This explains it all. The only reason Slade beats Bruce is because of his looser morals.
@batmanplusjay: And so it continues.
Really? Ok.. "DS has enhanced vision, strength, speed, agility, and durability"...."YOU FORGOT REFLEXES! You're so ignorant to DS!! I can't stand it!"
Slade's reflexes get a ridiculous amount of focus in his books. Much more than everything else you mentioned. Not knowing he even has them but arguing so adamantly against him does show a significant degree of ignorance of the character.
Batman used his over confidence against him. But as displayed in a comic scan you showed, DS was apparently not taking Batman seriously and was fighting out of boredom. Bat man couldn't use his confidence against him? Again, PIS.
Maybe because Slade is overall more skilled and physically imposing than Zeiss? Moreover, Bruce did eventually defeat Deathstroke in that issue by catching him by surprise and knocking him out while he was busy talking. You sort of mentioned that in the OP.
Also PIS that DS could apparently "not try" against Batman and still win.
He did try, he just wasn't fighting as smart as he normally does. He was also amnesiac at the time, meaning he lacked the experience of his normal self, which is probably why he kept underestimated Bruce's resilience. And no, it's not PIS.
That rooftop battle where DS was almost beaten half to death was the most accurate. Because honestly like I said and as the comics prove(by comparison), Batmans skill outweighs DSs by a mile.
This is and has been your opinion. I'm not trying to change it.
You call my scans PIS like all of yours isn't. All of yours are.
Shitty excuse to use PIS scans and instances (like Batman Confidential #53, lmao), especially considering it isn't true.
But in no fight with slade has the writer made him do that. Especially that overly PIS one where he was "holding back" to a point of boredom. The one that was over the top to the point of no return was DS going through a fan so fast a CONSTANT LASER moving at the speed of light couldn't even get through it.
There's no reason to say that the Wildebeests' projectiles travel at light speed. They were never even stated to be lasers. However, a dying Slade did deflect an actual laser off of his sword in The New Titans #90:
But even this isn't a PIS, FTL showing as there's no proof he reacted to the laser after it was fired.
Cassandra is an established fighter. Trains under Shiva and Bruce. And has been for years. She's established.
She would eventually be, but not in the very first time she and Bruce encountered each other in Detective Comics Vol. 1 #734, which is what you're referencing.
Green arrow is established as you admit. He is as established as deathstroke. The only reason DS can beat him is because of his physical condition. If it came down to pure skill and DS lost his enhancements for a day, he'd lose against green arrow. Or stalemate him.
This is an entirely different topic, but you're wrong on all accounts. Green Arrow isn't as skilled as Slade, and the physical gap is even bigger. Landing a pressure point on Ollie doesn't come close to meaning Bruce can land one on Slade.
But to debunk your claim, Bat man mimics Lady Shiva's signature finishing technique the lethal Leopard Blow in order to take out the last and most formidable of the ninja masters that Lady Shiva sent after Bruce in order to help retrain him in the martial arts (in her own deadly way) since he lost his physical prowess when Bane broke his back. However, it turns out that he's modified the killer technique into a non-lethal strike which knocks the ninja master out instead of killing him. He does this to fool Lady Shiva into believing that he's willing to kill so he could pass her final test (Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #62 and Robin v2 #8).
Does the ninja master have any actual feats? Does he even have an actual name? He sounds like complete, unestablished fodder. Him being comparable to Deathstroke is laughable. Since you're paraphrasing a respect thread that doesn't include anything the ninja actually did, I'm going to assume I'm correct in my analysis.
Sorry. Typo. Meant to say it's an estimate considering his size and strength. NOW CALM DOWN and don't bash me for being human. Ok? Ok. I know how heated you get when someone misses or leaves out even 1 thing.
Alright.
Wrong. It's obvious he wanted them to finish him off. Batman could have done it himself. But he stopped himself in the middle of the fight to call Robin after thinking Brute would be down longer. And he was wrong and Brute got the attack off.
Sure.
