Superman Vs. The Elite - Who was Right? Is there a time to kill

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Timandm

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#51  Edited By Timandm
@Sharkbite: How does being a police officer make the situation differant? (Sincere question, not sarcasm)
 
It doesn't....  I was only trying to create a scenario in which there weren't many options due to a lack of super powers.  it could have been a civilian with a handgun... Sorry if I made it seem otherwise.
 
It's the bad guy who makes the decision if someone has to die. But when the bad guy decides that somebody dies today, the good guy's responsability is to make sure that it's the right person. I respect human life a great deal, but there is no human alive that I respect so much that I will permit them to murder someone else in cold blood.
 
This is EXACTLY what I believe.   In so many different situations, a villain (or simply a bad person) creates a situation in which 'someone' is going to have to suffer consequences.  Often times, the question becomes, WHO is going to suffer those consequences.    A friend once borrowed my car and had an accident...  I didn't know that he didn't have a license at the time (as his had expired or something..)   He ended up signing MY name on the ticket.  He managed that as the cop used the name on the vehicle registration to write out the ticket....   So, I then had a choice... To accept the ticket and fine and consequences or show up in court and speak the truth which then put my friend in jeopardy for having given a false identity....   he created a situation in which SOMEONE had to pay.... I had to choose whether it was going to be me or him....  I chose him...    I think it's the same in many life and death situations...
 

To this, I would humbly suggest a slightly differant model: Commissioner Jim Gordon. Does Gordon believe in and uphold the law? Yes. Does Gordon protect the people of Gotham? Yes. Is Gordon a hero? A resounding yes. It is easy to stand in front of a gunman when you are bulletproof, or to run into a burning building when you are indestructable. Superman doesn't actually have to risk his life in order to fight against most criminals. Gordon puts the life of innocent people as higher than his own life, placing himself at risk in order to defend them. Superman puts the life of innocent people as higher than his own time, being willing to engage in an activity without personal risk in order to defend them. This is not an insult toward Superman; he's done nothing wrong by being indestructable and if depowered I'm certain he would still wish to defend the innocent. I am simply drawing attention to the fact that, on a morality level, Gordon is at least as heroic as Superman, if not moreso.

Now, does Gordon believe in killing? Yes. Police officers, something that does exist in real life, something to which there are actually rules which can be analyzed without making unfounded assumptions, are taught in Academy that lethal force may be necessary in some instances. Police do not go all Punisher and shoot every criminal they find. Officers do try to detain every subject alive if possible. But, when placed in a situation of defending life, when forced to choose between the life of the criminal or the life of the victim, an Officer is taught to value the victim over the criminal. When some guy carries a submachinegun onto a college campus and starts mowing down students, the police do not yell for him to surrender while he kills even more; they put him down.

Does a police officer become a vigilante/antihero/villain if they kill a murderer in order to defend the life of a victim? Nope. Heck, they might even get a medal for it. That's what the law says. Legally, it is okay to kill in certain circumstances. Being a hero doesn't mean that you never kill; being a hero means that you value life, so you never take it casually. You don't kill if you don't have to, but when you do have to, you accept the responsability that comes along with it and make the difficult decisions that other people are unwilling or unable to do. The cop shoots the murderer to save the victim because the cop is the one trained to do it, the cop is the one prepared for the situation, and the cop is the one willing to accept the responsability and live with the consequences. For some real life police officers it may mean years of nightmares or counseling in order to come to terms with what they have done, but they accept that upon themselves in order to protect other people from having to suffer instead. Because a hero is willing to sacrifice for the good of others.

The law grants provisions for anyone, including persons whom are not sworn police officers, to be able to kill in certain situations. The most commonly regarded, of course, is Self-Defense. Regardless of his legal status, the second someone starts opening fire on Batman and shooting willy-nilly, he is actually legally justified in returning fire. He can take a life in that situation in order to defend his own. This is differant for Superman because, as Superman's powers result in him not actually being in danger from most attacks, he doesn't have to defend himself. If a knife-wielding psycho decides to stab Superman, Superman does not have to kill him because Superman is not in any danger; he can thwart this criminal simply by standing around waiting for the cops to show up. Jimmy Olsen, however, is not immune to stab wounds. If that same psycho decides to stab Jimmy, Superman is justified in killing them to save Jimmy.

