Star Wars Rebels Predictions

Will Darth Vader kill Ahsoka?

Will Darth Vader fight Darth Maul? If so who will come out on top?

Will Ezra become Maul's apprentice?

Will any inquisitors die?

only time will tell

@masterkungfu: I know, I just wanted to see what people thought.

Nobody has any thoughts on the new trailer?

Trailer was kinda meh to me. It needed CW, Kylo Ren callbacks, and OT or EU material to look interesting. Take those away, and you'll notice how mediocore it is

@nerevarine_11: Well it is kind of a sequel series to clone wars, and of course it is related to the OT. That's why they chose the time placement of the show. The highlights will probably be Vader vs Ahsoka and how Maul plays in to things, but you are right, besides those two things the other parts aren't as exciting.

Ezra will probably be tempted to the dark side but overcome it.

I really want Vader to kill Ahsoka and Maul.

Will Darth Vader kill Ahsoka?

I hope so. Likely not, tho. PIS and s#!t like that.

Will Darth Vader fight Darth Maul? If so who will come out on top?

Vader.

Will Ezra become Maul's apprentice?

I doubt it.

Will any inquisitors die?

Yeah. They are expendable.

@wollfmyth209: Maul's gonna destroy Vader

@darthduelist9: He should through their canon feats, but let us be real... Vader's gonna win.

@wollfmyth209: I'm still in the denial phase that Disney isn't going to screw Maul up.

Agreed. Either Obi-Wan or Vader should kill Maul, in my opinion. I just hope they do Maul justice.

EDIT: Funnily enough, my prediction about how TCW would end was that it would go all the way up to RotS and potentially have something like a montage of Order 66. I was hoping that they would show Anakin kill Ahsoka in the Jedi Temple during Knightfall. Since they went with the banishment route instead and had her survive, I hope she and Vader have a climactic final meeting that ends with her death. Done right, it would give her a poignant but satisfying ending and salvage a character that I otherwise find mostly boring and unnecessary.

@i_like_swords: I'm curious about your thoughts on Maul appearing in Rebels.

@silver2467: I have no good expectations for it but am willing to keep an open mind, lol.

@silver2467: I'd be surprised honest if they killed her off.

@i_like_swords: I know what you mean. I haven't watched very much of Rebels, and what I have watched bored me. I just find Rebels a very underwhelming follow-up to TCW. TCW had several flaws, and its episode and story quality was unpredictable. Some story arcs, like those with Maul, were great; others should never have made it to the editing office. But when TCW did it right, it was great to see. If my exposure to Rebels counts for anything, then its story quality, character quality, and overarching tone doesn't leave me too optimistic about Maul's inclusion either.

After all the build-up and tension created by Maul's reappearance in TCW, it would be extremely aggravating for Rebels to throw that out in favor of just having Maul job to his final death. I personally would like to see a Vader vs Maul fight but one more resembling "Resurrection" in Tales #9, where Maul's skills aren't lowballed to make Vader look good. If not, maybe it would be best if Maul never encounters Vader. I just hope Maul's conclusive death is not a result of Ezra or Kanan. We'll see what happens.

It will be interesting to see Maul in a state of exile and study though. TCW introduced a more visionary Maul who acted as a teacher and leader to Savage. It would be good to see Maul's knowledge of the Force will be expanded on in Rebels if he resumes that role.

@wolfrazer: Why so?

@silver2467: Because honestly? I feel like she's some closely guarded pet character with the way her appearance and such struck out in TCW, her attitude in writing in the Jedi Path didn't heighten my view of her either it just lowered it.

Which I get it, that's a younger Ahsoka and as a character she's grown on me somewhat when she becomes older in TCW...but the initial introduction to her for me was felt as a big fat NO and that's pretty much sticking.

Rebels Ahsoka is better which I'm fine with, but I feel like just Dave won't let her go that easy since she's become a fan favorite. He could easily just write her out of the story the same way he did in TCW.

