Wonder Woman # 17 Spoilers

This issue really picked up a lot of steam, as it progressed.

Again, another illustration back to issue 13, confirming that Veronica Cale was being spoken to and called Adrianna.

And, it has been confirmed, Ferdinand is back.

Veronica is ruthless, but she also honors her promises.

Ferdinand reunites with Diana and gets a warm welcome.

Love that seductive pose.

What seductive pose?

Villainy Inc. is a dumb name by the way.

From what I'm hearing the run is bad. It's a slow mess. I was thinking about coming back to comics but I wont be picking up Wonder Woman until it gets better. Unfortunately I don't think that will happen until Rucka's gone.

She looks like a "dumb blonde" except she's not blonde and they are supposed to be hot and she looks a whole lot dumber. Oops. I'm not racist or anything but I believe it's a legit American term.

wut?

Villainy Inc is corny now which is actually cool at the time it was first created. You're probably not even born then.

Doesn't matter if I was born then or not. What matters is it's dumb now.

To be fair, the writer seems intent on undoing the New 52 and give us back his previous version of WW which is actually a great and amazing read.

Bringing us back to a previous run which may or may not been isn't an excuse. He could have written a more interesting way to do it. Though to be fair I'm hearing that it is bad second hand even though the hints I'm getting doesn't refute that.

I also love his interpretation of the gods with their updated modern look in that previous run.

uhg I don't like modern looking gods. THey should look like the time when people worshiped them to reflect them and not in modern times where they've abandoned each other. Which explains why they keep those societies rooted in the past to keep them worshiping the gods.

So I'm looking forward to retconning the murderous, pirate and rapist Amazons.

THat was a bad idea. I understand wanting to turn WW's Amazons to be more like the WW'S past version but they have an entire other group of Amazons where they could have said was AZZ version which would have kept in tune with myth not to mention was interesting.

He could have easily said WW was under a spell to think those Amazons were her Amazons so they could have WW's power or some other reason. It would be less a heavy handed approach than going scorched Earth, creating a convoluted slow mess.

Accepting how things worked in the past does not mean accepting they're not stupid, Just look at parachute pants. I know people who wore them who agree with me. That name V-Inc is one of those things they shouldn't bring back.

You're being that literal with your observations all of a sudden? Surely, you can notice that seductive pose and saying high old friend. It doesn't have to be a literal pose to get the gist.

I don't see seductive there literal or otherwise.

Okay this run isn't for dummies or people who don't like a mystery. You have to have the patience to put the pieces together and in every installment there's another piece of the puzzle. No, it's not dragging for me. I'm loving it!

This is a Wonder Woman dream, who thought when this began we'd get an updated and revamped Villainy Incorporated under another name or a Debbie Domaine easter egg? Who saw that coming? It wouldn't surprise me if the plane taken to Nightsong Hospital by Steve and Etta were invisible and Ferdinand's function is safeguarding it for Diana.

The art is phenomenal! The facial expressions, Ferdinand's sheepish grin, Barbara Ann's anguish, Etta's heartbreak, Adrianna/Dr. Cyber's bitchy smile while toying with Barbara Ann dressed up as a pussycat Cheetah, Diana Prince looked as perfect as anyone admitted into a hospital could, while wearing all white like the mod era. Sharp has as much style as Cliff Chiang and evokes a similar palpable mood, though his is a mix of film noir, Hitchcock as well as a gothic horror movie. We started in the jungle where everything was so lush I thought he was a one trick pony, but then he flipped it and drew urban settings equally well. The splashpage in 17 was amazing as were the Amazon's campground and the group shot conveying hundreds, without a lot of drawing. Liam Sharp has become one of my favorite WW artists, up there with Nicola Scott, Drew Johnson, the Dodsons and Adam Hughes.

Did anyone else catch that the snake implied Diana was gay after she couldn't come up with an answer for "Man"? You'd think her response would be "Steve" since she's in a relationship with him and he's the first man she ever saw, but she had nothing. Her discovering that about herself was the reason for the "tea".

