A World without Money, are you excited?

I'd hesitate about a robotic revolution, because many people are afraid of robots replacing them in their jobs. Its gonna take more than a single lifetime and several generations for a robot-based society.

And AI development yielded rather disappointing results so far, which shows the extreme complexity of the human brain and hence the difficulty to simulate even a modicum of these brain processes.

In short, its good to know the global trends in our lives, but moderate your own expectations on how fast society will evolve.

And for those who are working (including me), it would be a good time to figure out what kind of skills you want to pick up that robots can't do by themselves, in order to retain value and relevance in the workforce.

Wouldn't happen, if money were to become obsolete (which is very unlikely as there are many jobs robots can't do), the rich would just monopolise something else.

@donatellorawks said:

People losing their jobs to automation is inevitable, as CGP Grey said, "The usual argument is that unions will prevent it. But history is filled with workers who fought technology that would replace them and the workers always loose. Economics always wins and there are huge incentives across wildly diverse industries to adopt autos."

But AI development is getting better and better every year, eventually, AI will be able to simulate the complexity of the human mind.

that's the problem, according to CGP Grey's video, there won't be a lot of jobs that automation can't replace, but you are correct, there are jobs that robots at the moment cannot replace, e.g. robots can't really replace computer programmers and engineers, well, not yet anyway, but eventually they can be replaced, as I said, self-learning AIs are being developed as we speak, but there are jobs that a robot cannot really replace because they lack emotion, and I doubt that robots will develop emotions, jobs that require emotions are psychologists, therapists, councilors, teachers, priests, but unfortunately these jobs only represent a small amount of the workforce, it's not enough to make money flow, at least, not the type of flow we're experiencing today.

a world where money isn't used; and its supposed to be created by the money hungry people who control everything? thats never going to happen.

@argonvegell: Yes, it's not enough to have a lot of money, but that isn't the point. The point is that there still will be money, regardless of amount, and until we reach a point where robots can decipher and experience emotion to the same level a human can, there will still be a need for money. Whilst I do believe it will happen eventually (touted for around 2050 iirc), it's not happening for a while.

If automation replaces a lot of jobs, how will money flow? Without jobs, no income, without income, no money flow, without money flow, money won't be able to exist.

@argonvegell: thats exactly my point, call me a conspiracy theorist but i don't believe politicians will allow this to happen. Similar to how so many engines still run on gas when we as humans are more than capable of making more environmentally friendly and less resource sucking engines.

But what would the money be used on though, you can't pay a robot, robots don't need salaries, don't need food, water, shelter, vacations, the rich wouldn't really need money either, if robots can do a job without cost, then goods and services will be mostly be free.

A radical change will happen in the near future, if we continue to develop our technology, and this change cannot be stopped by Big Business nor the politicians, and I believe this will happen soon, according to the WEF, by 2020, millions of jobs will be replaced by automation, so millions of unemployments.

@argonvegell: Land and peoples time mostly. Even if we disregard practically everything else as "robots will do it" and say that all food will be free regardless of rarity or any other variables, you don't honestly expect teachers, therapists and other people in jobs that are needed to work for free do you? And if there is no money and nothing to monopolise, why would (former) rich people be able to live in mansions when "poor" people still have to live in terrible houses?

We're all screwed

You need something as a reward. Nobody will work for nothing; there needs to be a motivation for people to strive, to learn, to do more than just sit at home. "Personal growth" is not enough motivation; you need tangible benefits, IE: money. Without motivations, you'd have less scientists and doctors, and over time, we would become stagnant in regard technological growth.

@just_banter said:

If the basic human needs for survival will mostly be free, then what does computer programmers, engineers, doctors, psychologists, therapists, councilors, teachers, etc, need for money, why would they want to get paid in a society of no money?

"The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of Humanity."

