DBZ: Logic vs inconsistency & fallacy

If you go into the battle forum you are bound to see a DBZ vs Comics thread being debated, which isn't a problem....until it becomes one. If you know me, you will know i am a vivid hater of "DBZ vs..." on ComicVine not because i generally hate DBZ, I'm actually a huge DBZ fan,but i hate the outrageous arguments presented as to how they can beat the other characters presented. let me state now that this is in no way shape or forum a DBZ hate post. this is a post doubting the credibility of some arguments posted for DBZ along with some reason why they shouldn't be taken seriously. so please dont lock this.

the biggest problem about manga v comics is that manga's do not clearly establish stats for their characters. this seems to be a common trait within Japanese manga but it doesn't affect the quality of the manga at all, it only affects any argument for the characters they are debating for. when debating for DBZ the users are forced to assume what strength power, and speed feats the characters by feats but it also leads to absurd theories and logical fallacies (by "logic" i mean the logic within the comic. i realize fictional characters do not run on logic). two common arguments used for DBZ debates is the power level argument and ABC logic.

POWER LEVEL ARGUMENT: the problem as too why the power level argument shouldn't be used ever is due to the fact that this theory lacks information. Power levels in DBZ, from the sayan saga too the frieza saga, never followed any type of noticeably pattern. power levels in DBZ seemed to rise randomly. it would be 9000 one episode then 100,000 ten episodes later. To top off the fail of this argument, it was rarely used after the frieza saga. The DBZ warriors learned to sense and scan ki and never once uttered a single digit about their power level (the androids might have but they cant sense energy).The show never gave the fans an equation to map out the power levels of the DBZ warriors so how can you? its purely speculation. all theories regarding this should be considered null and void

ABC LOGIC: lets discuss what ABC logic means; A beat B so he can beat C (or A lost to B so he cant beat C). this can be used as a logical argument, especially in a battle of cosmic being, who's battles are totally based of how much of a power house the other opponent is. but if there are any other factors in between the fight between A and B the argument goes to sh!t. for example; regular Hercules beat the silver surfer so silver surer cant beat Thor, but if silver surfer was already in a tough battle with beta ray bill before he fought Hercules how is that a logical argument? a valid argument would be, Punisher always beats Deadpool in a standard, fair gun fight so Punisher can beat taskmaster in a fair standard because taskmaster has weaker aim and skill compared to Deadpool. not really but you get the point right? but ABC logic fits even worst in manga vs comic fights. for example; Spiderman lost to captain america in a fair fist fight so Naruto beats Spiderman because Naruto>CA. you can see the fail within the argument right? CA has actual physical stats and martial arts training, where Naruto's can not be measured. it gets even crazier when you use ABC logic for DBZ. piccolo in the sayan saga destroyed the moon so Gohan in the Frieza saga can destroy the moon or greater. Gohan in the Frieza saga has never displayed such power but with ABC logic he can.

to sum up my post let me state some DBZ facts that can actually be supported with feats from the show/manga;

1.only two characters in DBZ has been able to utterly destroy planets and that is kid buu and broly. there are many characters that can bust planets by its only by destroying its core and their attacks take to long to charge

2.DBZ characters are able to go hyper sonic or light speed. we cant accurately measure gotanks feat of circling the world that many times but it was extremely fast.

3.DBZ characters fight at hyper sonic and of course debatable light speeds. to human eyes the DBZ warriors disappear when fighting.

4.DBZ characters have hyper sonic reflex's. many characters have deflected/dodged attacks stated to be faster than they could see.

5.DBZ strength feats are to inconstant to be measured. the creator of DBZ has measured 2 thing; the fact that they can train in 100x gravity and the fact that base goku can not even move 40 tons. we cant measure gravity into strength (or at least i cant) and we cant measure how SSJ amps power. when the weight was added goku went SSJ he was more powerful, but how can you measure it? all we know is that SSJ can easily lift 40 tons

THANKS FOR READING

sorry about typos

feel free to berate me

well done

@texasdeathmatch:

@Glitch_Spawn:

it had to be said, i posted this so i can just link any DBZ fanboy to it

bumping for jusice

Great read!

@ssejllenrad: thank you sir, sorry for grammer/typos, ill fix later

@FLCL1: the biggest problem about manga v comics is that manga's do not clearly establish stats for their characters. this seems to be a common trait within Japanese manga but it doesn't affect the quality of the manga at all, it only affects any argument for the characters they are debating for. when debating for DBZ the users are forced to assume what strength power, and speed feats the characters by feats but it also leads to absurd theories and logical fallacies (by "logic" i mean the logic within the comic. i realize fictional characters do not run on logic). two common arguments used for DBZ debates is the power level argument and ABC logic.

I can agree with this.

POWER LEVEL ARGUMENT: the problem as too why the power level argument shouldn't be used ever is due to the fact that this theory lacks information. Power levels in DBZ, from the sayan saga too the frieza saga, never followed any type of noticeably pattern. power levels in DBZ seemed to rise randomly. it would be 9000 one episode then 100,000 ten episodes later. To top off the fail of this argument, it was rarely used after the frieza saga. The DBZ warriors learned to sense and scan ki and never once uttered a single digit about their power level (the androids might have but they cant sense energy).The show never gave the fans an equation to map out the power levels of the DBZ warriors so how can you? its purely speculation. all theories regarding this should be considered null and void

It's only lack of stating how many km/h is pl of 1 and how many kg they can lift with pl of 1 and how these are growing after +1PL. But we know what is ki, how to get more ki, what if they get more ki. If you don't know exacly how a car works in details, you shouldn't say a car faster than a bus?