She could leave the Rebels for reasons and then the story could continue on without her.

Maul's probably going to die in this, so either Obi-Wan needs to get his due in some circumstantial fight, or Vader takes Maul down in a brilliant showdown. If Maul ends up getting killed by Ezra and co... well, that's an actual possibility, I just don't wan to think about it. Chances are that people will spin these fights against Maul on the battle forums, so somebody might have to do another misconception thread.

Vader should kill Ahsoka, too. They'll be plenty of raw emotion available if it's done right.

What? Canon Vader/Dooku/Maul are at a very similar place to their Legends counterparts.

Mauls finally going to use lightning

Please Disney let it happen

@silver2467: I find TCW and Rebels to be underwhelming mediums for Maul specifically compared to pretty much any other. Comics, novels, the movie, canon or Legends, are always visually and narratively more appealing to me. Though TCW Maul has some great dialogue which actually reflects well what would be going through his mind, I just find him to be a bit on the comical side at times. Plus, he's already in a cartoon... the bright red and black tattoos just kind of add to a more, for a lack of a better word, cartoony aesthetic that I don't think works for him. He's a character that should be kept to print if you want him to realize his full potential, but that would detriment sales, so it's not going to happen.

This...

will never quite be as terrifyingly badass as this:

After all the build-up and tension created by Maul's reappearance in TCW, it would be extremely aggravating for Rebels to throw that out in favor of just having Maul job to his final death. I personally would like to see a Vader vs Maul fight but one more resembling "Resurrection" in Tales #9, where Maul's skills aren't lowballed to make Vader look good. If not, maybe it would be best if Maul never encounters Vader. I just hope Maul's conclusive death is not a result of Ezra or Kanan. We'll see what happens.

More than anything I just want to see his character grow. TPM Maul was extremely fanatical and filled with hubris. TCW Maul was interesting because he was even more unhinged but at the same time even more cold and calculating than ever before. He was overcome with the need for revenge, even more sadistic and bitter, and his emotions took bigger leaps than usual but when he needed to reign it all in, he had the drive and discipline to shelf his emotions and make these incredibly intelligent schemes that let him create his own legitimate third party collective in a galactic war between the two leading powerhouses.

But it doesn't, and can't amount to much because we already have the conclusion, thus in the space of some filler episodes and the 3-part Mandalore arc, along with a short comic, Maul's TCW career was completely stamped out. So where does he go now? What drives him? There was a slight amount of compassion he showed at the end for Savage and Talzin, but they were both killed off, so that's an aspect of his character that's being wasted; he's not the type to grieve and has no one left to care about. The only person he will want to take revenge on now is really Sidious; he got his revenge on Obi-Wan already by killing Satine in front of him. While I'm sure he wouldn't turn down the opportunity to kill Obi-Wan, I don't think it'll still be on his radar after all these years; he got his revenge, caused him pain, and now both of them are long out of each other's pictures. Sidious has freshly murdered the only people Maul has ever cared about; his brother and mother. And also, he has completely decimated Maul's attempt at achieving galactic domination.

If Rebels decided to take a Maul who has lost everything, and wrote him with all the same motivations (power, fortune, revenge), only to make a good attempt but lose again, I'm not seeing his appearances being all that great. If they put a new spin on him we can begin to talk. Maybe a Maul who just has nothing left to lose? Seems plausible to me. He's old, he's bitter, he's ultimately achieved none of his life's goals; the one thing he has left going for him is his aptitude for being great at hurting people. Him being a recurring villain who turns up just to be a vicious razor in everybody's side, from the Rebels crew to Vader and Sidious himself, would at least be entertaining and at most, pretty engaging for the other characters involved; to see how they react to Maul. A sort of, "who cares if I have to run away now, I just captured/killed somebody you care about/burned down something important to you/prevented you from achieving an important goal, I can come back and do it again later".

He can serve as a reflection of the damage of the Dark Side; what it can create and what it can destroy.

