The Feminism Thread

young women are now better educated and higher paid than men. they completely control the sexual market. every law and social construct is extravagently in their favour

feminism in decades past? yea i get it. feminism in 2016? bullying beaten men. you won ladies. go on tinder and get laid by literally any guy you want. then marry him and divorce him for all his cash, even though you make more. then go on social media so you can hear what a hero you are, just for being female

So, would you say that calling this a "third wave" of feminism is something of a misnomer then? Considering the first two "waves" generally had a central goal in mind, while this one really doesn't seem to (at least to me)

Although I can see your position on how people in general treat each other.

To be honest I've only heard people who oppose feminism use the term "third wave feminism". I don't know if that's sarcasm or what it is but men and women literally have the same rights so the need for a feminist movement doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

@kute

young women are now better educated and higher paid than men

Do you have a source for this? It is true that women (age 24-35) are higher educated than men (of the same age bracket) in general according to the Institute for Women’s Policy Research. According to their study 36% of women in the aforementioned age group have a bachelors degree, as opposed to 28% for men. However in general women still earn less than men, even for the same job. The one major contradiction is the state of New York. Most of this gap can be chalked up to factors such as women being less likely to negotiate their wages, women working less hours, and women having to take breaks in their work careers to raise children. However a small percentage gap still exists that cannot be accounted for by any known factor. Furthermore the fact that more women are choosing to earn degrees than men does not mean that

they completely control the sexual market

Assuming sexual market theory is correct women's control of the sexual market is a side effect of risk and reward. Men get high reward and low risk from sex. Women on the other hand get low reward and high risk from sex. Because of this male sexual activity is easy to come by, whereas female sexual activity is far more difficult to come by. Due to the laws of supply and demand this puts women in a position of power because they control a resource that is in high demand, but low supply. Again this is due to the inherently higher risk and lower level of reward women receive through the sexual experience. It's a trade off.

Typically guys who complain about this are guys who bring nothing to the table in terms to "barter" for female sexual action, sticking with the economic phrasing.

every law and social construct is extravagently in their favour

This isn't even close to true. Social constructs like gender have lead to socialization where women are pushed into certain roles, fields of education, careers, and positions that afford them less societal power, influence, wealth, and status. Women are still underrepresented in positions of corporate and governmental leadership. Despite higher rates of higher education women have a more difficult time being promoted and still have difficulty breaking into STEM fields.

We still see men raping women and not even getting prison time for it. Meanwhile the woman has to deal with the trauma from that crime the rest of her life. Women are much more likely to be victimized than men when it comes to sexual harassment, sexual assault, and domestic violence. National Surveys estimate that 2 million women per year are battered by their intimate partners in the U.S., and the FBI Uniform Crime Report records approx. 1,500 women are murdered by their husbands/boyfriends every year. Bureau of Justice Statistics reports indicate that 3.8 million assaults and 500,000 rapes per year are committed against women. Of course this doesn't even take into account the amount of rapes that go unreported, which is a significant number. As recent as the 90s women in many states were not legally considered to have been raped if they didn't have substantial physical injury despite the National Violence Against Women survey (implemented by The National Institute of Justice and Center For Disease Control) indicating only 31% of rapes resulted in other physical injury. Using a definition of rape that includes forced vaginal, oral, and anal intercourse, the NVAW found that 18 percent of women surveyed said they experienced a completed or attempted rape at some time in their life.

The fact that largely male legislatures believe that they can legislate women's access to important healthcare services based on their own beliefs and control intimate aspects of women's lives is also certainly not in female's favor. Not to mention companies are not legally obligated to pay maternity leave, and the societal pressures on women to raise children, take care of the home, and live up to impossible standards of beauty are issues men don't have to deal with, among other things.

The one area where you are correct with women having a significant advantage is the imposition of criminal punishment, where men tend to have substantially harsher sentences and are more likely to be convicted in general. However, men are SIGNIFICANTLY more likely to commit crimes, particularly violent crimes (79% committed by males according to the FBI Uniform Crime Report), as well as more likely to be serial offenders, which directly leads to harsher sentences. Not to mention prostitutes are generally treated far more harshly than Johns in the criminal justice system.

In general women and men both have their own distinct issues and it is not to say that men have it easy, or have it better in every way, but the idea that women are given special preferential treatment across the board, or that they are extravagantly favored by American society is a fantasy.

feminism in decades past? yea i get it. feminism in 2016? bullying beaten men. you won ladies. go on tinder and get laid by literally any guy you want. then marry him and divorce him for all his cash, even though you make more. then go on social media so you can hear what a hero you are, just for being female.

You seem bitter. Perhaps you are too emotional on the subject.

