@akbogert said:
@xaos: Your own words merely confirm what I'm saying. You are viewing sex as the logical result of having a good friendship with a girl. And most girls won't view it that way. Just because the guy wants to be friends and lovers doesn't mean the girl needs to want to also be lovers. To suggest that the friendship is valued less by the girl because she's not willing to "put out" is just offensive.
If you don't want to be close friends with a girl unless there's a chance she'll sleep with you, you aren't really being a good friend in the first place. You should be just as kind/nice/whatever as possible even if there's NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER that she will EVER have sex with you. The whole language of "friend zone" suggests, just like you say, that you're a lower-tier friend and that you should be able to "level up" to friend-with-benefits or something. It treats a relationship like a game/something to be won. It also suggests that you did "everything right" and your lack of sex is because girls are unfair/not following the rules.
Whether you realize it or not it's extraordinarily misogynistic. Anyone who wants to blame their maintained virginity on being friend-zoned is unwittingly revealing that they are not the sort of person a girl would desire to be with because they're not interested in the girl's side of the relationship and what she is looking for; and the fact that they can't see it with their closest female friends suggests that they don't stand a chance of seeing it with other girls.
BRAVO on this post.
Being a male, I'm in agreeing with this. I used to be that guy, too. There was this girl, and I'd been crushing on her since the 8th grade, for a few years, even into high school. But I didn't have the courage to approach her, so I just kinda laid back while she didn't even know. We were in the band together, and I played trombone behind her (she was a flute). We talked from time to time, but never anything that made us actually close friends. I didn't even realize I liked her like that until later in the year. But she'd already had a boyfriend at the time, and definitely one of the prettiest girls of them all, lotta people chasing that one. Then I stepped my friend game up, being super nice and stuff, helping her whenever she needed anything, offering advice, and being nice when she had troubles with other boyfriends, or anything. Whatever she needed, I was on call, always offering help. And though I wasn't hoping specifically for sex, and I did care for her as an actual person, I was hoping maybe there was a chance we'd become more than just friends. We never did, even after some subtle hinting and trying and stuff. It took until the latter part of senior year of high school for me to get over that mindset, and when I no longer wanted her as a girlfriend. I still do care for her as a person, but I'm not looking for anything more anymore. And I thought I was "the nice guy who got stuck in the friendzone." Then I saw a picture, and it said "Friendzoning is bullshit because women are not machines you put kindness coins into until sex falls out." And I saw it and I got disgusted, because even though there was a time where I genuinely believed she was quite possibly the most beautiful girl in the world and wanted to be there for her in a close and intimate way - and I wasn't specifically looking for sex - what "nice guy," the ones who truly believe they're good guys, not the ones who pretend, are only looking for sex? We probably just assume that's the natural progression down the line. The fact remains I was approaching her like one of those Japanese love sims, thinking if I spent enough time doing enough nice things for her, the natural progression was <3 <3 <3. I thought she'd love me.
I just finished Freshman year of college, and when I finally did hit college, it was like something hit me. A force that came over me. I changed. My whole demeanor, stature, gait, the way I thought and talked. I think I realized how pretty I was, or something. From the shy guy who never thought much of himself to swaggering down the street (not as in "I got swagger. Uh, yeah." I mean as in the way I carried myself) and generally presenting myself in a much more confident manner, like I could take on the world. Then my mindset just sorta became, let the chips fall where they may. If I meet a girl, I will. If I don't, it won't happen yet. I also read this article on Cracked that I thought presented some really valid points, some directly addressing the "nice guy" thing. Now it upsets me when I hear about "the friend zone," or someone complaining because a girl doesn't fall for the nice guy. It's because, like me, they often tend to not present them in a manner that says "hey, I'm interesting." Sure, you're nice. But a relationship is much deeper than "we're constantly and repeatedly really nice to each other." You gotta present your interesting qualities as well, which usually won't happen if you're caught in the wrong mindset the whole time you're around her.
But hey, that's just my take on that.
And to answer the original question of the thread, it was this year. It was Rosa, the cleaning lady. I was getting out of the shower and she was coming in to clean up. She didn't speak English much, I'm not too good with Spanish, and things got complicated. I wouldn't say she was an Eva Mendes, but she's really nice and I'm also less about "she's not 'the bomb' physically appealing" as I used to be.
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