What is free will?

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dshipp17

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@dshipp17 said:

@willpayton said:

@dshipp17 said:

@willpayton said:

@dshipp17 said:

I have to give great credence to the concept of God the Creator: all living systems are so well developed to their environment that it's simply ridiculous to think otherwise; thus, you're wishing that otherwise was the case (e.g. things just conveniently formed to fit an environment), but, again, wishing will never make it so. And free will is a complicated process outside of creatures being created to adapt to its given environment; free will is the very concept of a consciousness; some people may claim they have no consciousness, but, free will, nonetheless remains at play to decide who will be judged for Heaven and who will be judged for Hell; people like you, who want so much for people to really believe that you're more than confident in what you say, is very much like that person claiming that they have no consciousness; but, on judgement day, suddenly, that non-existent consciousness appears to ask not to be judged harshly (e.g. think about it, even Ted Buddy and Timothy McVeigh got weak in the knees, while being led to the electric chair).

If you're talking about evolution, then your premise is wrong. Animals are well developed for their environment because of how evolution works, not because of random chance. There's nothing "convenient" about it. There's no need to have a supernatural explanation because evolution explains how things got to be the way they are. You should understand evolution before you criticize it. Otherwise it's just a strawman.

Well, enlighten me; what part of evolution do I appear to be going astray? There's an environment and something there that is living that has to survive in that environment; so, explain how you perceive evolution to work? By the way, below is a scientific article to shake some of your perceptions about our sides "lack of knowledge" of evolution:

...

Sorry, but I'm not going to read all that. I read the first part and skimmed the rest. This is hardly a "scientific article" as you claim. I suggest that if you want to know about evolution that you read actual scientifically-based articles and not Creationist ones.

As far as where you're going astray with evolution, it's the part where you imply that organisms are designed to suit their environment, and that evolution doesnt have an explanation for this. Evolution is actually not very difficult to understand... but it does require that you learn how it actually works.

I seriously wonder, are you sure what a scientific article is? You need to separate your clear phobia against creationism, and read the contents of this particular scientific article, thoroughly; the article makes references to scientific journals; therefore, it's a scientific article, it just rebuts the information that was misleading the public about where science really is in the area of evolution.

The Atheists have come along and co-opted the Sciences; apparently you can't be a scientist if you're not also an Atheist, and the most spectacular thing is that people actually buy it. And then these same people, (your average joe Atheist) talk about the brainwashing and dogmatism of fundamentalist religion. It's a joke.

I completely agree.

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MatteoPG

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@netshyster: luckily this dichotomy is being reduced lately, I think. I am an atheist and a scientist, but I have colleagues that are believers and we never ever clash on something so personal. Faith doesn't have anything to do with science, they operate on two different levels, and intelligent people know this.

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deactivated-097092725

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This thread hurt my mind.

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Wardemon32

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@willpayton:

Ofcourse that wouldn't be free will. That's not much of a good comparison being that you're the one moving the coin and not the coin itself. The coin can't act by itself while the robot can. There's nothing behind that coin besides metal.

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Jokerpoker

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free will

noun

1.

the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

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willpayton

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@willpayton:

Ofcourse that wouldn't be free will. That's not much of a good comparison being that you're the one moving the coin and not the coin itself. The coin can't act by itself while the robot can. There's nothing behind that coin besides metal.

The coin acts by itself as much as the robot. A human starts the coin moving, and same thing with the robot. The coin acts according to the laws of physics, and same thing with the robot. The trajectory of the coin can be predetermined if you have enough knowledge of the starting conditions, and same thing with the robot.

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Cream_God

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Wardemon32

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#58  Edited By Wardemon32

@wardemon32 said:

@willpayton:

Ofcourse that wouldn't be free will. That's not much of a good comparison being that you're the one moving the coin and not the coin itself. The coin can't act by itself while the robot can. There's nothing behind that coin besides metal.

The coin acts by itself as much as the robot. A human starts the coin moving, and same thing with the robot. The coin acts according to the laws of physics, and same thing with the robot. The trajectory of the coin can be predetermined if you have enough knowledge of the starting conditions, and same thing with the robot.

The human doesn't move the robot; the robot moves itself. The robot is simply deciding which way to move while the coin doesn't have that option. It movement is based off of how you flip the coin. The robots movement is based off of what obstacles are in their way and what way they choose.

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willpayton

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@willpayton said:

@wardemon32 said:

@willpayton:

Ofcourse that wouldn't be free will. That's not much of a good comparison being that you're the one moving the coin and not the coin itself. The coin can't act by itself while the robot can. There's nothing behind that coin besides metal.

The coin acts by itself as much as the robot. A human starts the coin moving, and same thing with the robot. The coin acts according to the laws of physics, and same thing with the robot. The trajectory of the coin can be predetermined if you have enough knowledge of the starting conditions, and same thing with the robot.

The human doesn't move the robot; the robot moves itself. The robot is simply deciding which way to move while the coin doesn't have that option. It movement is based off of how you flip the coin. The robots movement is based off of what obstacles are in their way and what way they choose.

The human created the robot and pretty much set all the starting conditions. Given that a simple robot (as is the one we're talking about) acts as simply a matter of its programming and physics, I fail to see the essential difference to a coin tossed into the air. Each is just a simple system set into motion by a human.

