Why Do So Many People Hate Fairy Tail?

debunked ? not really, FT not taking itself seriously doesn't help that it teases losses only for the author to turn it around so much that there is no point in teasing those losses in first place. the typical shonen power up is overused to FT a point that there's no point on expecting anything else. mashima is a good writer, rave master is testament to that but with FT, it's like he's averting too much on keeping his fans happy by making everyone of their characters alive and suddenly kick ass with out adequate storytelling. at least on naruto's case, his talk no jutsu stems on challenging a character's belief while on FT, the overall theme is friendship triumphs everything. don't use your personal space as some kind of affirmation to counter the criticism to it when there's a lot of dividing talk as to how it is now.

the matter of opinion of liking or not isn't a black or white concept when objectivity and choice can be used to it. you can like the series but harp on its weakpoints. you can hate the series but still continue reading it to finish the story.

@kyrees: "debunked ? not really, FT not taking itself seriously doesn't help that it teases losses only for the author to turn it around so much that there is no point in teasing those losses in first place."

I haven't shown anything that I debunked on this forum yet. So saying that I haven't debunked anything holds no ground. Teasing loses is done all the time in different shows. It's meant to build suspense and anticipation for what comes next. There is no error in that form of writing, just because you don't like it doesn't make it bad. Marvel comics do this all the time. Not to mention, you clearly didn't understand my point. I never said it not taking itself seriously justifies it's structural criticism. I said that's a large reason why some people don't like the show.

"he typical shonen power up is overused to FT a point that there's no point on expecting anything else."

Give me more than ten examples throughout the entire series where a random shonen power up occurs to beat the enemy. I bet you I'll be able to find previously used explanations that defeat the whole "friends! Gah I'm more powerful now" argument. Also, do not mistake asspulls for shonen power ups, while the two can be linked, they are not the same thing. Further more, this is hardly the only series they do this in. I will admit that Fairy Tail has a ridiculous amount of ass pulls. But friendship shonen power ups, not nearly as many as people claim.

"he's averting too much on keeping his fans happy by making everyone of their characters alive and suddenly kick ass with out adequate storytelling."

I don't want to get into spoilers but Makarov would have to disagree with that.

Also, there is adequate storytelling being done. He provides explanations as to how the main characters did what they did. The only one I can think of who breaks this rule is Erza, who I can agree has a ridiculous amount of asspulls.

"at least on naruto's case, his talk no jutsu stems on challenging a character's belief while on FT, the overall theme is friendship triumphs everything."

So you're insisting that the story not follow it's own theme? Also, it's about friendship and family helping you overcome impossible obstacles. The early Fantastic Four comics had a similar theme, although with a lot less ass pulls.....well almost *cough* Reed Richards *cough*.

Also, this also isn't a flaw in the story itself, this is just you stating that you prefer one theme over the other.

"don't use your personal space as some kind of affirmation to counter the criticism to it when there's a lot of dividing talk as to how it is now."

I didn't. If it came off that way then that is not what I intended. I merely made the point that I thought it was interesting I've never met a Fairy Tail hater in real life when there are so many of them online.

"it's also a matter of opinion on whether your debunking is relative or not"

It is not a matter of opinion. Debunking incorrect criticisms of the show has nothing to do with opinion because they are based on the actual structure of the stories themselves.

Whether or not you consider it relative is however your opinion.

"but given a lot of people have dissenting opinions to it whether informed or not, i don't see how that debunk can prove anything otherwise"

It proves that some of the reasons people dislike it are incorrect. If they dislike it, then they dislike it. However, if they point to a specific point in the story and say "that's an incorrect use of *insert whatever it is they're talking about in terms of story structure*", then I can prove their points incorrect.

"but given a lot of people have dissenting opinions to it whether informed or not"

That is their right to have dissenting opinions. If they don't like it then they don't like it. However, if they create factual errors on certain subjects, then it is possible for their arguments for this hatred are useless because they are invalidated by fact.

Lack of plot or creativity... That and it's also just plain boring.

Old post, but wanted to chime in..One Piece has tension, it just doesn't show up until way later like in the Crocodile storyline, or definitely when Luffy goes to save Ace. I had to force myself to get into it at the start too but I stuck with it and it's become one of my favorites

Yep One Piece is good... the first episode is just awful... but give it some time.

@bobandjim1260: Why don't you post some of those instances where ass-pull power ups are "typically explained" or "well thought out"? And tell me how only Makarov dying this whole last arc somehow invalidates the notion that nobody dies in FT?

if you haven't shown any debunking on this forum then why are you claiming you debunk it then ? show it to this forum then you can say something. building suspense shouldn't be that predictable and that happens far too often in fairy tail, i mean you will know one way or another their nakama power is going to trump a superior character without that much losses. take the current arc now, the spriggan 12 are supposedly more monstrous than everyone on FT but nearly get defeated through classi comboing which the FT always does. even now, irene belserion's deus sema attack against an extremely weakened erza is either shaping to be another realization part on irene's side or erza gaining another powerup through sheer force of will.

