Why are people so surprised with comics' liberal stand?

I see a lot of people complaining about Thor being female, Iceman being gay, Captain Marvel winning over Iron Man because she's a woman, calling the companies as pandering or being SJW and stuffs like that. Historically, comics have always been very liberal and ahead of its time. The X-men is intentionally created as an allegory to civil right movement at that time, gay characters coming out like Northstar and stories on gays and trans that humanize many of them at a time when homosexuals being viewed as deviants and corrupted, many of the characters were Blacks and there was a surge in Black characters during the time when civil rights were still a current event. They have never been getting more or less liberal. It has always been that way.

Most people have moderate views, so it's surprising to see the medium cater to what many consider a political and ideological fringe group.

I don't mind people having their views implemented into comics, so long as its constructively and fits within the context of the story without detracting from that plot or the characters.

Having Red Skull be a Trump allegory, a Trump MODOK, having Angela Agent of Asgard have some bullshit feminism with Bor and other stuff is Marvel trying to garner brownie points with liberal halfwits and plebs who are either new to comics or just don't care.

Because people don't care about history. It's only more apparent now than ever because of how extreme the standards have become.

Nobody is surprised by it. As people have already said, it's because Marvel really beats you over the head with it these days.

It's because they are replacing already established and popular characters. Nobody has problems with minorities or homosexuals, but when you replace them with everybody's favorite character just to cause controversy and get comic sales for being "progressive" then it becomes a problem. They could have made Jane Foster worthy without calling her Thor. That's not a title.

You can't change an iconic character for the sake of progressiveness. Would it still be "Wolverine" if you changed the character into an obese Uzbeki woman who was against fat shaming and didn't have a healing factor or claws? No. That's not Wolverine.

Pretty much this. When Marvel wanted to create parallels to the civil rights movement they didn't completely change who the Fantastic Four were, they created new characters to be that parallel with the X-Men. When they wanted to have a black superhero, they didn't change anyone, they created Black Panther. When they wanted a gay character, they created Northstar. The problem isn't Marvel pandering, it's that they're being lazy.

Also, for the OP, I don't know how pandering Captain Marvel winning over Iron Man is given how demonized her side has been and how out of character she's been acting.

People are not surprised... people are angry.

Also, Captain Marvel winning over Iron Man because she's a woman is probably the best and only explanation for why she was able to manhandle a freaking Hulk-Buster. War Machine, from 1998, was able to manhandle Ms. Marvel by himself. Yet, a modern and current version of a Hulk-Buster can't do it? It's clear pandering and bad writing. Hell, if she's actually that powerful then maybe they should have sent her in first during WWH instead of Tony.

Because Liberals go to art school......

I think it's less surprised, and more pissed off.

Nothing to be surprise about. I don't think anyone is surprised as much as they are just pissed off. Marvel hasn't done anything surprising in ages. Its fine that they take liberal stances, but at a certain point you are leaning too much on the scale and as most people stand in a grey area they really don't like that. Couple that leaning with perpetual laziness and you've got a recipe for annoyance.

Big comics companies seem to handle their opinions with the subtly of an episode of Black Mirror rather than easing people into it with skill and thought. Plenty of comics handle these things with a lot more skill and work, but with the examples you pointed out, or at least one or two of them they basically just hit us with a pillowcase filled with bricks and wrenches and then saying anyone who doesn't like it is a terrible person. Its just frustrating.

All good things in moderation.

I think the problem is tha marvel is approaching this in an agressive way, plus terribly writting don't help and above all Marvel team being salty manchilds using ms marvel to indirectly tell that anyone who don't like their mediocre stories in all different marvel are racists or trolls.

Look at DC, they're giving us a lot of diversity too but people like it because they're not patting their own backs for that or accusing their fandom of bigotry.

legit

Cuz Marvel always reflected the trends and events of the times and today is no different. You have the feminists, SJWs and white supremacists I mean "conservatives" so the comics reflect that and people are going to bitch based on what side they land on.

