THE KILLING JOKE REVIEW

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kbroskywalker

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Edited By kbroskywalker

"I'm gonna ask you politely one more time... BUY THE DVD!"

Seeing mark hamil talk about being the joker was great btw...

So I saw killing joke in the front row(I prefer sitting at the front) with a friend who isn't all that knowledgeable about comics, he liked it, here's what i thought:

It started fantastic(I mean like the very beginning before certain things happened). I didn't mind batgirl getting a role at the beggining. In fact save for(a really really, REALLY stupid decision) it worked great. With batman's abyss speech(watch crisis on two earths, he really likes talking about abysses, and its great to hear,) then batgirl almost crossing the line when she thought she saw the abyss with someone she cared about(IN A FATHER/MENTOR SORT OF WAY. As far as I'm considered any other sort of manner is a fan fiction and NON CANON) being a great way to foreshadow what the joker was going to do in this movie.

Now I'll have to address the bad part(THE REALLY BAD PART) See it was all perfect. Batgirl turning on bats as dick grayson did was great. batgirl actually flipping him by suprsing bats with her anger and batgirl stopping just short of seriously hurting her(MENTOR DAMMIT, nothing else!), but then... the r rating attacked. Now I'm fairly sure they didn't need what happened for thre r rating, it shouldn't have affected the rating as it was implied not shown, and it wasn't worth the r rating either. But they just to had to pull a SORTA Judas Contract(And no I'm not at all suggesting that those scans in judas contract were no worse, they were ALOT WORSE. LIKE 12 YEAR OLD AND SOMEONE BATMAN AGED WORSE.). Its not definsible. Legal or not, its bats and his friend's DAUGHTER. And the DAUGHTER was WILLING. The aftermath was worse, they just couldn't effing bury it, could they? When barbs blurted "IT WAS JUST(yoga)!", I said wtf(non abbreviated) and got a chuckle from the crowd. You know what? screw it. It didn't happen, its non canon, its fan fiction. ZACK SNYDER'S NON CANON FAN FICTION!. If this had happened in a decnet to ok to good movie, i would have absolutely roasted the movie, but no. This movie was utterly brilliant otherwise, and this fan fiction had no hope of ruining it for me.

So lets go a little MAD, shall we?

Kevin conroy and mark hamil are the definitive batman and joker's, if you think other wise, then gramps hamil skywalker will force choke the crap outta you. The animation is right out of the comic. The parts they added(other than afore mentioned fanfiction) did not detriment if not add to the story. The action was awesome. I would have liked if they hadn't ommited certain lines, but those lines were in no way crucial(though they certainly would have been more worthy of the screen time spent on a certain other part of the movie). Batman deciding to go to the asylum after seeing what the joker did three years ago made that part better. The flashback was well handled( I think not actually hearing the cips tell joker made it better.). It was also brilliant how that preceding the tragic events in the flash back, the characters in the background were moving, but in the lead up to and in the aftermath of said tradegy, the background characters were STILL. This left whether it was exactly accuratre as the joker left it open to interpretation though personally I think the still characters represent something else. It shows that he can't remember the insgnificant things in a logical manner, but the tragedy itself was vividly clear which shows that the random "vile" tradgedy is all that means anything, the proof that life is MEANINGLESS, is all he can draw from it. By the way, joker becoming insane was right from the comic. That moment was an exact replica of the scan on the page it was based on. The additional action scenes were great, the song was done perfectly. The throw the book scene added in improved the story. It was a masterpiece. Sve for that non canon part of the movie, it was imo the best batman film of all time. That and one other scene.

The babara tease. UNEEDED. It changed the mood we had the movie, The story was supposed to have us being reflective, not getting all excited, but really thats not enough to sink something this good.

So review

Everything 10/10(masterpiece) except for:

fan fic: - 1(though as i grow older I'll likely just ignore it and give the point back.

ending tease: -1 though really movie was an 11/10 so rating stays a 9.

OBJECTIVE rating: 9 great

True rating: 10/10

This was one of my favorite comics(if not my favorite comics) got a movie worthy of it, me is happy.

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jasonhawke

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I was under the impression that, despite the smex scene, the movie was pretty average.

Even Mark Hamil's Joker says a quote that can be taken to describe the movie: “So what if it’s no good, it’s a classic!”