you want more friendship pulls ? erza survives END natsu and demon slayer gray's combined attack with relative wounds on her hands and then she fights irene afterwards. mard greer should have killed gray and natsu and yet somehow silver's power is implied to be capable of countering memento mori. brandish should have been made a killing ends up having a revelation with lucy through their mother's connection. larcade, the pleasure dragon slayer, ends up getting ganged upon by two dragon slayers and their friend despite being said to be capable of fighting acnologia. i could point on and on but those are the only ones i remember at the moment. i pointed out these scenes given how weird their pacing becomes when in connection to someone

makarov's the only significant death to date and practically the only one with such effect. igneel may have the father approach but it's only natsu's end. it's not really a strong defense against that criticism whereas gajeel and juvia got their own revivals. there's also a point where you don't follow your theme to show other variables. i suppose naruto nearly killing kakuzu is him not using his talk no jutsu and natsu soloing the two dragonslayers is not using friendship power but then again, the latter justifies his friendship as power in the closing points of that battle. whether i prefer that theme or not is nothing to me, i want to see something unique in any series and biasedly, i have been spoiled by mashima's rave master.

incorrect criticism on whose account ? yours ? how is it your opinion is supposedly factual by basing it in the story when same criticism could be applied by basing on the story as well ? do you honestly expect everyone to have the same interpretation as you did ? what is factual then ? your own interpretation to it ? the right of dissenting opinion never indicated that one side is any less correct than the other by arbitrary judgement of the other side.

Because they haven't read Fables

Mainly cause Erza's boobs are not big enough

@thevivas: "Why don't you post some of those instances where ass-pull power ups are "typically explained" or "well thought out"?"

As I stated previously, If you wish to start an argument, bring up a point to argue.

"And tell me how only Makarov dying this whole last arc somehow invalidates the notion that nobody dies in FT?"

Nobody dying in Fairy Tail would be contradicted by the very fact that someone, Makorav, has died.

@bobandjim1260: Or you can just, you know, back up anything you've been saying? Like, at all? The point to argue is "FT has random ass-pull power ups". The whole reason reason you posted in this thread was to disagree with that notion among many, and now you're telling me to bring up an argument? Really?

Why don't you try listing maybe ten people who actually matter to the story and aren't villains or side characters that have actually died? Until then, FT doesn't have high stakes, which was your gripe with people's arguments before. And of course saying "No one ever dies" doesn't mean literally, as we know Lucy's dad, Ur, and Yuri are dead.

@kyrees: "if you haven't shown any debunking on this forum then why are you claiming you debunk it then ?"

Because I was explaining that I had debunked individuals before for reasons that were incorrect.

"show it to this forum then you can say something."

As I suggested I would if points were brought up. Which you just did.

"building suspense shouldn't be that predictable and that happens far too often in fairy tail,"

Building suspense has nothing to do with being predictable. If what you're referring to is the lead up structural story beat known as "bad guys closing in", then I would have to disagree. Was it predictable that Natsu would shove Gajeel into a minecart during the final battle with Sting and Rouge? Fairy Tail is full of ways taking conversations and flipping them on their heads to keep the viewer entertained. Convention has it that Natsu and Gajeel would fight the Twin Dragon slayers, be near the brink of defeat, and then Han Solo a moment and achieve victory, or loss. As the resolution beat can work either way. I hate to break it to you but every single story that are structured by writers can be broken down like this. Just because you see something as predictable does not make it bad. Others may have been surprised. I knew Luke was going to destroy the death star, but the emotion of the moment was an experience to sit through. Same with Fairy Tail. I'll provide further examples on this point if you need.

"i mean you will know one way or another their nakama power is going to trump a superior character without that much losses."

Nakama power, friendship power ups don't exist in the way you are trying to say they do. There are a lot of friendship speeches (it's kinda what the show is about), the only times I can think of them actually powering up because of it (or continuing to fight) is Erza fighting Kagura and Minerva, as well as her fight with Kyoka. Again, I have already admitted Erza uses ass pulls though. In any case, it has been suggested in the series that emotions drive magical power. This can be positive, like the feelings of love and family helping you get past obstacles that could kill you, or negative, like Zeref who was cursed to kill all things around him. Mavis was killed because of this intense emotions Zeref felt for her. Also, get this, what if a lot of the characters hyped up to be superior aren't actually superior? What if they are just hyping themselves up?

"take the current arc now, the spriggan 12 are supposedly more monstrous than everyone on FT but nearly get defeated through classi comboing which the FT always does."

So two characters taking on one and defeating them is unbelievable to you? I can understand hyping villains up only to have them defeated "easily" can be a let down. However, Ancologia and nearly all of the dragons have kept their hype. Look what Acnologia did to someone claiming to be god.

"even now, irene belserion's deus sema attack against an extremely weakened erza is either shaping to be another realization part on irene's side or erza gaining another powerup through sheer force of will."

The Irene battle has almost killed Erza. We don't know if she'll actually defeat her or stop the meteorite by herself. However, I have already told you I agree with you about Erza's ass pulls.

"you want more friendship pulls ? erza survives END natsu and demon slayer gray's combined attack with relative wounds on her hands and then she fights irene afterwards."

That's not a friendship pull. That's her being powerful enough to tank such a blast. Have you forgotten the Jupiter Canon? Or the fact that she is repeatedly been called more powerful than Natsu and Gray? Also, surviving something does not equate beating them.

"mard greer should have killed gray and natsu and yet somehow silver's power is implied to be capable of countering memento mori."

Silver was practically a walking corpse with demon slayer magic who was essentially under the control of a demon who knew his intentions. Mard Geer was beating Natsu and Gray. You also forgot to mention that Rogue and Sting helped out temporarily. But again, this is not a friendship power up nor is it an incorrect structural plot point.