No. It was Batman himself. He did draw blood on someone who took on those people and he did flip them. Whether toy want to believe it or not is on you. I am prepared for this to be ignored. Lol
No, Batman can't draw blood on someone like that. Neither can Deathstroke. Both have, but those showings are PIS. I could site Slade drawing blood on both Donna Troy and Wonder Woman, but they're unusable showings. Batman and Slade just aren't that strong.
Yeah, the piano the size of his body that Batman could break with a roundhouse kick and throw it 5 times over if he wanted to. It's made of wood. A big wood/metal box. Wood and metal means NOTHING to DS and Batman. So idek what your point is with that scan.
The point is that it's better than the Grundy showing by virtue of actually being measurable. I'm not going to bother with your idea of how easily Batman could do the exact same.
Batman also caught and held up a golden sarcophagus on his back then catching and holding a second one (while very impressively still holding up the first) with his cable line supporting the weight of well over 2 tons (one Egyptian statue of this type in the real world weighs 1 ton). What makes this even more impressive is that Batman has to wait (the time is unknown) until the first security guard (who Batman is standing over protecting) wakes up before he could drop the first Sarcophagus off his back and then wait until the second guard is clear from danger before dropping the other Sarcophagus. In addition, he's still amazingly able to keep his mind active by deducing that something is wrong with Man-Bat while having to support both Sarcophagi at the same time (Gotham After Midnight #2). 1 on each arm. I'm sure you'll say Batman holding 2 tons isn't impressive and that DS has done better
It's actually really impressive. It's on par with Slade's high-end, in fact, which therein becomes a matter of consistency. As to not dwell on that, between a weakened and injured Slade lifting a boulder off of himself with absolutely no leverage in Deathstroke Vol. 3 #2, lifting and throwing one of Gorilla Grodd's super gorillas in Birds of Prey Vol. 1 #24, and of course the fact that Slade blatantly out-matched Bruce in a contest of strength in Deathstroke the Terminator #7, it doesn't change anything.
Despite having to free himself from a straitjacket and benchpress a coffin lid through 600 pounds of loose soil that's suffocating him, Bats is able to break free from his own grave (literally). All this while not being in top shape to begin with due to having not rested for days, been subjected to drugs, and Joker's new Venom without time to properly recover (Batman #681).
This is just an impressive, albeit less so version of the aforementioned boulder feat:
The fact that the writer was trying to depict Slade at 25% only adds to my point. Though I have to admit, the similarities are striking.
Every time there's a fight between Batman and slade, they never have Batman use abilities and skills he has against him. They make him as mindless as Brute. You call this "crying" because you've got no counter argument.
I did have a counterargument. You have yet to concretely address it.
Batman impressively frees himself from the high tech steel restraints wrapped around his body through brute strength and willpower despite being mentally tortured by The Anchoress as well (Batman Annual v2 #2)
Even before his superhuman strength evened out, Slade was snapping his "steel retaining straps" into several pieces in Deathstroke the Terminator #1. He's done it while both weakened and wounded as well.
No guard? You just contradicting yourself. Earlier in your comment by saying "Batman blocked or dodged most of Philos punches".
No, I didn't contradicting myself. I said he doesn't even have his guard up in the vast majority of his fights, which is true.
Close, realistic battles are the best ones. People love those. Who told you that back and forth, poorly designed fights were "cool"? And here's some "guard" and realistic, close battles from Batman.. Since you can't recall any. Here more guard(martial arts):
Batman vs Lady Shiva (Batman #427)
The only thing he did in that which could be considered fighting smart was getting rid of Shiva's weapon, which he has done in his fights against Slade. He blocked a few strikes, but it makes sense that he can't do that against Slade as he is faster and stronger than both Shiva and Bruce. Otherwise, it was a punch-fest
Batman vs Bronze Tiger(stalemate) (Detective Comics #485)
The smartest thing he did was roll Tiggs, which he's done to Slade.
Batman vs David Cain (Batman #605)
Which was just another punch-fest.