Marvel's pandering, there's a difference between being liberal and doing what Marvel's doing. A few weeks ago Marvel made a post about America Chavez where they directly pointed out that she was lesbian and Latina. Sure that may have been seen as important to some readers, but to most that was information we didn't really need to know or information that we could've figured out ourselves. All it did was label her character and labeling is never good. Instead of making stories focusing on good guys fighting bad guys, interesting story plots and twists, developing characters, and what not..Marvel's focused on changing whoever they can just to try to look good to minorities. It's not bad to have diversity, it's how Marvel's executing it that's been very poor. The Iceman coming out bit was a dumb thing on Marvel's part. Hey let's have Iceman come out right before an event where it's not known whether his character will live or die..It was an obvious PC stunt.

This is why I stick to anti-hero characters like Ghost Rider, The Punisher, Moon Knight, and such..Marvel doesn't really screw with them much and they're some of the few characters left with the story is in more importance than the character

@casper4690: We don't use that word in the forums.

you might just start a flame war

@poeticwarrior: I don't think most of the distaste toward the Ice Man's "I'm gay now" story is based on his sexual orientation but on the inconsistency and retconning of a 50 year old character who has had several meaningful heterosexual relationships just now deciding that he is gay. It just didn't make sense.

Marvel's efforts to get rid of the white heterosexual men and replace them with minorities (Female Thor Sam Wilson as Captain America, Female Iron Man, Cho as the Hulk) aren't opposed by most because they come from different backgrounds but because established characters have been cast aside. How about creating a minority character that isn't a knock off of an established character? Come on. Its insulting to suggest that the only way to write a minority character is to make him or her a knock off of a white guy.

The world is filled with many different people with many different cultures, beliefs and perspectives. I just don't think most people, liberal or conservative, care that much about a person's color or nationality. We do care about having interesting stories and characters though. How about Marvel using some creativity and make interesting original characters? Unfortunately the Female Thor will always be labeled the Female Thor. That's due to poor writing from Marvel . Sure Marvel has a liberal bent, but the issues with these stories have more to do with its lack of creativity.

@just_sayin: It seems to work out well in movie forms when the majority of the Asian lead characters being replaced by Whites like 21, Avatar, 47 Ronin, Ghost in the Shell, Speedracer. The thing is that people often complain when the race changes affect them. Do the same people who complain about these changes would also complain about Whites playing Asian roles in movies? The reason behind it is the assumption that people don't want to watch Asians or minority leads in general. Comics are not being saddled by hundreds of millions of dollars in investment, so they can at least afford to make these changes. They can take these kinds of risks to provide a wider range of superheroes that represent everyone instead of the White heroes and leads you find so often in movies.

@poeticwarrior:

It seems to work out well in movie forms when the majority of the Asian lead characters being replaced by Whites like 21, Avatar, 47 Ronin, Ghost in the Shell, Speedracer. The thing is that people often complain when the race changes affect them. Do the same people who complain about these changes would also complain about Whites playing Asian roles in movies?

Yes a lot of recent movies were accused of whitewashing and that had impact in the Box Office performance... Ex. Gods of Egypt...

The reason behind it is the assumption that people don't want to watch Asians or minority leads in general. Comics are not being saddled by hundreds of millions of dollars in investment, so they can at least afford to make these changes. They can take these kinds of risks to provide a wider range of superheroes that represent everyone instead of the White heroes and leads you find so often in movies.

Actually, the Marvel comics editorial intention is not promote diversity, they are just using/forcing a theme that can generate controversy to prevent that the established readers won't just ignore the new creative decisions... And this new creative decisions are/were just a catalyst so that the come back from the "replaced" characters can have more impact...

If is as you say Marvel editorial would have very different executions, like in Jane's case they would use a central Asgardian female character wielding Mjolnir (that also would be powerful and Goddess without it) so that could impact the worldbuilding and never be completely undone, Jane is just a sacrificed character and host of the hammer, similar to the no one cares about Eric Masterson...

