Which Joker gets a better movie portrayal? Jared Leto's version or Heath Ledger's version?

Ledger's Joker is the best live action joker.

This is seriously a question?

Hahaha

Wait is this serious?LEDGER ROFlSTOMPS!

I wouldn't call either my quintessential Joker but Ledger is by far the more bearable while also having it's own spin. Leto was it's own thing but it was a big swing and a miss.

Suicide Squad (2016) should be ashamed of itself for its portrayal of Joker.

Nicholson > Ledger >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leto

You've been here long enough to know this is a stupid question to ask.

0/10

At least read the goddamn question before typing your answer. The OP even bolded it for ya.

@theamazingspidey:

I did read the question, my response remains the same.

Name one comic that suggest that The Joker would do all that just to save Harley Quinn? He was totally in love. That's like the antithesis of Joker.

Whether or not The Joker would do all that just to save Harley Quinn is arguable, but he isn't utterly in love. That is just a false statement. There is an abusive, negative nature to their relationship. This here isn't romantic at all:

I know sometimes people around here get bored, but come on, dig a little deeper.

If you want to do a "Who's Better" thread, how about:

Best Bruce Banner: Bill Bixby vs Eric Bana vs Edward Norton vs Mark Ruffalo

Best Wonder Woman: Cathy Lee Crosby vs Lynda Carter vs Susan Eisenberg vs Keri Russell vs Adrianne Palicki vs Gal Gadot

Best Jimmy Olsen: Jack Larson vs Marc McClure vs Micheal Landes vs Justin Whalin vs Aaron Ashmore vs Sam Huntington vs Mehcad Brooks vs Michael Cassidy

Best Supergirl: Helen Slater vs Nicholle Tom vs Laura Vandervoot vs Melissa Benoist

There are a lot of comic book characters who have been portrayed by multiple actors on the big screen and small over the years. I would have been more interested in Cesar Romero vs Jack Nicholson or Heath Ledger vs Mark Hamill than the combo listed in the OT.

A little torture scene doesn't excuse the fact that he clearly loves her. Also, that was before she even became Harley so that doesn't help you at all.....

He doesn't love her. Where do you pull that from (and why is your answer "other people's comments")? The Joker doesn't love Harley at all. He physically tortured her, neglected her and robbed her of her humanity when he made her jump into that vat of chemicals. The Joker sees Harley as an object of his possession, that much can be seen in the scene where he leaves her to drown. Is everything The Joker did to Harley your idea of love?

All of that was literally before she became Harley Quinn, so again, your points are moot. Why do I think he loves her? Well....lets see....the entire movie he's pining over her, he risks his life by literally going into a warzone to save her, pushes her out of the Helicopter when it's going down instead of saving himself, and then he even breaks into a maximum security prison just to save her. His entire character in the movie centered around his relationship with Harley.

Joker luvs Harley

Bleh

I think there's a thread for this already.

They're too different for me to compare, plus one is the main antagonist of an entire film, while the other was relegated to brief backstory scenes for another character.

My personal favorite Joker is still Nicholson, but all the versions we've had (animated included) are all so different it's hard for me to say what's better than the other.

mismatch

Are you shitting us? Ledger was objectively better in every conceivable way.

Leto. Lol

lol seriously?

Are people still under the belief that Leto Joker does what he does out of love? I could have sworn he displayed that she was his property, and it made him look weak to lose his property. I'd say he cares for her a bit, but it seemed to me that she was more of an object that gave him joy and power and happiness than anything.

When was this shown? Was this before or after she became Harley Quinn? And still, what kind of Joker sacrifices his life for anyone, even if he did deem them "property"?

@buttersdaman000:

All of that was literally before she became Harley Quinn, so again, your points are moot. Why do I think he loves her? Well....lets see....the entire movie he's pining over her, he risks his life by literally going into a warzone to save her, pushes her out of the Helicopter when it's going down instead of saving himself, and then he even breaks into a maximum security prison just to save her. His entire character in the movie centered around his relationship with Harley.

Joker luvs Harley

Bleh

Look at the bigger picture. Imagine if there's a drugged up guy who's leading a destructive lifestyle of drugs / sex. He physically abuses his wife, and neglects her. Until, he decides that if she wants his love, she'll need to undergo a gang rape. She concedes to being gang raped by her "husband's" friends, who then decides "now that she conceded to the gang rape, I'll start giving her more attention." Except, he uses her as an item of his possession to impress people. He then abandons to save his own ass after they rob a bank.

Does it sound like a lovey-dovey narrative? No. Because only caring for someone after they subject themselves to gang rape for you is f'd up. And I definitely wouldn't be sugercoating it by saying the husband loves his wife.

Maybe he cares about her a bit, but you set yourself up by calling it "love."

