Which Joker has a better design: Heath Ledger Joker's or Jared Leto's Joker?

He was smart, but him getting things doesn't mean he is established. Nor did it feel like he was. His underlings in the beginning were hired, but they weren't part of his group (they hadn't even heard of the JOker before then). And I'm sure the money he took he just hired more dudes to get his plans moving. He climbed up the latter quickly, but it felt like most of his plans were on him and relatively easier to do than what the Leto did. Which was get into high security places, get military helicopters and know where they kept the SS which was a secret facility. Also, Joker ran the whole city and even when he was gone for a while, things went back to normal for him, the top dogs were already coming to pay respect.

Ledger by a mile, Leto seems too much. The gold teeth and the tattoos come on really?

@danmarshall: well I acknowledge that there are exceptions, but as soon as the first picture came out the vast majority of reactions were negative and downright hateful, and that was multiple months before the movie even came out. I just think its hard to compare 10 minutes of a side story to the focus of a 2 hour movie, where an actor gave his all and was awarded an Oscar posthumously for the role that killed him pretty much.

Ledger.

Heath Ledger by far, better performance and looks

No, it means he got established during the movie, going from bank robbing to hit man and finally to basically being the kingpin.

Well, thats kinda the standard for criminal gangs... the people 'in the group' are usually not the ones actually robbing the banks, they have the low-level disposables for that kind of thing. And nothing appeared out of the order for the clown gang till they started killing each other.

And what Leto did was... what? Break into a lab? Steal a helicopter? And then break into a prison? Meanwhile Ledgers Joker was accurately predicting where people were going and what they were going to do and then countering those moves in advance... I'd say it was Leto who had the easy jobs.

Cant have been that secret since he was able to find a guard that worked there... plus Bruce seemed to know it existed as well, likely because people like Harley Quinn and the others don't just vanish into thin air.

I didn't see him run anything but his own gang, the only people who paid him any respect were the people directly in front of him because they knew he'd likely kill them at the drop of a hat.

Established means that prior to events in the movie, he was already the best. Ledger rising to the top (which he really didn't, since he just did what he wanted), is not the definition of established.

The Joker in SS was well known, but these guys didn't know the Joker even though they rob banks as a profession it seems. So no, it's not standard if the character is an established beast like Leto was.

That's a bit of a stretch dude, I believe he only had one backup plan, which was the whole, breaking out of Prison thing.(Also I don't think that being smart compares to the power Leto flexed in the movie). I like how you just underplay what these things are, despite that they are Secret or Government (meaning well secured) things.Also Bruce knowing about this isn't a minus. One minute you're like "Bruce is the best, he's a master detective" then you're like "Pfft, can't be that great if Bruce knows" Him finding out that worked there isn't a minus either. It's not like we see the guy blabbing about what he does and who he knows.

He went to him to pay respect, which I also find weird that you call Ledger the Kingpin despite him having scared the people to get where he is, but when someone goes willingly (even when he was gone) it means nothing. Then you had the Jokers Goons (actual goons from his gang cus they had all those weird masks) come into Arkham and shoot stuff up.

Ledger

However, I feel like Leto would have been the perfect representation of a modern criminal king if they just dialed his representation back a bit.

And the only thing established in SS about the Joker was that everyone was scared of him when in person.

Because no one 'knows' the Joker, and no it's not really a profession to rob banks, its a one time job (hopefully).

1.1 No, it's not, it's just exactly what was in the movie. Gordon even says it. Heck the Joker even says he didn't think Dent was the Batman... the whole tunnel chase was just to get the Joker arrested and put in the same building as the money guy, then get out. 1.2 Which was the power of any of Gothams crazy thugs, nothing more. 1.3 Because I am smart enought to see plot holes and very poor security (what kind of secret prison employee gets to play in illegal gambling dens?) 1.4 I am pointing out that this place is not so secret no one outside actually know about, you know, the definition of a secret. 1.5 No, we see him drunk... ofc he told people he worked in a prison, he was already so rotten to the core he might as well have been an inmate.

No, because it was the gang-bangers night club, Joker came to visit him. Yes, and Ledger had plenty of goons as well, as pointed out by Batman to Dent: people who escaped from Arkham during Batman Begins to be exact, the kinds of minds he attracted along with the low-level criminals desperate enough to follow him in hopes of a seat at the big table (there are always more gangs than just the mafia).

Ledger no contest in every way. I didn't like the Leto Joker design from the very start. And the movie confirmed my initial feelings about it. I disliked everything about this Joker. The only exception was when he was in a tuxedo. He looked decent there. Too bad he was basically a MGK, Wiz Khalifa hybrid of a "gangsta" crazy person who massages people. The cringe.

I liked Leto's design better mostly because he has bleached skin

He had an empire the minute he came back, he had intell and connections that could get him what he wanted. Plus Amanda Waller knew of him.