At this stage there is little evidence that gender is a social construct and piles of growing counter evidence. Gender is most likely hard-coded into the fetus during the early months of pregnancy through the release of hormones like testosterone. Its believed the more testosterone the fetus gets, the more of a male-type brain they develop (higher interest in building and understanding systems, competitiveness), the less they get, the more they develop a female type brain (empathy, higher capacity for communicative skills).

Some girls get higher than average testosterone, some boys lower, leading to an overlap of 15%-20% for each gender. People in this bracket often correctly feel as though society pushed them into gender stereotypes, but incorrectly believe this is true for everyone.

Gender Identity and the Brain

Biological differences will cause discrepancies, which is why its important to strive for equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome.

@silent_bomber: Sex and gender are not the same things. The idea that a "woman should be in the home" is a completely gender-based value statement generated by society. Also women being predisposed to one thing doesn't mean that society hasn't coded it so that it has now become the expectation for all women.

So while I agree with you, the practical application means that gender roles are still inhibitive, and yes they are indeed socially constructed, even if there is a basis in biology.

as a woman - the so call feminism thing make me numb all over.

@lunacyde:

you sure spent alot of words to say nothing and call men rapists. besides every rapist nowadays is a female teacher according to the never ending stream of hot pedos I read about

Amuses me how hard men get offended by women wanting equality.

@kute: If that is what you got from my response I don't know what to tell you.

@jucaslucasa: That lady needs to go to a psych ward.

Listen and believe

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3763105/Millionaire-releases-surveillance-video-glamorous-ex-fiancee-beating-claiming-abused-vicious-divorce.html

@soaring: What's that got to do with feminism?

Listen and believe is a sticking point for the Lena Dunham types; that make out we live in a rape culture

@soaring: I say again, what does that post have to do with feminism? I don't see the connection. Please elaborate.

Can't tell if you're being serious or trolling

Anyway if you actually don't understand for some reason - read the article again, then watch this. The connection should be obvious - if not; I can't help you

I gift you fine people something.... Special.

Only really dumb people or trolls can think now that this is about equality, for it is not. It is about complexes. Are you troll?

@rubear: I'm a feminist and I for one can tell you wholeheartedly I want equality, so there's an indisputable fact. I also know plenty of other feminists (on this forum) who want equality. Not all feminists do, some are crazy and I agree. But it's impossible for you to tell me that I do not want equality when I say I do. The majority of feminists do too.

Oh, sure you can claim that you want equality. But here is a lot of but. For example equal rights presumes equal responsibilities. How many of feminists realise it? How many of so-called feminists speak against said crazies? And you can't deny that for a lot of people and such movements idea of equality is just a tool, mask to pursure their own interests of either practical (job quotas, affirmative actions, etc...) or psychological (said complexes) kind. That most human rights movements end up not fighting for equality, but demanding some kind of privileges and favours. That most of people would stand against some theoretical upper classes not for equality of all, but to take their place and became new upper class. And it's impossible for you to tell me that you don't have other subconscious motivations that you do not realize you have at all. Vast majority of humans have them. It's human nature)

@rubear: I'm sure you can read my mind. I said I want equality, you really can't say otherwise.

By that logic if i say that i'm little green man from Alpha Centauri then you really can's say otherwise.
Same with psychos who claim that they are Napoleons)

@rubear: You're being ridiculous.

Said the "feminist" who answered none of question asked, but instead used cheap "exceptional credibility" card.
Oh, and i'm not beign ridiculous, just methodical in demolishing your claims)

Wonder Woman respect.

@rubear: I guess the interesting question then is: Is inequality of means acceptable to achieve equality of ends?

Why should it be? Forced equality of outcome is unfair to all parties involved and equality of oppertunity should allow everybody the chance to achive the highest outcomes possible.

See this is one point that I don't know about, the numbers on how many or how often men get raped or sexually assaulted varies from 3% to 38% to over half according to a CDC survey, depending on the study or survey and who or what they count as sexual assault. Of course if you only define rape as forceful penetration, then that makes it almost impossible for a woman to sexually assault a man. Many studies also don't take into account prison rapes. Also you have to take into account an incredible, even higher than with women, stigma against men coming forward with rape allegations.

@decaf_wizard: That isn't necessarily what I am talking about. Equality of opportunity is a misleading phrase, and if you think that is what we have you are sadly mistaken.

@rubear: Demolishing my claim? So you have so little faith in humanity, you don't believe another human being can want all humans to be equal? I feel sorry for you.

@lunacyde: I guess the interesting question then is: Is inequality of means acceptable to achieve equality of ends?

That sounds almost as if you believe that end justifies the means.

Then what are you talking about?