The noticeably pattern is the training, and in saiyans case, the zenkai boost. It isn't randomly rise, and the ten episode later is an exaggeration.

If was rarely used after Freeza saga because they measured it with scouter. The Z fighters don't need scouter, they can sense and measure ki. It is not proving anything fail. c16(or who is the biggest android who killed by cell) used some scouter last before the Buu saga and he was right.

We don't know exact PL numbers after the Freeza saga, but why would we need that, It isn't a reason we should never arguing with the power levels.

ABC LOGIC: lets discuss what ABC logic means; A beat B so he can beat C (or A lost to B so he cant beat C). this can be used as a logical argument, especially in a battle of cosmic being, who's battles are totally based of how much of a power house the other opponent is. but if there are any other factors in between the fight between A and B the argument goes to sh!t. for example; regular Hercules beat the silver surfer so silver surer cant beat Thor, but if silver surfer was already in a tough battle with beta ray bill before he fought Hercules how is that a logical argument? a valid argument would be, Punisher always beats Deadpool in a standard, fair gun fight so Punisher can beat taskmaster in a fair standard because taskmaster has weaker aim and skill compared to Deadpool. not really but you get the point right? but ABC logic fits even worst in manga vs comic fights. for example; Spiderman lost to captain america in a fair fist fight so Naruto beats Spiderman because Naruto>CA. you can see the fail within the argument right? CA has actual physical stats and martial arts training, where Naruto's can not be measured. it gets even crazier when you use ABC logic for DBZ. piccolo in the sayan saga destroyed the moon so Gohan in the Frieza saga can destroy the moon or greater. Gohan in the Frieza saga has never displayed such power but with ABC logic he can.

There is two type of the ABC logic. The faulty one is. A)Superman can lift the Earth for 5 days, B)If Flash beaten Superman C)Flash can lift the Earth for 5 days. The method used to beat Superman is not the power needed for bench pressing with the Earth. In other words, the measures are different. There is no relevance between A and B.

The ABC in DBZ is working on with the same measure(ki). So it's transitive relation

Piccolo destroyed the moon, with the same ki and ki controlling ability everybody could destroy it, but they didn't have reason to destroy anything IIRC. If you think it's false, then show a proof they can't destroy something they want(enemies not included). If you can't it's faulty arguing.

Anyway Gohan destroyed a small mountain after Raditz, when Piccolo threw toward it. He was almost a baby there, I just saying.

5.DBZ strength feats are to inconstant to be measured. the creator of DBZ has measured 2 thing; the fact that they can train in 100x gravity and the fact that base goku can not even move 40 tons. we cant measure gravity into strength (or at least i cant) and we cant measure how SSJ amps power. when the weight was added goku went SSJ he was more powerful, but how can you measure it? all we know is that SSJ can easily lift 40 tons

I don't say how much Goku can lift, but ffs, that scan where he can't lift 40t should not taken seriously. You saw that what he lifted in DB, and those are not stated but you can guess those much more than 20ton(Goku was wearing 10ton per arm).

This is something I've said for a long time. I have another bit of info I can add to it to further discredit the notion of power levels, and why strength and abilities don't scale linearly based on perceived "power levels". Please edit your post with this in it:

.

.

@Cybrilious4 said:

Based on mathematical calculations, Goku with a power level of 500,000,000 can destroy an Earth size planet 33,333 times because it takes a power level of 15,000 to destroy the Earth and master Roshi destroyed the moon with a power level of 180. 81 moons by mass equals 1 Earth and 180 x 81 = approximately 15,000. So use this logic for Goku. 500,000,000 / 15,000 = 33,333.

THIS.

IS.

WHY.

WE.

CAN'T.

HAVE.

NICE.

THINGS.

Power levels are BULLSH*T. They don't scale like that. They don't scale AT ALL mathematically. Akira Toriyama himself stopped using them because they were RETARDED. You can only use them to compare characters to each other RELATIVELY SPEAKING, not ABSOLUTELY or MATHEMATICALLY SPEAKING.

If what you just said is true.

Goku could destroy the solar system with a single blast, possibly without even breaking a sweat.

Goku charged up a kamehameha blast, using much of his energy and straining to do so, threatening to blow up the planet in the process, and directed the blast at Cell... And all it destroyed was Cell. It didn't even do that, really, he was still alive and most of his body intact. But it sure as f*ck didn't destroy the solar system, or the equivalent of several thousand Earths. It detonated right on the Earth's surface and so it should have destroyed everything; I mean, there literally is no difference between detonating the blast on the Earth, or on a guy standing on the Earth, either way it's going to blow up. It didn't destroy anything but Cell though.

PROBLEM, FAILMATH!?

If we go by that logic, then each normal human should have enough ki to destroy a small city or more. We know this is untrue, because normal humans in DBZ aren't capable of ki feats at all. Only highly trained or talented humans can use ki at all. But, humans still have a power level of 1. So, they can destroy 1/180 of the moon, easily enough to destroy a small city.

