Everyone who has lifted the hammer has a warrior mentality Superman lacks. I think part of it is killing. Superman one time was thrust into a long war in Asgard and refused to kill the demons there were fighting. He refuses to kill under any circumstances. From a warrior's perspective this is ridiculous and foolish. I think that is part of it an on a whole he lacks the same warrior spirits those who have lifted it do.
@MOONKNIGHT-LANTERN: I do not hate Superman. I was just stating based on my knowledge of Superman and those who have lifted it what sets them apart. Everyone who has lifted it has more of a traditional warrior mentality than superman
"@MOONKNIGHT-LANTERN: I do not hate Superman. I was just stating based on my knowledge of Superman and those who have lifted it what sets them apart. Everyone who has lifted it has more of a traditional warrior mentality than superman"
no not you...i was talking about the other people on the vine ....like the creator of the thread ..he sounds like he hates superman just by reading his post....
I agree, however. (With my limited knowledge of Thor) Superman is not a warrior. He has plenty of spirit and resolve; he will never give up and will always fight for those who need him. But Superman was only raised to believe in good and born with natural strength whereas Thor and others like Wonder Woman were trained since birth (or creation) to fight and to destroy their opponents. As much as it pains me to say it, according to the legend of Thor's hammer, Superman should not be able to lift it.
Personally I don't think his lack of willingness to kill makes him any less of a warrior, for instance in World of New Krypton, where Superman is actually acting as Commander El. He has always tried to resolve things without killing but not without hesistating to take any action. Maybe some will say that it takes the warrior aspect from it but for me that only fundaments that he is one warrior that still stands above most of them. Superman knows the easiest way to end most conflicts is by using his superior power but knows that because it's the easiest doesn't mean that it's the best way.
Captain America and Wonder Woman both have killed in the past, yes but that's never been their first option. Even Superman has killed in the past but that doesn't mean he lacks warrior courage. Just throwing that out there, then again I'm a big Superman fan.
" it was non canon and superman didnt lift it under his own merit he was allowed by thor and his father that was made perfectly clear. "
JLA/Avengers has been stated to be canon by both DC and Marvel Unless I'm missing something Captain America also was allowed by Thor am I not right? And even if Superman was allowed, doesn't that mean that Odin (creator of Mjolnier) considers him worthy enough to use it anyway? lol
no, the crossover is only canon and made reference by DC not marvel.... second being allowed to wield the hammer doesnt mean he can lift it alone under his own merit, it was blatantly shown superman was not worthy do lift the hammer the second time without permission... cap has a better shot at being worthy then superman to lift the hammer, he is a true warrior in every sense of the word..
Was the time you mentioned Superman killing in an alternate reality? As far as I know present Superman pretty much refuses to kill under any circumstances. The difference being Thor and Wonder Woman do not use killing as the first time, but in a matter of war or emergenices they know sometimes there is not another option. You may have your idea of a warrior, but the question is is it Odin's idea of a warrior. I think Odin would consider Superman a hero, but not a warrior-born like Wonder Woman and Thor.
Superman lifted it one time, but could not afterwards. Thor made it quite clear this was because it was an emergency. The worthiness clause works normally by a person has to be worthy, but in emergency situations someone not worthy can temporarily lift it and use its powers, but is not truly worthy.
On the point of killing and what it contributes to being a warrior, from Asgard's Realm and the other worlds in the Thor mythos, death in battle is usually a great honour, if not the greatest honour. In that same regard, giving someone "a good death" as they put it in 300, killing someone in battle, often sends them to a realm of particular importance (such as Valhalla for the Asgardians) or makes them a hero to their people, dying for the ultimate cause.
As Superman refuses to kill, he doesn't give his opponents the honourable death they seek in battle, by letting his opponents live time and time again, he continualy denies them the right to join their comrades/ancestors that have died in battle and have that "great honour" of dying in battle.
I'm almost positive nothing like that has ever been said in Comics, but I think its an interesting theory.
"On the point of killing and what it contributes to being a warrior, from Asgard's Realm and the other worlds in the Thor mythos, death in battle is usually a great honour, if not the greatest honour. In that same regard, giving someone "a good death" as they put it in 300, killing someone in battle, often sends them to a realm of particular importance (such as Valhalla for the Asgardians) or makes them a hero to their people, dying for the ultimate cause. As Superman refuses to kill, he doesn't give his opponents the honourable death they seek in battle, by letting his opponents live time and time again, he continualy denies them the right to join their comrades/ancestors that have died in battle and have that "great honour" of dying in battle. I'm almost positive nothing like that has ever been said in Comics, but I think its an interesting theory. "
But which of Supermans enemies are actually seeking death when they fight him? Unless they would consider it an honor to be killed fighting him, Superman really isn't denying them any honor.