And when he dies, going by what I suggested above, he should be at the point where he doesn't mind. A scene reminiscent of Resurrection would be good, except instead it could be Maul plunging his own lightsaber through him and Vader, cackling while he does it.

I mean, I'm expecting slips-on-banana-peel-into-Kanan's-lightsaber Maul, but that's how I would do it.

It will be interesting to see Maul in a state of exile and study though. TCW introduced a more visionary Maul who acted as a teacher and leader to Savage. It would be good to see Maul's knowledge of the Force will be expanded on in Rebels if he resumes that role.

This is something else that's going to determine a lot of things about his character. Should be interesting to say the least.

@i_like_swords: I agree with you about TCW's portrayal of Maul. While I did enjoy just about every episode Maul appeared in (those episodes are some of my favorites from TCW), this isn't to say they were flawless. About the "cartoony" appearance of him, I follow you on that and agree. There are a few scenes in combat when Maul takes a hit that I just laugh at because it looks too silly, a result of the animation style. One thing I will say in TCW's favor though is that TCW's character model for Maul is more intimidating than most other characters on the show. So in comparison with Maul's appearances in adult novels and comics, he looks unimpressive in TCW, but in comparison with other characters in TCW's own medium, Maul looks impressive.

Regarding characterization, that's always been one of my major issues in Maul's appearances. Too many stories featuring him do nothing more than depict him in the same light TPM did: a quiet, committed, villainous hunter with a frightening visage and the temerity and skill to fight two Jedi alone. Not bad but not very deep either. Maul was the rule-of-cool in TPM, but as a character, he was depthless. This is where books like The Wrath of Darth Maul, Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul, or Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter become necessities. They explore the character at different angles and introduce new facets instead of retreading what we already know about him. Inasmuch as I enjoyed Ron Marz's Darth Maul mini-series, it taught me very little about his mindset, motivations, personality, and so on, and many other Maul comics and novels fail in that department as well. The books that did make the effort to add dimensions to his character are the ones I appreciate most. But that only covers Maul up to TPM. TCW took him in a new direction.

I liked TCW's approach of showing a methodical Maul who has a vision for the galaxy at large instead of just the Sith aspirant we see in stories like End Game and the like. Again, those stories are good and reflect some key elements of the character, but TCW's idea of a Maul who takes on the role of Sith Master is a good one. It almost-but-not-quite asks the question, "What would happen if Sidious was gone and Maul was the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith?" We can see how Maul would go about his business of fomenting corruption and amassing resources. It goes to show how much Maul was kept in reserve and how much potential he had that was never realized, not to mention how hollow his motivations were originally where before TCW his loyalty was primarily to his Master before all else. Ultimately, where pre-TPM EU stories like Wrath by Ryder Wyndham took a tragic look at Maul's backstory, TCW took a tragic look at Maul's losses. For all his loyalty and whole life-investment into the Sith cause, he reaped nothing from it and was tossed aside. It was just sympathetic enough, particularly in Maul's relationship with Savage, but not so sympathetic that Maul lost any of his intimidating presence (or at least, until Maul kills Satine; that scene might remove any sympathy anyone had for Maul). The dialogue and the performance by Witwer do him very well also.

Altogether, these various pre-TPM EU and TCW appearances show a character who has profound, almost unhealthy aspirations for victory and power. One of the most significant aspects of Maul's character is his discipline, and the reason he dedicates himself so much to discipline and training is for perfection. He strives for perfection, and often reprimands himself when he fails, because he considers his mission and goals to be too important to be sabotaged by careless errors. What we find from this is an arrogant, forcibly tunnel-visioned, disciplined perfectionist with nearly no capacity for regular social attachments except in rare instances, like his brother and his mother, and he struggled to express genuine empathy for them just by product of his separated and single-minded upbringing. That makes for a dangerous enemy for anyone, but as you said, with everything lost, Maul has really nothing to fear, except maybe for his own safety (on that note, I wasn't a fan of Maul begging for mercy from Sidious in TCW; I preferred the ending of their duel on Hypori and Maul's reaction then).