Power levels don't scale. At all. Their only purpose was to allow fans to keep track of who was more powerful; they became obsolete when all the main characters were able to sense energy themselves.

@mypasswordis1234: if you have to use unverified equations not made by the staff, or even more important, the director of the show then it shouldnt be used. period. im glad you agree. i already stated that the z warriors didnt need scouters, it was part of my argument. after the frieza saga power levels by digits are purely speculative.

the flash/superman Comparisent you just did makes no sense but i get what you are trying to say. I agree that it is faulty but i have never seen any fanboy use an argument that stupid. back to the point; if you use faulty ABC logic like your example in comics i would ask for some proof that flash can lift a planet and i would win the case due to insufficient evidence. If you asked a similar question for DBZ i would ask for proof, proving vegeta (throwing name out) could lift that planet because goku could and vegeta beat him but it would be the same case because of lack of evidence. my point is, unless you cant provide some sort of evidence that the ABC logic you use is valid WITHOUT resorting to more ABC logic/logical fallacies, it shouldnt be used comic or manga debates. difference is superman has valid power stats and constant feats to support it.

its called PIS dude, piccolo destroying a moon without even charging? its PIS, he had to charge his special beam canon to kill radtiz. why didnt he use his "moon destruction" abilities on radtiz to kill him? you are asking me to prove something i dont think he can do? i cant point out many inconsistencies but that would take all day. BTW it isnt faulty logic, him doing that is an inconstancy compared to the rest of the show.

so we should take piccolo blowing up the moon seriously but a set standard (40 tons) as a joke? you cant be serious?

@FLCL1: I am not making equations, but what is the unverified equation? The SSJ gives them 50x overall strength, it's not speculation. The other statements are not for exact number just to know their bottom limits, and for comparing the characters. That is not math thing and verified, also explained by Toriyama in a interview. I am agree with that the lack of numbers give the problem in battle threads and it's not problem for the quality of stories. Power levels not need them after the Freeza saga and why would it need for you, when you think it's bs. Those who estimated it that just for fun.

You really want me to prove the effect of more ki? Ok then without any abc logic. Vegeta beaten Zarbon, Vegeta was more ki, then Zarbon changed into some monster, he had more ki, he stomped Vegeta. After that, Vegeta healed and got zenkai boost, he fighted again vs monster Zarbon and now Vegeta win, because already he had the more ki/pl. Vegeta was afraid of the Ginyu Force, only Guldo was weaker than he, he get beaten. After a zenkai boost he killed Jeece. Those who have more ki are stronger. Transitive relation. The "I don't see it I don't believe it" is an opinion, you have to right for it, but it's remain an opinion, not proof against anything.

I gave you a simple example for bad abc logic and you refuted that to me.......

"its called PIS dude, piccolo destroying a moon without even charging? its PIS, he had to charge his special beam canon to kill radtiz. why didnt he use his "moon destruction" abilities on radtiz to kill him? you are asking me to prove something i dont think he can do? i cant point out many inconsistencies but that would take all day. BTW it isnt faulty logic, him doing that is an inconstancy compared to the rest of the show." No comment for calling that a PIS. The makankosanpo is a piercing attack not exploding and a beam doesn't necessary need a moon sized explosion for the effect, they concentrating it into a small point, even Raditz noticed that. You say krillin couldn't destroy a moon. You have to prove it because your belief that he couldn't not an argument.

I think you not even watched DBZ. The 40t scene was a joke scene, if you didn't know that you didn't watched.

@FLCL1...You perfectly put into words my thoughts on the whole DBZ vs comics thing for me...Cheers pal!.... Tho when anyone questions it, we are automatically put into a "whining" or "b*tching" category, when it's actually a valid question! I have nothing against DBZ/DBGT but the sheer mechanics of trying to compare DBZ characters immeasurable (damn-near absurd), inconsistant, powers/feats/stats to those of comicbook characters and debate logically (and debate logically with a grain of salt I mean) is almost impossible w/o it turning into somekind of flame war. Having DBZ vs threads is cool, I personally feel they should just stay within the context of it's own universe of characters.

@mypasswordis1234: you completely lost me when you tried to make since of the power level system for SSJ. i just explained why all theories is speculative and why it shouldnt be used....at all.

that logic works in DBZ but in what why can it be used in a DBZ vs comic fight? can you prove the opponents vegeta beat are stronger than some DC/marvel powerhouses? without using logical fallacies can you prove vegeta is? can you come up with a valid measurement? no.

"The 'I don't see it I don't believe it' is an opinion" no its a logical fact. if i say the sentry has a supernatural spaghetti monster on his right shoulder giving him a 50 ton boost and dancing advice, does it make it true because YOU cant prove it wrong? you might want to rethink what you just said.

so by your messed up logic radtiz>the moon? that has to be your argument if you are arguing that piccolo blowing up the moon is a legit feat. piccolo had to charge up his best attack (special beam canon" to kill him but a ki blast can destroy the moon? lol c'mon man, it's PIS

"I think you not even watched DBZ. The 40t scene was a joke scene, if you didn't know that you didn't watched."

so we should take piccolo blowing up the moon seriously but a clear set standard (40 tons) by the director of the show as a joke? answer the question.