The problem here is your choice of words. A robot does not "decide" anything, since it doesnt have a brain or even any complex programming (in this example). And as far as "moving itself"... all it is is a bunch of parts that do what physics tells them to do, same as a coin.

And, not that it matters, but a coin's motion is also based off of what obstacles are in its way.

Wow... I cant believe i'm wasting time arguing that a simple machine with a random number generator doesnt have "free will".

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MonsterStomp

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Did you guys see that ginormous comment?

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deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

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Everything happens for a scientific reason. It doesn't matter what you do under your free will because there's a reason for everything. Under the right circumstances we could all have "free will" or we could not have it. Just depends.

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OverLordArthas

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free will

noun

1.

the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

True but it must not be construed as to making irrational actions.

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Jokerpoker

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SuperDrummer

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#64  Edited By SuperDrummer

It's an illusion

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kuonphobos

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@matteopg said:

@netshyster: luckily this dichotomy is being reduced lately, I think. I am an atheist and a scientist, but I have colleagues that are believers and we never ever clash on something so personal. Faith doesn't have anything to do with science, they operate on two different levels, and intelligent people know this.

As a person of faith I completely agree with this. The difference lies in assumptions about the nature of reality. This means both groups can value the scientific method and both groups can walk quite a way along the same path. It only means that every now and again the two will disagree when it comes to the application of their fundamentally differing views of reality.

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SpitfirePanda

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If you want to see a huge contrast between free will and a lack there of, compare Kim Jong Un to the people he rules.

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dshipp17

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If you want to see a huge contrast between free will and a lack there of, compare Kim Jong Un to the people he rules.

I completely agree with this example.

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Erik

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Today, I've just had one of the dumbest arguements I've ever had with someone on this website. I made a comment about free will and apparently I was wrong.

The other person seems to think that free will is the ability to make choices like walk, talk, etc...

My arguement is that the meaning of free will is to have the ability to make actions without being condemned to hell whether it is good or bad.

What do you think?

Free will doesn't have anything to do with condemnation. So yes, you were incorrect. Free will is self-determination. The ability to act without the constraints of fate or a predetermined destiny. Whether or not we have free will is an entirely different argument but as far as the definition and meaning of free will, you and the anonymous user were both incorrect.

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Wolverine008

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#69  Edited By Wolverine008

Ifind these philosophy discussions depressing honestly.

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OverLordArthas

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GoldGoblin

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#71  Edited By GoldGoblin
No Caption Provided

WHY DID YOU DO THIS TO ME?!

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willpayton

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Sam Harris on free will, and why it's an illusion. Long speech, but really interesting and worth watching all the way through.

Loading Video...

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HeroUp2112

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Don't think I don't understand all the theological and scientific reasons given here, but I think this might have been a little over complicated.

First core question I see being at issue here. Do we exist? (No one's directly said it, but we have to know we exist to figure out if we know what to do with ourselves...and by extension any robots we might make) My considered opinion is that we must exist. The other end of the argument is: Start by assuming we don't exist and see how far that really gets us.

Second core question. Do we have free will? Be it from our own theological, social, or legal standpoint we all know what the consequences of the choices we make are. We all choose to act, or not, on these choices.

Might seem a little simplistic, but I'm going Occam's Razor on this bad boy. ;)

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Nerise

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The ability to will for free

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willpayton

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@heroup2112: Well, I know I exist, but I'm not sure about the rest of you. =)

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HighAccuser

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In layman terms you have the conscious decision making to do whatever you want. Usually based on your personality or sometimes course of action.

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Just_Banter

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Mortein

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Free will is an illusion that I, the consciousness, am the thinker of my thoughts.

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deactivated-5988def3424a7

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Fate doesn't decide your future actions, you do with full control over these decisions.

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Zetsu-San

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And on the whole thing about free will just being an illusion, I'll have to say I disagree. If I create a robot with an ultrasonic sensor and let it roam about but program to turn in random directions then that robot has free will. If I were to go into the future before the robot is even created and then go back in the past and create that same exact robot then I would know where that robot will turn before it even makes a decision. I haven't destroyed your free will; I just know what you are going to do before you do it. I can set up multiple obstacle courses for that robot but I would still always know where it will go becuase I has already seen the event. And no matter what I do an event, that I know of, must happen.

Too bad that that's not possible.

It does, because it means your actions are predetermined even if you think it's your decision.

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Zetsu-San

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#81  Edited By Zetsu-San

To be honest. The concept of free will in itself is something I have a hard time wrapping my head around. I like the idea of it, yet more often than not I question whether I actually have it. There's always been a bit of a disconnect between my thoughts and the physical world, like my soul was never tethered properly. I have always felt like an observer in my own body. Obviously my inner thoughts must have some influence on my actions, otherwise I wouldn't be speaking my mind the way I am now; and yet even now, my actions don't truly feel like my own, and I don't really know why I am bothering to share this with anyone (I certainly don't share it with people in real life...). In fact, nothing that happens to me ever truly feels like it's happening to me. Whether it's intense physical pain, or something positive like a first kiss; it always feels... fake... It's hard to get excited or upset about anything, when the world feels like it's on a television set with constant interference. The more lights, sounds, or smells there are the worse the signal gets. Sometimes I wonder if one day it will just drop completely and the world will disappear as if it never existed in the first place. I used to assume everyone was like this.