"brandish should have been made a killing ends up having a revelation with lucy through their mother's connection. larcade, the pleasure dragon slayer, ends up getting ganged upon by two dragon slayers and their friend despite being said to be capable of fighting acnologia."

He wasn't capable of fighting Acnologia. His magic was going to be used against Acnologia in order to weaken him. Who said it wouldn't have been a sneak attack? Again, just because fights don't go the way you want them to doesn't make them bad. Nor does it make them structurally incorrect.

"i could point on and on but those are the only ones i remember at the moment."

Elfman vs The drunk fighter (forgetting his name), Jellal vs Natsu, Sting and Rogue vs Natsu, most of the demons of Tartaros. Etc. They were not friendship power up just because they gave the speeches. If you go back and reviews the materials, there is an explanation as to why they were beat as well as a strategy in place. The upgrades happen a lot in anime. When you establish that emotions have a direct link with magic and you establish that these characters are finding out more about themselves, both powers and historical ties, is it really that hard to believe that they have power ups when they're at their emotional peaks?

"makarov's the only significant death

to date and practically the only one. igneel may have the father approach but it's only natsu's end."

Then it's not "practically" the only one is it? So Lucy's father, Edolas Lisanna, Simon, the chief that raised Wendy, future Lucy, the rest of the dragon slayers dragons, Silver, Ur, Zera, the members of the magic council, and many more villains don't count either? Are you saying you want them to kill off a major character? Like Makorav? You really seem to desire a lot of death for a show intended to be happy go lucky.

"it's not really a strong defense against that criticism whereas gajeel and juvia got their own revivals. there's also a point where you don't follow your theme to show other variables."

Show other variables? You mean where I talked about how arguments are constructed based off of structural support? I wasn't discussing specific elements from the show to prove points about it yet. That's what this post was about. My last post was about showing you that I debunk errors in structural story criticism for the series.

"i suppose naruto nearly killing kakuzu is him not using his talk no jutsu and natsu soloing the two dragonslayers is not using friendship power but then again, the latter justifies his friendship as power in the closing points of that battle."

Because to them the driving emotional bonds they create power their magic. Or at least strongly aid it. Not a structural problem.

"whether i prefer that theme or not is nothing to me,"

Then why bring the discussion of theme up? You compared the two, what point were you trying to make? I took the logical point derived from your statement. So forgive me if I misunderstood your point.

i want to see something unique in any series and biasedly, i have been spoiled by mashima's rave master."

Well, Fairy Tail has a unique style of humor and world about it. Rave Master was good. It was also far darker than Fairy Tail, perhaps one of the reasons you dislike this show is because it doesn't take itself as seriously as Rave Master.

"incorrect criticism on whose account ? yours ?"

Incorrect criticism on the various people I've discussed this with on MAL. People throwing around the word plot hole, plot device and other such words that define a stories structure without actually knowing what they mean. I also did not imply that my criticism was incorrect.

"how is it your opinion is supposedly factual by basing it in the story when same criticism could be applied by basing on the story as well ?"

Simple, because it's not my opinion. It's an argument built off of the structure of a story using established literally terms. If an argument is logical and uses proof from the source material than, if constructed properly, is a sound argument.

I never said criticism against the show wasn't correct. Taking things from the show and misrepresenting them or using strawman fallices to support their conclusions, IE: all wins in Fairy Tail are Nakama power ups, is what makes SOME other arguments using the show incorrect. I would have no problem accepting criticism on the show when it's logically based or expressed solely as an opinion. There are structural errors with the show. Continuity errors to be exact.

"do you honestly expect everyone to have the same interpretation as you did ?"

It's not about interpretation.

"what is factual then ?"

An argument using a proper logical basis against whatever you are arguing as well as materials from the source of whatever it is we are arguing about.

"your own interpretation to it ? the right of dissenting opinion never indicated that one side is any less correct than the other ((((((an opinion is created through interpretation))))) by arbitrary judgement of the other side."

That's partly because neither of us have technically set up a proper argument yet. It's a jumbled combination of points that amount to nothing in specific. If you wish to do so, I think we should start now with a basic argument form Modus Ponens.

Th is was my argument.

I believe Fairy Tail does not deserve the hate it gets from individuals whose criticism on the structure of the story is incorrect. Then, I have found from the criticisms I addressed that they are incorrect.

Therefore, Fairy Tail does not deserve the hate it gets.

We can argue about the truth of the premises if you so desire?

If any of you desire to bypass debate, I will post two links to videos of people who share a very similar OPINION of the series as me.

Watch "Addressing The Hate In Fairy Tail" on YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0fmtmlo-Ag&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Watch "RANT: Why Fairy Tail Gets So Much Hate!?!??" on YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA9snXXX-fw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

They are obviously fans of the series but they address they hate and problems with the series as well.

I like Fairy Tail. Is it the best anime? No. Does it deserve the hate it gets? Depends on why you hate it and what your critics are. Is there a lot of bandwagon hate? Absolutely. One of the users above actually proved that point by saying he enjoyed the arc up until he watched someone who dislikes the show do a negative review of it. I enjoy Nostalgia Critic, but that doesn't mean I agree with him on his points or opinion of Star Wars Rogue One or Doctor Strange.