Such a great blog post with so many true points. Why aren't you involved in this upcoming death battle between Goku and Superman? Excellent post!

but the sheer mechanics of trying to compare DBZ characters immeasurable (damn-near absurd), inconsistant, powers/feats/stats to those of comicbook characters and debate logically (and debate logically with a grain of salt I mean) is almost impossible w/o it turning into somekind of flame war. Having DBZ vs threads is cool, I personally feel they should just stay within the context of it's own universe of characters.

@Vance Astro said:

@SHAZAM117 said:

but the sheer mechanics of trying to compare DBZ characters immeasurable (damn-near absurd), inconsistant, powers/feats/stats to those of comicbook characters and debate logically (and debate logically with a grain of salt I mean) is almost impossible w/o it turning into somekind of flame war. Having DBZ vs threads is cool, I personally feel they should just stay within the context of it's own universe of characters.

It shouldn't be impossible to debate on a specific thing without a flame war, that's absurd to me. It sounds like people are allowing themselves to be baited into an unreasonable argument that they can't win and then blaming the threads themselves for what they have complete control over.

its been impossible for 3 years, you should know you were part of them. you make it seem as if these fanboys are trolling. look at mypasswordis lol are you not seeing his "logical" argument. they actually believe the putrid sh!t they are saying.

@Lvenger said:

Such a great blog post with so many true points. Why aren't you involved in this upcoming death battle between Goku and Superman? Excellent post!

because this is the 73rd superman thread i've been on

its been impossible for 3 years, you should know you were part of them. you make it seem as if these fanboys are trolling. look at mypasswordis lol are you not seeing his "logical" argument. they actually believe the putrid sh!t they are saying.

@Vance Astro:

ever since i registered on CV & AV, i've seen these arguments, hell i used to be a DBZ fanboy and got in it with you and erik in a superman v piccolo or something like that. could have been longer this shit has been going on.....

no sh!t people lack self control on DBZ threads, it tends to happen when you see threads like goku vs cyborg superman with comment that look like "goku curbstomps". people tend to argue for what they think is right even if it's just that one person that disagrees with the majority. As long as you have that one dead serious tard saying a weaker opponent stomps with no proof and blind faith, there will be a flame war.

want proof of that this applies to anything, not just DBZ? remember when that storm fanboy, rbywhatever, went on every storm thread saying she beat SS, superboy prime, etc? and every user on the site went fking nuts?

@Vance Astro: From battle bible:

Don't be stubborn and egotistical. No matter how much we know, there's always someone out there that knows more about something else. These debates aren't about winning, they're about learning and sharing your knowledge. Don't foolishly stand by your original stance just because you don't want to "lose." That's nonsense. It far more respectable to admit you were wrong on something than to drag it out.

This is why flame wars happen. I mean, nobody read that or take seriously. You can see here too, the OP started with valid points, I refuted it but he continued being skeptical to the point he think obvious things was PIS in the series and he will twist my sentences forever but never gonna accept it.(he admittedly hater so it isn't surprise though) When this happen someone will lost his patient and usually write back with a disrespectful style, the next is insulting, the next is ban.:)

@FLCL1 said:

@mypasswordis1234: 1you completely lost me when you tried to make since of the power level system for SSJ. i just explained why all theories is speculative and why it shouldnt be used....at all.

2that logic works in DBZ but in what why can it be used in a DBZ vs comic fight? can you prove the opponents vegeta beat are stronger than some DC/marvel powerhouses? without using logical fallacies can you prove vegeta is? can you come up with a valid measurement? no.

3"The 'I don't see it I don't believe it' is an opinion" no its a logical fact. if i say the sentry has a supernatural spaghetti monster on his right shoulder giving him a 50 ton boost and dancing advice, does it make it true because YOU cant prove it wrong? you might want to rethink what you just said.

4so by your messed up logic radtiz>the moon? that has to be your argument if you are arguing that piccolo blowing up the moon is a legit feat. piccolo had to charge up his best attack (special beam canon" to kill him but a ki blast can destroy the moon? lol c'mon man, it's PIS

5"I think you not even watched DBZ. The 40t scene was a joke scene, if you didn't know that you didn't watched."

so we should take piccolo blowing up the moon seriously but a clear set standard (40 tons) by the director of the show as a joke? answer the question.

1You wrote this: " if you have to use unverified equations not made by the staff" - The SSJ is a verified equation, 50x overall boost, same as the kaioken only more. I didn't say more. You still didn't tell me where did I use any equation with something math included, or why would we need that, and how that make the whole power scaling invalid(because only the complete useless things shouldn't used).

2"that logic works in DBZ but in what why can it be used in a DBZ vs comic fight?" Don't answer me with questions. The logic works in DBZ, answer for that why should we ignore it because there isn't ki in other universes. Transitive relation is NOT logical fallacy, I know you by logical fallacy you think on power level. If you don't agree with it you don't agree with 1 IRL science/math 2 Without math, still simple logic 3 basic known DBZ fact, I understood it when I was 15yo. Even an another dbz critic writer said that everyone knows the ki raising raising their base stats(only problem we don't know how much, with numbers)

3IBitch please(no offense, yao ming pic) it's a typical argument. Atheist anti-religion argument. We have no reason to suppose there is a spagetti monster. If we have reasons we can believe. But I bet you don't believe in big bang, or atoms, or evolution, BLACK HOLES or tons of scientific theories, because you can't see it. Also YOU said that they can't do something. YOU have to prove your truth. It's possible if you show that they failed to destroy something.