Batman vs Priest (Legends of the Dark Knight #136)
A fistfight which ended with Priest trying to tackle him, and instead brushing through his cape and flying out a window. A smart move on Bruce's end, but Slade's never been dumb enough in their fights to try to just tackle him through a window or anything like that.
And I just addressed your Bronze Tiger thing. Proving Batman went against him to in their second round and came out just fine.
Two different Turners. Regardless, in their latest fight it was apparent that Bronze Tiger had improved since they last met. Bruce even told him that he "got faster." So no, you haven't concretely addressed it.
Nah, my scans don't come from respect threads.. XD They really don't. You can even check my recent activity. Lol.
This is just a lie. You've been getting your scans, issue numbers, and have even been paraphrasing the Batman Capability Website. I can draw on several specific examples, such as:
This is all pretty clear cut, so unless you're going to nitpick and say that the site isn't technically a respect thread or try to make me believe that you just coincidentally wrote what the site says word for word, you've just been found out.
And PIS? PIS?? Please don't make Mr call out all the PIS crap you've shown me.. XD
XD
@batmanplusjay: You gotta be ******* kidding me. My post deleted itself, and I had already lost my progress due to hard-to-explain reasons prior to that. That type of shit sucks so goddamn bad.
I was just reading through your argument a bit. And I wanna disclose I didn't know a capabilities website was a respect "thread". I knew it was a respect website but not a respect "thread". Thought a thread were only things found on forums when you start topics. Like my thread here. And I know a bunch of people know about that website. Just wanna clarify that up before I'm called out as a liar or something.
Called it, and called it. The distinction doesn't matter, by the way. Whatever you want to call it, it serves the exact same purpose as a respect thread, with all the lack of context to boot. Furthermore, you now admitting that that's where you're getting everything you've been using not only hurts your credibility, but lets me in on the entirety of your feat pool.
1. That wasn't the fight I was talking about in my OP.
Yeah, yeah it was:
And Batman beat DS 1 time:
http://m.imgur.com/1q6iF1g
Knocked him out with his own rifle.
OP
I was talking about the very same issue, Detective Comics Vol. 1 #710.
2. So.. DS throws an attack that's lethal. As shown in one of your last posts where he says "that's a vlowth at should have killed him. But not for the Dark Knight". But that attack didn't knock out nor case Batman. But here Batman kicks DS across the face with a non lethal kick and puts DS to sleep. This here should be enough to show you Batmans and DS physique aren't that far apart. Here's like an illustration of what I mean:
Now you're talking about Batman/Superman Annual #1, which was unmentioned in the OP, and also non-canon.
1. Batman has more feats and more impressive feats
I don't have any qualms with that.
2. Batmans history with martial arts and even creating his own unique styles out of them is something that would and should honestly be outweighing Slades physicals by a lot.
Well, it doesn't. Never has. Again, what Slade lacks in technical skill, he more than makes up for in overall fighting ability. His senses, awareness, physicals, weapons, and skill make him a significantly greater fighter, or more of a combative threat as @stormshadow_x put it.
Yeah, it is PIS. Being overly confident makes you overly reckless. Which would in turn make you fall into traps more. You just admitted he underestimated Batman and its just blatantly obvious he is too overly confident about it. Batman should have gotten that win of easily due to all the points you said if DS losing his mind or whatever you said.
You're calling it PIS based off of context I provided that you can't even recall. Batman did win, but not after being dominated in hand-to-hand three times over. Bruce did eventually take advantage of being underestimated. He even won because of it. He engaged in hand-to-hand repeatedly because he had no other option. Deathstroke had a shot lined up and Bruce had to make sure he didn't take it, in the most immediate fashion.
His skill outweighs the physique by a mile.
As soon as that isn't contradicted by everything in the comics, I'll concede. Until then, I've already proven that the 'myth' that Deathstroke has defeated Batman more times than not is absolutely true, and you have made no headway in proving otherwise.
