You don't need to be faster than sound to dodge a bullet....

Avatar image for maverick_6
Maverick_6

10436

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

But you do need to be superhuman, of course.

This is just me sort of trying to defeat this trend by proving that you do not need to be supersonic to dodge a bullet, something I've already proven. Though, that thread is a little long, I'll put the most crucial statement up here first.

If we assume that point blank range is 10 feet and an AK-47's muzzle velocity is 2350 ft/s, then a bullet will take 4.25 ms to hit. In order to dodge a bullet shot at your center of mass, that you would need to move half your bodies width (1 ft for estimation) in this time. 1ft/4.25ms gives 235ft/s or 160mph. This is approximately the take off speed of a airliner.

To compound the problem you are starting from stopped which means you need to accelerate up to speed. To cover the same distance in the same time with an average speed of 235 ft/s and constant acceleration would mean final speed would need to be 470ft/s (coincidentally the speed of the fastest nerve impulse). 470ft/s in 4.25ms give an acceleration of 110600 ft/s2 or 3437g.

Thus you need to be able to accelerate at at least 3437 time as fast as you would fall. Good new, the bullet doesn't kill you. Bad news, you are already dead (and so is your mechanical watch).

Basically, this just says that if are to dodge a mach 2 bullet from ten feet away, you must move 160 miles per hour and pull 3437 Gs. That's a lot of acceleration force, mind you. Imagine feeling 3437 times your weight at the point of impact. A human can survive perhaps 100 Gs, induced in a car crash for a very limited amount of time.

G-Force table courtesy of wikipedia.

Typical examples of g-force

Main article: Orders of magnitude (acceleration)

Exampleg-force*
The gyro rotors in Gravity Probe B and the free-floating proof masses in the TRIAD I navigation satellite[20]0 g
A ride in the Vomit Comet 0 g
Standing on the Moon at its equator0.1654 g
Standing on the Earth at sea level–standard1 g
Saturn V moon rocket just after launch1.14 g
Bugatti Veyron from 0 to 100 km/h in 2.4 s1.55 g
Space Shuttle, maximum during launch and reentry3 g
Gravitron amusement ride2.5-3 g
High-g roller coasters[9]:3403.5–6.3 g
Top Fueldrag racing world record of 4.4 s over 1/4 mile4.2 g
First World War Aircraft Sopwith Camel, Fokker D.VII, Fokker Dr.1, SPAD S.XIII, Nieuport 17 in a steep dive or back or front looping.4.5–7 g
Formula One car, maximum under heavy braking5.4 g
Formula One car, peak lateral in turns[21]5–6 g
Luge, maximum expected at the Whistler Sliding Centre5.2 g
Standard, full aerobatics certified glider+7/−5 g
Apollo 16 on reentry[22]7.19 g
Typical max. turn in an aerobatic plane or fighter jet9–12 g
Typical to max. turn in Alpine ski racing5–12 g
Death or serious injury likely[citation needed]> 25 g
Maximum for human on a rocket sled46.2 g
Sprint missile100 g
Brief human exposure survived in crash[23][24]> 100 g
Highest recorded g-force ever survived (Kenny Bräck, 2003)[25][better source needed][26][better source needed]214 g
Space gun with a barrel length of 1 km and a muzzle velocity of 6 km/s, as proposed by Quicklaunch (assuming constant acceleration)1,800 g
Shock capability of mechanical wrist watches[27]> 5,000 g
V8 Formula One engine, maximum piston acceleration [28]8,600 g
Rating of electronics built into military artillery shells[29]15,500 g
9×19mm Parabellum handgun bullet (average along the length of the barrel)[30][better source needed]60,000 g
9 × 19 Parabellum handgun bullet, peak[31][better source needed]190,000 g
Analytical ultracentrifuge spinning at 60,000 rpm, at the bottom of the analysis cell (7.2 cm)[32]300,000 g
Mean acceleration of a proton in the Large Hadron Collider[33]190,000,000 g
Acceleration from a wakefield plasma accelerator[34]8.9×1020 g

* Including contribution from resistance to gravity.

