The Killing Joke Batgirl #41 cover removed

@thenaughtytitan: As someone who regularly speaks with feminists, many feminists do want genuine equality, but I look at it like this, you can't have equality if you only fight for one side.

That's like if Switzerland said it didn't want to take sides, but then immediately economically supported one side.

The reason I say feminists who want genuine equality should identify as Egalitarian is because of that social stigma, you can't accomplish anything if your group is associated with something like that, it is in your best interests to take on a different name, and support a movement that means equality for all, not just rights for one.

You can know yourself that a group is a certain way all day long, but that doesn't change the fact that other people won't know, and won't know for a long time.

Then there's the fact that terrible people who don't really care about anyone, but women will continue to identify with feminism, cause chaos and mayhem, and continue to use "Equality" as a defense for their bullshit.

There's a reason behind the joke "Because equality" because that shit happens, 'feminists' do it all the time, hell, there is a massive movement at this very moment to give women the ability to jail men solely on their word that they were, well, raped, and that's not only unconstitutional, but people support them because they say it's for equality and to protect women.

Which is essentially the same as handing every girl a killswitch and saying "If someone attacks you, use this" and giving them no training whatsoever, you would have more deaths than you can count and most of which would be for no reason. But they have support because it's in the name of 'equality' we can't continue to let people who don't believe in equality, identify with a movement for equality, which means we'd either have to root these people out and expose them entirely-impossible and probably ineffective-or the people who believe in equality call themselves Egalitarian, and fight for not just women's rights, but men's rights as well.

I won't get into it, but in the modern day, men face just as much inequality as women do, but because of the social stigmas about it, people laugh the concept off as a joke, and that's one of the problems that needs to be addressed, the fact that men in general, when facing problems, are simply laughed at, waved off, and straight-up invalidated. I can go into many of the inequalities-mostly faced in the law system, but plenty of social ones and emotional ones-but I believe this post is long enough.

@thenaughtytitan:

I have changed my mind, the problem is the people who do not see what feminists are advocating for, they need to change their thoughts. It is hard for them to do this because of all the confusion that the ignorant sexist people who wrongly refer to themselves as feminists cause.

those types need cleansing so that feminists can have a chance

Exactly. There hasn't been any indication of Babs being a rape victim.

@jayc1324: the enemy

@conner_wolf: No matter what they identify as they will be advocating more for women, women are overall less equal to men around the world so I see no problem with them identifying as feminists. Yes they want equality and they could call themselves a Egalitarion but the things is, they will be advocating for women more often then not.

I don't like your argument about women apparently getting a "killswitch" it is different in every rape case. Sure in a few more recent cases the man has been convicted by some of the public before anyone had proof, but that is not always the case. In a lot of cases women are shunned not the attacker. Also journalism can be attributed to why you think everyone thinks of the man is guilty, sometimes that is the only side of the situation that is reported, that does not mean everyone feels that the man is guilty.

Men do face a lot of inequality in society, maybe as much as women in some countries but around the world women face more hardships. I know what counter argument can be used for that but I am just saying that is how a feminist feels.

Feminism is severely flawed in some aspects but it is a cause with good intent. I can see why people are feminists and some advocate for everyone's rights but sometimes feminists go to far(like the batgirl cover)

It may be better for people to identify as Egalitarion's but who knows, I do not really care too much. Either way people are going to do supid sh*t.

Yup, they do know that feminism is supposed to be advocating for equality, right?

@thenaughtytitan: just call it egalitarianism, everyone being the same

Just hate some of those fools who outright ignore biology in favor of social justice

@thenaughtytitan: But that's still a killswitch, nobody has the right to such a thing, because as soon as they have it, they will use it. You are forgetting they can't do it yet, but as soon as people just immediately assume the man is guilty, and he's guilty before proven innocent, you know what happened the last time we had a scenario like that? The Salem Witch Trials.

And it doesn't matter if they're advocating for women more it matters that they wouldn't just be fighting for women's rights, they should fight for men's too, otherwise that's not equality, that's women's rights. You can't make every glass have the same amount of water if you only focus on one single glass.

Around the world is the key there, in some countries like Saudi Arabia or Africa YES women are persecuted far more there and MUST BE PROTECTED FAR more than men, but you can't have a one size fits all, the approach you take on Equality in India, can't be the same one used in America, or China, or Russia, or France, or Spain, or Ukraine, or ANYWHERE.

And I respect that you can at least acknowledge that Feminism has flaws, I personally am just trying to root them out, because well, I care a little too much about society and where it's going. As to why? I'll quote GOTG

Rocket: Why would you want to save the galaxy?