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kbroskywalker

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@jasonhawke: you take away that prologue, its my favorite batman movie. The problem is a lot of people had abosultely no understanding of the ending joke. People thought

A. That in the comci batman was shown to hae possibly killed joker which is wrong

and B. That the last joke was just a joke, people didn't seem to get that it was a metap[hor for bats and the joker.

And for people criticizing the animation, they animated it right out of the book

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jasonhawke

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@jasonhawke: you take away that prologue, its my favorite batman movie. The problem is a lot of people had abosultely no understanding of the ending joke. People thought

A. That in the comci batman was shown to hae possibly killed joker which is wrong

and B. That the last joke was just a joke, people didn't seem to get that it was a metap[hor for bats and the joker.

And for people criticizing the animation, they animated it right out of the book

Hey hey, you do you. Believe what you want to believe, people will be people.

Don't justify it to me.

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deactivated-579ecfa921bb2

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Eh

didn't enjoy it

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kbroskywalker

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#8  Edited By kbroskywalker

@jasonhawke: justify? AINT NO DAMN JUSTIFYING HERE!(I'm sure thats a movie quote, well at least its phrased like one, just don't remmeber the movie)

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TheExile285

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<___>

Why is there is a politically correct rating?

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kbroskywalker

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@theexile285: Because Objectively i have to factor in the god awful decision they made with the "yoga session' between barbs and bruce though I really don't want that to as excluding that this movie was so good.

Politically incorrect was the wrong word i guess

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kbroskywalker

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@616vulture: frankly had i not just acted as if the whole bats and barb thing wasn't part of the movie, i may not have enjoyed it either.

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Heatforce

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First off, dude you're obsession with Zack Snyder is pretty ridiculous. Second off, why is it not okay for Batman to have sex with Barbara but it's okay for him to raise side-kicks as child soldiers?

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@heatforce: are you actually defending a relationship between a dude, and the dude's friend's daughter?

Robin is not a child soilder, he doesn't kill and he's given extensive protection, i suppose that then we should say that flash, supes, and wonder woman are all people who its totally ok to have having relationships with their son/daughter figures cause they raise "child soilders"

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Heatforce

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@kbroskywalker: False equivalency. Regardless of whether or not Robin kills or batman offers special protection, the point is that Batman takes 'normal' children on his outings to fight serial killers and other maniacs. Yet it's even worse that he banged barbara, a consenting adult? I'm not saying banging Barbara is the right thing for him to do but having underage sidekicks assist Batman in his 'war'against crime is much worse morally and isn't even legal.

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comic_fan123

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It was alright, one of the best animated DC films though IMO

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JediXMan

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#16 JediXMan  Moderator

But they just to had to pull a SORTA Judas Contract(And no I'm not at all suggesting that those scans in judas contract were no worse, they were ALOT WORSE. LIKE 12 YEAR OLD AND SOMEONE BATMAN AGED WORSE.).

To be fair... as bad as it was in Judas Contract... Terra wasn't 12, she was 15-16... still creepy, but just saying.

ZACK SNYDER'S NON CANON FAN FICTION!.

What's Zack Snyder got to do with this? This is all Bruce Timm. He's been trying to ship this for decades.

It's implied they were a thing in the DCAU. In Batman Beyond, Barbara implies it. In Mystery of the Batwoman, we get this scene:

Loading Video...

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Guru_Crack

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Really looking forward to seeing it myself.

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kbroskywalker

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#18  Edited By kbroskywalker

@jedixman: i was joking

and didn't wolfman say terra looked around 12, she was beastboy's age

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JediXMan

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#19 JediXMan  Moderator

@kbroskywalker:

I have to find the scan, but you can see Terra's age on her gravestone at the end of Judas Contract.

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kbroskywalker

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@heatforce: but its ok for superman, wonder woman, flash, and green lanternt o have 'child soilders'?

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RustyRoy

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#21  Edited By RustyRoy

@heatforce said:

First off, dude you're obsession with Zack Snyder is pretty ridiculous. Second off, why is it not okay for Batman to have sex with Barbara but it's okay for him to raise side-kicks as child soldiers?

Exactly, not to mention all of them got tortured and some of them got killed. People will defend what they like even if that is more immoral than the thing they are against. Also people usually like to nitpick Batman more than other characters, like 'why he doesn't kill the Joker' thing, even though there are far more dangerous villains than him. The age thing, he didn't have sex with a underage girl and the age gap isn't that big, many fictional characters (specially Wolverine, Captain America, Wonder Woman) as well as real life couples have bigger age gaps; as for banging the daughter of a friend thing, I don't hear anyone objecting about Steve banging his ex's niece. They'd rather have Batman dating criminals. Like Joker said in TDK, nobody panics when things go according to plan even if the plan is horrifying, nobody objects if a hero gets raped but if two adults have consensual sex they blow it out of proportions.

