Africa Discussion Thread

@armistice: I kinda love you right now.

I have tried my best to stay off my soapbox, but this is going to become an Armistice Problem.

Pretty much this. I won't go so far as to say that the empires were the only reason that the activity in Prime dwindled away to nothing, but they were certainly a major contributing factor.

@armistice: I'd be lying if I said I didn't see it coming, or agree.

@armistice: Also really glad that you embraced the terminology.

Better to work it out now and not after the world has been carved up like a holiday ham

It has taken on a life of it's own, might as well embrace it. That said I really hope common sense prevails and it does not resort to that.

@armistice: Work it out. Hm.

If your willing to try and take and hold each country to try and achieve your goal i think its ok. But the more you attempt to capture and hold the more likely the rest of the vine coordinates and attacks you on several fronts at once. I have no personal stake with any of my characters but if i saw an empire forming i would fight it just for the hell of it for example.

d^_^b

@superstay:

LOL

Thar pic kills me

@armistice:

Really? LOL,

d^_^b

made me LOL

@armistice:

Well, I'm glad Sungmin made you laugh.

d^_^b

There are 54 countries in Africa. If you want to take the continent you will have to fight for each and every one of those countries.

That is not impossible, but it would take a lot of time and effort and you would not be guaranteed to win every country.

Who do you think is actually going to devote the time to answer all 54 potential claims ? Nobody has the time or patience for that, people lost interest in the defense of Venezuela before the end of the first invasion.

Anyone who is not blind can see there are multiple ways to game the system for Empires, either revise them to make sense or just throw the rules out the window. But lets get all on the same page so everyone knows the way things are going forward.

I agree. And honestly, I was explaining in private message the other day or week or so, the empire rules aren't the only ones with potential holes to be "gamed," or in such a case, simply disregarded. But I'll hold off on the public stating of specific thoughts for now.

Obviously the vast majority would be taken quite easily, but there are many that people would fight for, so if his plan is to get the full 'set' then that's unlikely to happen...

I haven't really looked into the empire rules. Is it basically just about competing for territory? Like, say he tries to take Egypt and I don't want him to, but don't want control of Egypt myself. Can I fight to ensure the status quo remains the same, or do I have to assume control of the country myself?

@_eclipse_: I assume if you win, you can do whatever you want. That's what I was gonna do with Venezuela, had things run their course with Abigail. Back to normal, pre-empire control.

And there is nothing wrong with that, the CVnU Rules were a first draft, expecting them to predict every potential application of it would be insane.

It was a step in the right direction and IMO we should continue in that direction. If an alteration is proposed it should be discussed like adults and only changed if their is a significant majority in favor of it. Change is to be expected over time and should not be looked at as a bad thing.

Most of this is not rocket science, people just need to remember that the CVnU is not THEIR sandbox, it's OUR sandbox and not try to horde all the toys.

Hey, at least the guy followed the rules and made the thread. Can't knock him for that.

@armistice: I was thinking of this really elaborate, nicely constructed response. Then I saw this:

Of course not. But I think there is a bigger issue apparently to do with the rules.

IMO you are vastly overestimating the level of organization on here, but this is only speculation at this point based off of past events.

I really cannot see entire groups of people countering potential endless claims on another person or groups whim before just saying F it and saying it is not worth the effort.

I saw it, too lazy to edit

I am not calling out anyone in particular, actually have no idea whose alt this is, my point refers to the Vine as a whole.

Those of us who were around for Prime already know better, the newer people have no idea how bad it got so if he is new I don't blame him in the slightest for just following a trend.

I mean it's one thing to talk about it...

I think there should be a legit plan, sort of a layout; for future empires. A declaration of war (The Warning), The War; and if successful a plan, for how the empire will be used in the immediate future.

No one controls Africa just like no one controls North America. Continent are made of different countries so you would have to conquer each country in Africa. Just making sure you know.

@armistice: True. I FK'ed up near the end with Venezuela but Gambler was awesome about it and let it be. Us noobs need a little slack! lol

I'm just saying that if people keep seeing '[Insert African Country here] Discussion' threads (over 50 of them) then eventually they might want to jump in and try and stop the guy... That's what I was thinking anyway, not sure I actually SAID anything of the sort >_>

But yeah, my point with bringing up the number of countries involved is to say the amount of work needed to pull this off is simply not worth it. To create 54 discussion threads and then actually fight for the maybe 10 or so that people would actually want to fight for, with the result being owning most of the countries in Africa, so he can... what? Not sure the endgame is worth it, given how much effort this would take.