The policy is to use "the least degree of force necessary in order to overcome resistance, obtain compliance, and establish the public safety". In short, lethal force is the last resort. Anyone can kill the man who breaks into their home and holds their family at gunpoint, but only if killing is the only reasonable way to stop them. For you or I, killing that man is reasonable. For Batman, with his extra training and equipment, he may be capable of doing something that we cannot. For Superman, immune to bullets and able to move faster than the human eye, it is hard to justify these actions because he has more options at his disposal than the rest of us.

But when Superman fights Metallo, or Doomsday, or Kryptonite Man, in those instances suddenly the option of killing in order to defend his own life and others is much more on the table.

The rigid No-Kill Code is an attitude of selfishness and irresponsability. Imagine a Police Officer who permits a serial killer to stab someone right in front of him and then escape and continue his killing spree all because he was unwilling to shoot when the situation warranted it. Imagine a soldier who permits dozens of his fellow mates to die under a bombing because he is unwilling to shoot the enemy at the controls. The No-Kill Code takes no regard for the victims and only considers the self: what would killing this person do to me? What would I become? The No-Kill Code refuses to make the difficult decisions, because ultimately the No-Kill Code is a cowardly choice of forcing the responsability onto others.

It's okay that Superman doesn't kill the normal criminal, because he doesn't have to. But when Superman faces the Super-Criminal, the person he legitimately needs to kill in order to defend human life, he has an obligation. We've all heard the "..great power.. great responsability.." speech, and there is no responsability greater than making decisions of life and death.
 
I just wanted to repost what you said earlier because it's spot on.  Well said!

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Timandm

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#52  Edited By Timandm
@Lvenger: Police officers are in a whole different set of circumstances than I am. The reason why I would never work in the police force or the army is that at some point I may have to take a life and that's something I do not wish to do as the value of human life in all its small probability is what makes it so unique and worth cherishing. Look the fact is that just holding Superman and Spider-Man's no killing statuses as examples isn't enough. By taking the lives of criminals and those who deserve it, you're just enforcing a vicious circle of an eye for an eye justice. And as Gandhi put it "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind." If that kind of justice was enforced then it would degrade into more and more cases requiring death and the society we live in would be a less fair and just one and that's not what Superman stands for. He stands for showing mercy to those who you feel don't deserve it, doing the right thing against all the insurmountable odds and striving for a better world to live in. That's why I'm inspired by Superman's moral code.
 
I respect that.  You feel you could never take another human life regardless of the situation.  and I've known people like that...
 
Do you see police or soldiers killing the enemy as a necessary evil?
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Lvenger

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#53  Edited By Lvenger

@Timandm: Well no because it's part of their job. I disagree with it but I can understand it.

@Sharkbite: Well that's the difference between you and me because I've been raised to respect life and not to try and take it into my own hands. I won't do that with any murderer or criminal. There's always a way to incapacitate them which your example leaves out. Killing should not be taken lightly and if there is another option, I explore that one in its fullest.

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Teerack

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#54  Edited By Teerack

This is a time to kill.

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Manwhohaseverything

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In real life..of course killing, under very dire circumstances is an only option. (I'm thinking self-defense times here.)

In my comics, however, I prefer heroes that don't. It's why I could never get into the Punisher. Not that I disagree with his methods (well, not always) but if he's simply a guy that kills whatever he thinks is evil, all he is is a guy fed-up with the ills of society that has the means to kill. Not saying it makes him a bad guy, but it makes him very human. I prefer my heroes to be more than that. The whole point of a Superman, isn't that he can move planets or fly really fast; it's that he finds a way to rise above the base emotions that ordinary humans are sometimes slaves to. if someone killed my grand-daughter..I'd want them dead, but that's not my best side talking, that's my desire for vengeance talking. It's the same reason I can understand why Batman hasn't killed Joker... but I sympathize with someone like Red Hood who would if he could.