4It's a new knowledge for you they concentrating ki and controll it? And ki gives durability too? And that a beam don't necessary have to blow to have enough piercing power? And that Roshi destroyed a moon too and both was important key in the story(especially Piccolo's moonblast)? Honestly, did you watched dragon ball? It isn't matter if you not just admit it.

5Ok I need to explain you why that was a joke scene. The joke is: East or what direction Kaio came and told to South Kaio how powerful warrior he have. They were rivaling. South Kaio said how Goku train. Another Kaio said XY(his fighter) could do that. South Kaio said "oh yea but Goku can do it with 10 ton per arm too" Another Kaio didn't believe it so he changed, he couldn't lift it so he turned SSJ as Kaio suggested him. The another Kaio impressed, South Kaio said him fight against Goku in the tournament on Earth, the another Kaio leave the place and said "XYhisfighter doesn't have time for it anyway" but he didn't admit he stronger. This is the joke scene, literally. Not related to the story, he was far above planetbuster already - shouldn't take seriously < Feat did twice related to the story, at the start of dbz and db - taken seriously.

@Vance Astro:

ever since i registered on CV & AV, i've seen these arguments, hell i used to be a DBZ fanboy and got in it with you and erik in a superman v piccolo or something like that. could have been longer this shit has been going on....

no sh!t people lack self control on DBZ threads, it tends to happen when you see threads like goku vs cyborg superman with comment that look like "goku curbstomps". people tend to argue for what they think is right even if it's just that one person that disagrees with the majority. As long as you have that one dead serious tard saying a weaker opponent stomps with no proof and blind faith, there will be a flame war.

want proof of that this applies to anything, not just DBZ? remember when that storm fanboy, rbywhatever, went on every storm thread saying she beat SS, superboy prime, etc? and every user on the site went fking nuts?

@Vance Astro:

excluding the banned years of course

i was agreeing but you seem to be missing a point within your own point. people will be people. you can huff and puff about how people make DBZ vs comic threads the way they are and you will be right but will that change the fact that DBZ vs comic threads will always attract a flame war? does this realization mean both sides with realize their stupidity and ignore the post? no, people cant resist entertaining idiot. you are holding to some idealistic hope that one day we can debate this topic in a serious matter? no. because when debating DBZ feats from both sides can not be compared in a way for a meaningful debate

that falls into my point that users will jump on any unpopular opinion, reguadless of how dumb it is, like DBZ. difference is that rby guy was trolling, DBZ fans are not. they constantly create DBZ flame wars with no feats to back up their side to END the debate

i was agreeing but you seem to be missing a point within your own point. people will be people. you can huff and puff about how people make DBZ vs comic threads the way they are and you will be right but will that change the fact that DBZ vs comic threads will always attract a flame war? 

no, people cant resist entertaining idiot. you are holding to some idealistic hope that one day we can debate this topic in a serious matter? no. because when debating DBZ feats from both sides can not be compared in a way for a meaningful debate..

that falls into my point that users will jump on any unpopular opinion, reguadless of how dumb it is, like DBZ. difference is that rby guy was trolling, DBZ fans are not. they constantly create DBZ flame wars with no feats to back up their side to END the debate

@mypasswordis1234:

1.) your quotes;

"The SSJ is a verified equation, 50x overall boost"

"You still didn't tell me where did I use any equation with something math included"

saying goku's SSJ form adds 50x power to his is an unverified data from a non existant equation DBZ fans made up.

2.) that question is valid considering the answers can close the whole argument. i will drop my entire argument if you can find a valid equation created by the director/staff of DBZ translating power level into punching power, strength, and flight speed relative to comics. other wise the inconstant feats and logical fallacies found in DBZ will be impossible to determine.

3.) they are called scientific theories because those are the most logical explanations for the universe, and the creation of earth/man without hearsay from man. i cant believe you just said the atom and the black hole isnt real but lets get back on subject. you cant say something that hasnt be proven to exist, exist. you can say it but it will not be fact. i can prove something doesnt exist if it doesnt exist.

4.) so you are stating that radtiz>the moon because of a "ki shield" lol. that makes no sense. you are seriously going to sit here and tell me that piccolo's moon busting attack will not harm radtiz because radtiz has a ki shield and the moon doesn't? LOL do you realize how big the moon its?

5.) no a joke scene was goku getting hit by a rock. the director gave goku his limits clear as day and even hd goku comfirm this by stating he could hardly move. own up to it

@Vance Astro:

when i said "you can huff and puff all day" i meant you could do it, not that you are. if a user gets banned because he cant hold his emotions in tact, its his fault. it was my fault when i got banned on my last account and probably on your last account too. i agree the DBZ blame is BS, let them get banned.

thats actually reasonable, with is saying something because i find you un-banning this stupid, but i have to agree. on the other hand if i told you that the iron patriot is 3x as strong as ultron, you ask for proof, and i couldnt provide it or gave you misinterpreted scans then then you win. if a DBZ fan told you goku was 10x as strong as superman and you asked for proof, he would pull goku > frieza > planet > supermans durability and post scans of frieza destroying a planet and a scan of superman getting K.O'ed as he slammed into a moon, which piccolo can destroy LOL insane by our standards but by DBZ logic it "makes sense." i find it easy to prove someone wrong Comic vs Comic becauses stats, feats, and obvious PIS moments are easy to point out. but DBZ? LOL good luck

LMFAO i dont that that tard was trolling dude, you remember the "storm force" LOL

I see your point.

thats actually reasonable, with is saying something because i find you un-banning this stupid, 

i find it easy to prove someone wrong Comic vs Comic becauses stats, feats, and obvious PIS moments are easy to point out. but DBZ? 

