Which was more confusing, Convergence or X-Men Days of Future Past (the movies)?

Haven't read Convergence, but I do not find the DoFP movie to be at all confusing.....except for how the hell did Kitty gain the power to send others back through time.

@lateralus: that's exactly what I was wondering

DoFP was not confusing. It was rather straight forward; the only problem is that it left some unanswered questions (Kitty's random powers, whether or not Wolverine has adamantium in the future, etc.).

@lateralus: True, good point this among other things I wondered like also

1. How did Wolverine magically get his claws back? At the end of Wolverine, he lost his claws and went bone claw yet still had some adamantium within the rest of his body so did magneto pull them into his claws again? Did he go back to get more liquid adamantium put back in his hands? Someone had to help him obviously, or if it just "grew back" some how into his hands that is kind of a copout imo.

2. At which point during the new timeline that Wolverine changes being sent back, does it take effect? If he changed the first 3 movies, than none of that happened right? Does that mean they still fought Magneto? Did the events of X1 and X2 happen? Obviously the 3rd didn't...but they don't really go into "which point"

3. Why didn't logan remember what happened from the 70's until the new timeline in the future? He had memories of the previous life/continuity he lived, yet changed for everyone else so to me this made no sense.

4. Originally when wolverine got his claws in the past it was due to volunteering for it via Stryker doing experiments on him, so why would mystique be posing as him and take Wolverine? How does she even know who he is and that he'll have metal claws?

Just so many things I thought either weren't explained or a bit confusing.

As for convergence, DC pretty much gave everyone a mind screw with old and new continuity. To sum it up, some worlds "evolved" from the original versions, yet at the same time the New 52 Prime Earth still exists, so does all of past DC continuity, infinite universes and the possibility of muliple multiverses. The latter and very notion of "multiple multiverses" alone is a bit of a "wait...wait?" kind of moment lol I just prefer to agree to the notion of DC has the old, current and future continuity back in tact that we all know and are infinite universes/multiverses lol. This also raised lots of questions with flashpoint's universe, post crisis, zero hour etc, etc but I just see it as it all happened lol and isn't erased pretty much what the writers confirmed.

@jedixman: Well the adamantium thing isn't really unanswered. He has it.

When was that confirmed? We never saw him pop the claws after he woke up in the new timeline.

@fallingcliffs: Here is answers that I actually can give.

1. A lot of possibilities, but really an issue of no consequence to the story.

2. The events of X1, X2, X3, The Wolverine (except for the WW2 scene), and most of XMO:W did not happen. Only First Class, DoFP, and scenes before 1973 in any of the X movies are relevant.

3. Because Logan mind finally caught up in time to when he was sent back.

4. I don't know, I expect we will get our answer to this one in X-Men: Apocalypse

I think he was talking in the future timeline with the sentinels. In The Wolverine, Wolverine gets his adamantium claws cut off and they eventually heal back to being bone claws. In DoFP while on the table, he stabs Kitty with adamantium claws.

@jedixman: When he got pulled up from the water. and Striker Mystique found him, it was implied that the same events occur, but just with little twists. Iceman and Kitty, The Brotherhood aren't with the X-men. That kind of thing.

Yes, but it is never confirmed that Wolverine has adamantium. If anything, showing that Stryker didn't get Wolverine leans more toward the idea that he never got the claws in the first place. The infrastructure for that is not in place, because Stryker and Trask did not have the same leverage that they otherwise would.

No. Because Wolverine never joined the Weapon X program, how do we know he still has adamantium claws in the future? It's a different timeline. Mystique pretends to be Stryker when he is taken from the lake, but as far as we know, Wolverine might not actually go with the real Stryker. We don't know if he ever gets adamantium claws in the first place.

I'd like to know how he got his claws back between Wolverine and DoFP, though. But that's a different unanswered question (easily fixed by just saying... *shrug* Magneto put them back for reasons).

No no no. You have to remember one of thew major themes of the movie was that time is like a river. You can disrupt the path without changing the direction. Wolverine's body would have been left in the 70s, that is ample time for him to eventually get adamantium.

Also just think logically about what the writers would do. Those claws are trademark to his character and they wouldn't to spend a whole other movie giving them back to him. At the end of the movie, he has the claws, even if they don't show it, bro.

All I am saying is that it was never explicitly made clear. The fact that Wolverine did not pop his claws in the new timeline is... interesting.

@jedixman: And my focal point is that is was implied. The reason he didn't pop his claws is because it wouldn't have been necessary. Making his claws pop takes extra filming time (and money) So it's not exactly a simple task either. If the situation doesn't really call for it..he/they won't.

1. I suppose most fans can live without the explanation, it just seems like a minor plothole to me that should at least be addressed at some point hope they do.

2. Ok, I can see that making sense though to Wolverine he still has the memories of the original timeline/life apparently, he just forgot what happened from when he got picked up from drowning(when mystique got him) to that new timeline point in the future(the end of XMDOFP) I guess Xavier filled him in on what happened since he changed the timeline.

3. Ahh ok, I take it the latter part of my last point covers that as well since he forgot and Professor X said "come with me" as if to say he'll fill him in on the rest too.