That's a completely different, incomparable picture, and it's a little disturbing lol you didn't have to go that far just to not prove your point.

Did Joker subject Harley to gang rape in the EC or something?????!!!

Nah, what I think he did was take some revenge by torturing her in the ward. He then realized she was a crazy b*tch who actually liked the torture. He tried to avoid her, but she just kept following him. He then took her to the vat to off her maybe, then realized "Hey, I might like this chick", so he jumped in to save her. They have a great time together as the King and Queen of Gotham before Bats makes them crash their car in a lake. You have no proof of his condition at the time, so it's completely likely that he tried to surface for air before diving back down......or maybe he knew Batman would save her. Hell, if you and your gf crashed your car in a lake knowing there was a super hero right there diving in after you, I wouldn't fault you for saving yourself first. Anyways, Harley is caught, and Joker spends the entire time afterwards pining over her. When he finally figures out where she is, he goes into a warzone to save her. He saves her, then when the helicopter starts going down, he sacrifices his life for hers by pushing her out of the copter instead of even trying to save himself. And then finally, yet again, his pining for his luv still drives him as he breaks into a maximum security prison to rescue her.

You cannot tell me that sounds like The Joker to you lol

Heath Ledger.

Heath Ledger.

@buttersdaman000:

Did Joker subject Harley to gang rape in the EC or something?????!!!

No, but he convinced her to jump into the chemical vat.

That's a completely different, incomparable picture, and it's a little disturbing lol you didn't have to go that far just to not prove your point.

It's an analogy.

Nah, what I think he did was take some revenge by torturing her in the ward. He then realized she was a crazy b*tch who actually liked the torture. He tried to avoid her, but she just kept following him. He then took her to the vat to off her maybe, then realized "Hey, I might like this chick", so he jumped in to save her. They have a great time together as the King and Queen of Gotham before Bats makes them crash their car in a lake. You have no proof of his condition at the time, so it's completely likely that he tried to surface for air before diving back down......or maybe he knew Batman would save her. Hell, if you and your gf crashed your car in a lake knowing there was a super hero right there diving in after you, I wouldn't fault you for saving yourself first. Anyways, Harley is caught, and Joker spends the entire time afterwards pining over her. When he finally figures out where she is, he goes into a warzone to save her. He saves her, then when the helicopter starts going down, he sacrifices his life for hers by pushing her out of the copter instead of even trying to save himself. And then finally, yet again, his pining for his luv still drives him as he breaks into a maximum security prison to rescue her.

Dude, you're going as far as to justify The Joker's mistreatment of HQ in the movie as loving. The only area you've actually got a point in is that, yeah, I would probably save myself were I in The Joker's position. Everything else is just you creating your own love story in your head by doing leg work and creating your own conclusions ei. instead of taking it for what it is.

The Joker sees Harley Quinn as an item of his possession. Is he attracted to her? Yeah. Does he care about having her around? Yeah. But love is such a stretch.

1. Convinced her to jump into a chemical vat because she was annoying him, then realized he liked her so he saved her. And the mot important part that you keep ignoring is that this was BEFORE she was Harley Quinn. Not once did I ever say Joker loved Dr. Harley Quinnzel.
2. Analogies have to be comparable. Nothing that happened between the two in SS, no matter how much you want to prove your point, is as sick as subjecting anybody to gang rape.
3. Nope, I just watched the movie lol and Joker literally never mistreated HARLEY QUINN. He only briefly tortured DR. HARLEY QUINNZEL in revenge for basically torturing him, ignored DR. HARLEY QUINNZEL for being annoying, and tried to kill DR. HARLEY QUINNZEL before realizing she grew on him. After that, it was all luv from there.

@buttersdaman000:

Convinced her to jump into a chemical vat because she was annoying him, then realised he liked her so he saved her. And the mot important part that you keep ignoring is that this was BEFORE she was Harley Quinn. Not once did I ever say Joker loved Dr. Harley Quinnzel.

This here is where we disagree. Harley Quinn is ONE person. You can give me this bullshit of "he loved Harley Quinn but not Harleen Quinzel is an instance of you grasping at straws to suit your agenda. If anything, you're only proving my point that Harley Quinn is an objectof The Joker. If he only loves her when her face is pale and she's babbling nonsense about voices inside her head, what kind of love is that? Are you the kind of person who believes any form of affection people share is love and can be nothing else? If you see two twelve year old's holding hands and walking on a sidewalk, are you gonna say they're in love? Lol.

