitely more deadly and dangerous with Harley. I don’t get how that can even be denied; even Batman and Alfred have said that.

Second, Dini himself has said that Joker loves Harley. Once to a room of 3000 people. In fact, the reason Joker even shot her off in that rocket, as Dini wrote it, was because he was starting to care for her and it freaked him out! Any chick who can throw Joker for a loop is a helluva force in my book. Even in Batman 663 it’s explained Joker’s trying to kill her because he cared for her, and eventually he even concedes to bringing her into his “new way” instead.

I love the Joker, but (when written well) Harley freshens him to a huge degree. To see how someone like him deals with caring for someone, and the deliciously twisted and unconventional ways that manifests itself make for so much more unique and complex storytelling than we often get. I love Harley, but a Harley that can do without the Joker is no Harley to me and strips her of a ton of her power and charm.

If more people explored they’re relationship with real insight there’d be no need for all this confusion and fiddling with her. It’s all these shallow, one-dimensional portrayals and many fans' amazing obliviousness to half of what they're reading that creates this dissatisfaction with who Harley is and what her and Joker’s relationship is. IMHO...

So in case you can’t tell, my vote is for them to reunite. But in a not sucky way.

I’m sorry but from the way you’re presenting your case, the same can be said for you.   Your opinion sounds like the typical JxH shipper’s view that gives no real credible evidence to prove your case but instead apologizes for the appearance of the relationship between Joker and Harley and tries to eloquently paint the relationship in a way that seems deeper than the relationship really is.

The relationship has already been explored for at least more than a decade starting from Harley’s first debut in 1992 to the point where Joker and Harley separated. Writers have been constantly presenting their own version from alternative realities to the main DC storyline and a significant amount implies that Harley is “indeed being delusional” and that the relationship is one-sided.  No offense but it sounds like you want Joker to express emotion than his MO allows.

That’s a pretty bold statement to make to say that he loves her, my friend. Do you have clear evidence proving this? I would like links to the interviews that he’s done in the past. Besides Paul Dini just admitted at the San Diego Comic Con in 2007 that he was and I quote "...tired of writing Harley with the Joker." He wanted to Harley to have some room to grow and he made good on his word when she started making appearances in Countdown and Birds of Prey and finally starring one of the main characters in GCS. So how long ago was that claim you made?

Don’t get me wrong, I love Harley, I do but as long as the average fans see Harley playing the same song and dance routine with Joker, Harley will never be taken seriously enough to be a character worth respect and acknowledgement. That’s like saying that Dick Grayson can’t be taken as a character in his own right without Bruce having to carry him around, that’s ludicrous. You want Harley to be “parented” by the Joker forever?

Let me tell you something, if Joker and Harley’s relationship was indeed on mutual terms then how come we still talk about them or to the point where you have to be locked into serious debate? If their relationship can be explained so easily then the thread “Does Harley need Joker?” wouldn’t exist. In life, if it walks like duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, then it is indeed a duck; believe or not, there is such a thing as overanalyzing a simple concept.  
 
Oh and to get back on-topic, Harley needs Joker like she needs a bullet in her brain.

harley needs to kill the joker

@moywar700 said:

harley needs to be killed by the joker

Fixed

@entropy_aegis: No.