Where Rebels may go with this is to again underline just how much Palpatine ruined Maul's life. After taking him into an isolated existence to study Sith arts, he then replaced him and killed the only people Maul was able ever to care about. What does that leave Maul with? Nothing except a search for superior power, maybe? Maul the disciplined perfectionist would either strive for revenge on the Emperor as you suggested or, as the Rebels trailer seems to imply, look to accumulate more power in hopes of surpassing his Master and ordering the galaxy as he sees fit. That would coincide with his self-imposed (and in some ways, Sidious-childhood-imposed) demands for perfection and improvement.

EDIT: One other thought that occurs to me: Rebels could take a completely different approach to Maul that has really never been seen before. Where TCW asked the question of what Maul would do if he was no longer an instrument under Sidious' supervision, Rebels could (not necessarily will) ask the question of what Maul would do if he had no loyalties to anyone and could do whatever he wants. This is a good point to consider because Maul's whole life has been tightly corralled by Palpatine. Had Palpatine not molded Maul into a Sith with no other goals besides Sith goals, Maul would likely have been put into subjection by the Nightsisters. But with both Sidious and the Nightsisters out of the picture and Maul on his own, what would he do with himself where no one is manipulating him? I think that'd be an interesting concept to consider. I don't expect Rebels to make good on that opportunity, but maybe they'll surprise me.

Hrm. As realistic an expectation as this is because of the tone in Rebels, this is what I'm afraid of.

@silver2467: I think you hit the nail on the head in regards to Maul's character, better than I could have. One of the things I think is most prevalent about Maul is that he's sort of the epitome of unrealized potential. He clearly has a lot going for him, and perhaps in any other era of Star Wars he'd be capable of achieving his goals and doing so with impunity, but during the Clone Wars? It seems like there isn't a place for him to really flourish.

But, for me, it's also what makes him great. Despite what I've said above, he takes every resource available to him, literally and otherwise, and uses it to his advantage as to never be defeated or killed. Beat him to a pulp, replace him, cut him in half, exile him, destroy his empire and kill his loved ones; none of it will stop him from coming back stronger than before. That's what makes him truly dangerous, and actually the Maul who is forced to go through all of that may well be stronger than any Maul we could have ever seen, since it's his sufferings that make him stronger. The other edge of the sword is that he will never live to reap the benefits of his hard work and skill. In that way he's pretty tragic, but not in a way you can really feel sorry for him.

(on that note, I wasn't a fan of Maul begging for mercy from Sidious in TCW; I preferred the ending of their duel on Hypori and Maul's reaction then).

Yeah... that was one of many moments in canon I just can't help but roll my eyes at. Maul's definitely the character everyone, from the people writing him to the people watching, and the characters themselves, love to hate (aside from us, I guess). For everything he is; he was cut in half by a padawan in his big debut to the galaxy, left to rot for 12 years into comical insanity on spider legs, sent packing by pirates after Obi-Wan cut off his brother's arm in front of him, and finally humiliated by Sidious (not to mention the constant "half-the-man-you-were" jokes during TCW, lmao). It's as if the creator's of Star Wars are like "Hey, so... Maul's great and all, we like him... but we've kind of created a monster here, we need to do something to reign him in or he'll kill all of our protagonists... plus people really hate him... I know, let's lend him some minor victories and then kick him to the curb, repeatedly!". And of course 80% of the fanbase will capitalize on that in the various geek discussions and debates. Maul's actually one of the few characters who is hated so extensively that he is alienated from the era-versus-era arguments, e.g SWTOR vs PT, and is really just hated or ridiculed by everyone apart from his own fans. I take solace in the fact he's able to provoke that amount of borderline violent emotion and butthurt out of people, even if it's asinine to deal with.