This kinda makes me wanna establish an Empire myself, just so I can go against the usual trend of 'I have taken over this country and now everyone loves me' and actually explore the political and public backlash against such a takeover, lol... Like I get that with the stories we come up with here, the Vine is not exactly a 'realistic' universe, but I find it odd how little effort people seem to think it takes to run a country.

@pyrogram: Hey, remember that thing we discussed? AoI, and all the stuff surrounding that? It's relevant.

@_strigidae_: Aol?

@pyrogram: Aoi. That Japanese girl? The one who was gonna be made to do all those horrible things?

@_strigidae_: A litttle...a little...uhh cannot remember fully though.

@pyrogram: Sometimes I forget not everyone remembers like me.

@_strigidae_: That's why you remind us things lol :)

We all have heightened feelings regarding "land grabs" and "empires." But as some have pointed out, we shouldn't jump down Sterling's throat for the past mistakes of others. He's following the rules and as far as I can tell is not looking to exploit or game the system. He has an idea, he's announcing the idea, and he's looking for feedback. Feedback mind you about this particular occasion. I dont know Sterling, dont rp with Sterling, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt as it pertains to the process of "trying" to achieve a continental empire. If done correctly (win or lose) it has potential for some awesome story telling, plot development, and character interaction. Or it could blow up into a drama filled charade causing division, segregation, and backhanded comments. Either way I'm kinda excited :D

This!

@tranquil: If you're agreeing with me then that means I'm probably on the wrong side of this debate :P j/k

@the_last_arashikage: Shaddup Mr. Speed Force. :P

The logistical nightmare that is this proposal will never happen, it will either become abandoned at one point or people will just give him Africa to be done with it, neither is a promising result.

Everyone wants to keep up or one up each other and the Empire landslide will be in full gear.

As for the actual nuts and bolts of taking over and running an Empire, I agree people gloss over it and assume much, but not everyone wants to explore that part of it.

The odds of success to blowing up are a long shot at best based on the proposal and setting a precedent for Empires of this scale is problematic at best. This is nothing personal, I would have the same feelings no matter who it was proposing it, I do not know who this alt is either.

The potential you state while possible is far outweighed by this becoming a long and drawn out cluster, not that it would be intentional.

@armistice: Fair points. You clearly have more experience with empires than me (they weren't a thing when I was around, so it's all hypothetical to me) so I'll bow to your superior knowledge, lol

As far as Land grabs and what not, I just think people's, and I do mean the general people's, grasp is too wide for an idea that could fit on a thumb end. You've got a whole continent or country, cool. Realistically just ask yourself, could I accomplish the same goals with a city or even a small state? It's good to be ambitious to a goal but using a wide mass like the entire of africa, you gotta wonder if there's another means to the end. You think about it I'd rather control 1/3 of europe than the whole of Africa. Or even an eight of the middle east. I think Empire's aren't the problem, the problem is people's wide view of a possible empire/ plot of land. Just look at your idea from a small scale and build it to a level that matches your goals, don't over shoot for no other reason than future recognition or a sense of power.

I dont have a problem with Empires of any size as long as they are attempted through rpgs. Empires werent a big problem, the inactivity of large empires were. Which came about because they were so easily obtained and there for easily abandoned. Its why there were so many. That and as soon as users saw one Empire go up they scrambled to stake some land for themselves for fear they'd end up rp'ing in someone elses backyard. This here isnt setting a precedent at all. The ability to "try" and establish a large empire has always been there. As pointed out in another thread the rules arent in place to prevent empire creation but rather to regulate it. All large scale rpgs have minimal success rates, always have. They more often then not end in drama or worse. But thats nothing new. And even in those cases people still use bits and pieces of the event as canon. Venz (both times) was an unmitigated collapse and yet here we are months later still with an active Venz thread, still with story lines revolving around Venz, and characters still referencing events from past Venz rpgs. We're Vine rpgers son, we take what we can get and we do what we do. The minute we start trying to enforce things based off analytical success rates is the minute I'll burn this bitch to the ground :P

I agree with this, an Empire does not need to be so all-consuming and restrictive to others to be cool.