Starlord: Because I'm one of the idiots who lives in it!

@conner_wolf: I dislike a lot of aspects of feminism heavily but I can see the motivation for being a feminist, I am not a feminist myself btw. Anyway I do not feel like talking about this subject much more, tis a very exhausting and contradictory thing.

As an actual feminist I thought the cover made sense and it was good art as well. The Joker is a bad guy and he does bad guy things. Batgirl is scared of him but surely she will overcome her fear and deal with her problems in the story. There's nothing wrong with the cover; it tells you what story you're getting if you buy the comic and it catches your eye. It does what a cover is suppose to do.

It's disturbing like most DC stuff. I think people dislike the sense of powerlessness that Batgirl is giving off, the tear, the look of terror and utter helplessness give it a rapey feel. Just an image like that alone can spark off an intense debate on the portrayal of female superheroes in comics. So i understand the decision to remove it, but I don't care either way.

@thenaughtytitan: Feminism has been hijacked by SJW, that's why.

I guess every time an established evil scumbag character does anything bad in fiction now we should all assume the creators are trying to send us a message that what they are doing is the right thing and we should all do it.

There is no actual argument here that proves the people who got this covered pulled right. Violence towards women/domestic/sexual abuse is a real issue in the world, so you are suggesting we pretend it doesn't happen ever and just make sure no one is aware of anything bad happening? Great way to deal with a problem just pretend it doesn't exist and protest anything that reminds you of it.

This cover is referencing the story The Killing Joke which was is honestly without contest the most important story for Barbra's character. What did It lead to? Her becoming a better hero and it helped her evolve past the role of side kick and become her own hero. What did the people who actually read the story walk away from? Long time fans who actually had real feelings for the character felt real empathy for Barbra and a sincere disgust/conviction against sexual crimes more so then a person would feel by default. Comic books make more political stances then all the movies and tv shows combined each year, so great job taking something that dealt with a subject most would rather just ignore or pretend didn't exist, and instead tackled it head on and really put it out there for people to see and raised awareness of something truly awful and twisting it into the exact opposite trying to claim it promotes violence towards women.

I also made a blog about this.

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/teerack/blog/batgirl-cover-canceled/103293/#js-message-14155042

@dr_cheesesteak I'm reading a thread on that other site about this topic. What was your handle over there?

the same here, just w/ different punctuation - Dr. Cheesesteak

@dr_cheesesteak: Yup. I see you are in the thread, when I jumped ahead looking at names. I'm only on page 15 of that 35 page debacle. If you posted prior, I just didn't commit your handle to memory.

From the sounds of it, CBR is a peach of a forum. It's a lot easier to speak your mind on CV. Enjoy your stay, guy.

@risingbean: Thanks. it's definitely become more strict in recent years. Why? I'm unsure. It's actually lost a decent amount of regular posters over the past couple years, as well, especially since the reboot last year.

I will add, re: that thread you're browsing, I'm guessing 30% of its comments have been deleted. It was quite funny last night watching various posts just get scattered around as mods were deleting them as they were posted. reminded me of Tetris blocks collapsing - comments just kept being moved up in the thread as previous ones were being deleted. I wanna say a couple of mine were deleted mere minutes after I posted.

Anyway, all in the past.

How can you read the current Bat Girl and not expect them to pander to the (All-Seeing Tumblr Regime)? Isn't it marketed to the demographic that makes up most of that website's users anyway?

I don't see what's wrong with it and by that I mean I actually can't see anyway you could be offended.

Rafael had an interview with a Brazilian news network, I'll translate for you.

Rafael Albuquerque, creator of the Batgirl variant cover, said to UOL that he understood the response of his cover had, and that's why he cancelled it.

"Comic Book Industry was always machist. it's important for us to review our values and posicions". "It's essencial to learn to listen, comprehend who has a different view. Try to place yourself in someone's view and to consider ".

UOL - Do you think your cover was misunderstood?

Rafael Albuquerque - I think the cover had a lot of interpretations. Bottom line, the cover is not the problem, it's the comic which it'd be published. A comic focused on female teenagers shouldn't have a heavy cover like that. Not choosing the right or wrong side, the cover I made shouldn't have this prupose.

The classic comic "The Killing Joke", 25 years later, showed much more violence than your cover. VDo you think people criticized your cover without knowing the original material?

I don't know. I think who know Killing Joke understood the point . But, again,14 to 17 teenagers don't have the obligation to know about it, and I think, both me and DC, not intentionaly, made the wrong choice thinking the image would be appropriate.