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Zetsu-San

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Fate doesn't decide your future actions, you do with full control over these decisions.

But... How would you know one way or the other?

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deactivated-5988def3424a7

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@zetsumoto: I feel that everything I'm doing is because I want it to happen for myself. I just live life assuming this way because there's nothing indicating that something extraordinary is causing my life to head down this path. The concept is hard to understand sometimes, but I don't think the issue of whether free will is real or not is not an important issue because either way, I know I'm a person that meant to do big things and I don't believe that anyone would be predestined to do bad things. That's why more likely than not, free will exists but I just live life assuming it's there.

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TheDandyMan

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The next film in the Free Willy series.

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Hypnos0929

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Free will is a lie.

Because we are humans we believe that we have something special. It's not true, if you believe in God then you'll agree he gave us free will. Well in reality he gave us a single choice, which was pretty simple, "do as I say or go to hell and be hurt with unimaginable pain for more than 5000 years". That's not free will, free will would imply two choices with equal consequences that you can choose from.

Along with this problem Free Will completely contradicts the idea of God. God can't know everything, and be able to do anything and give people the ability to choose. He'd have to know all timelines possible, which would be infinite number of them.

Honestly free will has to many flaws. If you've seen the movie 13 sins then you'll notice that the "crazy" man said that maybe .1% of humanity has the actual ability to choose, that'd make them the equivalent to gods, they must get bored.

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darkdetective27

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The next film in the Free Willy series.

Lol

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HeroUp2112

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#87  Edited By HeroUp2112

@heroup2112: Well, I know I exist, but I'm not sure about the rest of you. =)

Tell you what, I'll just ride your coat tails. ;)

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willpayton

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Did anybody watch the Sam Harris video? I thought it was great and really thought provoking. I cant really see a flaw in his argument.

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BlackLegRaph

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@netshyster: I have to say it is quite disconcerting to see people make comparisons and by default equate "atheism" with "science". It is a really puzzling but still understandable thing because claiming the "intelligence" route is a sure way to validate your beliefs and claim the other person is deluded.

I have to say it is also amusing to see the dogmatization of science through this process though.

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BlackLegRaph

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#90  Edited By BlackLegRaph

Free will is simply the ability to act at one's own discretion. It doesn't mean there will be no consequences. It doesn't mean that someone in the future knowing what you did in the past means you never had free will, and neither does it mean the ability to do anything outside of what you are capable of.

Many tend to deny free will on the basis of those flawed premises and conclusions. You will never see these same people deny it in practice though, because they hold others responsible for their actions, which is why just about every place has a rule of law and consequences for breaking them.

Basically, free will denial is something some people pay lip service to but obviously indicate acceptance of in action.

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Black_Arrow

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@willpayton: Thanks for sharing that video with Sam Harris. Personally I am shocked, while I shared many similar views on that manner, I felt that I never applied them to myself but I did apply them to others. And this made me question this things to myself. He puts very good arguments in the video and they are completely solid. I guess I am going to buy his book now.

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echostarlord117

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I am convinced that we do not have free will and that if we do, it's very limited and more or less redundant.

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willpayton

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#93  Edited By willpayton

@willpayton: Thanks for sharing that video with Sam Harris. Personally I am shocked, while I shared many similar views on that manner, I felt that I never applied them to myself but I did apply them to others. And this made me question this things to myself. He puts very good arguments in the video and they are completely solid. I guess I am going to buy his book now.

Glad you liked the video. Yeah, Harris made a solid argument there. The dude has a way of always sounding so calm and rational when he talks, and it's hard to fault his logic.

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jumpstart55

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#94  Edited By jumpstart55
  • Its willpower you don't have to pay for.
  • As opposed to the phony kind you get from suspect late night infomercials.
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willpayton

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Free will is simply the ability to act at one's own discretion. It doesn't mean there will be no consequences. It doesn't mean that someone in the future knowing what you did in the past means you never had free will, and neither does it mean the ability to do anything outside of what you are capable of.

Many tend to deny free will on the basis of those flawed premises and conclusions. You will never see these same people deny it in practice though, because they hold others responsible for their actions, which is why just about every place has a rule of law and consequences for breaking them.

Basically, free will denial is something some people pay lip service to but obviously indicate acceptance of in action.

You're confusing free will with accountability. Free will is just an illusion. We have no more choice in what we think or do than a machine does in doing what it was built to do. All actions are either random or determined by previous conditions. Random actions and thoughts would not constitute free will, and neither would pre-determined ones. And, there's no combination of the two that gives you free will. This is basically the argument that Sam Harris lays out in the video.

But having no free will doesnt mean we cant have morality or laws against things.

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HeroUp2112

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#96  Edited By HeroUp2112

It's what I have and YOU can have too, for just TWELVE easy payments of $49.99. DON'T WAIT! Act now!!

OPERATORS ARE STANDING BY!

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willpayton

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It's what I have and YOU can have too, for just TWELVE easy payments of $49.99. DON'T WAIT! Act now!!

OPERATORS ARE STANDING BY!

Image result for zoidberg animated gif crafty consumer

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HeroUp2112

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@willpayton:

You're payment has been received and your free wills will be delivered within seven to ten business days.