This isn't meant to be an argument as much as an interesting resource for those who want an interesting outlook on why those who like the show enjoy it.

@bobandjim1260: So instead of actually bringing up any points yourself and defending your position, you're gonna rely on others to do it for you?

@thevivas: I defended the points I made in relation to what I was talking about. As seen above in my current debate with Kyrees. Also, taking the defense side of an argument isn't relying on others to make an argument for you. I have already given my opinions and points on the argument. I already addressed the previous point you made as well.

This video also shares my feeling towards the character Erza.

Watch "Fairy Tail - Why Erza Scarlet Get's So Much Hate!?" on YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQSc5yh_bRs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

@bobandjim1260: You didn't defend anything, really. And I think that's the sad part.

Stating that the show has "killed off" (literally half of the examples you listed were characters already dead/had no impact whatsoever on the story or characters) doesn't suddenly mean the show now has high stakes. You've also practically ignored all the reasons people don't like it to complain about people "not watching" it and *still* have yet to provide any sort of proof to back up what you're saying. All you've done is link to videos hoping they'll provide the proof you haven't.

that's not what i'm talking about. i'm talking about how suspense and predictability need to be on equivalent levels to each other that neither suffer from the other's misgivings. the suspense part of FT is hyping its characters and foreshadowing its connections and there should be a low amount of predictability to that. FT's case doesn't really help that it always ends up with the FT guy winning against on various level of believability. mashima is not consistent with that at all.

emotion based reactions is present in every anime. what sets FT apart though is how it is pulled off by mashima and i have said that earlier here. i can be so off putting that a technically superior character hyped by both the author and his characters get defeated by one-two-three combo from his enemies after getting themselves wumped to pieces.

the indication of erza being significantly more powerful than gray and natsu doesn't necessitate the arguments of her holding ground in between these two when one of them is bloodlusted enough to fight his friend in full power. why does the events of pre timeskip become somehow relevant to post timeskip material ? jupiter cannon faced an erza that didn't have second origin. the friendship part was how natsu was not affected by memento mori despite him being practically inside its ground zero. larcade is hyped as someone who can fight acnologia and yet a combined force was able to beat him for the time being. all these fight explanations aren't even consistent enough to sway the notion that mashima doesn't overuse the nakama power trope or else we wouldn't be having this conversation.

makarov is the only significant one yet to die because of his connections to everyone in FT. all you mentioned are only connected to handful of at best people. heck, lisanna's "revival" has more impact than all those mentioned deaths because of how many people are affected by it. also, i don't expect people dying off in instant but mashima doesn't have the guts to kill a characters because he did save gajeel and juvia.

arguments are not merely constructed on one pattern. numerous points can be taken to criticize and any one of those points is as correct as each other given they are all fanbased opinions of a material. how is one like your own approach anymore correct here ?

you say it like it was supposed to be interpreted that way. it can be interpreted in any ways. theme is only a frontline opener and what i want is its substance.

because they don't go with your version of interpretation so they are incorrect ? isn't that even more biased thinking here ? there's no one way in discussing plot as a whole. it is still your opinion when you are subjecting everything else in literally terms or in the same logical exercises you do. even i don't want to be constrained in such logical exercise

as for your argument as a whole, i would actually question that you are just finding and accepting evidence that proves your point since you end with up an absolute statement. you are already focused on one answer.

Anyone remember when simon died. just me?

@thevivas:

"You didn't defend anything, really. And I think that's the sad part."

This was your original statement.

"Why don't you post some of those instances where ass-pull power ups are "typically explained" or "well thought out"? And tell me how only Makarov dying this whole last arc somehow invalidates the notion that nobody dies in FT?"

This was my answer to your statement. You were wrong. Unless you are unsure as to the definition of what nobody means.

"Nobody dying in Fairy Tail would be contradicted by the very fact that someone, Makorav, has died."

"Stating that the show has "killed off" (literally half of the examples you listed were characters already dead/had no impact whatsoever on the story or characters)- if you think the characters I listed were already dead then you haven't payed any attention to the series.

"doesn't suddenly mean the show now has high stakes."

Actually, it does. I'd say the world being threatened by Zeref, The Oracion Seis, Ancnologia means the world is being threatened.

"You've also practically ignored all the reasons people don't like it to complain about people "not watching" it and *still* have yet to provide any sort of proof to back up what you're saying."

Did you or did you not read what I wrote? I was arguing about the structure of the show and how the arguments I hear against them are not logical arguments. I addressed Kryees with proof, unless you want scans. I can get those, I'll just need access to a computer.

"All you've done is link to videos hoping they'll provide the proof you haven't."

I'm going to stop you right there.

"If any of you desire to bypass debate, I will post two links to videos of people who share a very similar OPINION of the series as me."

Did you not read the part where I stated the videos were NOT part of my argument? They were more related to the thread's topic. I'm not going to respond to you if you don't take the time to actually read what I say.

@natsudragneel41: Not going to lie I tried watching it and honestly the style of story didn't agree with me. The story didn't seem to exist and was just bad all round. So can udnerstand the hate. sorry dude. But each to their own.

@deathhero61 I'm sure you're interested in this.

@kyrees:

"that's not what i'm talking about. i'm talking about how suspense and predictability need to be on equivalent levels to each other that neither suffer from the other's misgivings."

This is true, they shouldn't suffer from the other's misgivings.