@Vance Astro:

LMFAO i dont that that tard was trolling dude, you remember the "storm force" LOL

@FLCL1 said:

@mypasswordis1234:

1.) your quotes;

"The SSJ is a verified equation, 50x overall boost"

"You still didn't tell me where did I use any equation with something math included"

saying goku's SSJ form adds 50x power to his is an unverified data from a non existant equation DBZ fans made up.

2.) that question is valid considering the answers can close the whole argument. i will drop my entire argument if you can find a valid equation created by the director/staff of DBZ translating power level into punching power, strength, and flight speed relative to comics. other wise the inconstant feats and logical fallacies found in DBZ will be impossible to determine.

3.) they are called scientific theories because those are the most logical explanations for the universe, and the creation of earth/man without hearsay from man. i cant believe you just said the atom and the black hole isnt real but lets get back on subject. you cant say something that hasnt be proven to exist, exist. you can say it but it will not be fact. i can prove something doesnt exist if it doesnt exist.

4.) so you are stating that radtiz>the moon because of a "ki shield" lol. that makes no sense. you are seriously going to sit here and tell me that piccolo's moon busting attack will not harm radtiz because radtiz has a ki shield and the moon doesn't? LOL do you realize how big the moon its?

5.) no a joke scene was goku getting hit by a rock. the director gave goku his limits clear as day and even hd goku comfirm this by stating he could hardly move. own up to it

Eternal facepalm. As I predicted it you will twist my every sentence forever to not admit you are wrong.

1. I didn't read dbz databook, others mentioned it's from that. I bet you didn't read either. Even without the SSJ there is the Kaioken 2x-20x, Goku said in the manga. You quoted me "where did I use any equation", and you didn't answered. You said this to me before I mentioned SSJ, I ask it for the 10th times.

2. No it can't close an argument if I arguing with you. For the manga there isn't a measure how +1 raise their bench-pressing strength and such. If you ask it for comics all I can say is fail, but I guess you mistyped manga. There are less inconstant feat and logical fallacies in the dbz than a comic already, so I still don't know why do you need exact numbers. Does that matter if they can blow up planet 20x size of the Earth or 30x size? Or lifting up 1million ton or 10million ton? Or moving in long distance 2xFTL or 7,49xFTL or 501.1xFTL?

3. Those wasn't always the most logical explanations and those called hypotesis or what the stage before theory because there wasn't enough proof. Later they still proved it indirectly. You said the "don't see it dont believe it" is a logical fact -> you don't see and atom with your eye -> it isn't exist. This is your logic not mine. You can't see with your eyes an atom or black hole, still believe it because there are good reasons for believe it. And what object did you get back? Dbz exist(in manga form). Also LOL that prove something exist is out of the thread, I could mention occasion where you can and where you cant prove. Stay on subject. I repeat it for 5th times? You basically said Krilin couldn't bust the moon with a higher PL than Piccolo. This is your statement, you have to prove it. If you can't, then it's remain an opinion, a belief, but not argument.

4. Yes you sure didn't watched the show and forgotten the entire durability proof you saw on this side. Or you you are provoking me with bs to make me insult you and then said: look the dbz fanboy. lol nice try

5. You have bad sense of humor. You can ask 100 person and 100 person will admit that that is a joke scene literally. And the rock scene is filler but anyway it doesn't have any relevance to the subject, stay on subject pls:D

Also for the part 3, look what I found you in the "feats and how to use them" thread:

6. Some Characters Don't Have On Panel Feats, Argue Based on Their Character

what comes to your mind is probably TOAA. Yet, would you argue that KickAss can beat him because of this?

No, you argue TOAA based on the logical implications of his character. To One Above All, while featless, is supposed to be like Comic God.

Logically, he should have no problem beating the tar out of Kick Ass if he decided KickAss was too wimpy to continue living.

In that sense, you can argue that a character can do something even if they don't have a feat of it. I can argue that Superman can beat a grown man in a fight, even though the man doesn't have any feats showing his fighting skills, based on the character of a man. Lacking a feat doesn't necessarily mean a character can't do a feat.

We take character from many different worlds and situations. If a character hasn't been exposed to a situation, and it is within the attributes of that character to accomplish a feat, then it is possible to argue it as within their power.

@minigunman123: EXACTLY.

Master Roshi destroyed the moon, around 20 billion cubic kilometers, at a power level of around 100. This would mean normal humans, at a power level of 5, could destroy around 4 billion cubic kilometers, which obviously, they can't.

Power scaling is unreliable and stupid.

@mypasswordis1234:

i am not mixing your words around im asking you to prove your statements, keep up.