I mean, in Detective Comics #710, it was made obvious that Slade's physical advantage is greater than anything Batman had on his end. Even Robin was scared for Bruce, because of the fact that Slade "might be" a metahuman. In fact, this was even evident in their first fight. Deathstroke had praised Batman's skill, but followed it up with "But you're just an ordinary man", listing being stronger and faster as two of the reasons he'd win, and then did. The exact notion that you've been pushing this entire time is completely opposite of the one that's been flat out stated in the comics.
Doesn't take away all the PIS scans you've thrown at me.
Red herring.
But there's also no proof it was an accident. The writers were implying he reacted to it after it was fired because in the scan it doesn't even show a pic of DS noticing the gun about to fire before hand and reacting accordingly. What else can you assume? That he accidentally moved his sword in a position that saved his life?
Oh, so we agree that the fan showing is legitimate. Anyway, "no proof for this means this other unsubstantiated thing is what happened" isn't a viable argument. But I'm patient, so I'll entertain it. In that case, who said anything about it being an accident? Slade was capable of outpacing the shooter's reflexes, and that's all there is to it. He didn't deflect the laser on accident and he didn't outpace the laser itself. I can't even decide which notion is more ridiculous.
I'm expecting that you'll actually agree with my take on the showing. I think the fact that you didn't think of it first wonderfully highlights just how subjective all of your reasoning really is. "Moving on"
Says who?
Me, obviously, but that's also not how this works. You made the claim, it's up to you to prove it - not for me to prove false. However, I'll say right now that Slade's technical skill showings are decisively better than Ollie's. I say this as the best of the Vine's go-to Deathstroke guy and a pretty huge Green Arrow fan respectively. If you try to argue otherwise against me of all people, you're going down pretty hard.
Because he doesn't have feats and a name he is automatically a low level fodder henchman who isn't an established fighter?
Yes.
It's obvious he is an established fighter, even more so than DS because of his training history with Shiva.
It's true that the unnamed ninja had impressive accolades. Ones I'm sure you're exaggerating, but still. What I'm getting at is that he has nothing to back them up with, hence him being an unestablished fighter. I haven't actually read the issue in question, but I'm pretty confident in saying that the ninja's only purpose in the story was to lose to Batman, making him look good. Saying that someone that unestablished is somehow being more so than Deathstroke isn't even laughable - it's just plain cringey.
Other than Slade, no street leveler can just 1v1 Batman(and maybe Shiva but Batman beat her already. He is more skilled and more fit or the two) without taking a lot more losses than wins.
Now, I was going to rustle you by listing several street-levelers that would stomp Batman, but that would splinter off into a bunch of different arguments that I'm not here for. What I will say is that the idea of Deathstroke and possibly Lady Shiva being the only street-levelers that can beat Batman for a majority is just ridiculous. There's literally hundreds of characters that fit that bill.
Moreover, you just admitted that Deathstroke would beat Batman for a majority. Why are we still doing this, again?
Batman didn't. He made the floor do it.
Sure, that makes sense.
Tbh anything ranging from 0-about 900 or 1000 lbs, Batman can ragdoll it.
If we exclusively look at a handful of high-end, multi-ton showings from Batman, then sure. The problem with that is that it's also disregarding hundreds upon hundreds of his other showings, many of which include instances where he struggled with objects that weighed much, much less than what he can apparently 'ragdoll.' I can't even seriously argue that Deathstroke could do that, and we both agree that he's stronger than Batman.
That isn't and never was my argument. I already went over this in this comment.
What
This is to also both of your "the smartest thing he did is" statements. By guard I meant dodging, blocking, and basically showcases of skill. Which all of these had. Not just what the DS vs Batman rooftop-fight had. Which was Batman getting hits off first, then DS making an amazing comeback out of nowhere.