@silver2467:

EDIT: One other thought that occurs to me: Rebels could take a completely different approach to Maul that has really never been seen before. Where TCW asked the question of what Maul would do if he was no longer an instrument under Sidious' supervision, Rebelscould (not necessarily will) ask the question of what Maul would do if he had no loyalties to anyone and could do whatever he wants. This is a good point to consider because Maul's whole life has been tightly corralled by Palpatine. Had Palpatine not molded Maul into a Sith with no other goals besides Sith goals, Maul would likely have been put into subjection by the Nightsisters. But with both Sidious and the Nightsisters out of the picture and Maul on his own, what would he do with himself where no one is manipulating him? I think that'd be an interesting concept to consider. I don't expect Rebels to make good on that opportunity, but maybe they'll surprise me.

TCW sort of asked the same question as your proposed one, but it asked in the context of Maul still being a devout Sith. Maybe by now (this seems to be what you meant) he's realized trying to be the top Sith in a galaxy featuring the strongest Sith ever and the Chosen One isn't going to work out for him. So, a Maul who abandons his Sith doctrine and becomes more of a rogue Dark Sider ("Old Master" as he calls himself now).

As for what he would actually do, it seems that Maul ever since being healed in TCW has been trying to assume the role of leader instead of servant or follower. He's taking his teachings and passing them on to others. This extends not only to Savage or another apprentice, but to his political and military peers (Vizsla, Almec, etc), his soldiers (from the pirates, to the spear-people from Death Sentence to the Mandalorians), and I suppose eventually his "people" (or subjects? lol) should he ever have them. It makes sense; a life of servitude where he now has nobody left to serve, he's naturally going to do the next best thing.

This is seeming to be the direction he's heading in. He's self-teaching himself in a Dark Side temple under the alias "Old Master" wherein he's trying to lure Ezra to the Dark Side. For what purpose he wants another apprentice I'm not sure, but it's interesting. Ezra's surprisingly competent and strong in the Force for his age and level of training so who knows what could happen.

If Ahsoka were to die (which would probably be some dumb, cliché "sacrifice" moment), she should die much farther down the line in Rebels - not at the end of Season 2.

Eyyyy, my boy Kanan taking down a Walker by himself.

The Fifth Brother is going to kick everyone's ass.

/thread

In power, yeah. In skill, not so much.

@wollfmyth209: Based on what?

@kj27: 5th brother can't even take on Ashoka lmao? He's pathetic. Y'know lets just say all Inquisitors equal Padawans because man this is embarrassing

I actually think that was one of TCW's successes with Maul, is that it gave him (albeit minor) sympathetic qualities, like his muffled, imperfect, and uncomfortable but still genuine brotherly care for Savage. The fact that TCW brought Maul back is the only reason we were given The Wrath of Darth Maul, the most sympathetic look at his character to date.

Interestingly, of all the movie Sith Lords, Palpatine is still the only one with no redeeming qualities or sympathetic attributes. Vader most of all and Dooku and Maul all have some human characteristics to them, even if only a few (pardon the expression in Maul's case) and can be understood despite their evil acts and natures; with the Emperor, there is plenty to enjoy about him but not sympathize with, which is precisely how he ought to be.

Palpatine is oddly similar in how factious he is with viewers and fans of the EU especially.

Pertaining to Maul, I understand where the TCW creative staff was coming from with the scene at the end of The Lawless where Maul begs, because they want to show that all these Sith Lords, for all their bluster, still suffer from an inescapable fear of death, particularly in light of their lack of potential immortality. But on the other hand, did they really have to strip Maul of that much dignity? They already had him curbstomped by Palpatine; what more do you want? (I say this as someone who really likes both Maul and the Emperor.)

Yeah, that was more what I meant. I hope they take advantage of this opportunity for character exploration.

Hm, I guess that makes sense. We'll find out soon.

@kj27:

JOBBING.

Anywho, pretty sure the GI is making a comeback.