A great example of future workers is the Linux development community, all over the world, there are thousands of people writing codes, developing software, reviewing and patching security holes for the Linux kernel, which is the lifeblood of the many Linux distros, and out of these thousands of people helping to build the Linux kernel, almost none of these people are getting paid for their work, why, because they don't ask for it, they develop Linux because they have a passion for Linux and want to see it thrive well into the future, Linux for them is a labor of love, and this will be the mindset of people in the future, they will see Humanity as a labor of love, and not a labor of corporate greed, they will work to better themselves and the rest of Humanity.

Rich and poor people in this society of no money will live in nice homes.

The Ferengi tell the deadbeat Captain that it was that type of thinking that got his starship repossessed.

Machines will always need maintenance, people will always need to run things, you will always need scientists / engineers to advance technology, and energy isn't free. People need an education to perform the aforementioned tasks. Let's assume that people will be taught by robots: what motivation does anybody have to actually go through the education process or to perform the jobs afterward? A desire for personal growth? A need to help society out of the goodness of their hearts? No. People need motivation - without motivation, nothing will stop people from just becoming consumers.

@argonvegell: Not seeing it. Some people would be for that, but that's a small number, as most are incredibly greedy when it comes down to it and wouldn't want to put time and effort into the betterment of humanity when they can retire, and live extremely comfortably for free from 18 onwards. This world would have no education, no scientists, no engineers, therapists, or any other job in general. Nobody in their right mind would do work like that for free when they could be living it up at no extra cost.

And people wouldn't live in homes just as good as one another, that would involve millionaires wilfully having mansions pulverised and giving land away for free. Something like that will never, ever happen. That leaves people more well off then others for doing the same thing, that being nothing. People would get pissed, people would die for their mansions and land.

Well, Industry 4.0 is coming, jobs being replaced by automation is coming, whether you accept it or not, things will change, dangerously and radically, it will change, capitalism not be able to survive in this radical change, you are correct, AIs will need to be designed and repaired, but still, the jobs of programmers, engineers, scientists, astronauts represents a small percentage of the workforce, if 99% of jobs are automated and only 1% of jobs are available to humans, then how will money flow, people gaining income only happens when a lot of people are employed, which won't be the case.

@just_banter said:

Why do you assume that poor people will still live in terrible homes in the future?

@argonvegell: Because there's not much space in ghetto's and the like for everyone to have nice homes. Either way though, unless everyone gets a mansion people will still be pissed.

@just_banter said:

The Needs of the Many Outweigh the Needs of the Few.

Nobody would just laze around without doing nothing, if people do that, then the society would break down, as JediXMan said, AI's still need maintenance, the payment would be self assurance that their society won't die, that represents that needs of the many, so nobody in the right minds would allow their society to break down, they would go through fire to assure that their society is well and healthy, because they don't, they die too, they would work for the survival of their species and not for monetary gain, I'd take living over money any day.

@argonvegell: You might but there'd be a hell of a lot of people with a "someone else will" attitude, and by a hell of a lot, I mean a strong, strong majority.

@just_banter said:

You'd be surprised, people will become motivated by survival, human beings are naturally survivors, they will do what must be done, not for money, power or fame, but for survival, their motivation to fix the broken robots would be survival, which is a good motivator.

Yea we need to get rid of it, it's shown to corrupt the vast majority of humans to disturbing degrees.

No.

Agree, money does more harm than good, it causes inequality, because right now, we categorize people by class based on the amount of money they have or lack thereof, those with some of it are the middle class, those with lots of it are rich, while those with too much of it are the super rich, and those with without it are poor, basically in today's society, if you don't have money, you're as good as dead, and this reality causes a lot of people to commit suicide, because of this sad sad sad system we have to today.

All it takes is one person to hoard something valuable, and it all falls down. They use it to attain things, or, others discover it, envy them, and well... greed will do the rest.

As good as such a Utopia sounds, realistically, it would never work.

@argonvegell: so many thing you do not understand, it is not bout money its about possesion of things other people do not posses. If money is not around, there is plenty of other things. Whoever has more cows, cars, buildings, machines, wifes, stamps etc... money will be replaced with other things.