It's a tricky issue and one I've bounced back and forth on through the years.

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Timandm

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#56  Edited By Timandm
@Lvenger said:

@Timandm: Well no because it's part of their job. I disagree with it but I can understand it.

@Sharkbite: Well that's the difference between you and me because I've been raised to respect life and not to try and take it into my own hands. I won't do that with any murderer or criminal. There's always a way to incapacitate them which your example leaves out. Killing should not be taken lightly and if there is another option, I explore that one in its fullest.

Okay, well... I'm trying to understand where your coming from.  On the one hand, you seem to imply that taking a human life is ALWAYS wrong under ANY circumstance, and as such you would never do so.  There are many people who believe this.  But then, I ask if you see a soldier taking a life as a necessary evil and you say no, it's part of their job.  So, here's where the confusion sets in.  If taking another human life is ALWAYS wrong under any circumstance, how can it not be wrong for a soldier to kill?  I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm trying to reconcile a line of thought that doesn't make sense  to me... 
 
@Manwhohaseverything
I like what you said...   
One of the things you stated was that he, "finds a way to rise above the base emotions that ordinary humans are sometimes slaves to."   Now THIS is getting to the heart of the matter that I was originally TRYING to focus on...  I'm going to repeat it because I think you said it so well:

"finds a way to rise above the base emotions that ordinary humans are sometimes slaves to."

So, the question now becomes this; Do you think the fact that Superman has all the powers that he does, gives him more opportunities (more options, more ways) to 'rise above?'   With super speed and super strength and heat vision and on and on.... He can do things that 'ordinary humans' can't.  There are, quite simply, some options (some paths) that are available to him that are NOT available to 'ordinary humans.'  
 
For example, If I were forced into that old scenario where a group of rich, bored, evil men hunt human beings for fun.  You've likely read a book or seen a movie with this scenario.   Typically, a random person is kidnapped, taken out to the wilderness, released and given a few hours head start.   The hunters (with weapons, food, water, etc...) then hunt down and kill their prey....   If this were to happen to me, I wouldn't stand much chance of running from the hunters... I'm kind of large and slow.  I can, however survive in the wilderness and I CAN kill...  I am certain it would be much easier for me to KILL the men hunting me, than it would be for me to try and capture and subdue them.  If I waste time and effort wrestling one of them to the ground, or trying to render them unconscious without hurting them, they are likely to call for help before I can tie them up... and then the others would be on me...  However, killing a person is frighteningly easy (I mean the mechanics of it, not the choice to do so), and I could kill one (with luck and surprise on my side) in a matter of seconds...
 
Oh the other hand, what if the person they were hunting had 1: Super Speed, 2: Invulnerability, and 3: Heat Vision.    Would not such a person have options OTHER than killing the men hunting him?
 
I think, Superman's powers give him options that normal humans will never have.  As such, I think it's a mistake for Superman to think he can lead by example and say, "See that?  If" I " can do it,   " YOU " can do it TOO!"
 
I like that he has the no-kill code.  I hope he always has it.  I just think he, and others, should be more realistic when it comes to comparing normal humans to superman.
 
@Teerack said:

This is a time to kill.


"This" or "there"?
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Lvenger

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#57  Edited By Lvenger

@Timandm: See I find war to be a fruitless, bloody waste of life anyway so I'd object to that in the first place. If more problems could be solved through reasonable negotiations then there would be less war and less waste of life. As for your other point, Superman once said in Superman #701 that although he disagreed with a decision made by someone he knew to end their life via euthanasia he understood where they were coming from. Likewise I understand why a soldier or police officer would feel like taking a life would still be an option but I disagree with it all the same

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JamesKM716

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#58  Edited By JamesKM716

Nice post. I wish that Superman were a bit more like Thor was in Siege. Absolutely against killing, but when it comes down to it, he'll do it. He'll kill Sentry (or Lex or whoever).