@shootingnova:

Having trouble with the cybernetic love child of Grievous and Akbar and the Ezra/Kanan duo doesn't sound quite as impressive as what Dooku and Maul achieved.

@wollfmyth209: If he was intended to be "Grievous taken to the next level", or whatever the quote says, then Vader beating him is a remarkable accomplishment. Besides, Legends Vader's opponents were hardly swimming in feats themselves.

Vader was toying with Ezra and Kanan, unless they had another encounter that I wasn't aware of.

@wollfmyth209: Except that was stated as an improved version of Grievous by Cylo, who was a a Grievous fan, so I'd take his word seriously in that regard. And he hardly had trouble with him anyway, given that he was dominating the fight, and this was after he faced a thousand rebels. Also, it seems Vader is the most powerful Sith now.

@zapan87: I had the impression that Cylo was more hinting at the improvement of technology compared to Grievous. That doesn't really translate into combat skill.

How was he struggling with Karbin? In a few scans he even holds back his multi-saber assault with one hand, and only got struck because He was having some sort of force vision or telepathic moment hearing Ben and was taken off guard.

Cylo's word means nothing to me, unless he actually saw Grievous fight. Him just being a fan of the design doesn't make his opinion worth anything; especially since he never mentions skill, in particular. It could just be improved technology, new life support systems, new methods of fighting, etc. And canon has never been generous to Grievous to begin with. And he didn't even beat Karbin without resorting to Force power.

@shootingnovaBesides, Legends Vader's opponents were hardly swimming in feats themselves.

They're better than Kanan, Ezra and Admiral Ackbar.

@zapan87 and this was after he faced a thousand rebels.

Meh, Vader's been through worse; his stamina and durability are nigh-unrivalled.

Vader was toying with Ezra and Kanan, unless they had another encounter that I wasn't aware of.

Still looks ridiculous, tbf.

Also, it seems Vader is the most powerful Sith now.

Who? What? Where? Why? Because I'm fairly certain all current canon sources are heavily showing that Palpatine is superior.

@wollfmyth209: It's clearly PIS, lol. Kanan and Ezra have trouble with the Inquisitors, and according to the "level stats" that we were given, Vader is basically dozens of times their superior.

Karbin's as good as any foe Vader has faced in Legends.

Also, I'm curious as to what suggests Vader is more powerful than Palpatine, because by the design of the creator of both characters, Palpatine is and will always be more powerful than him. I don't see that as something Disney would casually retcon.

@shootingnova:

It's clearly PIS, lol. Kanan and Ezra have trouble with the Inquisitors, and according to the "level stats" that we were given, Vader is basically dozens of times their superior.

Filoni has always been inconsistent. But yeah, it is PIS.

Karbin's as good as any foe Vader has faced in Legends.

The only proof you have of this is a faulty statement from a guy who never even saw Grievous fight. I can just say that Bane's statement for Kas'im being the greatest lightsaber duelist ever is also true because Bane had knowledge of characters like Naga Sadow and Revan, thus Kas is canonically better than them. See, doesn't really add up? I'd be fine with an objective source stating it, but not Cylo.

Also, I'm curious as to what suggests Vader is more powerful than Palpatine, because by the design of the creator of both characters, Palpatine is and will always be more powerful than him. I don't see that as something Disney would casually retcon.

Didn't Lords of the Sith and Filoni heavily imply Sidious > Vader?

@wollfmyth209: Relating to Karbin, I actually think I'm in the same boat as DarthDuelist. Cylo was almost certainly referring to the technology, which means the physical attribute enhancers, the coordination and reflex enhancers, the brain-enhancing technology, etc, which are the bulk of Grievous' fighting ability. With respects to outright fighting skill, it's hard to say where Karbin is, but just being better than Grievous in those technological areas already marks him as a rather formidable opponent. And what exactly have any of Vader's opponents in Legends done to suggest that they're so much better than Karbin? Because otherwise, I'm not seeing how Legends Vader is so far beyond Canon Vader that the two aren't comparable at all. Vader still retains the inherent fighting ability of Anakin Skywalker, he just needs to adapt to his armor.