† Directed 40 degrees from horizontal.

Dodging a sniper bullet....

....Is pretty impressive. But isn't actually indicator of supersonic speed when fired from miles away.

I don't need research to figure this out. The fastest of sniper bullets can clock in at around 4000 feet per second or 2727.273 miles per hour, around mach 3.5.

So, let's assume the sniper is 1 mile away. Speed equals distance over time. The man is one mile away. 5280 feet(1 mile)/4000 FPS=1.31 seconds before the bullet hits you

Not to lowball snipers, but if someone knew the bullet was coming, a regular human could get out of dodge of that. Indeed, there was actually an attempt to make an invention that enabled people to dodge sniper bullets.

Of course, this is a ways off and it naturally got canceled. But again, 1.31 seconds is quite a long time. You can't hear a bullet being fired at you because it is faster than sound. So theoretically, if you saw the lightspeed muzzle flash, a regular person can dodge a bullet from a great distance. (Too bad most snipers have suppressors to mask the flash.)

The point....

I felt like making a thread for this because I believe some characters should be reevaluated as to whether or not they are truly supersonic or not. Certain characters have many leads and indicators that they are no faster than sound but they dodge bullets long after they are fired from only a few feet away. And them being supersonic can fly in the face of everything that character is presented as.

So, thoughts?

Avatar image for deactivated-5bb7f2e29af78
deactivated-5bb7f2e29af78

1835

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Reactionary speed is different than travel speed, I think you got the two mixed up.

Avatar image for nuclearrebirth
NuclearRebirth

680

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

@maverick_6:

Very good analysis. People tend to think that dodging an attack is purely about the speed at which you perceive stimuli. However a character's ability to dodge is also dependent on their being able to move out of the way. So "travel speed" and "reaction speed" are intertwined.

Avatar image for tsoj
tsoj

3602

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#4  Edited By tsoj

These are good points, and I feel that this makes a lot of sense.

So if someone were to dodge a, say, 102,900m/s (Mach 300) projectile from 10 meters away, rather than a Mach 300 reaction speed feet, it would be a Mach 30 feat? (10m/102,900m = .0000971817s, 1m/.000091817s = 10,290m/s = Mach 30) Interesting...

Avatar image for linsanel_doctor
linsanel_Doctor

8706

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

interesting..

Avatar image for buildhare
buildhare

11606

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@maverick_6: Nice Analysis

What are your thoughts on Ozymandias's bullet catch in Watchmen?

Avatar image for bat_girl_cc
Bat_Girl_CC

6179

Forum Posts

4

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

Here's the thing...dodging a bullet pretty much means you're at least somewhere between peak-human and low-level-meta-human speed.

The problem is, over 75% of the "so-called" bullet-dodging feats, that you see on the battle-threads, actually aren't bullet-dodging showings, but actually aim-dodging showings...where the characters doing the dodging, only move faster than the shooter can react/pull the trigger, not the actual bullet.

This may surprise alot of people, but very few street-levelers have actually dodged one single bullet one single time in their entire comic book history.

Here's a exemple of aim-dodging showing:

No Caption Provided

And here's a couple of bullet-dodging exemples:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

See the difference?...if you don't actually see the character dodging the bullet, then you have no way of knowing it for sure, and aim-dodging its obviously much easier to perform than bullet-dodging.

Avatar image for maverick_6
Maverick_6

10436

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@maverick_6: Nice Analysis

What are your thoughts on Ozymandias's bullet catch in Watchmen?

I only watched the movie and saw his hand move.

But I mean, there is a video of a guy who cut a BB pellet moving 500~ mph from maybe a a few dozen meter away. He didn't actually need to move at 500 mph. He just predicted where it went. Oz could have easily done the bullet equivilent to aim dodging, and have caught the bullet by predicting where it would be, outmaneuvering the trigger rather than the shooter.

It's not too implausible. Though catching a bullet with your bare hands would just cause it to tear through your flesh. Hence, it makes more sense for him to use gloves in the movie.

@bat_girl_cc:

Completely spot on.

