Topic of the Week: Does Christopher Columbus deserve a National Holiday?

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Lunacyde

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Lunacyde  Moderator

Poll Topic of the Week: Does Christopher Columbus deserve a National Holiday? (63 votes)

Yes. 32%
No. 59%
Not sure. 10%

Topic: Does Christopher Columbus Deserve a National Holiday?

Being that it is Columbus Day today, and there is still a good deal of controversy surrounding Christopher Columbus as a historical figure; I thought it would be a great topic to start our weekly segment off with. This is an issue that creates passionate responses on both sides so it should be a fiery debate, but I do ask that everyone remains civil. It is true that Christopher Columbus committed numerous crimes against indigenous peoples, but it is also argued that he is responsible for the creation of the most powerful nation on Earth. What is the truth? Are great crimes justified by great achievements? Does Christopher Columbus deserve to have a holiday dedicated to him?

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BeaconofStrength

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Happy Columbus Day.

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Warlockmage

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Happy Columbus Day

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Revan-

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#3  Edited By Revan-

If he does so do Hitler and Stalin. Both were genocidal maniacs who did some good things

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deactivated-5a794b61068b8

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Meh, personally I don't mind having a holiday for him.

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linsanel_Doctor

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He's just an excuse for a day off

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DaDivineKing

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Waiting for the actual arguments to commence. I don't know much about the subject so I'm just going to spectate.

However, from what little I do know from dabbling in the subject a bit, Christopher wasn't a man worthy of having a national holiday dedicated to him.

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cattlebattle

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"crimes against indigenous peoples"

I wasn't aware there was laws and standards back then. Even if there were, do we hold the indigenous peoples responsible for tribal warfare and brutality they took part in?? Ritualistic murder, cannibalism, rape, torture etc.....all were detailed to exist and be a part of daily life in the pre colonized Americas.

Or do we just hold Europeans responsible for stuff like this??

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deactivated-60fae469e992f

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Happy Columbus Day.

Happy Columbus Day to you too good sir. What a joyful occasion it is

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depinhom

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We know he did bad things. 80% of the leaders we look up to did. But we celebrate this holiday to revere his accomplishments.

My school didn't even have off today. On my b day no less.

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depinhom

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#11  Edited By depinhom

@cattlebattle: Those are some damn good points, my friend. Internet high five!

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Keenko

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@sophia89 said:

Columbus isn't as bad as people make him up to be. He was trying to discover a different route to India, not find new lands let alone conquer new lands. He literally hit the jackpot of discoveries (Funny how a lot of discoveries were on accidents). After he discovered Cuba, IIRC, he started the first settlement. Since he was the captain he was the mayor until Spain send a mayor. As a sea captain he wasn't prepared for the role he put himself in. In order to keep order in the new settlement he gave hardcore punishment to both the natives and his crew. His actions disgraced him in Spain, and despite his discovery he was shamed rather than embraced. He spent the rest of his life trying to gain the favor of the crown again.

The genocide that happened to the natives was not something he can be blamed for. He didn't know the set of dominos he started. Almost the entirety of natives died from disease (90%), which was something he couldn't control. The treatment that happened afterwards was again something he couldn't control. He couldn't predict the actions of people like Cortez.

Overall he wasn't a saint, but he wasn't the genocidal monster some people view him in. Does he deserve a NH? Yes. His discovery was something that changed the world, we're celebrating his discovery not the man. Most Americans just know that he is the guy that discovered America and nothing else, so we're only focusing on that single discovery, not him.

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jumpstart55

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#13  Edited By jumpstart55
  • Yes he does the guy discovered America for the Old World(Which Jump Started the modern age)...And he was really just a product of his time... Even going back thousands of years Many of our ancestors were conquerors who committed truly atrocious acts in the name of conquest...Who knows perhaps centuries from now people in the future will view us as being savages for the continued usage of fossil fuels despite its harmful effects on planets environments like for example the acidification of the oceans and the erosions of the Ozone layer..Both bring with them many terrible and harmful ramifications for sea life and wildlife(Including us humans).
  • Essential what i,m saying is, Time puts a lot of space between events and often changes perspectives due to constantly evolving customs. But Columbus's historic importance is unquestionable.
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Warlockmage

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"crimes against indigenous peoples"

I wasn't aware there was laws and standards back then. Even if there were, do we hold the indigenous peoples responsible for tribal warfare and brutality they took part in?? Ritualistic murder, cannibalism, rape, torture etc.....all were detailed to exist and be a part of daily life in the pre colonized Americas.

Or do we just hold Europeans responsible for stuff like this??