And i know you know all this, but by the pattern you just prefer to spin this theme, in a way that there is someone to negatively label and blame... Instead of just acknowledge all the variables of the equation...

If the most interesting thing about a character is his/her race or sexual orientation, then the character isn't very interesting. Unfortunately, I don't think Marvel gets that. I want interesting characters that represent different races and traditions. I don't think minority characters are benefited by being made to be the knock off version of an established character. For instance, I think Amadeus Cho doesn't need to be the Asian Hulk in order to be an interesting character.

I wonder why Hollywood doesn't do a better job of representing Asian characters. Do you seriously think that they would put a white guy in the role of Martin Luther King Jr or Malcolm X. I don't think so. But there doesn't seem to be the same consideration towards roles that represent Asian characters.

If Marvel wanted a real diversity challenge, how about a conservative character who is not a stereotype of the liberal imagination.

@poeticwarrior : people need to stop being so uneducated and believing all that the left shovels their way. It was the left that had to be overcome in the Civil rights movement the democrats (the party all the slave owners belonged to) in the south that were against integration and of course were against filth like black superheroes.

I agree that most comic creators are left leaning as well, many that I love (I wish they would learn more about the shysters they support). Mark Millar for instance turned me way off with his insane characterization of Thor I was wondering when can the real Thor show up and beat this imposter senseless? At least the current Thor I can easily ignore until they put Thor back in his title. If I still want to continue buying new comics by that time.

The problem is lately we have very poorly written political propaganda entering into comics. enough! we get it you're a lefty now your preachy BS is ruining comics and I have to quit reading new comics because there are no longer comics to buy because for no good reason I can't get a proper Thor, Wolverine, Iron Man, Captain America or Hulk comic?

Also I don't get what Northstar did for gays no one cares he's boring let's get some characters who are actually interesting and happen to be gay "Please Like Me" is a recent show (in it's 4th season) that is just fantastic about a character that is interesting, three dimensional and just happens to be gay. But the clunkily written lefty propaganda has got to stop I wont keep paying to get slapped in the face by someone that couldn't win a debate based on what they are crying about so they put it in a story where they can have their silly fantasy played out to sock it to the other side. I don't see how any find these type of stories which are getting more common mainly from the obviously less talented writers entertaining.

Because of the times we live in is a time where certain people think they, their values and world view is under siege by a nefarious group of 'others' who basically just want to be represented as equal to the old establishment.

But in comics it's just weird to see people complain over stuff like this, because comics have always been liberal-leaning, because the people who make comics are artists, and artists tend to be liberal. And it's not like this is a new thing... like Wonder Woman standing for female equality goes all the way back to her creation in the 1940'ties and Superman was used to unmask the KKK in his old radio show. The X-Men are built on the essential idea of a community of outcasts that don't fit into normal society, not unlike the LGBT community.

I don't know if I would say Marvel is 'going too far' with it's diversity policies that have replaced most of their big white male characters with POC's and females, but thats because I know it's a phase Marvel is going through and eventually the old guard will return. Bruce Banner is not going to stay dead. Thor will get a hammer eventually. Cap is going to stop heiling at some point. And Tony will eventually get up and put a suit on. And ofc Wolverine will eventually regenerate his missing bits and pieces. And when they eventually make their returns, everything is going to move forwards with all of these characters existing side by side... until the next catastrophe kills a few.

I don't think anyone can really use anime in an argument as a majority of anime characters would be white. Why? Japanese artists have a bad habit of drawing their characters in making them look Caucasian. Naruto for example would not be Asian if he were in a live action film. Naruto's physical features are proof of this as he has blonde hair and blue eyes..Those are features more associated with someone of European descent, not Asian. It's funny how people will bring up white washing in anime yet not bring up when Asian washing is done instead. Attack on Titan got Asian washed by Japan when anyone who keeps up with the story knows that only Mikasa is Asian, the rest are white, black, and so on. There would be a lot of non-Asian characters in it because it's more associated with European culture like Germany, the UK, and such.