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kbroskywalker

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@rustyroy:

I don't hear anyone objecting about Steve banging his ex's niece.

I think you know fully well why thats not the same as what bats did with barb

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RustyRoy

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#23  Edited By RustyRoy

@rustyroy:

I don't hear anyone objecting about Steve banging his ex's niece.

I think you know fully well why thats not the same as what bats did with barb

Tell me why it's not?

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kbroskywalker

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@rustyroy: because cap was frozen for 40 years and when he started something with ex's niece when both were about the same age

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@rustyroy: because cap was frozen for 40 years and when he started something with ex's niece when both were about the same age

That doesn't make any difference, she's still his ex's niece and he was still basically 40 years older than her. Brice is like 10 years older than her, there are many other couples in movies, comic books, TV shows, novels and even real life who have a bigger age gap but nobody has a problem with that.

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RustyRoy

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#26  Edited By RustyRoy

@heatforce: but its ok for superman, wonder woman, flash, and green lanternt o have 'child soilders'?

He never mentioned it is ok for them to have a child soldier, also their sidekicks aren't necessarily 'normal human' like Batman's are. And since when does GL has a kid sidekick?

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jasonhawke

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#27  Edited By jasonhawke

@rustyroy said:
@kbroskywalker said:

@rustyroy: because cap was frozen for 40 years and when he started something with ex's niece when both were about the same age

That doesn't make any difference, she's still his ex's niece and he was still basically 40 years older than her. Brice is like 10 years older than her, there are many other couples in movies, comic books, TV shows, novels and even real life who have a bigger age gap but nobody has a problem with that.

Does it really count as being several years older if Cap never aged or experienced anything while frozen?

Sure Cap -existed- that long but didn't experience anything or aged.

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RustyRoy

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@rustyroy said:
@kbroskywalker said:

@rustyroy: because cap was frozen for 40 years and when he started something with ex's niece when both were about the same age

That doesn't make any difference, she's still his ex's niece and he was still basically 40 years older than her. Brice is like 10 years older than her, there are many other couples in movies, comic books, TV shows, novels and even real life who have a bigger age gap but nobody has a problem with that.

Does it really count as being several years older if Cap never aged or experienced anything while frozen?

Sure Cap -existed- that long but didn't experience anything or aged.

The bold part still counts. Also not experiencing anything doesn't mean much, I'm pretty sure people will have problem if an 70 year old guy/woman who was in a coma for 40 years dates a 30 year old woman/guy, just because Steve still looks like a young man doesn't really gives him the right, if that's the case Bruce as well as many other characters in comic books also look 10 years younger than they usually are.

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#29  Edited By silent_bomber

@jedixman said:

@kbroskywalker:

I have to find the scan, but you can see Terra's age on her gravestone at the end of Judas Contract.

No Caption Provided

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#30 JediXMan  Moderator
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wildvine

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#31 wildvine  Moderator

Never read the comic, but I mostly liked this. Didn't like the spoiler *sex scene* spoiler, and I feel some parts could have been cut completely. The ending makes it worth watching by itself though. The real ending, not the post credits

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jasonhawke

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@rustyroy said:
@jasonhawke said:
@rustyroy said:
@kbroskywalker said:

@rustyroy: because cap was frozen for 40 years and when he started something with ex's niece when both were about the same age

That doesn't make any difference, she's still his ex's niece and he was still basically 40 years older than her. Brice is like 10 years older than her, there are many other couples in movies, comic books, TV shows, novels and even real life who have a bigger age gap but nobody has a problem with that.

Does it really count as being several years older if Cap never aged or experienced anything while frozen?

Sure Cap -existed- that long but didn't experience anything or aged.

The bold part still counts. Also not experiencing anything doesn't mean much, I'm pretty sure people will have problem if an 70 year old guy/woman who was in a coma for 40 years dates a 30 year old woman/guy, just because Steve still looks like a young man doesn't really gives him the right, if that's the case Bruce as well as many other characters in comic books also look 10 years younger than they usually are.

Comparing a 70 year old guy to Cap isn't relevant.