@sophia89 said:

Columbus isn't as bad as people make him up to be. He was trying to discover a different route to India, not find new lands let alone conquer new lands. He literally hit the jackpot of discoveries (Funny how a lot of discoveries were on accidents). After he discovered Cuba, IIRC, he started the first settlement. Since he was the captain he was the mayor until Spain send a mayor. As a sea captain he wasn't prepared for the role he put himself in. In order to keep order in the new settlement he gave hardcore punishment to both the natives and his crew. His actions disgraced him in Spain, and despite his discovery he was shamed rather than embraced. He spent the rest of his life trying to gain the favor of the crown again.

The genocide that happened to the natives was not something he can be blamed for. He didn't know the set of dominos he started. Almost the entirety of natives died from disease (90%), which was something he couldn't control. The treatment that happened afterwards was again something he couldn't control. He couldn't predict the actions of people like Cortez.

Overall he wasn't a saint, but he wasn't the genocidal monster some people view him in. Does he deserve a NH? Yes. His discovery was something that changed the world, we're celebrating his discovery not the man. Most Americans just know that he is the guy that discovered America and nothing else, so we're only focusing on that single discovery, not him.

i gotta say these are both good points.

Columbus day is not celebrating what happened to the natives. it is celebrating that he opened up the Americas to the New World (they didnt even exist in the minds of Europeans until he discovered them) he literally changed how people viewed the World and if you can't respect that part of him then maybe you need to look at why you care so much?

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DaDivineKing

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Some of the arguments for are pretty solid, honestly. Interested to see what the opposing side will bring to the table.

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Lunacyde

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#17 Lunacyde  Moderator

"crimes against indigenous peoples"

I wasn't aware there was laws and standards back then. Even if there were, do we hold the indigenous peoples responsible for tribal warfare and brutality they took part in?? Ritualistic murder, cannibalism, rape, torture etc.....all were detailed to exist and be a part of daily life in the pre colonized Americas.

Or do we just hold Europeans responsible for stuff like this??

Semantics.

One definition of crime as noted in Merriam-Webster is "an action or activity that, although not illegal, is considered to be evil, shameful, or wrong."

Also, strawman. The question is whether Columbus deserves to have a holiday in his honor. Whether or not some indigenous peoples committed crimes against each other has no bearing on that question.

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Lunacyde

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#18 Lunacyde  Moderator

@sophia89: The majority of that isn't true. But I'll wait until the end to post my thoughts since I don't want to influence the debate too much this early.

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mrmonster

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A) He was a genocidal maniac.

B) His historical achievements are grossly overrated and exaggerated. He did not "discover the Americas", there were already people here. If I walked into your house and said "I discovered a bathroom down the hall.", you'd think I was crazy. So anyone who says "Sure he killed people, but he..." is greatly misguided no matter how they finish that sentence.

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Lunacyde

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#20 Lunacyde  Moderator

Interesting that the vast majority of votes say no, and yet the vast majority of people actually making cases seem to say yes.

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depinhom

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@sophia89: Thanks, soph. Most of my friends forgot, haha. Appreciate it.

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Spambot

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"crimes against indigenous peoples"

I wasn't aware there was laws and standards back then. Even if there were, do we hold the indigenous peoples responsible for tribal warfare and brutality they took part in?? Ritualistic murder, cannibalism, rape, torture etc.....all were detailed to exist and be a part of daily life in the pre colonized Americas.

Or do we just hold Europeans responsible for stuff like this??

I think you are painting with an incredibly broad brush to portray all the indigenous people living in pre Columbus America in that way. Evil acts are still evil acts. Sure we can sort of excuse them based on outdated belief systems held by societies which were allowing them but not all tribes of people living in America were doing those things. Prob no more than were doing it in Europe where you had stuff like the inquisitions going on.

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linsanel_Doctor

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I certainly don't see why they bother erecting statues of this man.

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Lunacyde

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#24 Lunacyde  Moderator

@spambot: Not just the Inquisitions, but witch hunts, numerous wars, etc

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Elpizo

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#25  Edited By Elpizo

So because we are living in a politically sensitive time we have to argue whether he deserve a holiday? For all that, why not question all holidays? Should there be Thanksgiving?

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Lunacyde

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#26 Lunacyde  Moderator
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#28  Edited By Amendment50

A holiday for Chris Columbus is basically a holiday for one of America's and American history's shittiest qualities

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Warlockmage

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@sophia89 said:
@lunacyde said:

@sophia89: The majority of that isn't true. But I'll wait until the end to post my thoughts since I don't want to influence the debate too much this early.

Alright, I'll wait.

tag me for that also. its Midnight where i am right now so ill probably crash (or with my luck get called into work) but im still gonna read it

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Lunacyde

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#30 Lunacyde  Moderator

@warlockmage: It'll be a few days. The topic will be going on for a week, and i'm going to wait till towards the end to post.