I'm not one who's big on politics but I think Marvel would be a lot better if their liberal views were replaced with conservative(I think that's right? Not sure what the opposite is.) Maybe then there wouldn't be as much minority pandering under the disguise of "diversity"

New characters would take time to build up brand recognition, and there is only so many times you can retell the story of the same character before losing customer interest.

This is not some "Liberal Agenda" it's a business move.

The unwillingness to invest enough in new characters/brands seems short sighted to me, but may be a necessity based off of sales.

They're just so obnoxious now. Like if Wyatt Wingfoot was introduced today he'd be wearing stereotypical Native American garb and would be replacing Johnny Storm.

Ironically, I think Wyatt Wingfoot is one of the only native american comic characters that isn't some sort of stereotype.

@thekillerklok: unfortunately this is coupled with an obvious agenda storylines are overflowing now with clunky poorly written simplistic attacks. Mainly over the top political attacks sometimes attacks on their actual readers.

It may be an ill-advised "business move" but there is definitely a "liberal agenda" involved.

I bought and read X-23's early appearances NYX and early solo stuff. I enjoyed it, but I am not interested in buying Wolverine comics without Wolverine or Captain America without Cap and on and on.

couple that with poor writing of an anti-American nature, or with gratuitous political attacks if a writer is interested in constantly doing this because they think they are clever or are winning people to their side or that it will equate to sales then I don't think I would be interested in reading them do characters I would normally enjoy if brought back.

It's not that they do it that's a problem, it's thatnw theu are doing it in an unimaginaive and stupid way.

I have in my possession a Hulk story from the 1960ies, on race stuff. Bruce Banner ends in a black neighborhood with severe tension, and an old black guy protects Banner from the young anti-white black hoodlums.

Evntually the black hoodlums get attacked by racist white policemen, and then Hulk goes and helps the guys that were after Banner.

It ends in a sort of "it doesn't matter if you are black, white or green as long as you are cool" kind of thing.

THAT was is OK.

You respect the character and put the REAL character into stuff that relates to whatever your message it.

Also the story line with Iron Man becoming alcoholic. It's cool it fits him. If they instead had Silver Surfer becoming alcoholic it would just be stupid.

The way they do it today is just DUMB.

The story above would today be that Bruce Banner realized he was in reality black but he had hit memory wiped and his black skin covered by bio-cybernetic white skin. Or something stupid like that.

They want gay characters make new ones, don't vandalize old ones like Iceman.

In the 80ies they created Cloak and Dagger to talk about drug stuff.

THAT was cool.

Your right, it is a business move, the issue is that it's marketed as liberal.

Anyone who has any media savvy can see how these things play out.

• Existing character is replaced with someone who qualifies as diverse by specific leftist groups.
• Original fans don't like this and complain to the company
• Leftist group is angry at original fans
• Original fans are now angry at leftist group
• This creates rage views, comments and clicks,

The comics don't make money, sales mean jack. What matters is that they can:

1. be used to keep the leftist groups happy
2. be used to create cheap advertising buzz

Your not going to see movie Thor played by a woman

Your not going to see movie Cap come out as gay.

Your not going to get a Tibetan monk in a Marvel movie (unless he's evil)

It may not be a liberal agenda on the companies part but the result is still the same as far as comics go.

I'd also argue what matters is that comics are the breeding ground for real ideas. It's a lot less risky to try out the maddest notions in comic book format than it is in movie format.

they trigger conservative comic readers lol

There's also the fact that a lot of writers outright don't want to give their new ideas to Marvel, or DC for that matter, because they feel they won't get the credit and royalties they deserve, so they often use their new characters and settings on their own creator own stuff, and hope that they can get some of that Mark Millar money.