4. Hope so for sure, hopefully they'll cover the bit about the claws to. It's not a HUGE deal I admit but it's also something that can take 2 minutes to answer also I think.

And my point is that that is not good enough. We know that some things did change - some of which is rather significant, like... I don't know... death. If the events of X2 did not happen, then who is to say that Wolverine going through the bonding process did? "Implied" is not good enough.

Xmen confuse me a little but Convergence confused me even more

@jedixman: You'll see bro.

See what? That it still wasn't confirmed in DoFP?

Regardless of what happens, my point remains that it was still not confirmed in DoFP, and is therefore a loose end in my eyes. Just because a loose end becomes resolved does not mean that it never was a loose end. My point stands, and will stand even if it is shown that he has adamantium claws.

@jedixman: I would say that since it was implied, it was confirmed. It wasn't explicitly stated that he has his claws but there were heavy implications in the movie about fate and how it can't be changed. That alone is enough to assume the adamantium remains.

The purpose of DoFP was to undo all the continuity errors and bad writing. That leaves the claws and other plot points. But hey there's no need to get adamant about all this. It's no big deal, right?

Implied =/= confirmed. Words like "assume" and "implication" do not belong in the contest of confirmation.

Not really. He got his claws in Origins, which has been made non-canon. We don't know what is and what is not canon.

Please remember that it was you who initially challenged my point:

I have no problem with remaining adamant, and clearly neither do you.

@immovableray: @jedixman: Gentlemen, gentlemen, let's listen to this fine song.

@jedixman:I cannot stress enough how relaxed I am right now. This is only a discussion man. :D It's all good.

As am I, nor did I say anything to the contrary. I can be serious and relaxed at the same time.

Direct confirmations aren't always necessary though. Assumptions are fine when they are fair and logical. Mine is. Him not having claw just wouldn't make any contextual sense.

Of course it makes sense. Stryker did not capture Wolverine; as far as we know, Wolverine never entered the weapon X program. Since Jean is alive, we also know that they did not go to Alkali Lake.

We kind of do. There were heavy implications that certain things are set in stone. Like Scott and Jean. A line similar to this is stated in the movie. Some things don't change.

Things you are born with might not change, as with your analogy. Wolverine's claws were added - he was not born with them. They are something that can absolutely change, since Stryker's entire infrastructure is probably different.

Also, Jean being alive was a revelation. That event changed - why wouldn't everything surrounding Weapon X change? Yes, Jean's death is tied to Weapon X. They went there because of Stryker, who may or may not have a high standing in government.

I used the word adamant as a joke (get it lol?). I'm not being entirely stern in this discussion, bro.

There was nothing in context that would convey that. Adding "bro" does not make something jovial.

:D OK great. Cus for a second there I thought it was heated or something. Like I was reading thinking that users were going to think I was trying to be hostile And then you said I challenged you lol. Whew. But are you going to respond to what I said or was that it?

I am always stern.

Well, you did challenge me, then you made an attempt to back off by simply stating:

You'll see bro.

Which really makes no sense, since further sequels will not dissuade me.

But are you going to respond to what I said or was that it?

I edited my previous comment.

@immovableray:

Also, regardless of our discussion, understand that the fact that we are debating this means that it was not clear enough to be considered "confirmed." It also clearly wasn't enough for many other people, including myself, who ask the same question. Other media sites have discussed things like this:

WGTC:

What happens next might depend on a couple of things. Is Stryker dead, and does Mystique plan on fulfilling his plans for Weapon X and giving Wolverine his adamantium skeleton? It’s hard to say,

@jedixman said:

@immovableray:

The fact that we are even discussing this means that it was ambiguous enough to be considered a "loose end." It clearly was not explicitly stated in the movie. If you can't say that it was without using words like "assume" or "implied," then it clearly was not concrete.

I am not saying that he does not have claws. My original statement said that it was a loose end / unanswered question as to whether or not he did.

DoFP was not confusing. It was rather straight forward; the only problem is that it left some unanswered questions (Kitty's random powers, whether or not Wolverine has adamantium in the future, etc.).

And therefore there is really nothing that you can say to that can convince me of that unless we see him pop claws in DoFP... which we don't and we won't. On the other hand, I really don't need to convince you, since the fact that you must use words like "assume" or even use an argument at all means that there is not clear and explicit evidence. The argument is that it was a loose end because it was not explicitly confirmed, which it is. To deny that it was ambiguous at all is to be ignorant as to what ambiguous even means. So I have no reason to continue this.

I stand by what I said, and I always will. You have not and will not say anything that will change the fact that it qualifies as a loose end.

@immovableray:

Clearly it is ambiguous if it remains unclear for many,

It does not matter. This is a pointless debate; clearly, you are set in your understanding. I know I am right, and I don't need to convince you.

@jedixman: It's not ambiguous that evolution is a fact, yet many many people fail to understand it. That's the same thing that happened here. It's not ambiguous if I give reasons backing it up. You just don't want it to be true because that means you will have been mistaken.

One of us is right, but I'm the only one giving valid reasoning. But at the end of the discussion I really just want to know: Can you feel it in your bones?!

Damn that's a hell of a read, good stuff!

Anyone else?