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Mfundroid

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#31  Edited By Mfundroid

A holiday for Christopher Columbus? I guess our version of that would be giving Jan van Riebeeck a holiday. He discovered nothing, people were already living there and even greeted him cordially. And then him and his frequent shoppers of "Entitled 'R' Us" thought it'd be cute to make people's lives a living hell for 350 years. So if SA ever had to give him a holiday again, I'd say no.

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pipxeroth

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@sophia89:

His discovery was something that changed the world, we're celebrating his discovery not the man.

This pretty much sums up my view on the matter. It's hard to think of a bigger event than leading the European powers to colonise what has become indisputably the most powerful and most advanced country on the planet. IMO that is most certainly something that deserves a celebration.

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Hyperion_X

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Coloumbus is a hack. He didn't discover anything. The native North Americans were already here thousands of years before Coloumbus was even born. He wasn't even the first European to go to America, the Vikings were. They settled in Canada centuries before Chris' voyage. And Colombus was far from the first person who theorized that the Earth was round. The anicient Egyptians discovered this centries before Columbus' birth too. So what did Columbus discover??? Nothing. So if aliens came to Earth and conquered us they'd make the first alien who made the voyage to Earth a national hero for finding a planet full of people and claiming to have discovered it.Lol. Are you people serious???

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@cattlebattle:

I wasn't aware there was laws and standards back then.

Columbus actions towards indigenous people was horrible, even in 14th century

“They attacked the towns and spared neither the children nor the aged nor pregnant women nor women in childbed, not only stabbing them and dismembering them but cutting them to pieces as if dealing with sheep in the slaughter house,” de Las Casas wrote. “They laid bets as to who, with one stroke of the sword, could split a man in two or could cut off his head or spill out his entrails with a single stroke of the pike. They took infants from their mothers’ breasts, snatching them by the legs and pitching them headfirst against the crags or snatched them by the arms and threw them into the rivers, roaring with laughter and saying as the babies fell into the water, ‘Boil there, you offspring of the devil!'”

http://usuncut.com/world/7-myths-and-atrocities-of-christopher-columbus-that-will-make-you-cringe/

Even if there were, do we hold the indigenous peoples responsible for tribal warfare and brutality they took part in?? Ritualistic murder, cannibalism, rape, torture etc.....all were detailed to exist and be a part of daily life in the pre colonized Americas.

Tribal warfare didn't reduce the indigenous people population to near extinction. Tribal warfare didn't bring diseases to their people had no immunity, not to mention that Ritualistic murder, cannibalism, rape, torture etc, was also common for in Greece, Rome and England during the dark ages (450-1066)

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Warlockmage

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#35  Edited By Warlockmage

Coloumbus is a hack. He didn't discover anything. The native North Americans were already here thousands of years before Coloumbus was even born. He wasn't even the first European to go to America, the Vikings were. They settled in Canada centuries before Chris' voyage. And Colombus was far from the first person who theorized that the Earth was round. The anicient Egyptians discovered this centries before Columbus' birth too. So what did Columbus discover??? Nothing. So if aliens came to Earth and conquered us they'd make the first alien who made the voyage to Earth a national hero for finding a planet full of people and claiming to have discovered it.Lol. Are you people serious???

all of what you said was true, but He opened the Americas up to the New World, his voyage gave way to all the other voyages. He revolutionized how they viewed the world. a round world was no longer theory it was fact. he proved true that theory

Computers were around before Bill Gates and Microsoft yet he completely revolutionized the way computers are done now

Karl Benz did not invent the first car but he he is largely given credit for it. Both Robert Anderson and Nicolas-Joesph Cugnot both invented cars before hand.

So if aliens came to Earth and conquered us they'd make the first alien who made the voyage to Earth a national hero for finding a planet full of people and claiming to have discovered it.Lol. Are you people serious??

did the aliens find it by accident and change how the rest of the alien civilization viewed the Galaxy and its shape? if so then yeah i could see them getting their own holiday.

btw no one here has claimed Columbus is a national hero, but he did have a major impact on the entire world with his discovery. whether he was the first there or not, whether he did horrible things or not. He changed the world.

Are you serious?

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Hyperion_X

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@warlockmage: Hitler changed the world too. Changing the world is not always a good thing. As a man with both African American and Native American heritage all i see Columbus opened up the Americas and the "Old World" to is the exploitation, rape, murder, genocide, slavery and destruction of culture of indegious peoples of the Western Hemisphere and Africans from the Trans-Atlantic Slade Trade until the end of Jim Crow and even into the present day. Hitler was a genius too, but an evil genius deserves no praise. Especially when millions suffered because of it. So if you praise Columbus than you have to praise Hitler, Stalin, the emperor of Japan during WW2, Nepolean, The Cesars, Gengis Khan, etc. They all changed the world too, in some ways for the better, even it that better change was making people more aware of dangerous regimes and better preparing themselves. Or in Hitler's case stimulating the American economy through the war effort and pulling the U.S. out of The Great Depression. But was it worth 10s of millions of innocent lives? History played out the way it did and no one can change that, but giving credit to someone who brought about so much pain and death is insane. Even the ships Columbus used to sail to the New World were designed by the Moors who he likely got the concept of a round Earth from in the first place.