A failed and stagnant Empire that occupies a 50 square mile section of random land is a lot easier to work around than one that involves an entire country or even worse, continent.

You do not need a calculator to see the risk/reward and Surkit's comment follows my line of thinking.

This all makes perfect sense. I just wanna start out by saying that.

And I dont really disagree but I would add that maybe (and I cant speak for everyone) the goal here isnt about the actual conquest. I'm projecting a bit here I know, but maybe the actual conquest of Africa is simply his catalyst for a large scale event? How many times have you read someone throw down the "go big or go home" line? But then when someone does he gets trampled not because of what he's done, but because the "fear" of what will happen or what it will lead to has stirred some feelings? I personally dont see a problem with people over shooting cause if its truly to big for their means it'll collapse without any help from the outside. But as long as they are following the rules let em go for it. If he really wants to try and conquer Africa one country at a time I say have at it. As long as he understands that the story building and not whether or not he succeeds is what will determine the fun/real success of the idea, then it shouldnt be an issue.

Your projecting based on your own fear.

1. Attempting to obtain land, a country, etc, in and of itself does not make an empire
2. Going for and failing to obtain a country wouldnt force "you" to work around anything
3. The Empire rules arent in place to regulate "size" thats beyond ridiculous
4. One day I may decide to go for an entire continent Empire and I'll try it one country at a time and there aint a rule to be made that will stop me. So I'll not expect anyone else to have to either

Surkit's opinion is a valid one. But there is nothing in the current rules that prevents people from overreaching or having high a go big or go home agenda. And to try and push for such a rule now only after this user has proposed his idea is a sad state of affairs.

That is what its all about at the end of the day. Can't tell how long it took me to get that lesson.

@the_last_arashikage: I actually agree with that. My whole point isn't 'Don't do it.' Its 'Don;t do it if it's unnecessary '

If he needs Africa to sell an event than go for it. So long as the motive justifies the direction I always wanna see somebody go for it. The time and energy wasted on a plot that'll collapse anyway doesn't just factor in that one person though. Now that we've got the Nu and the new rules and the way people view them one persons effect on a location will effect anyone else who tries to even visit that location. Venezuela is a clear sign of how that works. Picture the country like currency, say africa is a 20 piece. Now I lend you that twenty piece and you don't flip it, instead you waste it and I see no return. Now I'm assed out money, and your no poorer, meanwhile I've got to work to earn back that twenty that I'm short on if I need it later when I could have just kept it in my pocket. It's a long metaphor but I figure you get it.

Proposing a discussion about something before it potentially gets out of control is not ridiculous or sad, if this discussion took place years ago we all may still be in Prime. (no guarantee)

Things changing from a team based to an Empire based direction has a lot of implications. That and I see very few claims every being defeated for a multitude of reasons.

I'm not saying I'm right, I'm not saying I'm wrong, but doing something of this scale warrants discussion before moving forward.

But again the "currency" metaphor is one based off from projected failure. I'm not entirely clear on what has failed in this scenario, whether or not he's actually done multiple rpgs, conquered the whole of Africa, and then done nothing with the Empire, or attempted and failed to conquer Africa. Nether of which would effect anyone beyond any other rpg. The Statue of Liberty was destroyed and not only did the majority not even realize, the ones who did didnt care. Its altered nothing in terms of the way people have proceeded with things. Venz is actually an example of how to turn a failure into a success. None of this, the empires, the failure or successes, are things that cant be glossed over, tweaked, fixed, etc. We just have to act mature enough to do it(by we I mean the collective). What I'm afraid I'm seeing here in alot of the responses are projections of failure being used as reasons not to do something. If he goes for it and things get f'd up you're not out a 20 cause its make believe. Bamf, here, brand new 20. You're not out of pocket anything. It could fail, it could get heated, but it will pass, we'll compromise, and we'll set things back in order. But I'm willing to bet it would be a mixture of both. Some confusion, some fun, some ignored canon, some memorable moments, a couple spats, etc. The great thing about the nU and Empire paranoia is that there will always be a line of users to appose someone looking to conquer some sh!t no matter how big or small.

We really need more peoples opinion, I think everyone involved has good points, but this should not live or die without more views in detail.