I am deeply saddened that identity politics is considered the norm and not the exception for liberals from those on the other side/outside. As a long-standing liberal who is also a life-long comic book fan, this extreme fringe of our party does not represent all views just as the religious right has never reflected the views of all conservatives. There was a time when folks could/would make statements to the effect that "All conservatives are not racists, but all racists are conservatives" but I no longer believe this to be fact. The very nature of identify politics is racist at its core; people standing behind their own moral superiority which is more a reflection of their own regressive, bigoted viewpoints than having any actual intent to create a world of equality and harmony.

@hatutzeraze: you say the people that opposed the civil rights movement were the "definition of conservative" but they were all democrats politically, same as all the slave owners, same as those that were so brutal to the Indians that to this day Indians in America go out of their way to avoid 20 dollar bills because the democratic president Andrew Jackson is basically Hitler to them. The anti-slavery as well as the Civil rights movement was very much a religious movement I know it is popular to bash churchgoers and the religious right but it is what it is, I am not a churchgoer or a republican but I don't like seeing the left getting away with rewriting history just because they control most of the schools and media in America, the vote on the civil rights shows that a much higher percentage of Republicans voted for Civil rights than the percentage of Democrats that voted for them. I don't use Bizzaro Logic those are all just facts.

@tedsharpe84

I think I see where you and I are missing each others' points.

I absolutely concede the facts you are relaying regarding the positions of some Democrats from different times in America's past.

Your interpretation of those facts, though, is where we differ. U.S. political parties have not always been as they are now. Now one can roughly say all Republicans are more or less conservative and Democrats are more or less liberal. That stark contrast is fairly new in American history. At the time of the Civil Rights Movement & the Civil War, the Democratic Party was NOT synonymous with liberal stances, in fact often they were associated with very conservative stances. Liberals were the heart and soul of the Civil Rights Movement, and it was conservatives, both Democrat and Republican, who opposed it.

No beta-cuck could defend this.

@hatutzeraze: well if you are saying that political Conservatives were/are against civil rights we are definitely in disagreement. if you are saying dictionary conservatives as in those generally opposed to change I think we still are not on the same page the Democratic parties' problems were/are not mere opposition to change it was outright racism as embodied in people like high ranking Senator Robert Byrd. This was a problem of the left. The left still has a huge problem with with race and gender just look how much venom they have for anyone of these groups they supposedly champion who is doing well outside their party, they are so scared that "minorities" will see a path to success without them. I have a huge problem with the party of slavery trying to label people racists. It is too bad that MLK was assassinated he would have made a fantastic president and truly strove to bring people together.

The left still supports planned parenthood which was founded to curb the growth of the black population as much as it could. another win for eugenics.

I'm not saying all republicans are saints, but obviously the problems of the left are swept under the rug while the same gatekeepers in the media and academia look to magnify issues on the right the lack of honesty, the hypocrisy disgusts me. Today I think both parties are full of politicians whose main concern is reelection because they don't want the good times to end. life outside the bubble is not as fun. so I am not saying people should leave one party for the other.

my unsolicited and most likely unwanted opinion is the American thing to do is revolution like the founding fathers did.

how any of this relates to me getting to buy comics with the characters I know and love in them I don't know, and I like introducing new characters but this whole idea of mantle passing has never worked for me. I assume Mark Waid is left leaning but I would so happily hand over money for him doing Captain America again he took everything I thought was hokey and cheesy about the character and made me love it I have been a huge Cap fan ever since and find it annoying when the character strays too far from the voice Waid gave him. I like Roger Stern a lot from the older issues as well. But when they killed Captain America I stopped reading I thought Brubaker was all right but he did not get me to fall for Bucky, he didn't need me though lots of others loved it. I will read Captain America again when Captain America is Captain America.

I am sick of politics for now going to read some comics I have a huge collection lots of old stuff to read. Have a great day.

Didn't Kitty Pride drop a N-Bomb before?? Lol

@emperorxhadesx420: Three times, actually.

@juiceboks: So, I guess Black Mutants aren't Black at all to her. Lol

@emperorxhadesx420: Yea..there's a lot of things wrong with her logic.