1.)if you didnt read the book and i didnt why bring it up? kaioken x20 means 20x strength? i thought it meant 20x the original 1x kaioken. lol. i was refering to where you got the SSJ means 50x power data from. is there some kind of equation you are using?

2)yes it can, if the stats and feats are inconclusive to the anime, then the inconsistency can not be debated. we can determine logical fallacies in comics because amost all comic characters have stats backing them up. black panther holding down Silver surfer is PIS because he has never shown such power. get it? you it does matter

3)i guess we can disregard the scientific evidence gathered for both cases lol but as i said lets get back on subject. krillin can not bust the moon because he hasnt shown any feat on that level, that is my argument.

4)im going to disregard this point because its is that damn stupid. this entire thread is about proof, you have no proof he could and you are proving my point.

5)you are deluded. if something doesnt match up to the outragous feats you have for DBZ characters, it is BS. when a DBZ character pulls off a feat that makes no sense, its logical.

that is what you are saying

this conversation is over, you have failed to prove anything except use that same arguments i proved failed in the OP.

@FLCL1: 1. Goku said to Krillin the kaioken raise his speed, strength, hear and everything even grow his penis size. This was the state. When he say kaiken that is the technique. Meaning around 2x base Goku. Goku had over 8000PL. Vegeta has 18000PL IIRC. When he first used Kaioken Vegeta beaten him, so Goku had between 16k-18k. Then Goku shouted SANBAI KAIOKEN, 3x Kaioken, his PL raised 24k and beaten Vegeta. Goku was harder, faster, stronger. There is the name 3x Kaioken and it causing 3x bigger PL. The character stated it and showed it. In short: After he said it raising his strength and he shout 3X KAIOKEN, how much do you think it raises? I got the ssj50x data from forums. You can convince me it's more or less. I am not using any equation and that's what I asked 10times. You said I am using. I am not using.

2. The 40ton thing is inconsistency and it's debated. Black Panther case don't care me but he is stated to be 1 tonner, that's why that's a pis. Or you seem he failed to lift something. Or such. I could say for the fun "wow I never thought BP is so strong".

I still don't want to get away from the main case. You said pl are abc logic. Prove the transitive relation is wrong or dbz is not working like that.

3. And my counter argument is, the dbz is workin' with transitive relation. In theory he should be able to destroy a moon. He hasn't shown he can't so there is no contradiction what would make it invalid. Even the comicvine staff or mod explained that we can't only accept things we saw.

4. I have proof I am just not getting into it because 1this thread is not about it 2You act like you never heard it and never want to accept it.

5. That's what you say. It make no sense to you and it doesn't match up for any previously feat. You asked how is that scene was a joke scene. I explained you it's literally a joke scene. You said it's no. You don't get the joke or don't want to. You deluded by yourself. Ask anybody that was a joke/funny scene or a serious, story related feat like when superman lifted the earth's mass.

I win in predict, you twist out my sentence and when I prove you are wrong you being only more skeptic, lying about obvious things.

This conversation over, with a result who doesn't like dbz will agree with you who like and not agree you you call troll fanboy.

@Vance Astro: how the hell is he not banned? btw read mypasswordis's post, and you will see new sh!t these guys make up for their characters to win

@mypasswordis1234: saying you win, doesnt mean you win. you didnt prove anything....at all. you used the same logic i stated was inconsistent in the OP. you have yet to post any legit stats that can measure the power of DBZ characters from the creators of the cartoon. you have yet to prove krillin can blow up a plaent without using ABC logic because krillin has not shown the power to do so. you didnt even take the time to PROVE this ki shield theory because i've never seen this stated in the show.

your argument lacks any proof. you SAYING they can do something isnt proof. Me saying they CAN NOT do something due to lack of evidence is logic

@Vance Astro: how the hell is he not banned? 

@Vance Astro: hes a likable pot of friendship? doubt it

@Vance Astro: hes a likable pot of friendship? 

@FLCL1 said:

@Vance Astro: how the hell is he not banned? btw read mypasswordis's post, and you will see new sh!t these guys make up for their characters to win

@mypasswordis1234: saying you win, doesnt mean you win. you didnt prove anything....at all. you used the same logic i stated was inconsistent in the OP. you have yet to post any legit stats that can measure the power of DBZ characters from the creators of the cartoon. you have yet to prove krillin can blow up a plaent without using ABC logic because krillin has not shown the power to do so. you didnt even take the time to PROVE this ki shield theory because i've never seen this stated in the show.

your argument lacks any proof. you SAYING they can do something isnt proof. Me saying they CAN NOT do something due to lack of evidence is logic

You don't say? I said it for my predict. You were who said it yourself you win, so read that bold sentence if I would have wrote to you. Also you said the conversion is over.

Try to refute my points or you just proving that you can't with the posts like this you still stating things and you have time to write these, but these refuted in my posts.

@Vance Astro: how much is he paying you to say these things? 300$? 400$? my god....he's gotten to all the moderators!

@Vance Astro: how much is he paying you to say these things? 300$? 400$? my god....he's gotten to all the moderators!