Have you even read their first fight? From the way you're describing it, I really don't think you have. Interpreting something subjectively is one thing, but it seems like you have no idea of what actually happened on the pages you keep bringing up. I'll dissect a handful of pages from it so you can see what I mean. I won't do the whole fight because I try to stick to the site's three scan rule as much as possible, but "moving on":
The argument that Batman's skill was "cut in half" when he fought Slade is completely unsubstantiated. He used just as much skill as he did in each and every other fight you've provided (Lady Shiva, Bronze Tiger, etc), if not more. That latter is supported given Slade is more physically powerful than all of the aforementioned, among other things. Additionally, I've already extensively addressed their second fight, and I can go over their most recent one in Deathstroke Vol. 3 #5 if needed.
@batmanplusjay: The majority of that had nothing to do with the topic at hand, so this post is going to be noticeably shorter than yours.
I said "Batman should have won *easily* because of it". Wasn't saying Batman never won.
I know what you said, I even quoted it. You called it PIS. Disregarding my explanation of why it wasn't, you still have yet to prove why Batman should win - let alone easily - under such circumstances.
That's like if Damian managed to outdo Batman in a spar(hypothetical), and despite it being obvious Batman is the better of the two as shown in feats, you say "well the comics say so and the comics dont lie so until they say yes Damian is better". When it's legit wrong and PIS writing why Damian had won. Batman has more and has better skill feats than DS. Much better.
...No, that's not even the same scenario. But whatever, an argument from an analogy is a very easy one to counter. Especially one that involves comparing Damian Wayne to Deathstroke. So here are the three strengths of an analogy, and why yours has none of them:
And now, let's move onto an equal number of actual counterarguments:
And Wtf is that
And Batmans are decisively better than Deathstrokes.
This is an especially pointless, very explicit red herring. I've stated several times throughout this thread that Batman is indeed more technically skilled than Deathstroke.
Let me be clear I'm not saying GA would win. I'm saying the reason Deathstroke wins is only because of his far superior physique compared to GA. Now I honestly would challenge you if I had more info about GA.
I didn't imply that that was what you stated. I've been referring specifically to their technical skill, because you claimed Ollie was better in that department. Again, that is up to you to prove, not for me to prove false.
I might still challenge you if I can dig myself up a website to see his feats. I'm pretty sure GA has strictly skill feats as good or even better than Deathstrokes. So hold up while I look
Just don't bother. You've got enough on your hands. You don't need to scavenge around for Green Arrow's best skill showings, I know them off the top of my head. I also know that Slade went untouched by an amped Green Arrow and his backup, only to kill him at the end of the issue, Green Arrow Vol. 5 #51. Seriously, you didn't know anything about Green Arrow when you made the claim, you still don't, so just drop this part of the argument. It'll only leave you embarrassed, and I speak entirely from experience.
He's not unestablished. At all. "I'm confident they made him fight Batman alone to make him look good". Or maybe he actually was established enough to even hit Batman(which I don't think he did). Otherwise Shiva would have sent more ninja if she really thought he wasn't ready.
He is, and I've already explained why. He's got a couple of accolades and nothing to back them up with. Get back to me on this when you actually have feats. Otherwise, this is you being "trapped" in that "dead end" argument you spoke of earlier.
No. I said he wouldn't take more losses than wins. But he also wouldn't take more wins that losses. Like I've been saying from the start, it's a draw. That's you who went and assumed I implied DS would take more wins. "I think the fact that you didn't think of it first wonderfully highlights just how subjective all of your reasoning really is" :)
I admittedly misread that part. My mistake. However, you as well are still technically misquoting what I was replying to in the first place. Secondly, you did say that current Batman would 'demolish' Slade, so your initial and current take on the fight isn't exactly the one you've been promoting throughout. And finally, that's just not what subjectivity is.
After that you conceded on two different things (and let's not understate how crucial they were to proving your point), and went on about a bunch of unrelated stuff that should be kept in PMs and/or its own thread. This is all per the rules, mainly. Don't mistake this for me giving up, though. I'm game if you are.
@nerevarine_11: Ok DS wanker.
Lmao so I'm a wanker for saying one is objectively better in a fight?
This is you right now isn't it?
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