Cap is -physically- still the same age as before he was frozen. Sure you can argue how it may or may not be socially acceptable/wrong for him to be with Agent 13 but age hardly matters.

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RustyRoy

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@rustyroy said:

The bold part still counts. Also not experiencing anything doesn't mean much, I'm pretty sure people will have problem if an 70 year old guy/woman who was in a coma for 40 years dates a 30 year old woman/guy, just because Steve still looks like a young man doesn't really gives him the right, if that's the case Bruce as well as many other characters in comic books also look 10 years younger than they usually are.

Comparing a 70 year old guy to Cap isn't relevant.

Cap is -physically- still the same age as before he was frozen. Sure you can argue how it may or may not be socially acceptable/wrong for him to be with Agent 13 but age hardly matters.

Why not? You just said age hardly matters. That's what I was talking about, we'd give a pass to the things we like rather the things we don't even if both the things are nearly same.

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jasonhawke

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@rustyroy said:
@jasonhawke said:
@rustyroy said:

The bold part still counts. Also not experiencing anything doesn't mean much, I'm pretty sure people will have problem if an 70 year old guy/woman who was in a coma for 40 years dates a 30 year old woman/guy, just because Steve still looks like a young man doesn't really gives him the right, if that's the case Bruce as well as many other characters in comic books also look 10 years younger than they usually are.

Comparing a 70 year old guy to Cap isn't relevant.

Cap is -physically- still the same age as before he was frozen. Sure you can argue how it may or may not be socially acceptable/wrong for him to be with Agent 13 but age hardly matters.

Why not? You just said age hardly matters. That's what I was talking about, we'd give a pass to the things we like rather the things we don't even if both the things are nearly same.

I said age hardly matters in Cap's case because the dude hasn't aged from the moment he was frozen.

Don't be trying to twist my words around.

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RustyRoy

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@rustyroy said:

Why not? You just said age hardly matters. That's what I was talking about, we'd give a pass to the things we like rather the things we don't even if both the things are nearly same.

I said age hardly matters in Cap's case because the dude hasn't aged from the moment he was frozen.

Don't be trying to twist my words around.

I didn't twist your word, you could've said his age hardly matters. Besides again I don't see the point here, he gets a pass because he didn't age? That's unfair to the other guy, emotionally and mentally they'd be in the same state, just because the other guy wasn't frozen in ice doesn't mean he shouldn't be given the same chance to do what he wants.

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jasonhawke

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@rustyroy said:
@jasonhawke said:
@rustyroy said:

Why not? You just said age hardly matters. That's what I was talking about, we'd give a pass to the things we like rather the things we don't even if both the things are nearly same.

I said age hardly matters in Cap's case because the dude hasn't aged from the moment he was frozen.

Don't be trying to twist my words around.

I didn't twist your word, you could've said his age hardly matters. Besides again I don't see the point here, he gets a pass because he didn't age? That's unfair to the other guy, emotionally and mentally they'd be in the same state, just because the other guy wasn't frozen in ice doesn't mean he shouldn't be given the same chance to do what he wants.

Emotionally and mentally, they'd be in the same state?

Pfft, okay. Wow, belive what you want man.

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RustyRoy

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Emotionally and mentally, they'd be in the same state?

Pfft, okay. Wow, belive what you want man.

Nearly same state, like the state where they missed 40 years of their lives. Idk how that's so hard to comprehend but believe what you want man.

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Heatforce

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#38  Edited By Heatforce

@rustyroy said:
@kbroskywalker said:

@rustyroy: because cap was frozen for 40 years and when he started something with ex's niece when both were about the same age

That doesn't make any difference, she's still his ex's niece and he was still basically 40 years older than her. Brice is like 10 years older than her, there are many other couples in movies, comic books, TV shows, novels and even real life who have a bigger age gap but nobody has a problem with that.

Lol the age difference between Edward and Bella from twilight was criticized heavily. Sure it didn't help that twilight sucked (IMO) but that didn't make the near-100 year age gap any less of a WTF. Not saying Steve is in the wrong either but @rustyroy has a point. Everyone suddenly has puritan sensibilities regarding the women Bruce sleeps with. Bruce was legitimately raped by Talia and hardly a jimmie was rustled. Bruce bangs Barbara once and feels bad and now Bruce and Barbara are bad people?

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jasonhawke

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@rustyroy said:
@jasonhawke said:

Emotionally and mentally, they'd be in the same state?

Pfft, okay. Wow, belive what you want man.