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GIliad_

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A lie

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deactivated-5a2b0053414c5

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@dshipp17 said:
@willpayton said:
@dshipp17 said:

I have to give great credence to the concept of God the Creator: all living systems are so well developed to their environment that it's simply ridiculous to think otherwise; thus, you're wishing that otherwise was the case (e.g. things just conveniently formed to fit an environment), but, again, wishing will never make it so. And free will is a complicated process outside of creatures being created to adapt to its given environment; free will is the very concept of a consciousness; some people may claim they have no consciousness, but, free will, nonetheless remains at play to decide who will be judged for Heaven and who will be judged for Hell; people like you, who want so much for people to really believe that you're more than confident in what you say, is very much like that person claiming that they have no consciousness; but, on judgement day, suddenly, that non-existent consciousness appears to ask not to be judged harshly (e.g. think about it, even Ted Buddy and Timothy McVeigh got weak in the knees, while being led to the electric chair).

If you're talking about evolution, then your premise is wrong. Animals are well developed for their environment because of how evolution works, not because of random chance. There's nothing "convenient" about it. There's no need to have a supernatural explanation because evolution explains how things got to be the way they are. You should understand evolution before you criticize it. Otherwise it's just a strawman.

Well, enlighten me; what part of evolution do I appear to be going astray? There's an environment and something there that is living that has to survive in that environment; so, explain how you perceive evolution to work? By the way, below is a scientific article to shake some of your perceptions about our sides "lack of knowledge" of evolution:

Cosmos Episode 2: "Mindless Evolution" Has All the Answers -- If You Don't Think About It Too Deeply

Casey Luskin March 17, 2014 2:22 AM

With more eye-popping CGI and new splendid scenes of Neil deGrasse Tyson touring the solar system in his high-tech spaceship, Cosmos Episode 2 weighed in Sunday night on some of life's most profound questions. Toward the end of the episode, Tyson honestly admits, "Nobody knows how life got started," and even says, "We're not afraid to admit what we don't know," since "the only shame is to pretend we know all the answers." By this late stage of the episode, however, that came off as a nervously inserted qualification since the rest of the episode had so vigorously argued that what Tyson calls the "transforming power" of "mindless evolution" or "unguided evolution" indeed has all the answers to how life evolved on Earth. Except, that is, for a few cases where evolution was guided by human breeders, through "artificial selection."

Cosmos Episode 2 structures its argument much as Charles Darwin did in the Origin of Species. The opening scenes discuss how human breeders artificially selected many different dog breeds from wolf-like ancestors, including many popular breeds that "were created in only the last few centuries." The argument is simple -- and it's the same type of argument that Darwin made: "If artificial selection can work such profound changes in only 10 or 15 thousand years, what can natural selection do operating over billions of years?" The answer, Tyson tells us, is "all the beauty and diversity of life." In other words, Tyson wants you to believe that natural selection provides all the answers for everything since life arose. Just as he did in Episode 1, Tyson has overstated his case. The great evolutionary biologist Ernst Mayr explains precisely why Tyson is wrong:

Some enthusiasts have claimed that natural selection can do anything. This is not true. Even though "natural selection is daily and hourly scrutinizing, throughout the world, every variation even the slightest," as Darwin (1859:84) has stated, it is nevertheless evident that there are definite limits to the effectiveness of selection.1

Aside from the fact that artificial selection involves intelligent agents rather than unguided processes, Mayr makes one of the most important points in the context of artificial selection of dogs, for human breeders consistently hit limits in just how far they can breed dogs. The textbook Explore Evolution: The Arguments For and Against Neo-Darwinism explains:

Intense programs of breeding (and inbreeding) frequently increase the organism's susceptibility to disease, and often concentrate defective traits. Breeders working with English bulldogs have strived to produce dogs with large heads. They have succeeded. These bulldogs now have such enormous heads that puppies sometimes have to be delivered by Cesarean section. Newfoundlands and Great Danes are both bred for large size. They now have bodies too large for their hearts and can suddenly drop dead from cardiac arrest. Many Great Danes develop bone cancer, as well. Breeders have tried to maximize the sloping appearance of a German Shepherd's hind legs. As a result, many German Shepherds develop hip dysplasia, a crippling condition that makes it hard for them to walk. When breeders try to force a species beyond its limits, they often create more defects than desirable traits. These defects impose limits on the amount of change that breeders can ultimately produce.

Darwin's theory states that the unguided force of natural selection is supposed to be able to do what the intelligent breeder can do. But even a process of careful, intentional selection encounters limits that neither time nor the efforts of human breeders can overcome. Consequently, critics argue that by the logic of Darwin's own analogy, the power of natural selection is also limited.