"the suspense part of FT is hyping its characters and foreshadowing its connections and there should be a low amount of predictability to that."

Irene being Erza's mother, Zeref being Natsu's brother, Natsu being END, the leader of the church not being behind the second Oracion Seis attack, Zera being an illusion of Mavis, all of those things (and more) were predictable to you? Or are you referring to the outcome of battles?

"FT's case doesn't really help that it always ends up with the FT guy winning against on various level of believability. mashima is not consistent with that at all."

Which is exactly my grip with Erza. Something I've already expressed. I agree about the level of believability for Erza. Well, if they win continually than it is consistent. However, I think what you're trying to say is the level of believability to which they win each fight isn't consistent. Which would actually contradict the point of them "always winning the same way".

"emotion based reactions is present in every anime." ---Every anime? That is debatable.

"what sets FT apart though is how it is pulled off by mashima and i have said that earlier here."

You did? I must have missed it.

"i can be so off putting that a technically superior character hyped by both the author and his characters get defeated by one-two-three combo from his enemies after getting themselves wumped to pieces."

I may be the minority on this, but I actually find it refreshing. I get sick and tired of battles that go on for a ridiculous amount of episodes. Hiro's always had a face paced flow.

This is just my opinion of course.

There are villains in the show who still live up to the hype. Ancologia, Zeref, Zero, basically any Dragon, Jellal, Hades, Mard Geer had almost no build up and he was incredibly powerful.

"the indication of erza being significantly more powerful than gray and natsu doesn't necessitate the arguments of her holding ground in between these two when one of them is bloodlusted enough to fight his friend in full power."

That's equivalent to saying Thanos breaking up a fight between a bloodlusted Thor and Silver Surfer isn't plausible because he's more powerful. It'd be ridiculous if she wasn't hurt by it, but she was.

"why does the events of pre timeskip become somehow relevant to post timeskip material ? jupiter cannon faced an erza that didn't have second origin."

She's only become more powerful since that point. If she could tank something like that back in the day, doesn't it stand to reason she could stop a level of power that Natsu and Gray wield currently? Not to mention, she stopped them, she didn't beat them.

"the friendship part was how natsu was not affected by memento mori despite him being practically inside its ground zero. "

larcade is hyped as someone who can fight acnologia and yet a combined force was able to beat him for the time being."

Again, his magic was supposed to allow him to fight Acnologia. Doesn't mean he actually could. Seeing as how different characters have different abilities, how do you know Acnologia wasn't weak to Larcade's magic? It effected everyone, even Zeref and Mavis.

"all these fight explanations aren't even consistent enough to sway the notion that mashima doesn't overuse the nakama power trope or else we wouldn't be having this conversation."

The nakama power up trope involves gaining the power to defeat your foes at the last minute in a deus ex machina sort of way. While there are some examples of friendship power ups in the show, when characters use or explain a strategy used to defeat their enemy then it's not a Nakama power up. Even if a friendship speech is involved. These types of things happen in animes like Bleach, One Piece, DBZ, etc. I will say that this show has an overabundance of friendship speeches, which can get annoying. Some can be very emotionally tugging as well. But that's besides the point.

"makarov is the only significant one yet to die because of his connections to everyone in FT."

It's a lot more than "No one ever dies in Fairy Tail".

"all you mentioned are only connected to handful of at best people."

You guys were saying the nobody dies, the list I provided you proves that statement wrong in that those people actually died.

"heck, lisanna's "revival" has more impact than all those mentioned deaths because of how many people are affected by it."

I would have to disagree as this is entirely a matter of opinion. I thought Makorav, future Lucy, Igneel, and (while she's not dead it played out like a death scene) Aquarius had a lot of impact.

"also, i don't expect people dying off in instant but mashima doesn't have the guts to kill a characters because he did save gajeel and juvia."

He also saved Gray and Laxus. It's what we wants to do with the characters. Also, just because he hasn't killed them off yet doesn't mean he won't. So you can't say he doesn't have the balls to when the series hasn't ended yet. That's like saying George Lucas doesn't have the balls to kill Darth Vader off in the first film. He ends up dying and it's very emotional.

"arguments are not merely constructed on one pattern"

They are constructed on one logical pattern through various methods. You can have many different argument forms, but they all follow the same logic.

"numerous points can be taken to criticize and any one of those points is as correct as each other given they are all fanbased opinions of a material."

They are not. Once again, I wasn't arguing with one of the premise being an opinion. The structural story points are not fan based opinion.

"how is one like your own approach anymore correct here ?"

I will repeat myself, because it's not fan based opinion. I never said anything like "Natsu is the best dragon slayer and therefore doesn't need to lose a fight". That would be an opinion. When I say something like, there are strategies in place of friendship power ups in battle, that is not an opinion. That is taken directly from the source material.

"you say it like it was supposed to be interpreted that way. it can be interpreted in any ways."

You can interpret the moon is cheese. You cannot interpret the moon has creators. One is a direct reflection of the material. The other in an interpretation. I will tell you when my opinion is posted, as with the videos I shared.

"theme is only a frontline opener and what i want is its substance."

Which Fairy Tail delivers. If the theme is of friendship and companionship and you get those feelings/characters across then it's accomplished exactly that.

"because they don't go with your version of interpretation so they are incorrect ? isn't that even more biased thinking here ?"