The cover was pulled due to your request, did you receive any kind of pressure by some sector or person in DC Comics, to not publish it?

No. I made the decison. I see a lot of people commenting about liberty of expression and that I succumb to pressure. I always defended the minorities. I think it's right and integer I don't think a comic who has the intention to elevate the female self-esteem should have a image that can suggest the opposite. In other comic, that may have sense. Not for this current Batgirl. Liberty of expression also means to say what you don't want, and that's exactly the right I did here.

Even more we see the comics subject being questioned with excessive violence and women sexualization. Do you think those questionings are valid? Do you think, even they being valid, they can be exaggerated and can prejudicate the creativity freedom from the artists?

Completely valid. The industry was always machist. We're used to it and we live a moment of opening in this industry. It's important for us to rethink our values and positions. I think, indepedent from anyones posture, dialogue and respect is essential for the industry to not divide. Respect is my main flag here.

What's the legacy you want from this case?

I think, indepedent of your opions about the cover, feminism and lierty expression, it's important to listen. Have empaty for anyone who has a different opinion from yours. Try to place yourself in someone's view and consider his views. Internet discussions, always tend to become infantile fights, from one side or another. That's what makes people to lose interest in things. Critics are always welcome. But respect for who does, for who publishes and for who disagrees is always what validates your critic. Liberty of expression isn't always what you want or waht you like. Liberty has to come with responsability.

The whole issue isn't a matter of saying one side is right or wrong in terms of being offended or not. Its a matter of recognizing what people could legitimately be offended by and if I were a fan of Batgirl I would not want to see her appearing terrorized with a joker smile drawn on her face while the Joker has a gun to her head as a way of commemorating the Joker being 75 years old. That is just a kick to the groin of every Batgirl fan imo. Who wants to see their favorite super hero being portrayed that way especially when it has absolutely nothing to even do with the story being told in the book? Its a needless slap in the face.

On both sides of this issue I see self-righteous crybabies who are convinced only their own opinion is valid, and cannot even imagine how someone else might feel. No, apparently it's either "sexist men" or "oversensitive feminists", and this is why debates like this never gain any headway, because everyone involved has a knee-jerk narrow-minded response while claiming themselves to be open-minded and righteous.

The cover has no intention of promoting rape culture and is supposed to be reminiscent of a dark time in the character's past. It is an amazing cover, and if people want to fight against victimization of women and rape culture, there are countless other places to look (I recommend looking at the music industry).

@spambot: Its not just a random cover though to make Babs look bad, it is paying homage to a very influential comic book and arguably the most important comic for Barbara. The killing joke comic changed her permanently for 20 years. I don't think seeing your favorite character terrorized is a reason to request the removal of a cover. And the gun is not to her head. This was one of jokers best moments. The argument that you are putting forth basically boils down to now wanting to see your favorite hero in a helpless position, on a variant cover. She was also helpless in the killing joke, yet people loved that story. Not sure why seeing her helpless in a variant cover paying homage to that book is bad.

its fine to me

@jayc1324: I know that and the guy who drew the picture actually agrees that it went over the line and requested it be pulled. She doesn't need to be portrayed that way on the cover of her own book. What Batgirl fan wants to see her being portrayed that way?

To play the other side of this argument, I will offer my reasons for why I think it was a GOOD choice to pull the variant cover:

-It wasn't reflective of the tone of the book itself. I won't comment on it as a piece of art (I personally find it chilling and more than a little off-putting), but covers typically reflect the style of the book they're appearing on. It fails in that regard.
-It depicted Barbara as a scared, helpless victim rather than some who has recovered from trauma. Check out this variant someone made to show how easy it would be to empower Barbara in this situation just a minuscule amount.
-Is re-establishing Killing Joke as the definitive Barbara Gordon story the most original idea? I recognize that it allowed her character to grow in the moment, but it was largely out of a sense of saving the character in ancillary books like Suicide Squad. People refused to let her go, but what happened to her in Killing Joke is little more than bait for Batman and Gordon to up the stakes; it is a piece of fridging in an otherwise wonderful story.
-A vast majority of people who are defending the cover also make a point to say they aren't reading the book now but were planning on buying that cover; as said above, the fact that the tone of that cover (grim, threatening and unnerving) compared to the book itself (light, empowering, energetic) speaks volumes to me about a culture of violence that should be examined.
-The argument that having the same cover with Bane/Batman or Superman/Doomsday doesn't hold water for me for the simple fact that neither of those have the aspect of sexual violence.
-The argument that by protesting the variant you are trying to whitewash the existence of domestic violence also doesn't hold water for me. You can acknowledge and respond to domestic violence in ways other than selling a variant cover that features a woman being victimized.