Darwin's theory requires that species exhibit a tremendous elasticity -- or capacity to change. Critics point out that this is not what the evidence from breeding experiments shows.2

These aren't just talking points from Darwin-critics. The same is heard from leading evolutionary biologists who say inconvenient things that Cosmos was content to ignore:

The following are three major areas of misconception among the Neo-Darwinists... Artificial selection on quantitative traits was taken as a model of the evolutionary process. It was easily shown, in agriculture or in the laboratory, that populations of most organisms contain sufficient additive genetic variance to obtain a response to selection on quantitative traits, such as measures of body size or increased yield of agriculturally valuable products such as milk in dairy cattle or grain size in food plants. Generalizing from this experience, it was assumed that natural populations are endowed with essentially unlimited additive genetic variance, implying that any sort of selection imposed by environmental changes will encounter abundant genetic variation on which to act. Moreover, this model was extended to evolutionary time as well as ecological time. This way of thinking ignored the substantial evidence from selection experiments that the response to selection on any trait essentially comes to a halt after a number of generations as the genetic variance for the trait in question is depleted; thereafter, further progress depends on the introduction of new variants either through outcrossing or new mutations (Falconer, 1981).3

Ernst Mayr concurs, citing "[t]he limited potential of the genotype" which shows "severe limits to further evolution":

The existing genetic organization of an animal or plant sets severe limits to its further evolution. As Weismann expressed it, no bird can ever evolve into a mammal, nor a beetle into a butterfly. Amphibians have been unable to develop a lineage that is successful in salt water. We marvel at the fact that mammals have been able to develop flight (bats) and aquatic adaptation (whales and seals), but there are many other ecological niches that mammals have been unable to occupy. There are, for instance, severe limits on size, and no amount of selection has allowed mammals to become smaller than a pygmy shrew and the bumblebee bat, or allow flying birds to grow beyond a limiting weight.4

We cannot simply assert that evolution can do just "anything" or "all" we want it to -- there are both genetic and physiological limits to how far breeders can change organisms. If we are to take artificial selection as an analogy for what can happen in the real world, shouldn't this suggest there are also limits to evolution?

I'm sure Tyson would reply that we can overcome genetic barriers to further evolution through mutations, which provide new raw materials for evolution to act upon. According to Tyson, mutations "entirely random," and can cause changes like transforming a bear's fur color from brown to "white," like "polar bears," giving it a camouflage advantage in a snowy environment. (Technically, Cosmos got this small detail wrong, since the hairs of polar bears are transparent, not white.) "No breeder gathered these changes," he tells us, since, "the environment itself selects them."

Fair enough. While we might disagree with Tyson that natural selection is "the most revolutionary concept in the history of science," no ID proponent denies that natural selection is an important idea that can explain many things. Changing the color of a bear's coat from brown to white is probably one of them -- it's a small-scale, microevolutionary change. The difference between ID proponents and evolutionists like Tyson is that ID proponents acknowledge that natural selection is a real force in nature, but we don't just unconditionally grant it the power to do all things. Instead, we test forces like natural selection, and find that there are limits to the amount of change it can effect in populations.

For example, after saying the "tree of life" (more on that shortly) is "three and a half billion years old," Tyson just asserts that this provides "plenty of time" for the evolution of life's vast complexity. Is this assertion true? We've heard that "plenty of time" claim before -- in fact I recently rebutted that precise phrase and argument when Ken Miller made it in his textbook.

Tyson's main argument that selection and mutation can evolve anything focuses on the evolution of the eye. Here, he attacks intelligent design by name, noting that some have argued that life "must be the work of an intelligent designer" that "created each of these species separately." I've never heard of an ID proponent who requires that every single species was created separately, so that's a straw man. Tyson calls the human eye a "masterpiece" of complexity, and claims it "poses no challenge to evolution by natural selection." But do we really know this is true?

Darwinian evolution tends to work fine when one small change or mutation provides a selective advantage, or as Darwin put it, when an organ can evolve via "numerous, successive, slight modifications." If a structure cannot evolve via "numerous, successive, slight modifications," Darwin said, his theory "would absolutely break down." Jerry Coyne essentially concurs: "It is indeed true that natural selection cannot build any feature in which intermediate steps do not confer a net benefit on the organism."5 So are there structures that would require multiple steps to provide an advantage, where intermediate steps might not confer a net benefit on the organism? If you listen to Tyson's argument carefully, I think he let slip that there are.

In his account of the evolution of the eye, Tyson says that "a microscopic copying error" gave a protein the ability to be sensitive to light. He doesn't explain how that happened. Indeed, Sean B. Carroll cautions us to "not be fooled" by the "simple construction and appearance" of supposedly simple light-sensitive eyes, since they "are built with and use many of the ingredients used in fancier eyes."6 Tyson doesn't worry about explaining how any of those complex ingredients arose at the biochemical level. What's more interesting is what Tyson says next: "Another mutation caused it [a bacterium with the light-sensitive protein] to flee intense light."

This raises an interesting question: It's nice to have a light-sensitive protein, but unless the sensitivity to light is linked to some behavioral response, then how would the sensitivity provide any advantage? Only once a behavioral response also evolved -- say, to turn towards or away from the light -- can the light-sensitive protein provide an advantage. So if a light-sensitive protein evolved, why did it persist until the behavioral response evolved as well? There's no good answer to that question, because vision is fundamentally a multi-component, and thus a multi-mutation, feature. Multiple components -- both visual apparatus and the encoded behavioral response -- are necessary for vision to provide an advantage. It's likely that these components would require many mutations. Thus, we have a trait where an intermediate stage -- say, a light-sensitive protein all by itself -- would not confer a net advantage on the organism. This is where Darwinian evolution tends to get stuck. Indeed, ID research is finding that there are many traits that require many mutations before providing an advantage. For starters, protein scientist Douglas Axe has published mutational sensitivity tests on enzymes in the Journal of Molecular Biology and found that functional protein sequences may be as rare as 1 in 1077.7 That extreme rarity makes it highly unlikely that chance mutations alone could find the rare amino acid sequences that yield functional proteins:

According to Axe's research, most enzymes sit at Point A, high atop their fitness landscape, and many amino acids must be present all at once to get high enzyme functionality. This suggests that many mutations must be present in order to find the right sequences that yield stable protein folds, and thus functional enzymes. I'm sure producers of Cosmos would reply that the "billions and billions" and of years of evolution provide "plenty of time" even for such unlikely events. But unless we test this claim, it's a naïve response. In 2010, Axe investigated how many mutations could arise in a multimutation feature given the entire history of the earth. He published population genetics calculations indicating that even when we grant generous assumptions favoring a Darwinian process, molecular adaptations requiring more than six mutations before yielding any advantage would be extremely unlikely to arise in the 4.5 billion year history of the Earth.8 The following year, Axe published research with developmental biologist Ann Gauger describing the results of their experiments seeking to convert one bacterial enzyme into another closely related enzyme -- one in the same gene family! That is the kind of conversion that evolutionists claim can easily happen. For this case they found that the conversion would require a minimum of at least seven simultaneous changes9, exceeding the six-mutation-limit that Axe had previously established as a boundary of what Darwinian evolution is likely to accomplish in bacteria. Because this conversion is thought to be relatively simple, it suggests that converting one similar type of protein into another by "mindless evolution" might be highly unlikely. In other experiments led by Gauger and biologist Ralph Seelke of the University of Wisconsin, Superior, their research team broke a gene in the bacterium E. coli required for synthesizing the amino acid tryptophan. When the bacteria's genome was broken in just one place, random mutations were capable of "fixing" the gene. But even when only two mutations were required to restore function, Darwinian evolution got stuck, apparently unable to restore full function.10 Again, "mindless evolution" couldn't overcome the need to produce multi-mutation features -- those that require multiple mutations before providing an advantage. Theoretical research into population genetics corroborates these empirical findings. Michael Behe and David Snoke have performed computer simulations and theoretical calculations showing that the Darwinian evolution of a functional bond between two proteins would be highly unlikely to occur in populations of multicellular organisms under reasonable evolutionary timescales when it required multiple mutations before functioning. They published research in Protein Science that found: The fact that very large population sizes -- 109 or greater -- are required to build even a minimal MR feature requiring two nucleotide alterations within 108 generations by the processes described in our model, and that enormous population sizes are required for more complex features or shorter times, seems to indicate that the mechanism of gene duplication and point mutation alone would be ineffective, at least for multicellular diploid species, because few multicellular species reach the required population sizes.11

In other words, in multicellular species, Darwinian evolution would be unlikely to produce features requiring more than just two mutations before providing any advantage on any reasonable timescale or population size.

In 2008, Behe's critics sought to refute him in the journal Genetics with a paper titled "Waiting for Two Mutations: With Applications to Regulatory Sequence Evolution and the Limits of Darwinian Evolution." But Durrett and Schmidt found that to obtain only two specific mutations via Darwinian evolution "for humans with a much smaller effective population size, this type of change would take > 100 million years." The critics admitted this was "very unlikely to occur on a reasonable timescale."12

What does this all mean? For one thing, it means Cosmos is wrong to assert we know that there is "plenty of time" for the "mindless evolution" of complex structures to take place. Both theoretical and empirical research suggest there are very good reasons why producing many of the new proteins and enzymes entailed by eye-evolution, and probably many other evolutionary pathways, would require the generation of multi-mutation features that could not arise via "mindless evolution" in the 3.5 billion year history of life on Earth. For another, it means Cosmos is pretending to have all the answers about how life evolved, when in fact it doesn't. And thus, as as David Berlinski has pointed out, it means that evolutionary biologists are very far away from explaining the evolution of the eye.

Evolutionary Apologetics and the Tree of Life

The second episode of Cosmos showcased quite a lot of evolutionary apologetics. What do I mean by that? I mean attempts to persuade people of both evolutionary scientific views and larger materialistic evolutionary beliefs, not just by the force of the evidence, but by rhetoric and emotion, and especially by leaving out important contrary arguments and evidence. This episode focused its evolutionary apologetics on the tree of life.

Tyson states that we have an "understandable human need" to think that we're special, and thus "a central premise of traditional belief is that we were created separately from the other animals." If you believe that, then you should know that it's Neil deGrasse Tyson's intention to talk you out of that "traditional belief," and he's going to use beautiful animation to do it, while ignoring explanations like "common design" and otherwise misstating the evidence. This episode shows a beautifully animated "tree of life," saying "science reveals that all life on earth is one," and that "accepting our kinship with other animals" is "solid science." But it's not enough for Tyson if you just accept those evolutionary scientific views. The main message here is that humans aren't special, since we are just "one tiny branch among countless millions." In case you think there's room for reasonable intellectual doubt, Tyson compares evolution to gravity, casting evolution as an undeniable "scientific fact." Perhaps common ancestry is a fact. But what is Tyson's evidence for it? It's this: similarities in DNA sequences between humans and other species. The episode portrays similar DNA sequences between humans and other species -- butterflies, wolves, mushrooms, sharks, birds, trees, and even one-celled organisms -- and says that because "we and other species are almost identical" in some core metabolic genes, "the DNA doesn't lie" and we are "long-lost cousins" with all these other organisms. With evolutionary apologetics in full force, Tyson even says this realization offers a "spiritual experience" -- a nice bit of "woo," included presumably to help appeal to the masses. Spiritual or not, is it true that there's a grand "tree of life" showing how we're related to all other organisms? A 2009 article in New Scientist concluded that the tree of life "lies in tatters, torn to pieces by an onslaught of negative evidence."13 Why? Because one gene yields one version of the tree of life, while another gene gives another sharply conflicting version of the tree. The article explained what's going on in this field:

For a long time the holy grail was to build a tree of life," says Eric Bapteste, an evolutionary biologist at the Pierre and Marie Curie University in Paris, France. A few years ago it looked as though the grail was within reach. But today the project lies in tatters, torn to pieces by an onslaught of negative evidence. Many biologists now argue that the tree concept is obsolete and needs to be discarded. "We have no evidence at all that the tree of life is a reality," says Bapteste. That bombshell has even persuaded some that our fundamental view of biology needs to change."

According to the article:

The problems began in the early 1990s when it became possible to sequence actual bacterial and archaeal genes rather than just RNA. Everybody expected these DNA sequences to confirm the RNA tree, and sometimes they did but, crucially, sometimes they did not. RNA, for example, might suggest that species A was more closely related to species B than species C, but a tree made from DNA would suggest the reverse.

The problem is rampant in systematics today. An article in Nature reported that "disparities between molecular and morphological trees" lead to "evolution wars" because "[e]volutionary trees constructed by studying biological molecules often don't resemble those drawn up from morphology."14 Another Nature paper reported that newly discovered genes "are tearing apart traditional ideas about the animal family tree" since they "give a totally different tree from what everyone else wants."15 So severe are the problems that a 2013 paper in Trends in Genetics reported "the more we learn about genomes the less tree-like we find their evolutionary history to be,"16 and a 2012 paper in Annual Review of Genetics proposed "life might indeed have multiple origins."17

Don't expect Neil deGrasse Tyson and Cosmos to disclose to viewers that there are problems with reconstructing a grand "tree of life." They need to maintain the pretense that "mindless evolution" provides all the answers -- complete with a "spiritual experience" -- even while disclaiming the fact that they're making such a brash claim.

If not by "mindless" or "unguided" evolution and common ancestry, how can we explain the fact that genes in different organisms are so similar? Though Neil deGrasse Tyson never mentions it, a fully viable explanation or these functional genetic similarities is common design.

Intelligent agents often re-use functional components in different designs, which means common design is an equally good explanation for the very data -- similar functional genes across different species -- that Tyson cites in favor of common ancestry. As Paul Nelson and Jonathan Wells explain:

An intelligent cause may reuse or redeploy the same module in different systems, without there necessarily being any material or physical connection between those systems. Even more simply, intelligent causes can generate identical patterns independently.18

Likewise, in their book Intelligent Design Uncensored, William Dembski and Jonathan Witt explain:

\

According to this argument, the Darwinian principle of common ancestry predicts such common features, vindicating the theory of evolution. One problem with this line of argument is that people recognized common features long before Darwin, and they attributed them to common design. Just as we find certain features cropping up again and again in the realm of human technology (e.g., wheels and axles on wagons, buggies and cars) so too we can expect an intelligent designer to reuse good design ideas in a variety of situations where they work.19

Thus, common design is a possible explanation for why two taxa can have highly similar functional genetic sequences. After all, designers regularly re-use parts, programs, or components that work in different designs. As another example, engineers use wheels on both cars and airplanes, or technology designers put keyboards on both computers and cell-phones. Or software designers re-use subroutines in different software programs.

But common designers aren't always obligated to design their designs according to a nested hierarchy. So when we find re-use of functional components in a pattern that doesn't match a nested hierarchy, we might look to common design. But wait -- that's exactly what we have here: similar genes being re-used in different organisms, but in a pattern that doesn't match the "tree-like" distribution predicted by Darwinian theory! Unfortunately, Neil deGrasse Tyson doesn't inform his viewers of any of this.

The Evidence for Design Speaks for Itself

In this second episode of Cosmos, Neil deGrasse Tyson and his co-creators hoped to convince viewers that intelligent design is wrong, but discussing by simply the complexity of biology, they couldn't help but expose people to the evidence for design in nature. When Cosmos Episode 2 showed brilliant animations of walking kinesin motors, and discussed the fact that DNA is a "molecular machine" that is "written in a language that all life can read," it unwittingly showed that intelligent design is a viable explanation. After all, what is the sole known cause that produces languages and machines? That one singular cause is, of course, intelligence. Even when you try to disregard the evidence for design in nature, it nevertheless speaks for itself.

[Update, 3/18/14: In a rebuttal filled with ad hominem attacks, journalist Chris Mooney attempts to respond to this article by claiming that "science deniers" are "freaking out" over Cosmos. His one substantive rebuttal is that the "tree of life" is doing just fine because of the "Open Tree of Life project, which plans to produce 'the first online, comprehensive first-draft tree of all 1.8 million named species, accessible to both the public and scientific communities.'" I'm sure that's a worthwhile project, but Mooney's comments don't address the fact a "treelike pattern" is fundamentally incompatible with much of the data being discovered by molecular biology.