@botanix said:

But how would the concept of possessions work in a society that is run by automation? The goods and services will become mostly free, because they will be mostly be done by AI, you can't pay AI, AIs don't need salaries, don't need food, water, shelter, vacations, if they can do a job, e.g. agriculture, transportation, without cost, then goods and services will be mostly be free.

How does barter work in a society run by automation? The phrase 'keeping up with the Joneses' wouldn't matter anymore, because there would be equality.

@argonvegell: in our world there is no such thing as "without cost". Ever heared of tax :) ? It does not cost a country that you have a pet, yet you still pay tax for it.

Goods will never be trull free because resources are not untlimited. But lets say they are free, than what? Because resources are limited everyone is allowed to have 1 car, because there is not enough resources for 2 cars for everyone. Everyone gets one, everyone but an elite. They can have more cars. You see the concept now? Same with buildings and everything else. You dont need money to have more than others, and there will always be people who want to possess more than others. Anything is more valuable to us if its not possessed by others. This is in our nature...

@botanix said:

You make it seems that greed is part of our nature, but it isn't, we weren't born greedy, greed is a behavior that is acquired because of the society we have today, but greed can be remedied, it only be cured if we are willing to teach our children true values and ethics.

Okay I agree, goods and services can't really be free, because of limited resources, but there's an idea that I heard, it's an idea in response on what to do when automation replaces all of human labor, leaving humans with no jobs or income, the idea is, guaranteed income, which you can watch on here below, the video is only a minute and forty seconds long, give it watch.

CGP Grey's "Humans Need Not Apply": A Solution - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnJTWzf8kH4

Too long, didn't compute.

I am not saying the idea is bad, it is a great idea and if it worked it would make the life so much better but it will not work. This is not who we are because we ARE born greedy. Some more than others, but everyone wants more and more. People have been greedy since the beginning, well before the money were introduced. If it was not money, it was cows, caves, status in the group etc. You need to consider other things than money. If you ask anyone, if they want free money, of course they will take it, but lets put money aside. As if they want bigger house, faster car, better clothes, bigger tv - all for free. You will have a hard time finding anyone who does not want any of that. And considering resources are limited, goods will be limited to, so it will not change anything. There is always going to be a guy, who wants not 1 car, but 10... you know what i mean.

@sophia89 said:

You can't compare hundreds of years ago to today, hundreds of years ago, humans only had primitive tools that can only be worked with only one power source, human power, which made human labor in very much demand, and in order for humans to work, they needed an incentive, which was money, however, humans back then didn't have the technology that we are taking for granted today, e.g. automated machines of all kinds and computers,which make human labor in less demand, and as we develop this technology further, we make human labor less and less in demand, until we make human labor unnecessary, unless we do a Luddite Fallacy, then AIs taking over 99% of human labor is inevitable, and how would money flow if 99% of all jobs are automated?

Luddite Fallacy is a event that happened some point in history where a group of English textile workers called the Luddites engaged in violently breaking up machines, because they feared that the new machines were taking their jobs and livelihoods.

Greed isn't an incurable disease, greed can be cure if we teach our children true values and ethics, but in today's schools, children are taught to embrace capitalism and to live with it, capitalism breeds greed and corruption, as I said, greed is a behavior that is encouraged because of the society we have today.

@argonvegell: People will always want what they can't have, and it is impossible to give everyone whatever they want.

@argonvegell: I do believe we can minimize greed if we teach our children right.

Minimize, yes.

But do you agree that with the coming of the 4th Industrial Revolution, that the power of money would be lessened somewhat, because today, if people don't have money, their as good as dead, and this causes a lot of suicides, do you agree that that view point would be lessened, that the need and importance of money for survival won't be a necessity to living?