I think the snake is Circe. The snake lives in the tree that represents Ares and Circe and Ares are together again as a couple. The real Ares is trapped under Themyscira in Tartarus, Godwatch, his sons and Circe are trying to get him released, so they're trying to find Themyscira. The "Ares" Diana fought in Year One was really Phobos and Deimos impersonating him, that's why the dogs Terror and Panic popped out of the explosion caused by Wonder Woman's lasso. Circe was probably responsible for them becoming dogs and that's why Veronica Cale is indebted to the witch she can't control.

Rucka isn't throwing out the New 52 or erasing Azzarello, he's incorporating it into a larger narrative about Wonder Woman's identity and her own "truths". Every issue is in a raggedy stack two feet away because I have to reread them and keep them close to assemble the clues. This is epic storytelling we're getting!

@scorpio_cassadine: You can't blame fans for wanting more things to happen at a faster pace though. Rucka is dragging the story by its feet through the grass and isn't delivering enough bang for some fan's bucks.

Shiiiiiiiid Circe just tried to drag Diana out of the closet she wasn't even aware she was in. There's A LOT going on, you just have to pay attention.

@scorpio_cassadine: I never even thought of Circe being the snake or Ares being trapped under the island. This mystery is getting even more interesting.

BTW, I really like "The Truth" story line so far. I can understand the pacing issue but, personally I feel like this story line is picking up, not a lot but it just feels its going a bit faster.

I hope after Rucka though we get more of an action packed adventure. Get some sweet feats in for her.

I was wrong, Rucka confirmed on twitter the snake isn't Circe.

Great; because it was beginning to look like Rucka was adjusting his plot to make you seem always right in these spoiler discussions (e.g. the out of left field introduction of Dr. Cyber, where she wasn't developed origin-wise, when I was speculating what clearly should have been a good place to enter Dr. Psycho; but, looks like Godwatch maybe what is being used to develop Dr. Cyber, except it clearly seems accommodative, where Dr. Cyber was nowhere).

I for one am enjoying the slow pace and better storyline. The action will hit in due time and the anticipation is what makes it great

The difference was the amount of action that was taking place. Azzarello had a long story with plenty of climax, Rucka's run from what I've read has just been really slow because it's so much to read, which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it does feel like it lacks action.

17 issues of hot nuthin. Yeah, this is way better when Azz run.

As a newish WW fan I like it. Don't know that I like Azzarello's run being erased as I'm liking that also, but I'll see where Rucka takes us before passing final judgement. I don't mind the slow pacing or Diana being more or less MIA. It'll just be that much sweeter when she returns full force.

@agent41: Yeah Azzarello's run was also slow paced, that is true. But Azz put in a lot more story twists and shocking moments to liven up the plot. Also, Azz's run was building up to something in its own self contained way whereas Rucka's Wonder Woman has the problem that it lacks a clear direction.

She's literally fighting two centaurs in the first issue...

And, just noticing; she's not wearing her bracelets, although Ferdinand is bringing her bracelets back to her in her pile of belongings; maybe that is having some effect on her being in her current state, also; but, if not, this is showing that both Marston and Azz has been retconned (where Azz brought Marston back to an extent) and the bracelets are basically just decorative or symbolic; now this would be a revolting development; yet the lasso hasn't lost any properties; looks like the Marston material has been selectively added and taken away to basically making Wonder Woman just a generic super-powered character, if what appears now to be true; why even leave the lasso with any properties at all? Yeah, this looks like a total capitulation to the feminist crowd or those claiming to be that and dictating the style of Wonder Woman (and wanting a prude for a character). I'll have to see if these defining characters from Marston are all truly gone now, and, if so, this definitely is not the character I meant to be seriously following.

And, to think, this might have actual been the case through the whole post-crisis era until Azz brought this defining characteristics back somewhat just very recently, but just giving her the berserker mode back. So, justifiably so, she's been struggling, as I'm apparently one of the last to notice; and, if Dr. Psycho isn't really coming back, that really does it for me. This doesn't look like the character that Marston created, but rather, a corporate logo or construct of sorts, yet Superman and Batman are the same characters that were created; while Superman and Batman are 70-80 year old characters, this Wonder Woman is actually just about 30 years old; this character should not be said to be approaching her 75 anniversary or whatever it would be now, or, issue 700. Wow, that was a really good way to duke a lot of people.