Lords of the Sith made it really clear that Sidious was beyond Vader, and Vader's performance in that novel was actually pretty good.

@wollfmyth209:

Who? What? Where? Why? Because I'm fairly certain all current canon sources are heavily showing that Palpatine is superior.

Here:

Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy.

-- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary

Since Vader is the only Sith Lord in his bloodline, it's obvious that the comparison would be made with people outside of his family, like Palpatine, given that he can't be the only one and the most powerful, because that would make no sense. And Lots Vader was not in his prime anyway. That doesn't mean he could win in a fightagainst Palpatine of course, because the latter has other advantages.

@zapan87: I think the quote is referring to potential, in which case Vader > Sidious, yes. Note that Vader was a Sith even before the suit, and prior to that was a Jedi. So yeah, it could just be potential.

@shootingnova:

Relating to Karbin, I actually think I'm in the same boat as DarthDuelist. Cylo was almost certainly referring to the technology, which means the physical attribute enhancers, the coordination and reflex enhancers, the brain-enhancing technology, etc, which are the bulk of Grievous' fighting ability. With respects to outright fighting skill, it's hard to say where Karbin is, but just being better than Grievous in those technological areas already marks him as a rather formidable opponent.

Honestly PROXY could also be argued as being more technologically advanced than Grievous, but wouldn't stop him from being trashed. What makes Grievous so formidable, the way I view it, is not just his cybernetics. They do play a big part, but that's mostly just so he can keep up with Force sensitives. What plays an even bigger part is his brain being more tampered with more than Karbin's allowing him to analyze the movesets of his enemies better, and his own fighting skill. Grievous has been trained by one of the best duelists in the Star Wars mythos in every single combat style, knows most combative algorithms of forms, and on top of that blends it all in an unorthodox fighting technique. Karbin has the cybernetic enhancements of Grievous, but lacks the training, refinement, and unorthodoxy that the General had. Hence, in a combative sense, I don't see Karbin on Grievous' level.

And what exactly have any of Vader's opponents in Legends done to suggest that they're so much better than Karbin?

Well for one: other than a fight with Vader that was inconclusive, we have no idea how skilled Karbin is. This is a problem as canon Vader himself isn't swimming in combat feats besides beating Kanan and Ezra, which the Inquisitors can pretty much do.

And secondly: Vader's foes in Legends ranged from Galen, to Starkiller, to An'ya Kuro, to other noteworthy Jedi. True, many of them don't have pools of feats either, but they have good accolades and decent enough accomplishments. At this point canon Vader and his enemies have the problem of being vague and not well defined in skill, rather than just not being skilled. I hope this changes in the future.

Because otherwise, I'm not seeing how Legends Vader is so far beyond Canon Vader that the two aren't comparable at all.

They are comparable, it's just Legends Vader is better by a noticeable degree so far. Being fair to Vader, however, the only Sith that in canon has dueling feats that rival his EU self(excluding Sidious) is Maul; Dooku's a jobber and his performances vary from source to source(you can just blame the TCW staff for this), and Vader doesn't have any awe-inspiring feats to draw from either.

Vader still retains the inherent fighting ability of Anakin Skywalker, he just needs to adapt to his armor.

I don't think he has quite the innate ability Anakin had due to the suffering loss of midi-chlorians.

@wollfmyth209: Sorry for the late reply, I was out all of yesterday.