I don't understand how equality of oppertunity is a misleading phrase, but Im not a big enough idiot to belive it exists in practice. Ovbiously there are things like workplace discrimination and issues related to the poverty cycle that prevent that from being truely the case

@pyrogram: I believe that there is a big difference between claims and believes) You'll see it one day when you'll grow up.

These are good points

Just to add:

-There is over 200,000 prison rapes in the US alone in certain years, the majority of victims of which are male. Compared to 90,000 cases of rape reported outside of prison

-Females are almost never charged with domestic abuse, however studies and experts will tell you that 1 in 6 men face relationship abuse in their life

-The forceful penetration definition of rape is law in several countries including the UK

Add on to this; the abuse rates from lesbian couples as well

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/05/07/attack-of-the-killer-dykes/

@pyrogram: The hard thing is: how do we measure equality/inequality. It is an emotinal thing. Victims of Ineqality will most allways keep seeing themselves as victims of Ineqality even if true equality is reached.

Jelousy among women is a real thing and so is penis-envy, I don't mean that women want a to have a penis, but that women are often jelous of men. Women can't truely fathom what it is to be a man. So they don't know how hard it is to be a man. Often the perks of being a man is seen and wanted, but the plight of man is disregarded as nothing. Men in general are not complainers. To complain is weak in their eyes. So they wil not tell hard it is to be a man. We move from a system feminism calls Patriarchy. In their eyes a man made system to benefit men and hurt women. This is incorrect the system discribed as Patriarchy is gender role system created by both men and women to protect women from the harshness of life. Men bring home the bacon and women make the home. A simple system that sufficed until about 1969. Washing Machines, vacuum cleaners and contraception were invented and the world changed. Women had time and could contol the flow of childeren. Feminisms 2nd wave was born.

This is part of the discussion that needs to be had about the new gender roles in society. The old fasioned gender roles still suit some couples, but more and more couples are not sticking to them anymore. This is the way it should be. It is to those whitin a relationship to figure out who does what, to talk this through as equals.

Women in the western world have all the rights men have, and more. So equality of opporunity is achieved. Equality of outcome not yet. Women still earn less than men Men. Not under 30 years, but after the childbearing years they still do. Leaving the workforce for raising childeren and working part-time are to "blame" for that. That and career choice. So one can not really say that there is inequality in that anymore. Inequality by choice is not real inequality.

@rubear: Well I can safely tell you as a rational adult, that my claims are in line with my belief in this instance. You need more faith in human beings.

Equality is equality and should be equal - except when it's not

Then it's ok - with all things being equal

Which reminds me

Zoolander 2 is a really bad film

The Anti-Feminism Thread

AKA the intelligence thread

I'm not a mod, but is this really needed?

@decaf_wizard

Then what are you talking about?

I don't understand how equality of oppertunity is a misleading phrase, but Im not a big enough idiot to belive it exists in practice. Ovbiously there are things like workplace discrimination and issues related to the poverty cycle that prevent that from being truely the case.

Equality of opportunity insinuates that if the legal framework of a society doesn't discriminate this must mean that everyone shares equal opportunity. This is simply not the case, it is merely a shift from de jure to de facto oppression. For example women have achieved essential legal parity with men, but an inequitable division of household/childrearing labor and damaging socialization patterns still restrict them from achieving equality of opportunity. Some may point to the fact that women are now earning degrees at a higher rate than men, but they are ignoring the fact that this behavior is necessary for women to achieve parity in pay, representation in positions of societal power, and break into male dominated fields. The same goes for a minority child from a poor neighborhood when compared to an affluent white counterpart. People like to labor under the delusion that there is an equal playing field in America and that anyone can do anything if they simply work hard. The evidence resoundingly refutes this, and proves in fact that it is not the case. American society is an astoundingly complex system and ingrained injustices affect each other producing a self perpetuating cycle that privileges certain complex identities over others.

@rubear

That sounds almost as if you believe that end justifies the means.

Depends on what means and what ends. Something like Affirmative Action is justifiable in being discriminatory in order to correct for deeply ingrained inequalities that are perpetuated in American society. However, something like affirmative action is merely a band-aid. The same goes for welfare programs which redistribute wealth based upon need. If we want to permanently fix the inequalities of our society we need to break it down on an institutional level and engage in sweeping reforms to promote true democratic input, empower all individuals to control their own destiny, while preserving the integrity of all groups involved.

I'm a low-key feminist and I dare you to tell me there's no need for it considering the fact that I live in South Africa. I dare you.

There's no need for you to be a feminist.

So you live in a 3rd world hell hole too?

How's the situation for women there? It's pretty chill here in Brazil.

@removekebab: I wouldn't call Brazil a third world hell hole. It's not that bad. lol