It has nothing to do with going with my interpretation or not. It has to do with strawmaning the actual show. For example, I agree with you about the shows asspulls and Erza. Whether or not I like the character, me saying "Erza never has asspulls" would be incorrect because that'd be my interpretation.

"there's no one way in discussing plot as a whole."

This is what I spend most of my screenwriting classes learning how to do.

"it is still your opinion when you are subjecting everything else in literally terms or in the same logical exercises you do."

An opinion is a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

When there are established terms and canon material to derive your arguments from, it is not your opinion. My opinion of Fairy Tail is that it's an enjoyable show. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing Fairy Tail doesn't deserve the hate it gets because some of it's criticism isn't valid due to it not accurately reflecting the source material, IE: There are no deaths in Fairy Tail. All the battles are one shots.

"even i don't want to be constrained in such logical exercise"

Then we argue with nothing but emotion and opinions to which we will get nowhere. As at the end of the day it'd be two people rambling about what they do or do not enjoy. If you want to have that, then fine.

"as for your argument as a whole, i would actually question that you are just finding and accepting evidence that proves your point since you end with up an absolute statement."

You gave me points that I have already addressed. The only points I've brought up are examples of what you say the show does and or does not have. If you ask why I have not posted any scans of manga pages, videos and arguments, it's because my mobile device doesn't allow me to. If you so desire, and god help me if you do, I will post the various scans, arguments and definitions. Although I'm not sure whether or not that would be on topic when it comes to this forum.

"you are already focused on one answer."

As are you technically. Isn't that what arguing is all about? Proving your answer with factual and logical conclusions?

Being focused on one answer would be bad if this was an opinion based argument and had no logic to it.

@jaycool2: feel free to join our discussion of you wish. I do remember that Simon died lol.

Wat

@bobandjim1260:

This was your original statement.

No it wasn't. My original statement was this:

"Why don't you post some of those instances where ass-pull power ups are "typically explained" or "well thought out"? And tell me how only Makarov dying this whole last arc somehow invalidates the notion that nobody dies in FT?"

So you instead focus on "well Makarov died so that automatically means the 'nobody dies' argument is wrong". You're arguing semantics at this point after I already told you that the statement "nobody" isn't taken literally.

You've also managed to ignore the fact that you said you could explain nearly all of the ass-pull power ups and haven't done so since. You wanna complain about someone not reading what you're saying and then flat out ignore what I've been asking you since my first reply?

Talk about double standards.

Actually, it does. I'd say the world being threatened by Zeref, The Oracion Seis, Ancnologia means the world is being threatened.

I don't think you know what the word "stakes" means, then.

Acnologia isn't threatening the world. If he wanted to, he could have ravaged it already seeing as how the only opponents to even come close to a threat to him were the Dragons (who are already dead) and the Spriggans, who weren't even introduced until this arc.

Now answer this, did anybody die fighting Oracion Seis? Did anybody die fighting against Zeref? The fact that every "hero" literally gets saved by plot (Elfman should have been murked fighting against Ajeel yet he wasn't, the weaker members of FT should have been murked by the superior numbers of the Alvarez soldiers yet they weren't, Levy should have been rendered unconscious after absorbing Bloodman's magical barrier particles just like Evergreen, Bixslow, and Freed were yet she wasn't, Mirajane should have been taken out by August but was saved by Brandish who suddenly cares about her for no reason, etc.) ruins any sense of high stakes in the story because everyone knows none of the major characters die despite being foreshadowed to die. Just recently, Gajeel, Juvia, and Sting come to mind. I wouldn't be surprised if Makarov came back at this point.

Did you or did you not read what I wrote? I was arguing about the structure of the show and how the arguments I hear against them are not logical arguments. I addressed Kryees with proof, unless you want scans. I can get those, I'll just need access to a computer.

The arguments are definitely logical arguments, the hell are you talking about?

The story basing itself off of friendship and the power you get from protecting loved ones doesn't excuse the fact that nearly every villain is beat by an ass-pull power up or nakama power. I have literally a dozen examples off the top of my head that easily support the fact that villains are defeated via nakama power and ass-pull power ups. There's limits to what you can do just because you get mad or a sudden flash of companionship. The fact that a friendship speech or the basic thought of "you hurt my friends, that's unacceptable" ruins the fights because everyone knows the villain is going to be defeated after that and that the hero will magically emerge victorious. There hasn't been any suspense to any fight since FACE, and that's terrible for a manga that started off as more of a comedy than an action manga but is now doing a 180 and becoming more action oriented.

There's a reason people who watch the show and read the manga come to the same conclusion and gripe about the same exact same things.

You've stated this as well:

"I would have no problem accepting criticism on the show when it's logically based or expressed solely as an opinion."

Yet you've tried to argue down everyone who displays criticism to the show when it's logically based and expressed as an opinion.

You can try to argue that it doesn't deserve to be hated for "friendship power ups" or no relevant character has died so there is no suspense and try to debunk that with your own "opinion", but that's just it: it's your opinion. You basing your opinion off of how the story is apparently set up is no more valid than people basing their dislike of the series based on how the story plays out.

To be honest, there are worse series than Fairy Tail, hell DBZ/Super, Bleach to name a couple, are worse than fairy tail(many of the issues people have with Fairy Tail are evident in those exact shows) but nobody says jack crap. It's just double standards and particular bias. I'm not going to bother going into detail in that regard.