Honestly PROXY could also be argued as being more technologically advanced than Grievous, but wouldn't stop him from being trashed. What makes Grievous so formidable, the way I view it, is not just his cybernetics. They do play a big part, but that's mostly just so he can keep up with Force sensitives. What plays an even bigger part is his brain being more tampered with more than Karbin's allowing him to analyze the movesets of his enemies better, and his own fighting skill. Grievous has been trained by one of the best duelists in the Star Wars mythos in every single combat style, knows most combative algorithms of forms, and on top of that blends it all in an unorthodox fighting technique. Karbin has the cybernetic enhancements of Grievous, but lacks the training, refinement, and unorthodoxy that the General had. Hence, in a combative sense, I don't see Karbin on Grievous' level.

That's Grievous' distinct advantage over Karbin - he was trained by one of the best duelists in history, but in fairness, I really doubt that Karbin could've been designed to replace Vader if he didn't undergo some serious combat training himself.

Well for one: other than a fight with Vader that was inconclusive, we have no idea how skilled Karbin is. This is a problem as canon Vader himself isn't swimming in combat feats besides beating Kanan and Ezra, which the Inquisitors can pretty much do.

And secondly: Vader's foes in Legends ranged from Galen, to Starkiller, to An'ya Kuro, to other noteworthy Jedi. True, many of them don't have pools of feats either, but they have good accolades and decent enough accomplishments. At this point canon Vader and his enemies have the problem of being vague and not well defined in skill, rather than just not being skilled. I hope this changes in the future.

Karbin has accolades as well. With the exception of Galen/Starkiller (not much of a "range" there) and Ben Kenobi (who we still rely on inference for), none of his opponents have built up feats at that point. Luke and Obi-Wan get away because we have enough to infer for them, but the likes of An'ya Kuro and Roan Shryne are nothing beyond Karbin, let alone by a significant margin. Vader in Canon is just as powerful and well-trained as in Legends, so chances are that he's not going to be much less skilled. Karbin was written to be a challenge for Vader, so that's good for him, not bad for Vader. As you said, we just lack the exposure to determine precisely how skilled they are, but this is just the start of Canon - we need to give it time before it reaches something comparable to Legends.

He lost potential and his growth rate was stunted, sure, but he would still know and have the muscle memory of his former self. The armor would hinder him, perhaps, but he'd get used to it in time.

@shootingnova:

That's Grievous' distinct advantage over Karbin - he was trained by one of the best duelists in history, but in fairness, I really doubt that Karbin could've been designed to replace Vader if he didn't undergo some serious combat training himself.

Fair point, although I doubt he would've been trained as well as Grievous. Last time I checked, Cylo isn't familiar with the 7 forms of lightsaber combat.

Karbin has accolades as well.

Which are relatively vague and come from a subjective source.

With the exception of Galen/Starkiller (not much of a "range" there) and Ben Kenobi (who we still rely on inference for), none of his opponents have built up feats at that point. Luke and Obi-Wan get away because we have enough to infer for them, but the likes of An'ya Kuro and Roan Shryne are nothing beyond Karbin, let alone by a significant margin.

Both An'ya and Roan were considered the top duelists of the Jedi Order, and Shryne in particular was compared to people like Obi-Wan and Mace, IIRC.

Vader in Canon is just as powerful and well-trained as in Legends, so chances are that he's not going to be much less skilled.

Not quite sure if he's as well trained. In Legends, Palpatine has taught a variety of Sith fighting techniques to all of his apprentices, including Vader. I don't think anything in canon points to Sidious doing that with Vader.

Karbin was written to be a challenge for Vader, so that's good for him, not bad for Vader. As you said, we just lack the exposure to determine precisely how skilled they are, but this is just the start of Canon - we need to give it time before it reaches something comparable to Legends.

I agree with that. So far canon has only built up Vader's Force abilities, but just like Legends: he doesn't abuse them when he needs to. But at least in Legends he had well defined skill, whereas in canon he leaves something to be desired.

He lost potential and his growth rate was stunted, sure, but he would still know and have the muscle memory of his former self. The armor would hinder him, perhaps, but he'd get used to it in time.

Yeah, but he wouldn't fight as effectively as when he was Anakin, simply due to losing a lot of his innate talent and needing to rebuild his style from the ground up.