The condundrum folks working with the Open Tree of Life project will face is this: Which tree is the real tree of life? They'll find that one gene gives you one version of the tree of life, and another gene gives an entire different, conflicting version of the tree of life. This is because the genetic data is not painting a consistent picture of common ancestry. Mooney wants his readers to think these are isolated problems, since the attempt to "reconstruct every last evolutionary relationship may still be an open scientific question, but the idea of common ancestry, the core of evolution (represented conceptually by a tree of life), is not." Actually, conflicts in the tree of life are rampant. As a 2012 paper in stated, "Phylogenetic conflict is common, and frequently the norm rather than the exception," and "Phylogenetic conflict has become a more acute problem with the advent of genomescale data sets."20 Or, as Michael Syvanen stated for the New Scientist article quoted above, "We've just annihilated the tree of life. It's not a tree any more, it's a different topology entirely." That seems to suggest scientists contributing to the "Open Tree of Life project" may have be in for far greater difficulties than Mooney is letting on. In short, Mooney hasn't addressed the criticisms I raised.

Had Mooney provided a non-ad-hominem-filled, evidence-based rebuttal that addressed my points, then I suppose I might have be wondering if my views are wrong. But given that he's resorting to so much namecalling and has not engaged our arguments, far from "freaking out," I'm actually quite encouraged.]

References Cited:

[1.] Ernst Mayr, What Evolution Is, pg. 140 (Basic Books, 2001).

[2.] Stephen C. Meyer, Scott Minnich, Jonathan Moneymaker, Paul A. Nelson, and Ralph Seelke, Explore Evolution: The Arguments For and Against Neo-Darwinism, p. 91 (Hill House, 2007).

[3.] Austin L. Hughes, "Looking for Darwin in all the wrong places: the misguided quest for positive selection at the nucleotide sequence level," Heredity, 99: 364-373 (2007).)

[4.] Ernst Mayr, What Evolution Is, p. 140 (Basic Books, 2001).

[5.] Jerry Coyne, "The Great Mutator," The New Republic (June 14, 2007).

[6.] Sean B. Carroll, The Making of the Fittest: DNA and the Ultimate Forensic Record of Evolution, p. 197 (W.W. Norton, 2006).

[7.] Douglas Axe, "Estimating the Prevalence of Protein Sequences Adopting Functional Enzyme Folds," Journal of Molecular Biology, 341 (2004): 1295-1315; Douglas Axe, "Extreme Functional Sensitivity to Conservative Amino Acid Changes on Enzyme Exteriors," Journal of Molecular Biology, 301 (2000): 585-595.

[8.] Douglas Axe, "The Limits of Complex Adaptation: An Analysis Based on a Simple Model of Structured Bacterial Populations," BIO-Complexity, 2010(4):1-10.

[9.] Ann Gauger and Douglas Axe, "The Evolutionary Accessibility of New Enzyme Functions: A Case Study from the Biotin Pathway," BIO-Complexity, 2011 (1): 1-17.

[10.] Ann Gauger, Stephanie Ebnet, Pamela F. Fahey, and Ralph Seelke, "Reductive Evolution Can Prevent Populations from Taking Simple Adaptive Paths to High Fitness," BIO-Complexity, 2010 (2): 1-9.

2): 1-9. [11.] Michael Behe and David Snoke, "Simulating Evolution by Gene Duplication of Protein Features that Require Multiple Amino Acid Residues," Protein Science, 13 (2004): 2651-2664.

[12.] Rick Durrett and Deena Schmidt, "Waiting for Two Mutations: With Applications to Regulatory Sequence Evolution and the Limits of Darwinian Evolution," Genetics, 180 (November 2008): 1501-1509.

[13.] Graham Lawton, "Why Darwin was wrong about the tree of life," New Scientist (January 21, 2009).

[14.] Trisha Gura, "Bones, Molecules or Both?," Nature, 406 (July 20, 2000): 230-233.

[15.] Elie Dolgin, "Rewriting Evolution," Nature, 486 (June 28, 2012): 460-462.

[16.] Bapteste et al., "Networks: expanding evolutionary thinking," Trends in Genetics, 29 (2013): 439-41.

[17.] Michael Syvanen, "Evolutionary Implications of Horizontal Gene Transfer," Annual Review of Genetics, 46 (2012): 339-56.

[18.] Paul Nelson and Jonathan Wells, "Homology in Biology," in Darwinism, Design, and Public Education, p. 316 (Michigan State University Press, 2003).

[19.] William Dembski and Jonathan Witt, Intelligent Design Uncensored: An Easy-to-Understand Guide to the Controversy, p. 85 (InterVarsity Press, 2010).

[20.] Liliana M. Dávalos, Andrea L. Cirranello, Jonathan H. Geisler, and Nancy B. Simmons, "Understanding Phylogenetic Incongruence: Lessons from Phyllostomid Bats," Biological Reviews of the Cambridge Philosophical Society, 87 (2012): 991-1024.

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No but really, this is probably the longest post I've ever seen on here