Cass is ridiculous and there is no way to explain her without her just having having superhuman stats. She does it consistently and it puts her in the supersonic range. Though I'd buy that she isn't supersonic, because picturing her running along with a speedster doesn't sit well with me.

Her just accelerating very quickly, nigh instantly, would actually coincide with all of her feats, and probably could coincide with some magic, Qi Gong martial arts type myth stuff or something. (Because that is one ability I hear monks can have.) It keeps her out of the realm of speedsters but would enable her to do freaky, wesker type stuff. She was one of the characters I was thinking about when I made this.

Her and Spider-man actually.

Avatar image for heroup2112
HeroUp2112

18447

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

This is a very cool essay for me, because I have a decent grasp on scientific theory, but very little on practical application because I have a no kidding learning disability with math. I'm good at common sense, but less so at explaining the physics part.

What I've tried to point out countless times, about aim dodging and bullet timing, YOU've given me solid evidence for @bat_girl_cc pointed out pretty much the same thing on this thread too. A lot of things might seem like bullet timing, but with a human or even peak human character, it's pretty much impossible. As you've pointed out, even if they could move that fast, their bodies wouldn't be able to handle the g-forces, or am I misunderstanding something?

Avatar image for jashro44
jashro44

57695

Forum Posts

253

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#10  Edited By jashro44

@cadencev2 I've been trying to tell you this for a while now...

Avatar image for cadencev2
cadencev2

696

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#11  Edited By cadencev2

@jashro44 said:

@cadencev2 I've been trying to tell you this for a while now...

No duh. Dodging Bullets is as much aim dodging than others. Still, depends on the ammo round speed FPS and how far it was fired. As the OP admitted. There is also the two questions of when the bullet was fired and your reactions after it was fired.

Myth Busters are ready proven it was impossible to dodge a rifle round unless it was SUPER FAR AWAY unless you have super human speeds in the mach range to process the threat, determine how to react, and then react.

In short there is many, many factors involve in dodging a bullet to determine a speed. This thread is not covering all that, just bare minimum common sense.

Avatar image for jashro44
jashro44

57695

Forum Posts

253

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@cadencev2: But you always say characters are "faster than bullets" when they do bullet timing feats.....

Avatar image for cadencev2
cadencev2

696

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@jashro44: untrue. If that's the case, then I would say Batman, Cap America, even Buffy would be Mach speeds. They are not.

:/

Avatar image for jashro44
jashro44

57695

Forum Posts

253

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@jashro44: untrue. If that's the case, then I would say Batman, Cap America, even Buffy would be Mach speeds. They are not.

:/

I guess I was wrong.....I swore you've said that before.

Avatar image for cadencev2
cadencev2

696

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@jashro44: maybe a year and half ago with the SpiderMan dodging the Mach 3.5 bullet after it was fired.

Avatar image for maverick_6
Maverick_6

10436

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@jashro44 said:

@cadencev2 I've been trying to tell you this for a while now...

No duh. Dodging Bullets is as much aim dodging than others. Still, depends on the ammo round speed FPS and how far it was fired. As the OP admitted. There is also the two questions of when the bullet was fired and your reactions after it was fired.

Myth Busters are ready proven it was impossible to dodge a rifle round unless it was SUPER FAR AWAY unless you have super human speeds in the mach range to process the threat, determine how to react, and then react.

The premise of the thread is me saying that you don't really need to be supersonic to dodge a bullet. The key is accelerating quickly.

Not necessary. Though you need superhuman stats to legitimately dodge it, this is the bare minimum speed of a typical AK.

Of course, pulling 2000 Gs would be 200 x worse than 50-60~ mph car crash. It would liquefy you if you accelerated like that. But being supersonic isn't quite necessary yet.

Avatar image for deactivated-5a04a566e9ae3
deactivated-5a04a566e9ae3

12864

Forum Posts

205

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

so much nerd

Avatar image for jedixman
JediXMan

42943

Forum Posts

35961

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 16

#18 JediXMan  Moderator
@buildhare said:

@maverick_6: Nice Analysis

What are your thoughts on Ozymandias's bullet catch in Watchmen?