Looking back, i don't see that happening any time soon. Most greedy people rule this world... It will not change fast. Why do they have so much money in the first place? Richest people in the world would be still wealthy having only 0.001-0.003% of what they have now. Do You see them sharing with other people? No. And i do not mean "charity" its not really sharing... Why would that change? Bill gates could pick 1.000.000 people and give everyone 40k USD, he could do that, he didn't. Neither did anyone else. So why do You think that would change? Whoever has for example machines that produces food, manufacture cars etc why would they give them away? Some will, sure, but most will not. People like having more than others, it is in our nature. Even if they have enough they would not mind having more, but why exactly if they already have enough? Survival and all... it will not change

They may give You some staff for free, but they will find something that you want and need and you will have to work for it, one way or another... just so they could feel superior.

no

@botanix said:

Here's the problem I see with the greedy rich people, how would they make their millions if millions of people are out of work because of automation, as I understand it, automation eliminates the need to pay for a worker's salary, food, water, shelter, clothing, medical needs, which contribute to the overall price of goods and services, AIs do not require such things and thus is eliminated from the overall price and so, the producer of the automated machines wouldn't make as much money because goods and services would be cheaper than it is today.

You don't seem to see the problem here. Why would they need to make their millions if they already have their millions - and i do not mean in money only? Money is not the only goods. Lets say you instantly take away everyone money. Who is more worth, you or a guy who owns factories?

Do you make food, clothes etc? You make nothing, You are a consumer, You go to work, make cash. You make cash not for Yourself, You make cash so they can buy staff not you. We work for the riches people here, not the other way around. If there is no work, why would You get any staff for free?

Don't get too excited, world without money is the end of the world, for most of us. For now, they need us. They needs us make food, cars, boats. phones everything... everything they need and want. What happens if they no longer need us? We become useless, and nature does not like useless. Poor ( 99% of us ) will be worth less than nothing. This is exactly what is going to happen.

the producer of the automated machines wouldn't make as much money because goods and services would be cheaper than it is today

They will not need to have money, money is just a goods that allows you, for now to trade them for other goods. They will still have factories, farms etc. You will have neither.

But lets even say they will "share" food, clothes, cars, meds, everything. Do You know why they would not need to own money? Because they will own you. Every aspect of Your life will be totally dependent on them.

@botanix said:

It looks like we're heading in that direction, according to the World Economic Forums, by 2020, millions of jobs will be replaced by automation,and that will continue until human labor becomes unnecessary, and I don't think there's anyway to stop this, unless we do as the Luddites did.

So should we do as the Luddites did then?

@argonvegell:

There is nothing we can do. What they did, did not work, did it... Not in a long run. It will happen, but not as soon as they think, people will protest and drag it for a while.. but only for a while. If in the nature, something is not needed, than it simply is not needed. 99% of us will not be needed to them. They may share, but not for "free" as You think. Guys in power will be Kings, no I am sorry not Kings... Gods... and we are going to be slaves, and i mean slaves... Do You want to be somebody's property, because we are all going to be. Are You still excited :) ?

There was a movie recently with Matt Damon, I do not remember the title... This is how its going to look like, more and less.

@botanix said:

I still have hope that Gene Roddenberry's vision of the future that is Star Trek will and can still be a reality, so yes, I'm still excited by what this automated future might bring.

Should've known that OP is a TNG nerd.

@argonvegell: I still have hope that Gene Roddenberry's vision of the future that is Star Trek will and can still be a reality, so yes, I'm still excited by what this automated future might bring.

Life isn't a star trek. People in power are greedy and will be, otherwise they would not care having all the power. They want to own You, this is the only reason the are in power in the first place. It will never change, this is our nature. People who rule this world are not good guys....

@jonez120 said:

What's wrong with being a TNG fan? BTW, I'm not a fan of JJ Abrams' Star Trek.

If I learned anything from the Phantom Tollbooth, that is it wrong to be a Gelatinous Giant, it is wrong to fear change, because as it stands, the 4th Industrial Revolution is coming and there is no way to stop it, human labor will become obsolete, change is happening, all we can do is hope for the future.

@argonvegell: I'm a TNG nerd too, ahaha.

cool, I though it was obvious, because I'd been quoting Picard and Spock throughout this thread lol.