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buttersdaman000

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#37  Edited By buttersdaman000

Hmmm no. Giving him a national holiday is more honor than he deserves. While his contributions to our modern world can't be denied, the man was a horrible person. If we celebrate his life as a holiday we also have to celebrate the evil deeds that contributed to his legacy. I can't think of any other historical figure celebrated in America that committed acts as heinous as he did. Personally, I think honoring him in league with the rest, diminishes the requirements of being honored with a day. I find it better we just continue to learn about his life in history books, which is an honor in itself, rather than give the man an entire day.

Also, I still don't see how he "discovered" America. There were already people here.

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linsanel_Doctor

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This picture really doesn't do him any favors.

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tensor

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#41  Edited By Hyperion_X

@sophia89: The emperor of Japan during WW2 (i forgot his name) was responsible for one of the greatested and most brutual militaries in our history. The Empire of Japan was almost just as bad as the Nazis. They killed millions of innocent Koreans, Chinese, Filipinos, etc during their conquest of the Pacific. Japanese troops believed their emperor was divine and that they couldn't lose. The world was forever changed when America decided to drop the 2 atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as well as 1000s of incinerary rods on Japan as a whole. Because of the ass whuppin Japan took, as well Germany on their own soil these two countries were rebuilt by reperations by the Allies, mostly the U.S. Now because of this, both Japan and Germany are world superpowers who flurish from selling the world it's exported technology and goods. The Philippines, South Korea and various islands in the Pacific are now either U.S. territories or protected by the U.S. as a result of WW2 and the conflicts that followed it. So yes, the Japanese emperor changed the world too.

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Lunacyde

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#42 Lunacyde  Moderator

@hyperion_x: Actually the Emperor was largely a figurehead. General Hideki Tojo was responsible for the crimes of the Japanese, though you are correct about their brutality.

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He helped start America, greatest country on Earth.

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comic_fan123

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Eh

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Revan-

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"crimes against indigenous peoples"

I wasn't aware there was laws and standards back then. Even if there were, do we hold the indigenous peoples responsible for tribal warfare and brutality they took part in?? Ritualistic murder, cannibalism, rape, torture etc.....

Citation Needed

all were detailed to exist and be a part of daily life in the pre colonized Americas.

Or do we just hold Europeans responsible for stuff like this??

Well which one came to the others land and wiped out 90% of their population?

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Luellas

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No, Leif Erikson was the true founder

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Hyperion_X

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@lunacyde: @sophia89: Oh ok, i didn't know that. But Geogre W. Bush and some even argue that Bill Clinton were figureheads too. Figureheads are still essential for those in control to operate in secret or to be free from blame.

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@sophia89 said:
@hyperion_x said:

@warlockmage: Hitler changed the world too. Changing the world is not always a good thing. As a man with both African American and Native American heritage all i see Columbus opened up the Americas and the "Old World" to is the exploitation, rape, murder, genocide, slavery and destruction of culture of indegious peoples of the Western Hemisphere and Africans from the Trans-Atlantic Slade Trade until the end of Jim Crow and even into the present day. Hitler was a genius too, but an evil genius deserves no praise. Especially when millions suffered because of it. So if you praise Columbus than you have to praise Hitler, Stalin, the emperor of Japan during WW2, Nepolean, The Cesars, Gengis Khan, etc. They all changed the world too, in some ways for the better, even it that better change was making people more aware of dangerous regimes and better preparing themselves. Or in Hitler's case stimulating the American economy through the war effort and pulling the U.S. out of The Great Depression. But was it worth 10s of millions of innocent lives? History played out the way it did and no one can change that, but giving credit to someone who brought about so much pain and death is insane. Even the ships Columbus used to sail to the New World were designed by the Moors who he likely got the concept of a round Earth from in the first place.

What did he do?

I disagree. Hitler actively knew what he was doing.

Columbus was sailing and looking for something completely different. Chris was no saint, but I highly doubt he was thinking "Hm...time to destroy!" That's basically blaming him for stuff outside of his control. He's remembered for his great accident. That's about it.

History is ugly, but it's why we're here. Probably why you're here, in a sense. And yeah, If I am thinking about this correctly, many view Khan as a great military leader who laid the foundation for their dynasty. Third, I think it was.

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pipxeroth

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#50  Edited By pipxeroth

Semi-relevant meme

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