I only watched the movie and saw his hand move.

But I mean, there is a video of a guy who cut a BB pellet moving 500~ mph from maybe a a few dozen meter away. He didn't actually need to move at 500 mph. He just predicted where it went. Oz could have easily done the bullet equivilent to aim dodging, and have caught the bullet by predicting where it would be, outmaneuvering the trigger rather than the shooter.

It's not too implausible. Though catching a bullet with your bare hands would just cause it to tear through your flesh. Hence, it makes more sense for him to use gloves in the movie.

In my opinion, the comic version was essentially aim dodging, as you're describing. He was in the process of moving his hand and body before Silk Spectre fired, and he moved with the bullet, predicting where it would go.

No Caption Provided

Also, good analysis.

Avatar image for cadencev2
cadencev2

696

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@maverick_6: only few things to. While the math looks right, and the logic is sound (pun intended) the argument is to apply real world science to characters who defy logic in durability, strength, ect. If you were trying to apply this to myth busters real world, sure. I just not getting why Jash tag me in this.

Also most characters are close to sonic (Cap, Batman, Wolverine, Buffy) or at sonic (Iron Fist, Sonic), very few legit super sonic (Luther Strode, Spiderman) in combat speed.

Though reaction speed is a whole another debate.

Avatar image for neongamewave
NeonGameWave

19333

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Very interesting.

Avatar image for krleavenger
KrleAvenger

26354

Forum Posts

63045

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 114

Indeed it is interesting.

Avatar image for petey_is_spidey
Petey_is_Spidey

11855

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 11

Reactionary speed is different than travel speed, I think you got the two mixed up.

Avatar image for maverick_6
Maverick_6

10436

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@solarwavealpha said:

Reactionary speed is different than travel speed, I think you got the two mixed up.

I suppose so. But I mean, even if someone had lightspeed reflexes, wouldn't necessarily make them fast enough to dodge a bullet in itself.

Aim dodge is another story, however.

@jedixman said:

In my opinion, the comic version was essentially aim dodging, as you're describing. He was in the process of moving his hand and body before Silk Spectre fired, and he moved with the bullet, predicting where it would go.

No Caption Provided

Also, good analysis.

Yep. Definitely aim dodging, in my opinion.

I generally head canon that most any peak human is actually aim dodging. Even batman admits deadshot can tag him but that the only reason he doesn't is that he just doesn't want to.

Character like Cassandra Cain are about as "Peak Human" as a standard one piece character.

Avatar image for bat_girl_cc
Bat_Girl_CC

6179

Forum Posts

4

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

#24  Edited By Bat_Girl_CC

@maverick_6 said:
@buildhare said:

@maverick_6: Nice Analysis

What are your thoughts on Ozymandias's bullet catch in Watchmen?

I only watched the movie and saw his hand move.

But I mean, there is a video of a guy who cut a BB pellet moving 500~ mph from maybe a a few dozen meter away. He didn't actually need to move at 500 mph. He just predicted where it went. Oz could have easily done the bullet equivilent to aim dodging, and have caught the bullet by predicting where it would be, outmaneuvering the trigger rather than the shooter.

It's not too implausible. Though catching a bullet with your bare hands would just cause it to tear through your flesh. Hence, it makes more sense for him to use gloves in the movie.

@bat_girl_cc:

Completely spot on.

Cass is ridiculous and there is no way to explain her without her just having having superhuman stats. She does it consistently and it puts her in the supersonic range. Though I'd buy that she isn't supersonic, because picturing her running along with a speedster doesn't sit well with me.

She is, in a very good badass and awesome away, and its one of the reasons why i love her.

She was born raised and training in very harsh conditions that for one enabled her to read body language fluently in order for her to predict her opponents next moves to the point of boredom, and even tho its never actually stated it was implyed that her physical stats were also amped specially her speed and pain-tolerance, being able to both dodge bullets after the projectils were fired with her back turned to the shooter and even while being in mid-air, as well as takning bullets without even flinching, all of that at the age of 5...it was stated on panel that her speed was meta once by a bunch of scientists during her batgirl run.