But generally I hope he doens't kill

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Timandm

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#59  Edited By Timandm
@Lvenger said:

@Timandm: See I find war to be a fruitless, bloody waste of life anyway so I'd object to that in the first place. If more problems could be solved through reasonable negotiations then there would be less war and less waste of life. As for your other point, Superman once said in Superman #701 that although he disagreed with a decision made by someone he knew to end their life via euthanasia he understood where they were coming from. Likewise I understand why a soldier or police officer would feel like taking a life would still be an option but I disagree with it all the same

Well, we can certainly agree that war is a bloody waste of life...  It would be nice if NOT fighting a war was an option., but if you study history (and I love history) you will find that it is polluted with times when one group of people attacked another.  The ones being attacked have to decide whether to fight back, or do nothing.
 
The transition of every single dynasty in Chinese history involved violence and warfare.
In WWII the Jewish people in Russia, Germany, Poland, France, and Austria could have chosen NOT to fight back and just let the Nazis kill them... But the Nazis were absolutely intent on irradiating all Jewish people from the face of the earth.  They stated this.  There was NO WAY to stop the Nazis without killing them.  Can you think of a way the Nazis could have been stopped without killing?
 
Now, I CAN think of one example, in which a country was taken with threat of war, but the people of that country surrendered rather than fight back.  And the country was taken without a single loss of life...  The country was actually a Kingdom.  And the Kingdom was Hawaii.
The last Hawaiian monarch was Queen Liliuokalani.  She was a rather remarkable woman.  She was educated.  She could speak, read, and write in several languages.  She was a classically trained musician.     In 1895, sugar cane plantation owners (white descendants of American missionaries) wanted the monarchy gone.  They wanted to rule Hawaii so they could make more money.  They convinced the president to send in the U.S. marines to force Liliuokalani to surrender the island.   Many Hawaiians were willing to fight, but the queen knew her people would have been slaughtered if they tried to take on well armed U.S. marines.  The marines were trained soldiers armed with rifles and cannons.   The Hawaiian people had no military, not even a militia.  They were armed with things like Machetes and spears and a small number of guns....  They would have been annihilated...  Rather than risking the lives of her people, Queen Liliuokalani simply surrendered.  She was arrested, taken into custody, and that was that.
 
The U.S. President (Cleavland) acknowledged that the entire affair was innapropriate and said he would give Hawaii back to the Queen IF she agreed not to punish anyone involved in the coup....  Well, it never happened.
 
So, was Queen Liliuokalani right in not fighting back?  Was she right in letting the enemy simply take her kingdom and the land and homes of her people???   On a practical note, most of them would have died if they would have fought back.  But my question to you is this, do you think they had a right to fight back?  Would it have been an evil thing for them to kill those that were invading their home?
 
I am Hawaiian...  If the Hawaiian people had fought back, and been slaughtered, I likely wouldn't be alive today as my ancestors would likely have been killed...  The same is true for most of the descendants of Hawaiians.  Yet, while we are glad to be here (alive), there is still some bitterness and resentment that the Kingdom of Hawaii was taken, by force, against the laws of Hawaii AND the United States.   If my ancestors COULD have killed the invaders, I would rather that they had...  Evil men came and took the island by force and threat of violence. 
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#60  Edited By Lvenger

@Timandm: I do study history so I am more than aware from this. I'd have hoped by now that the history of war would have taught humanity the folly of engaging in it.

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Manwhohaseverything

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@Timandm said:

I think, Superman's powers give him options that normal humans will never have. As such, I think it's a mistake for Superman to think he can lead by example and say, "See that? If" I " can do it, " YOU " can do it TOO!"