But, they're the same in fundamental ways that are character defining (e.g. Superman still came as a baby to be spared from a doomed planet and he's still weak to kryptonite; Batman is still a detective who operates at night, has a Batmobile, and dwells in a cave; Wonder Woman possibly has no weakness and the lasso possibly cannot be used against her (Superman can have a (persistent) weakness (that spans his entire history) but Wonder Woman cannot? Batman, by virtual of being just human has weaknesses already); not only that, but she may be the only one capable of wielding the lasso; piercing objects may not even be a weakness anymore; if the bracelets are nothing more than symbolic jewelry, than she's a completely, fundamentally different character by comparison; and, those were basically all the things that attracted me to Wonder Woman, except Dr. Psycho, a later, much more minor addition, by comparison, and Wonder Woman's interaction with bizarre characters and being able to establish a Beauty and Beast or Esmeralda and Quasimodo dynamic with them, and we haven't seen that in decades, except maybe her with Ferdinand, except he got paired with another woman the last time around; this latter one could be the glue for me, if brought back, but the character defining issues were key; if they are just gone, than where do I hang my hat?. With these revelations that I noticed today, next issue and beyond, as she interacts with Ferdinand is more crucial than ever, unless and addition to the arrival of Dr. Psycho.

@dshipp17: Hey there. Bats and Supes' origins have remained more or less the same, but their characters have drastically changed. WW's character is a lot more consistent than them if you look at their inceptions, even though her origins have changed too much.

"Batman is no longer the same kind of detective. And he can go from human to God level depending on the story. Popularity killed the vulnerable part of the character almost completely. They have turned him into an extreme case of plot armor."

What you point out here isn't anything significant; it's just a personal perception of yours that he's not human; he's still a human with the weaknesses of a human and still a detective who works at night. The equivalent to the changes made to Wonder Woman would literally be to change him into someone with super powers and make his occupation something completely different, but kind of related such as a mailman or something; that hasn't been done and Batman is still the same fundamental character. You haven't pointed out any significant change to Superman; he still has the same defining characteristics which are the one's that I pointed out. You're obviously trying to create of position that just isn't there.

"WW has had changes too. But some things are still there. Still an amazon, still a princess, still a warrior. A woman that came from a paradise to help humans to fight evil. Her weapons still have a meaning. Weakness to piercing or not. "

Of course there have been changes, as I said (the point was that there were no character defining changes to Batman and Superman); and character defining changes, if things hold up to what I just came to realize today. What you point out as still being there makes Wonder Woman a generic character with superpowers and no apparent weaknesses or character traits outside of superpowers; there are thousands of characters throughout the history of writing that have been a princess combined with a warrior to fight evil. Her weapons aren't anything of noteworthy significance. And, there's nothing appealing about this character in a way that's significant; more likely than not, this will lead to a movie that will initially draw some people in but have a huge drop off (e.g. of, if not, definitely not something amendable for something beyond, like a sequel, tv series, or animated series, and no lasting merchandise line of real significance); and, if these characteristics remain, the fan base will never grow and is destined to decline ever so gradually; it would be best to just let this character revert back to the Marston estate, let them bring all of the unique characteristics back, and contract the character out to another company, where they could than mandate that the company stick with the defining characteristics of this character (e.g. but, the catch is that the company would be much more adult oriented, where she would be immensely popular, where they be loyal and not finicky, although repulsive to the current audience that DC is using Wonder Woman to cater to); this is clearly not the same character that Marston created, if everything I noticed today turns out to be true; it's just a corporate construct being used to hold people on an origin story that really no longer exists; it's done by avoiding answering tough questions such as will she be weakened, if a man chained her bracelets, and will she be under someone else's control, if they used the lasso on her, and is she still venerable to piercing objects, although that one is not as groundbreaking, if she is, as I'm not interested in seeing the character actually killed? If no to all of these questions, than, this is not the same character and there's nothing unique about this character; I did not come to Wonder Woman merely because she's a female with superpowers like Superman, as there are many characters like that (e.g. Supergirl, Powergirl, Carol Danvers, etc, yet I'm not devoted to either of those characters, because merely having superpowers is nothing that much worth my time; when Carol was in the clutches of the Kree, there was at least that, but, if she's just a strong character explaining how she joined the services or going about her daily activities, than, I have nothing there, because those things are a dime a dozen; I can find a female character everywhere with those characteristics, and, if she's just meeting prince charming, that dilutes her even more, because, what female isn't looking for that in all the globe? Why would she be so special out of hundreds of millions of other women who are doing that?; getting back to Wonder Woman, pretty much all comic outlets have their female with superpowers, Wonder Woman was just there longer, except keeping people on board with a guise that might have disappeared with issue 95 of volume 2; making people believe that she's a character that she really isn't anymore is very disingenuous).