1)I'll give you that he was smart, but my argument from the beginning was that he was established and got shit done

2)There you go again, underplaying what he did

3).... you do know he has a life outside the prison right? Like... he doesn't live there. Obviously, the JOker tracked him down (like the scientist with the chips family) and threatened him.

4) There's a spelling error so I'm a bit confused, but I'm guessing you mean that because Batman and JOker's intel know about it, that makes it not a secret base..... to which I still say that you basically undermine Bruce by saying that anyone knows and it's not a feat of detective/infiltrating skill. And don't play dumb, you know what I mean by Secret Base.

5)Pure assumption on your part, cus he never did no such thing. Idiot Gambler, doesn't mean he spills secrets.

6)The Thug could have invited him as he pretty much says that he's making money for the JOker. Joker only kills him in a jealous fit. As for the thugs, there is no time frame as to when he got them as he went about killing the henchmen in the bank robbery. Had he really had such devout followers from the start, there would have been no reason to do such a thing and they would have known about the JOker, which they didn't.

Definitely heath ledger. I didn't like anything about leto's joker.

I did really like Leto's but Ledger wins this.

What empire? 5 goons with guns? Amanda Waller knows about everyone under the 'freak' banner, how else do you think she knew about a looser like Boomerang and Slipknot?

1. And mine is that it doesn't matter he's 'established' when we dont see any of it. Because all we do see is everyone going 'It's the Joker, be scared!' and hopping onto the comic train of bs logic of no one just shoots him on sight if he's that scary and powerful. No, the empire you are talking about is whatever room he just happens to be in, because no one knows what the psychotic is going to do next, which is whats scary about him.

2. What he did was what I said he did, which isn't impressive once you take more than a 5 sec look at it.

3. You do know that working at a restricted facility doesn't let you leave the rules at the door? That place you work at is also supposed to be a secret when you are home, in bed, at a party, eating dinner and so on. Failing to keep the secret under just normal employment conditions is going to get you fired, here, it would likely get you shot. And yes, tracking down the scientists was oh so hard when he already had to the guard to tell him where the bombs came from.

4. I don't think you know what I meant. Waller and her people consider it secret, because the public at large do not know about it even existing and has no interest in finding out where Ms Gonzo Banana's went. The Joker and Batman however do, and its not like government systems are the most secure in the world of superheroes... so those who wants to find the massive concrete complex in the middle of a swamp miles from anywhere, they will find it if they want to.

5. He's drunk and he owes money and already blabbering like an idiot even before he sees the guy with the cleaver, imagine him later during the night with even more booze on board.

6. The reason Joker waxed the guys in the bank, like in the other banks, is obvious... more money for him. They know about him, but only what word of mouth is actually saying about him... which is not coming from the dead people lying on the floors of banks. Sure, there are likely some that's suspicious, but those who are suspicious or concerned enough are not the ones that will eventually go with him... those people there are ones desperate or dumb enough to follow. And again, that no one knows who the Joker is or what really motivates him is part of why no one can get a bead on him.

Ledger stomps.

Now that i compare both Joker scenes, i realize how bad Leto was.

at this point can we just admit that people personally didn't like leto joker, not that he was necessarily designed poorly? so he has tattoos because its a big part of American (and crime culture). People actually believe that an unparalleled psycho would have these thought out, artistic pieces of work? He'd have a van Gogh back piece and a little bit of Shakespeare on his forearm, with some homage to kill bill (his favorite movie) on his collar bone? no. IF he had tattoos they would probably be weird and terrible. but people don't like it, so its terribly designed.

then we move on to his character portrayal. while I agree that ledger joker absolutely nailed his iteration of the joker, ledger joker made sense. the things he did, the traps he set, the choices he put people in made sense and had a motive. since when is that Joker's MO? I thought unpredictability and nonsense were the key points of the joker. personally I thought that leto nailed the intense/sexually awkwardness/scary part of the joker. the part where the security guard sees that joker is there and joker is very hands on and sits on his lap, was very comic book joker to me.

the clothes and car and gun were a bit weird, but joker has always had an odd fashion sense as well. ledger's outfit was closer to the source material, but there have been many iterations of joker that were over the top, or just downright different from the most established version.

In no way am I saying that leto portrayed the joker better than ledger. as I stated earlier in this thread, they both set out to do different things, and they both accomplished them pretty well IMO. its very hard to justify comparing the focus of a 2 hour movie, to a 10 minute cameo. I love both versions, but letos joker is much more comical to me. ledger was very anarchistic and thought-out, but those aren't things I normally attribute to comic book joker. as a fan of both actors, I thought they crushed it. as a fan of comics, I thought they both to on their own iteration that was entertaining. but I maintain that it isn't fair to compare the two due to exposure, and just flat-out nostalgia. If heath were still alive, I don't even know that this would still be a conversation.

I just thought it was worth pointing out that Joker burns all the money he's amassed in the same movie because "it's about sending a message". I don't believe that he offs the people in the heists has anything to do with less shares.