I like that he has the no-kill code. I hope he always has it. I just think he, and others, should be more realistic when it comes to comparing normal humans to superman.
I think this is pretty spot-on. Where the grey lines come in is when we try and decide what is the line for killing/no killing? I think we all agree invader breaks into your home, wants to kill everyone. You grab your gun and shot him. No one is going to blame you for that. It's not like you have time to sit and think of other options. By the time you're done thinking, everyone might be dead. Likewise we can all agree: People at school tick you off, you walk in with an assault rifle and open fire. No one is going to say "Well, the kids were being mean to him, so he had every right." But, what about the situations that aren't so clear? Should Spider-man or Daredevil have killed the Kingpin by now? I think it'd be an interesting story for Superman to see that others that think differently from him aren't always evil. I'd like if DC gave Wonder Woman a vigilante attitude. She's a warrior, so I think she SHOULD have that attitude. LIke Superman, she has great powers, and has other options available to her, but sometimes in war, you kill instead of taking prisoners. Her and Supes could have some interesting dialog. I know they did this in "Sacrifice", and I was hoping that'd be part of WW's character from then on, but it doesn't seem it is.
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Timandm

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#62  Edited By Timandm
@Manwhohaseverything: I haven't read "sacrifice."  Maybe I should check it out.  and I would LOVE to see a dialogue between Superman and Wonder Woman on the topic.
 
Regarding someone breaking into your house.  I USED to believe that most people felt the way you and I did.  I thought it was just understood that it is not only acceptable but RIGHT to kill someone who breaks into your home...  But, over the years, and especially in here in comic vine, keep hearing people say it is NEVER EVER right to kill another human being...  I don't understand it, but they have a right to their beliefs.  While I respect their right to that opinion, I hope none of my daughters ever marries a man who would not kill to defend her in her own home...  it's odd, even Gandhi believed there was a time to kill.
 
@Lvenger said:

@Timandm: I do study history so I am more than aware from this. I'd have hoped by now that the history of war would have taught humanity the folly of engaging in it.


One would hope, but wars are older than recorded history.  What happened in Hawaiian was only 118 years ago.  Just in the past 100 years the United States has been involved in:
  • WWI
  • WWII
  • Korean War
  • Vietnam War
  • Gulf War
  • Second Gulf War

That list doesn't even include all the wars in the Middle East and Russia...
 
But you didn't ask my question.  In  your opinion, would it have been wrong for the Hawaiians to fight back rather than give over their kingdom to foreign invaders?  Would it have been morally wrong for them to kill?

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Timandm

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#63  Edited By Timandm
@JamesKM716 said:

Nice post. I wish that Superman were a bit more like Thor was in Siege. Absolutely against killing, but when it comes down to it, he'll do it. He'll kill Sentry (or Lex or whoever).

But generally I hope he doens't kill

You know, that brings an interesting question to mind...
How would Superman have dealt with the problem of  The Sentry/The void?   and Banishment to the negative zone wouldn't be a a realistic answer.
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Manwhohaseverything

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Oh..now that brings up another interesting point. Far as I know, Superman has access to the Phantom Zone projector. Of course, he doesn't carry it with him all the time, but in some cases that'd be a worse punishment than death, in my opinion. What if he started using it more often? he still wouldn't be "killing" anybody, but basically torturing them. Would this be more acceptable? I know..it's off topic, but I wonder if Superman has any objections to his Father's invention for handling criminal punishment on Krypton.

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#65  Edited By DeathstrokeMerc

The Elite is right. Letting habitual murders live is stupid with the inept law system.

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Timandm

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#66  Edited By Timandm
@Manwhohaseverything said:

Oh..now that brings up another interesting point. Far as I know, Superman has access to the Phantom Zone projector. Of course, he doesn't carry it with him all the time, but in some cases that'd be a worse punishment than death, in my opinion. What if he started using it more often? he still wouldn't be "killing" anybody, but basically torturing them. Would this be more acceptable? I know..it's off topic, but I wonder if Superman has any objections to his Father's invention for handling criminal punishment on Krypton.

THAT is an excellent question.  I get the impression that, in the negative zone, one just sort of floats around forever...  Eternal torment.  That's sort of like being sent to hell...   That might be a good thread.  The ethics of banishment to the negative zone....
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#67  Edited By JamesKM716

@Timandm: Miracle Machine! Jk

I think Superman would probably let him live, and then Aquaman would come in and kill him. Although I'll admit, I think i could see Superman being utterly forced to kill Sentry/whoever the villain is. If it were stuck just like that.

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The problem in the comic book universe is that throwing villains in jail does not work. They ALWAYS escape. How people does the Joker have to kill until enough is enough?