It's cool I already made a poster of it.

@spambot: the guy who drew it said that something like that didn't need to be published for a book aimed at teens, not that it crossed a line. How could a cover cross the line when what actually happened in the book was worse? In the book she is shot, paralyzed and stripped naked. A picture of joker holding Babs crosses no line. I'm sure no batgirl fan wants to see her that way, but it still happened. I didn't want to see bane break Batman's back but it still happened. Sometimes your favorite character loses. There was a new 52 batgirl cover that showed her lying on the floor knocked out while joker stood over her with a knife too and that was fine.

@jayc1324: That is exactly what he was saying dude. That the cover crossed the line of what is appropriate for what should be on the cover of a comic aimed at teens and more so teen girls. What happened in the Killing Joke from 30 years ago doesn't have any bearing on it whatsoever. DC didn't have someone holding a gun to their heads telling them that they had to do a cover commemorating that comic this month. It was completely 100% a decision they made for their own reasons. Batman having his back broken is nothing like what is being talked about here. Thor got his arm cut off too. He got over it. The problem is that not only is she being victimized with a gun to her head but the insinuation that she is incapable of even trying to defend herself in that situation. Can you think of any male superhero who would possibly end up in that situation simply because a villain is pointing a gun at them? I highly doubt it.

Looking at this variant, and having read through the plethora of one-sided arguments for and against the cover (both of which just got scary as shit... more so than the cover itself really) I can understand both sides of the debate. On the side of those wanting the cover removed when I first read the killing Joke my impression of the shooting and stripping scene in question was one in which I felt disturbed. I really didn't like it for the rape overtones implied by my reading of the original story (others I know didn't read it like that, but then again that's always the problem with interpreting a scene between the panels) and so seeing this cover I for one felt got the trigger effects of the image and, as a result, felt VERY very uncomfortable with it, but that also comes from my original reading of the killing joke back when i was around 12/13 years old and not as someone white-knighting for the sake of being a social justice warrior. BUT at the same time i also acknowledge that the image itself is outstanding. The artwork and effort put into it is fantastic and the end result is the intended result. It creeps you out, and triggers those old disturbed feelings of reading the killing Joke. It's effective.

Now as to the whole twitter campaings going on around the cover and everyone lashing out at one and other for being members of the "male mastabatory, immature rape culture" or "OTT-claim to be feministst but aren't really", my take on the cover is this. The DC PR department royaly fucked up, but not for the reasons that twitter seems to be going on about. My gripe with this hashtag campaigning is that there was no "#changetheothercovers" as out of all the joker covers It's the batgirl one which is the most memorable (for both the good and the bad reasons). The others may have had the joker on them but they had no effect on us, with only the superman one with its humor being the second stand out one for me. So instead of singling out batgirl to only have the creepy, twisted emotionally triggering cover they should have done it with all of them! The Joker IS a terrifying threat in the DCU and its that aspect which should have been shown on all of these covers, but because it was only relegated to one of them it caused a PR problem as it showed that the PR department made a concious decision to chose only one cover to show the jokers true psychotic nature. The Jokers 75th anniversay variants could have been a huge thing, and DC PR could have gone down the route that Marvel and Dynamite (espcially dynamite) do with all/most of their books and make multiple variants for each book (i'd say 3): 1 cover showing the more humoristic nature of the character, a second showing the history of the character (with classic depctions of the joker throughout his 75 years fighting the various incarnations of these heroes/teams, and then finally the Terrifying/emotinally scarring covers which this particular batgirl cover would have fallen into. Sure we all would have then complained about DC producing to many variants, but it would have avoided the whole topic of the cover change campaign by showing all of these heroes (or for the more super-ones, their supporting casts) at the mercy of the clown prince, terrified and emotional. But then again this is the DC PR department that thought that a T-shirt of Superman kissing Wonder Woman with the phrase "SCORE" on it would not in anyway reflect badly on them.

In short, DC you really need to fire and hire a new PR department that understands the 21st centruy and how these newfangled computers and their interwbestwittersbooks work because, really, this whole "cover controversy", no matter which side of the debate you fall on, should not have happened.

Can you make me one, too!?? =D I want it on a t-shirt, as well...

Google it. Making a poster is easy, there are sites that generate one.

that monkey