I dislike Anime/Manga in general

@thevivas:

"No it wasn't. My original statement was this:

"Why don't you post some of those instances where ass-pull power ups are "typically explained" or "well thought out"?

In my argument with Kyrees, I did. Feel free to read it.

And tell me how only Makarov dying this whole last arc somehow invalidates the notion that nobody dies in FT?"

Already addressed this.

"So you instead focus on "well Makarov died so that automatically means the 'nobody dies' argument is wrong". You're arguing semantics at this point after I already told you that the statement "nobody" isn't taken literally."

Then you should have said very few people die. I gave you a long list of other characters that die.

"You've also managed to ignore the fact that you said you could explain nearly all of the ass-pull power ups and haven't done so since. You wanna complain about someone not reading what you're saying and then flat out ignore what I've been asking you since my first reply?"

Read my argument with Kyrees, they're sprinkled about in there. A main reason I didn't start it is because there are hundreds of fights I could talk about in Fairy Tail. Give me specific ones and I will debate them with you. Simple as that.

"Talk about double standards." You attempts at insulting me are getting annoying, stop. Double standards would imply that I'm holding someone else accountable to something I am not also holding myself accountable. The only thing you seem to be stuck on is my "lack of examples", which are examples I do not wish to re-post as they are already in Kryees argument.

"I don't think you know what the word "stakes" means, then."

Definition of High Stakes: high-risk, dangerous; having the potential for very significant gains or losses.

The multiple threats to the people and the world would count as high stakes.

"Acnologia isn't threatening the world. If he wanted to, he could have ravaged it already seeing as how the only opponents to even come close to a threat to him were the Dragons (who are already dead) and the Spriggans, who weren't even introduced until this arc." Ancologia has destroyed cities after finding a possibility of dragons existing there. It's like saying that a hydrogen bomb doesn't put a city kn high stakes because it hasn't exploded yet.

"Now answer this, did anybody die fighting Oracion Seis?" Technically Roubaul and the rest of the village, yes. But they were already dead. So no.

"Did anybody die fighting against Zeref?" Yes. Hades, Zancrow, etc. More if we go into the past of the characters.

"The fact that every "hero" literally gets saved by plot (Elfman should have been murked fighting against Ajeel yet he wasn't, the weaker members of FT should have been murked by the superior numbers of the Alvarez soldiers yet they weren't, Levy should have been rendered unconscious after absorbing Bloodman's magical barrier particles just like Evergreen, Bixslow, and Freed were yet she wasn't, Mirajane should have been taken out by August but was saved by Brandish who suddenly cares about her for no reason, etc.)"

Just because you think a character should be defeated by more powerful beings when they aren't does not justify anything. I actually enjoy this. I get sick of anime fights that go on forever. Or the trope that "there is always a bigger fish in the sea that we have somehow not heard of". However, I admit that those things happen. Those aren't, unless we're talking about Erza friendship power ups, nakama power up defeats. That's just you not liking a battle. I can admit I understand how some people can be disappointed by those fights.

"ruins any sense of high stakes in the story because everyone knows none of the major characters die despite being foreshadowed to die."

Just like Superman? Or a ton of other animes. Bleach, One Piece, DBZ. Characters dying is not the only thing that constitutes high stakes. Stop treating it as if it is. High stakes include the dragons being released during the grand magic games arc, Jellal activating the Tower of heaven. Etc. They are high risk because a lot of the time the fate of the world hangs in the balance.

"Just recently, Gajeel, Juvia, and Sting come to mind. I wouldn't be surprised if Makarov came back at this point."

Needless speculation. Nice, nice. However, I can agree. While not a structural error, I will be irritated if Makorav comes back to life.

"The arguments are definitely logical arguments, the hell are you talking about?"

Saying that nobody dies in Fairy Tail when people very clearly die, and then using that as a point to criticize the show is one example of an illogical argument because the premises don't fit the antecedent. Therefore they're illogical. That's the hell I was talking about.

"The story basing itself off of friendship and the power you get from protecting loved ones doesn't excuse the fact that nearly every villain is beat by an ass-pull power up or nakama power."

Some battles are, not all. The nakama power ups are, for the sake of me not having to repeat myself, in my argument with Kyrees. Feel free to locate them.

"I have literally a dozen examples off the top of my head that easily support the fact that villains are defeated via nakama power and ass-pull power ups."

I already commented on those. After this I'll link you to actual pages of the manga when I get to a computer.

"There's limits to what you can do just because you get mad or a sudden flash of companionship. The fact that a friendship speech or the basic thought of "you hurt my friends, that's unacceptable" ruins the fights because everyone knows the villain is going to be defeated after that and that the hero will magically emerge victorious."

Magic powered by emotions. Natsu END and Dragon Slayer. Etc. I'm getting tired of responding to you because, once again, I talked about this above.

"There hasn't been any suspense to any fight since FACE, and that's terrible for a manga that started off as more of a comedy than an action manga but is now doing a 180 and becoming more action oriented."

That's your opinion man. The fight with Irene has a lot of people I know under a fair amount of tension when reading it due to the suspense. Especially when Wendy got involved. Regardless, I'm arguing opinion with opinion at this point.

"There's a reason people who watch the show and read the manga come to the same conclusion and gripe about the same exact same things."

That's fine. There is some stuff in the show, if you don't like, that you are obviously allowed to grip about. However, when you are incorrect about criticizing a structural issue with the show, then you are incorrect. Simple as that.