She is LITERALLY, obviously one person, but it's clear that after her vat jump she gave herself over to the criminal side completely effectively changing her identity. What you're trying to argue now would essentially be the same as saying Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker are the same people so Obi-Wan can't see Anakin as a friend without seeing the same in Vader. People change, and with that change they become different people. Joker thought Dr. Harley was nothing but an annoyance who tortured him in prison. When she jumped in that vat he realized that maybe she was more than that, and from that vat emerged Harley Quinn. Nothing in the movie discredits my position that The Joker loved Harley Quinn. You're the one grasping at straws here. I'm simply taking what I saw on on screen and analyzing it. You're doing mental gymnastics to deep dive in The Jokers psychosis to prove that he only saw her as an object. Honestly, what indicates that he only sees her as an object? Even his interactions with Dr. harley don't suggest this. You don't take revenge on an object, you discard it without second thought. You don't jump in a vat of chemicals to save an object, you forget about it.

No, i'm the kind of person who calls a spade a spade. I don't look at the spade and try to convince myself it's an apple because that's what I think it should be. Again, you have problems with analogies man. They have to be comparable. You can't take the comparison to extremes and try to call it an analogy. Why 12 year olds? Why not make them two 25-30 year old adults? why holding hands? Why factor the relationship down to the lowest factor a relationship could be? Do you think Superman loves Lois? Remember how often he risked her life to save her. Oh, well Joker did the same with Harley. The fact that I can honestly make that comparison proves my point enough lol

@buttersdaman000:

You don't take revenge on an object, you discard it without second thought. You don't jump in a vat of chemicals to save an object, you forget about it.

Well, ain't this hardheaded. Harley is "metaphorically" an object, not literally.

You're the one grasping at straws here. I'm simply taking what I saw on on screen and analyzing it. You're doing mental gymnastics to deep dive in The Jokers psychosis to prove that he only saw her as an object. Honestly, what indicates that he only sees her as an object?

I'm not doing gymnastics at all. I'm stepping back to look at things as one, unified image.

Here's the thing. They're not glorifying HQ/The Joker. This is a girl who he physically tortured, neglected, and only loved her when she gave over to her "criminal side", which you described it as. The Joker only loved this woman when she lived for him.

This is the important part of the story. Harley Quinn is "living for" The Joker. The movie literally tells you that she is an object of his satisfaction when he tells her to live for him. You're STILL questioning this logic?

What you're trying to argue now would essentially be the same as saying Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker are the same people so Obi-Wan can't see Anakin as a friend without seeing the same in Vader. People change, and with that change they become different people.

Talk about misplaced analogies >_> the difference between Anakin and Obi-Wan to Harley and Joker is that Obi-Wan wasn't responsible for Anakin's transformation.

Again, you have problems with analogies man. They have to be comparable. You can't take the comparison to extremes and try to call it an analogy. Why 12 year olds? Why not make them two 25-30 year old adults? why holding hands? Why factor the relationship down to the lowest factor a relationship could be?

You're the one whose missing the point here. What I'm trying to say here is that you see any form of affection as unconditional love. Two twelve year olds who think they love each other don't actually love each other. They don't know what love is. But you think any form of affection is love.

Dude, the movie told you this: "would you LIVE for me?" Does this sound like unconditional love to you? Unconditional love isn't love. I honestly don't believe you saw the Extended Cut (or the link of the motorbike scene from the Extended Cut) because Harley jumping into the vat wasn't her "embracing her criminal side." She was already insane, as we see her shoot an utterly innocent man.

So, The Joker only loves her when her face is pale and she's as crazy as he is. Do you think The Joker would still love Harley if she was paralysed? You need to relearn the definition of LOVE, mate. You set yourself up by saying he loves her. I'm not arguing against your point that Joker was annoyed by Harleeen, but was attached to Harley, but love is a wild exaggeration.

Ledger, easy. Not only is he the best live action Joker, but one of the greatest movie villains I've ever seen.

And while I don't like Leto Joker, I will say, I don't think he loves Harley. Obsessed, yes, possessive, of course. But this is no different from the comics. Plus, the relationship is faaaar from healthy.

Geoff Johns has gone on record and said that the Bonnie and Clyde angle is better than the comics take on Joker and Harley relationship. The movie also cut the scene where Joker slapped Harley, the helicopter scene is rumored to be edited, the jail break is strongly rumored to be part of the reshoot footage because in the original Joker dumps Harley against the Enchantress and escapes ( the one with his face partially burned). This movie may have been shot with the intention to show an unhealthy relationship or something ambigious but there is no doubt it was perverted in to something else entirely. Yes Joker loves Harley.

Tell that to the guy whose saying that clip is invalid argument because that's "Dr. Harleen" who Joker neglected and not Harley Quinn, lol.

Heath Ledger

Lol

Heath Ledger>Jack Nicolas>Jared from Subway

How can you say their relationship is different from the comics when he's ding nothing but pining over and saving Harley Quinn? Explain how their relationship is far from healthy too. You're posting scenes from their past to prove that their relationship isn't healthy in the present. People change, and the transformed Dr. Quinn is clearly somebody The Joker cared for SO deeply that he risk and sacrifices his life multiple times to save her.