"But to say that all of WW characterisations are gone?. I don't see it that way."

All of the important characteristics of the character might have been taken away, the ones that made her truly stand out from the pack. The characteristics that make Batman and Superman stand out are still there (e.g. any detective is almost always going to be a rip off of Batman and any extremely strong man who can fly really fast is always going to be a rip off of Superman; if Wonder Woman is really strong and can fly, she's basically just a rip off of Superman and frankly, a redundancy; and, just as well, she's treated as that extra that not many people really care about, except for a courtesy of being inclusive; but, with her defining characteristics, she certainly is unique, but her audience would also be more unique than the Superman audience; or, basically, Wonder Woman is competing hard for a place which she doesn't have to be competing hard for, as she wasn't created to be in that position; if so, I'm quite confident that she would have vanished into obscurity long ago, likely before 1980; that's happening now, unless abrupt changes are made back to the Marston origins and just letting the audience they're trying to appease to using Wonder Woman just wither by the vine, as that audience is either finicky or forcing Wonder Woman to complete somewhere that is going to kill her).

You read his post but not mine; they haven't changed in character defining ways; sure, they can change, but, as long as the fundamenbtals are there, they have change in a way that's noteworthy.

No, the change is not drastic, if they do not change the fundamentals of the character; since Wonder Woman may not be the same character that Marston introduced, she's not the same character from her inception; sure, she's been consistent in the last 30 years, but consistently wrong and different from the character that Marston introduced; the one in the last 30 years is a Superman rip off, a redundancy, and a character just slowly withering away, as she's competing for a position that Superman already invented, as a full read of my last post shows, the longer post in 35.

Its not fair to call her a Superman rip-off. Most of the superheroes are. How would you say that she has changed? She has always been portrayed as a fierce warrior and a loving person at the same time. Superman was as violent as the modern Batman at the start. Nowhere close to the boy scout we know and love. And Batman? The guy was a serial killer! Heck, he used guns. Like I said their origins have remained the same, but their characterizations have changed a lot.

"How would you say that she has changed? She has always been portrayed as a fierce warrior and a loving person at the same time. Superman was as violent as the modern Batman at the start. Nowhere close to the boy scout we know and love. And Batman? The guy was a serial killer! Heck, he used guns. Like I said their origins have remained the same, but their characterizations have changed a lot."