"You've stated this as well:

"I would have no problem accepting criticism on the show when it's logically based or expressed solely as an opinion."

Yet you've tried to argue down everyone who displays criticism to the show when it's logically based and expressed as an opinion."

No. They've expressed an opinion they've seen as logically based which wasn't. Again, nobody dying, Nakama power ups, every fight being a one shot, etc. If they were to talk about actual structural errors of the show, I'd totally accept the criticism if it's logically based. The opinions that I disagree with are ones were people think they're logically based and are not. If you hate Fairy Tail, that's fine. That's your opinion. If you tell me that nobody dies in fairy tail and that it should be part of the reasoning why people dislike it, then it's incorrect based on the fact that people do die. Even important ones.

"You can try to argue that it doesn't deserve to be hated for "friendship power ups" or no relevant character has died so there is no suspense and try to debunk that with your own "opinion",

For the last time man! It's not my opinion. It's a logical conclusion. It has nothing to do with my feelings towards the show. It's an analysis. That's it. I'm not stating "all the haters criticisms are wrong because I like what happens". I'm arguing against incorrect points that many people, who watch the show or not, get incorrect.

"but that's just it: it's your opinion. You basing your opinion off of how the story is apparently set up is no more valid than people basing their dislike of the series based on how the story plays out."

BUT THEY'RE NOT! Ha. They're basing arguments using the strawman fallacy.

When I get the time, I will make herculean effort in gathering the pages of the manga. Statements from the author. Definitions and explanations for everything that I'm trying to convey to you guys. I will tag both you and Kryees in it and we can hash it out there. It may be a while, as school and work is keeping me busy.

Fairy Tail chapter 519 was the worst on history, it had everything that is wrong with fairy tail: Plot armor, plot magic, bullshit feats, no sense of powerscaling and villains getting nakamized.

You can go at any manga forum, reddit, youtube reviews of 519 and you will see how much people are disgusted, not only haters but FANS too, yes fans, they too realize how disgraceful this chapter was.

So when people say that FT is hated, there is a difference between hate and stating all the bullshit that Fairy tail's author is giving to us, and even the fans acknowledge this fact.

I just read it and you are right on the money it shows everything that is wrong with FT just take out Erza and it FT might not be as bad. I mean Erza at full strength and the DS got stomped by the dragons then Erza manage to one-shot her mom with some DS enchantment there is so much BS I can take.

Grandmagic Game arc ending with Sting along with Erza BS win along with Fairy Tail BS along with powerups, I dropped FT but I heard recently that 519 was the most trash Fairy Tail chapter ever. If that is true then that's crazy because Grandmagic Games was trash af

I'm a big FT fanboy but damn chapter 519 was horrible, i generally don't care or like most FT fights but when the erza bull comes out of nowhere that makes me mad

how the hell did she destroy an asteroid (or meteoroid) with all of her bones broken?!?!?

Great build up, horrible paid off. I mean I love Fairy Tail, but after the first time skip, it just drop in quality. Oh look a cool character with great backstory, now fight, and Erza win bc she Erza. Happy survive a city explosion bc screw you friendship is magic. The time we actually kill a character you no longer care. DAMN IT!!!!!!!!!

I love pre time skip, but honestly when the filler of fairy tail have better writing then the actual arc and better paid off, you start questioning it's flaw.

I personally never mind Erza win against Minerva, but yeah it get worst unfortunately. I mean power up or new armor, whatever, defying logic just bc and ruining any buildup with a cop out. sigh.

It is just not that interesting.

I guess they just do, myself I have no problem with it, I read it now and then.

I got irked a lot, Minerva had ability control everything she sees and Erza got a pillar to the leg or something like that somehow asspull gets a NEW ARMOUR AND ONE-SHOTS. The icing on the cake was when STING had all fairy tail members in the hand they were all weaken he could have one-shotted then WON THE WHOLE TOURNEY. Instead he decided to start crying asking for forgive like he saw jesus infront of him

I was done when Juvia didn't die.

When i want to watch shounen i dont care about boobs. When i watch hentai i dont care about action. Mixing it up is a bad idea.

@gaoron: lol it's like almost every chick in FT has double Ds.

No one can relate to a fairy tale. That's just not the way life works.

@legacy6364: Tell that to religious people.

I've been down that slippery slope. And it always ends the same.

I just realized that erza who had just barely beaten Ajeel all out pretty much beat eileen in what is probably her weakest armor(for lack of a better term)

I'm not an anime guy at all, but I've attempted to give it a shot a few times. Couldn't last through the first episodes of either Fairy Tail or Bleach. I thought Attack on Titan was quite good though, and devoured the whole season on Netflix.

In my opinion i think fairy tail is better than one piece........i ended up watching 225 episodes of fairy tail before giving up on it and watching better anime while with one piece i could only get through around 20 episodes before giving up on that

519 Fairy Tail. Man I even love the series but that was just terrible. I felt a little sympathy for Irene..but that was about it. Like I've been saying, take out Erza's bullshit ass pulls and you have a way better series. Damn it. Here is the thing. It was explained that Wendy enchanted the sword with dragon slayer magic. However, while we know she can enchant things, we have never seen her enchant weapons. Otherwise she could have done the same for everyone during the Grand Magic Games. This chapter was pretty bad, and this is coming from a guy who loves Fairy Tail. Damn it.