@theamazingspidey you don't have to defend everything the DCEU does. Show some discretion. The Joker was horribly misrepresented due to the editing mistakes as Entropy_Aegis pointed out. Instead of coming off as the object she's supposed to be for the Joker, she's comes off as the beloved GF. I really don't see how you're arguing against this. You're trying to use the past to justify the present. That makes no sense. You're refusing to believe that people can change. That makes no sense. Your mental gymnastics have you doing so many flips that you're trying to explain the intricacies of pre-teen love to me. That makes no sense.

Joker luvs Harley. I can watch the movie and take that at face value. You, however, are doing 100 RPM's on the horizontal high bar just to defend the DCEU. Again, show some discretion. SS royally dropped the ball on the Joker. All they had to do was keep the bolded scenes in (from Entropy_Aegis post), and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Yet, they didn't. Your whole argument centers around the past. The torture that occurred in the past because Dr. Harley messed with his brain. The neglect before they were even a couple. The attempted murder before they were even a couple. Name one bad thing the Joker did, one thing that indicates he only saw her as an object, that occurs in the present, and i'll concede. Just one.

Also Dr. Harley =/= Harley Quinn

@buttersdaman000:

you don't have to defend everything the DCEU does.

Yep, a guy who defends everything the DCEU does, that's me. You got me there... I sure loved that Suicide Squad movie:

@theamazingspidey said:

@buttersdaman000:

you don't have to defend everything the DCEU does.

Yep, a guy who defends everything the DCEU does, that's me. You got me there... I sure loved that Suicide Squad movie:

Congrats, you proved me wrong. You don't defend EVERYTHING. But if you can see how bad the movie was, why are you so adamant about defending a representation of the Joker that so clearly missed the mark?

Everything besides Harley and Katana was awful is SS

@buttersdaman000 said:

@theamazingspidey said:

@buttersdaman000:

you don't have to defend everything the DCEU does.

Yep, a guy who defends everything the DCEU does, that's me. You got me there... I sure loved that Suicide Squad movie:

Congrats, you proved me wrong. You don't defend EVERYTHING. But if you can see how bad the movie was, why are you so adamant about defending a representation of the Joker that so clearly missed the mark?

Why would I defend it if I didn't believe in it? Obviously I believe in what I'm arguing for. I think Leto's Joker was a HUGE mis opportunity, but not for the reason you mentioned. I legitimately don't believe it was the filmmaker's intention to portray a healthy love affair, which is why it rubbed me the wrong way when you simplified it in your first comment:

He was totally in love.

@theamazingspidey said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

@theamazingspidey said:

@buttersdaman000:

you don't have to defend everything the DCEU does.

Yep, a guy who defends everything the DCEU does, that's me. You got me there... I sure loved that Suicide Squad movie:

Congrats, you proved me wrong. You don't defend EVERYTHING. But if you can see how bad the movie was, why are you so adamant about defending a representation of the Joker that so clearly missed the mark?

Why would I defend it if I didn't believe in it? Obviously I believe in what I'm arguing for. I think Leto's Joker was a HUGE mis opportunity, but not for the reason you mentioned. I legitimately don't believe it was the filmmaker's intention to portray a healthy love affair, which is why it rubbed me the wrong way when you simplified it in your first comment:

He was totally in love.

The intention has no bearing on the final product. I'm sure the Director intended to make a good movie, but you even think the final product fails at that, right?

The Director may have intended to show an abusive, one-sided relationship, but that's not what the final product portrays. So, yes, based off the final product, he was totally in luv.

So, from my previous post,

@buttersdaman000:

The Director may have intended to show an abusive, one-sided relationship, but that's not what the final product portrays. So, yes, based off the final product, he was totally in luv.

That doesn't matter, though. He doesn't love her for the right reasons. The way I see it, HQ is an object of The Joker's possession, as seen in his treatment of her in the club scene, which is why he made her jump into the chemical vat in first place. The Joker knew this ei. "would you LIVE for me." (I'm not even grasping at straws here, or drawing me own conclusion. This quote directly implies that The Joker convinced her to jump into the chemical vat for his own satisfaction, so she could be his object).

HQ may have changed, but The Joker didn't.

Leto Joker is horrible.

The way you see it is not how it's presented in the movie.

What treatment of her? You don't know that some couples like to swing and cuckold?? lol that kinky shit is right up their ally

The vat occurred in the past. You're still dodging the question.

HQ changed into somebody the Joker clearly loved

@donatellorawks people talk shit about the DCEU constantly as it is. you don't need to invite them to do it even more.