But apart from that, crazy-skilled peak-humans are famous for looking meta-human-fast in close-quarters, Cass has even out-runned a bullet once (she literally beat the bullet to its mark).

Her just accelerating very quickly, nigh instantly, would actually coincide with all of her feats, and probably could coincide with some magic, Qi Gong martial arts type myth stuff or something. (Because that is one ability I hear monks can have.) It keeps her out of the realm of speedsters but would enable her to do freaky, wesker type stuff. She was one of the characters I was thinking about when I made this.

Her and Spider-man actually.

She doesn't have of that, even though she knows some secret techniques, so...pus she can copy and add to her arsenal any technique that is performed in front of her.

Anyway, ever since Flashpoint happened and DC rebooted, roughly 5 years ago, Cass has been no where to be seen, she recently debuted on this new continuity as part of the weekly series Batman and Robin Eternal, and she has been nerfed, like alot...so far with 20 issues in, the only "crazy thing" that she has done was dodging lasers once and even that i'm not sure if it wasn't only aim-dodging (likely), and destroying a few killer-robots, standard stuff for old Cass...skill-wise she's still crazy good, but i think below her former-self, time will tell.

Avatar image for deactivated-5bb7f2e29af78
deactivated-5bb7f2e29af78

1835

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@maverick_6: Someone with lightspeed reflexes, can dodge a bullet at point blank range easily. Problem is this usually isn't the case. Its more about body shifting and so on as well. Jedi react to lasers being fired at them, cause they see them coming at a lower setting. Does this mean the jedi can run at laser speed? No, it just means they have the ability to counter said blaster bolt coming their way by making tiny adjustments to counter their attack. Its a weird thing, but ultimately if you have FTL reflexes you can and should be able to dodge anything slower than FTL.

Avatar image for maverick_6
Maverick_6

10436

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@solarwavealpha:

What you are describing is aim dodgibg/aim blocking. Jedi blaster bolts aren't lightspeed, but I understand the example. Still, if someone does block a laser without being lightspeed, it is more so due to anticipation of the slower than light thing.

Otherwise, that minor twitch means nothing after something of a true laser is fired at you.

Avatar image for deactivated-5bb7f2e29af78
deactivated-5bb7f2e29af78

1835

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@maverick_6: I never claimed they are light speed, and aim dodging is different than dodging. I think youre confused

Avatar image for elijah_c_washington
Elijah_C_Washington

4621

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@maverick_6: I have a question. At what point does a bullet-timing feat become in the Mach 1+ ranges? For instance, Deathstroke cut down several bullets from just a couple feat away in his current run. I would assume feats like that are blatantly in excess of the speed of sound.

Avatar image for maverick_6
Maverick_6

10436

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@solarwavealpha:

I know aim dodging is different dodging. What I am saying is.

Let's say you have lightspeed reflexez and wait for a bullet to be fired at you. But you have no superspeed. Let's say, 10 feet away. You my friend, are going to be basically frozen in place and helpless as you watch somethig like a high speed bullet go towards you. The speed at which the human body moves isn't enough to overcome an on target shot towards a still target.

I always jut imagine peak humans as incredibly hard to hit because they are agile and fast. But reflexes aren't gonna help much after it's fired if you don't have the speed to go with it.

Avatar image for maverick_6
Maverick_6

10436

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@maverick_6: I have a question. At what point does a bullet-timing feat become in the Mach 1+ ranges? For instance, Deathstroke cut down several bullets from just a couple feat away in his current run. I would assume feats like that are blatantly in excess of the speed of sobund.

It's rather ambiguous as to what it is. Something similiar has been accomplished where one can predict the shot.

But of course, not everything makes sense. Deathstroke could be just accelerating like I said (Though, this means that he could just break and stop on a dime.) Of course, if accelerates very quickly at inhuman speeds than he could just swat the bullets away. And would still be hitting eyeblurring appearance and be able to tag speedsters, and all that.