" Was the time you mentioned Superman killing in an alternate reality? As far as I know present Superman pretty much refuses to kill under any circumstances. The difference being Thor and Wonder Woman do not use killing as the first time, but in a matter of war or emergenices they know sometimes there is not another option. You may have your idea of a warrior, but the question is is it Odin's idea of a warrior. I think Odin would consider Superman a hero, but not a warrior-born like Wonder Woman and Thor.Superman lifted it one time, but could not afterwards. Thor made it quite clear this was because it was an emergency. The worthiness clause works normally by a person has to be worthy, but in emergency situations someone not worthy can temporarily lift it and use its powers, but is not truly worthy. "
I think he is refering to "Superman Exile" which is canon in the normal DC universe. I think it's collected in tp and the information is in the official website of DC Comics
@Gambler: that's a fluke red hulk did it to, so as long as Thor, or someone worthy already holds the hammer they can to aslong as the one weilding the hammer doesn't let go. In that pic if Thor had let go the weight of the hammer would have broke supermans arm. Also superman told wonder woman in Trinity that if he were a normal man he probably woun't be as brave, but Thor, Cap, and the others to lift the hammer would fight for what's right no matter what. That's why Klark well never lift Thor's hammer.
in ultimate avengers Hulk lifted Thor's hammer through pure strength, not sure if you count that as cannon or not ( if hulk can do it through pure strength im sure superman can too)
Because as long as Joe Quesada is EIC of Marvel comics, DC won't deal in another crossover with Marvel.
Which...personally...does not hurt my feelings. I'm tired of Thor playing second fiddle to Superman. The whole merging of two realities was PIS in the extreme...to allow Superman to save the day...
"Oh stop it already. There is no reason why Superman would not be able to lift Thor's hammer. "
Except that's it's enchanted, right? "
The question of the thread is why the hammer's enchantment would not allow Superman to lift it. I say there is no reason and he could lift it wield his power just fine. Does that clear it up?
"Oh stop it already. There is no reason why Superman would not be able to lift Thor's hammer. "
Except that's it's enchanted, right? "
The question of the thread is why the hammer's enchantment would not allow Superman to lift it. I say there is no reason and he could lift it wield his power just fine. Does that clear it up? "
Half of me thought you were kidding and the other half thought you would respond with something like that. So I have to ask you what makes you think he's worthy? %Pr
" Half of me thought you were kidding and the other half thought you would respond with something like that. So I have to ask you what makes you think he's worthy? %Pr "
Because I've seen nothing to suggest otherwise. Is he honorable? Yes. Is he a good man? Yes. Is he a warrior? Yes. We've seen that of him many times. Hell, he's currently the supreme military leader of New Krypton. Is he willing to die for others and for his principles? Yes. Would he put the hammer to good purpose? Yes. Anyone who knows anything about him would know that.
I see nothing about the people who have already lifted the hammer that would separate them from Superman. They even said Hercules was worthy to wield the hammer, but Superman isn't? Come on.
@AtPhantom: Well put. My new found hatred for SM seems to fog my memory. Before you wrote this all I could think of was, ' no he can't, he's a weinie'. The power of hatred is an amazing force. %Pr
" @AtPhantom: Well put. My new found hatred for SM seems to fog my memory. Before you wrote this all I could think of was, ' no he can't, he's a weinie'. The power of hatred is an amazing force. %Pr "
@AtPhantom: To be honest, I could probably never fully hate Superman, but his powers are to unbelievable for me at the momment. How is he strong enough to move the planet, even with the help of two other JLA'er? Move near or at the speed of light. I know he's been doing those things forever, but it doesn't sit well with me for now. The source of his powers and how it augments him doesn't help either. It just doen'st make sense. I know it's a work of fiction, but give me something plausible please... %Pr
" @AtPhantom: To be honest, I could probably never fully hate Superman, but his powers are to unbelievable for me at the momment. How is he strong enough to move the planet, even with the help of two other JLA'er? Move near or at the speed of light. I know he's been doing those things forever, but it doesn't sit well with me for now. The source of his powers and how it augments him doesn't help either. It just doen'st make sense. I know it's a work of fiction, but give me something plausible please... %Pr "
I can understand that. It bothered me too for a long time, but I just went over it. I just don't care about it anymore.
@Omega-level Supreme: Man that's how I feel about Superman. He was awesome and my favorite when I was younger, his death actually got me interested into comics. But as I grew older, and more cynical, he just seemed to stay the same boring old character. Now recent developments make me want to give him a chance, its just I don't know if I want to give that chance just to waste money and drop him after a few issues sorta like I did with JSA.
SUPERMAN IS A DC CHARACTER...THOR IS A MARVEL CHARACTER.CLOSE THREAD.
"
No I actually buy Wonder Woman lifting the hammer
Warrior trained, does she know how to kick, wrestle and box YES Did she grow up clashing spears with her buddies, did she grow up with cold steel in her hands? YES Has she fought demons, does she know about magic? Does she lob off heads of her enemies, has she fought the gods YES Does Diana have her own ship that would impress a Viking craftsman YES
but Kurt Busiek writing that crossover GARBAGE no HELL NO I'm surprised because Kurt is normally a high grade writer but his take on Thor always sucked
@saiyan_earthling
said:
" isn't it supposed to be like only those who are worthy can lift and use the hammer? "
because Odin has some long standing bad beef with the Kryptonians. no one really knows the exact details, but what is known that it has something to do with a long time ago, Reno Nevada, booze, and Supermans ancestor setting fire to Odins beard. Mjolnir has some kind of guard against Kryptonains (who usually have a bad reaction with magic) placed on it. In fact the print on Mjolnir reads...
I think its a good point that was mentioned early on that it would be Odin's idea of worthy so Superman may not precisely fit this Norse idea of worthiness.
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