@Vance Astro: maybe i was gone long than i thought and he actually change.......at least supertide or what ever his name is, is gone

at least supertide or what ever his name is, is gone

@Vance Astro said:

@FLCL1 said:

at least supertide or what ever his name is, is gone

Is he?

dude if he is still around you might as well bring klancar back, at least he didnt start outrageous religious debates.

if im going to get trolled let it be entertaining

@Vance Astro said:

@FLCL1 said:

at least supertide or what ever his name is, is gone

Is he?

dude if he is still around you might as well bring klancar back, at least he didnt start outrageous religious debates.

if im going to get trolled let it be entertaining

Alright...cracks knuckles. Here we go...

This is not (just) directed at the OP, but at battle forum users in general.

• If you see a mismatch thread, flag it. This is simple, it's in the battle forum rules, there is a thread pinned to the top of the battle board SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THIS SUBJECT, you've got that nice little flag button at the bottom of your screen, it should be super easy. There's no need to post in a mismatch thread, other than to civilly let the OP know that it's a mismatch. This goes for all threads, but especially potentially contentious threads.
• The decision to unban Anime vs Manga was a MUTUAL decision between the active mods, brought forth by Vance. The basis of this decision was that it's unfair to ban a certain type of thread just because they attract a certain kind of conduct, especially when there are plenty of people who handle themselves fine. The argument that I put forth in favor of this motion was that Dex and his infinite army of alts pretty much constantly raise hell on threads that involve a DC character vs a Marvel character. We don't ban those just to make things easier and cut down on that, there's no reason to ban a whole genre from the site just because the same crew of people can't seem to control themselves.
• If you don't have the maturity level to conduct yourself according to the site's rules, that's not on anybody but you. If you enter a thread and are not able to civilly debate and counter somebody's points/posts without resorting to name-calling and other tactics, then don't enter that thread.
• If you see somebody trolling or otherwise derailing a thread, then flag them and move on. There's no need for you to go in and resort to the same tactics. That doesn't put you in the right, it just means that you're both going to get spoken to about antics.
• If you are debating and going around in circles and feel that you cannot adequately continue without A. losing your cool B. smashing your head against the keyboard or C. some other thing, then be the bigger man and bow out. Debating is not about winning (it's a shame that so many people think it is). It's about a back and forth of sharing points and evidence and LEARNING something from that discourse. If you feel that you are no longer gaining knowledge from a debate, that's a good time to say you should probably bow out.
• If you KNOW that a certain type of thread sets you off, or attracts people that drive you crazy...then shouldn't it be common sense to avoid that kind of thread? If you know that something isn't going to be fun for you, it seems kind of counterproductive to rush straight into it, right?
• If somebody is trolling you or insulting you, do NOT return the favor. Flag them and move on. I don't know why I even have to say this anymore.

I'm sure I'll have more to add later.

@Mercy_:

• Can we get more chances to flag? Some days this site gets dumb and a lot of stupid threads pop up, unfortunately we can't flag THAT much.
• Anime vs Comics is fine, don't understand why anyone is complaining, as Vance or someone said, it's the users not the characters.
• Agreed on everything else.

@TheCerealKillz: Unfortunately not a mod decision. I've played around in the past with setting certain users to negative amounts of karma, but it seems to reset to zero after a day has passed. Any changes on how that works is entirely up to staff, the most that the mods can do is reset you when you ask for it. Just shoot us a mass PM or PM a mod you see online and we'll be more than happy to set you to zero.

@Mercy_: when it comes to trolling, moderators kind of remind of those guys that keep telling a bullied kid "its ok little jimmy just tell an adult and they will help you!" and when the kid does tell he gets his a$$ whooped after school, lol. since we are pretty much anonymous and physical interaction is unlikely i agree with that completely, i just thought it was funny how similar it was

since we are on the subject of trolling; i dont think you should get warnings for trolling unless you use obvious insults. If you can make someone angry without directly insulting them i think that is truly a rare and hilarious skill

@FLCL1 said:

@Mercy_: when it comes to trolling, moderators kind of remind of those guys that keep telling a bullied kid "its ok little jimmy just tell an adult and they will help you!" and when the kid does tell he gets his a$$ whooped after school, lol. since we are pretty much anonymous and physical interaction is unlikely i agree with that completely, i just thought it was funny how similar it was

since we are on the subject of trolling; i dont think you should get warnings for trolling unless you use obvious insults. If you can make someone angry without directly insulting them i think that is truly a rare and hilarious skill

That would be an accurate analogy if we didn't do anything when we did see trolling. We don't victim blame, but you make yourself a whole lot less of the victim (I don't mean you specifically, I'm using it generally) when your'e right back there insulting back. Literally all people have to do is flag or PM a mod. I've said it to people in the past and I'll say it here again for transparency - you have very little ground to stand on when you come to us about somebody trolling or abusing you and when we check the thread, we find that you've been doing the same.

I'm going to be blunt. That's ridiculous and will never happen. Trolling at it's base is supposed to be amusing and when done right, it is. Unfortunately, that's not how the majority of CV (or the internet, for that matter) approach it. If you're good naturedly ribbing on somebody that you're friends with, then yeah, we're not gonna punish for that (providing it's mutual, examples of this would be myself and iLLituracy). But if you're sole purpose in a thread (or what that purpose has ended up as) is stirring up trouble, inciting rage in others and all that fun stuff, then of course it's punishable.

@Mercy_:

Ah okay, thanks for the info.