Nearly same state, like the state where they missed 40 years of their lives. Idk how that's so hard to comprehend but believe what you want man.

Hey, don't try to justify it to me.

Believe what you want to believe, bottom line is that no one is okay with it in the Killing Joke. No matter how much you try and justify it.

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RustyRoy

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@rustyroy said:
@jasonhawke said:

Emotionally and mentally, they'd be in the same state?

Pfft, okay. Wow, belive what you want man.

Nearly same state, like the state where they missed 40 years of their lives. Idk how that's so hard to comprehend but believe what you want man.

Hey, don't try to justify it to me.

Believe what you want to believe, bottom line is that no one is okay with it in the Killing Joke. No matter how much you try and justify it.

lol I didn't try to justify it to you. You tagged me, I didn't tag you.

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I haven't seen any DC animated release get as outraged a reception as this one. At worst I've seen "slightly below average" (from sources I respect) for previous DC releases, this one however has been described as "terrible" and even "toxic" - this has actually piqued my interest I must admit...

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I have no doubt the reason the smex scene was there because bruce timm tried to infer that batman and batgirl had that sort of relationship in batman beyond and he's just trying to push it on fans again.

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Prospero_Locke

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while I thought that the scene in question was odd, I don't find it a stretch to think that people who spend that much time invested in each others progression and life wouldn't develop feelings like that. barb is old enough that she would have probably started seeing bruce as more of a mentor as they spent time together. he was honing her body, spirit and mind, teaching her everything he knew, having her back day in and day out, and he cared about her. of course feelings might come to the forefront between them. they are both supposed to be pretty attractive in their own standing. and bruce has always looked upon her as a pupil, but that's not to say he couldn't acknowledge her becoming an attractive woman with her own needs and desires. Idk. I just think because everyone saw batman and batgirl they immediately got all up in arms about it. I was kinda shocked in the theater too, but thinking about if from any other point than batman and batgirl its not a stretch. plus isn't the whole movie up to that point about them trying to win their own personal battles they have as characters and making mistakes?

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#44  Edited By Renzoa

No Caption Provided
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kbroskywalker

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@prospero_locke: so there was no way to show they make mistakes other than batman banging his friend's daughter?

@renzoa said:

No Caption Provided

THE KILLING BAT

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@kbroskywalker: while that is an extreme, that's more of a human/bruce wayne mistake than a batman mistake. and again, I wouldn't really call batman and Gordon friends. they have an immense amount of mutual respect for one another and rely on one another, but its not like they go fishing together or anything (that im aware of). besides, when Barbara puts on that costume, she is much less jims daughter and much more bruce's disciple. I wholeheartedly agree that there are different things they could have added that would have had a similar effect, but I don't feel the scene really broke the movie the way most people I have seen talk about it do.

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@prospero_locke: batman and superman don't go fishing together, they are still friends. Bruce and barry didn't go fishing together, it is explicity stated they are friends. If they qualify as his friends, then gordon definitely does

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Mr_Clockwork91

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@rustyroy said:
@heatforce said:

First off, dude you're obsession with Zack Snyder is pretty ridiculous. Second off, why is it not okay for Batman to have sex with Barbara but it's okay for him to raise side-kicks as child soldiers?

Exactly, not to mention all of them got tortured and some of them got killed. People will defend what they like even if that is more immoral than the thing they are against. Also people usually like to nitpick Batman more than other characters, like 'why he doesn't kill the Joker' thing, even though there are far more dangerous villains than him. The age thing, he didn't have sex with a underage girl and the age gap isn't that big, many fictional characters (specially Wolverine, Captain America, Wonder Woman) as well as real life couples have bigger age gaps; as for banging the daughter of a friend thing, I don't hear anyone objecting about Steve banging his ex's niece. They'd rather have Batman dating criminals. Like Joker said in TDK, nobody panics when things go according to plan even if the plan is horrifying, nobody objects if a hero gets raped but if two adults have consensual sex they blow it out of proportions.

+1

But seriously, both Barbara and Bruce are human, only natural you would feel attracted to someone you work closely with who is moral, rich and mature.

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Prospero_Locke

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@kbroskywalker: while I don't necessarily want to argue, id definitely differentiate between someone who helps you with tips, advice, etc professionally and someone who is actually there in the fights with superhumans, etc taking punches for you and potentially dying for you. either way, I still think in the heat of the moment, its much less about her being Gordon's daughter, and much more about being bruce's sidekick or protégé.