Again, fundamental changes may have been made to Wonder Woman, but not to Batman or Superman. Wonder Woman was weak to a man chaining her bracelets together; now she may not be; that's a fundamental change to her character and makes her a different character, because, for one, now she's super powered with no known weakness (and, when she's beaten, which literally means beaten, this than leads to endless whining about how DC isn't respecting women, male on female violence, the gig we had with Genocide, which was similar to the Firstborn gig, and see how much whining that generated, but still, how uninteresting and uninspired it was to someone like me, as being beaten in a fisticuffs is pretty common, etc, but only those type of stories, from an array of different and unique stories if she had the weakness of having her bracelets chained by a man and being forced to obey, because of the lasso), and, two the unique BDSM connections are ripped away and replaced with a generic element already invented by Superman (e.g. super strength, super speed, and possibly flight (the other is using the lasso against her by making her obey, which has both the BDSM but also some unique array of story potential of its own); there's no more adding to that, but, it's a very unique character characteristics that can never be improved upon, only something that can create a character redundancy, speaking of Superman's power set; other than being female, how are Supergirl and Powergirl any different from Superman, and, really, how is Wonder Woman any different and why isn't she just simply called Superwoman?); again, this would be the equivalent of saying that Superman no longer has any vulnerabilities to kryptonite; as a matter of fact, DC went further and expanded upon this characteristic by creating all different kinds of kyptonite; what you're talking about, Superman going from more violent to more pacifist is not character defining, that's just a maturity of the character; in the case of Wonder Woman, that change would be like, first, she came to the outside to bring Steve back, but, than, she came to be an ambassador of peace (e.g. than, you ask, who does she think she is to be an ambassador of peace, whereas, before, ok, she's just love struck of some handsome guy, being that she never had occasion to interact with a man before; I can see that in reverse order,in the case of Superman; you can say, why be so passive with all of your abilities to, who does he think he is to decide who lives and who dies; but, he's still venerable to kyptonite and that comes with a whole array of stories, with more in site with the other types of kyptonite; in Wonder Woman's case, possibly striping away the weakness to having her bracelets chained together by a male stripped away a nearly limitless array of stories to now making her compete with and distinguish herself from Superman and every other character with these powers, such as Supergirl and Powergirl, without being called Superwoman; sure, Wonder Woman may be a more skilled fighter, but, that makes her compete with something else that's even more highly saturated, a character's superpower being their warrior skills; and it doesn't make any difference that she was redundant to Superman, starting in 1941, with a redundant character created in 1995; the 1995 character still competes with Wonder Woman, no matter her longevity, because, she's already a knock off of something Superman invented, whereas the character created in 1995 is likewise and they have to scramble and compete; however, in 1941, Wonder Woman didn't have this problem in having her weaknesses with BDSM connections, something extremely unique in comics; it's still benefiting Wonder Woman, because the perception is that it's still there and, using me, as an example, kept me attach for a long time, because, I'm thing DC just avoids going there, not that it's gone altogether; and, Azz, for one, reinforced that perception for me, when she went into a variation of the berserk mode, when her bracelets were removed; now, if that's being striped away officially, removing the Marston connection, than, as I said, just a redundant character like Supergirl who just hasn't figured out to start calling herself Superwoman, yet).

And, about that loving person part, well, that's very highly debatable and I discussed that a lot with how it's something only presumed but not on display and comics, especially since she doesn't interact with a character like Dr. Psycho and wasn't interacting with Ferdinand, post-crisis speaking, that is; what I may have discovered is that she is in fact different from her pre-crisis incarnation, so, since she may no longer have the weakness with her bracelets, why logically assuming that she even still has the same virtues of the pre-crisis Wonder Woman? And, we can't because she hasn't been tested in the same way as pre-crisis Wonder Woman (e.g. she had her encounter with Dr. Psycho in issue 168 of volume 1, and she married a beast, as two examples; while not a lot, she also have her love triangle with Steve, Birdboy, and Merman, so, I can indeed conclude that pre-crisis Wonder Woman had virtues); post-crisis Wonder Woman hasn't had anything close and we're supposed to assume she has the same or any virtues at all simply because she's shown compassion to women, which she's supposed, being an Amazon; being in rescue missions just doesn't count at all, and, we're yet to even know the history between Wonder Woman and Ferdinand; she could just have been helping him with a place to stay because he was running from Hephaestus or something, an act she certainly expected of her and something that even Wolverine or Hulk would likely do. With the love triangle, marrying a monster, and what she did with Dr. Psycho show's that she's not shallow, pre-crisis version, that is; she just had her commitments to Steve; but, than, the depowered era and the men she dated than debased her significantly, but, that was a different writer, but, lead to a path she's never broken. Or, in other words, now, with her looking for a handsome man and a handsome man only being implied to get her attention, you've effectively taken her away from one, very unique audience of fans and potential fans and placed her back into a plan and common audience of fans and potential fans (e.g. the ones that the mass entertainment industry already targets with endless competition (e.g. they like the perfect with the perfect girl, the jock with the head cheerleader, etc), from the audience that like stories like Beauty and the Beast and Hunchback, the audience that's been deprived and starving with no competition in it).