Speedsters that don't job?

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Zetsu-San

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#1  Edited By Zetsu-San

I like speedsters, but it annoys the hell out of me when they randomly job for no reason. So I figured I'd make a thread where everyone lists speedster protagonists who don't job. Speed doesn't necessarily need to be their sole power, but they need to have a significant speed advantage over the vast majority of their opponents/villains. (Losing fights =/= jobbing)

Saitama
Saitama
Sakamaki Izayoi
Sakamaki Izayoi
Fox Quicksilver (I haven't seen the recent one)
Fox Quicksilver (I haven't seen the recent one)
Koro Sensei
Koro Sensei
Nice
Nice
Toy-Gun
Toy-Gun

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ad-arts

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#2  Edited By ad-arts

Most of them do because otherwise, there would be no "story" if the blitzed everytime in no time. In reality it would not be possibile to tag speedster who is significantly faster then you...

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Zetsu-San

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#3  Edited By Zetsu-San

@ad-arts said:

Most of them do because otherwise, there would be no "story" if the blitzed everytime in no time. In reality it would not be possibile to tag speedster who is significantly faster then you...

You're assuming that tension/story can only be told through fight scenes and nothing else. You are also quite wrong. There are plenty of powers that would allow one to tag speedsters without actually being as fast as the speedster. Toy-Gun for example competes with all kinds of massive terrain altering powers and often finds herself having to dance around tons of projectiles all at once while fishing for an opening to take advantage of.

You basically said that nothing in the huge list above has any story because the characters actually do well in their fights. -_-

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ad-arts

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#4  Edited By ad-arts

@zetsumoto: There are plenty of powers that would allow one to tag speedsters without actually being as fast as the speedster.

I meant h2h.

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Zetsu-San

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@ad-arts: If there's a durability advantage, one could try to wear the speedster out. That said, I stand by the fact that there are plenty of ways to create tension and tell a story without having to show the protagonist struggling in random fights that you know they are going to win.

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ad-arts

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@zetsumoto: That said, I stand by the fact that there are plenty of ways to create tension and tell a story without having to show the protagonist struggling in random fights that you know they are going to win.

There is but apparently, writes are not that creative. For example if speedster is being tagged by someone much slower, its not speedster failure, its the writer's failure.

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Zetsu-San

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@ad-arts said:

@zetsumoto: That said, I stand by the fact that there are plenty of ways to create tension and tell a story without having to show the protagonist struggling in random fights that you know they are going to win.

There is but apparently, writes are not that creative. For example if speedster is being tagged by someone much slower, its not speedster failure, its the writer's failure.

All plot failures are the writer's failure. For some characters the jobbing is so extreme that it's become pretty much a core part of their character. CW Flash cough cough.

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ad-arts

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#8  Edited By ad-arts

@zetsumoto: CW Flash cough cough

Yeah i was thinking about this one too... its so bad its not even funny. They make it more ridiculous then it needs to be.

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dngn4774

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@ad-arts said:

Most of them do because otherwise, there would be no "story" if the blitzed everytime in no time. In reality it would not be possibile to tag speedster who is significantly faster then you...

You're assuming that tension/story can only be told through fight scenes and nothing else. You are also quite wrong. There are plenty of powers that would allow one to tag speedsters without actually being as fast as the speedster. Toy-Gun for example competes with all kinds of massive terrain altering powers and often finds herself having to dance around tons of projectiles all at once while fishing for an opening to take advantage of.

You basically said that nothing in the huge list above has any story because the characters actually do well in their fights. -_-

That's a great limitation for a speedster who has a reasonable level of power, but what about OP faster than light characters like Superman or Flash. If both of those characters were as consistant as the feats we keep hearing on the battles board, they wouldn't be compelling characters.

The reason the CW Flash worked initially was because his powers were scaled down. When you rely on emotional threats to compensate for physical vulnerability, eventually it all just turns into melodrama. It's why Superman and Flash books can get really boring if the author doesn't mix up the tone enough between arcs. There has to be a balance between "soap opera" and "world ending threat."

It's also a big reason I can't stomach a lot of Shonen Jump characters. They can be the most likeable character on earth, but if they never lose or win all of their fights the same exact way, the audience is not encouraged to root for that character. For example, Goku always trains, gets beaten by somebody stronger, trains his hardest, then wins. But if all it took for Goku to win is training hard, why couldn't he have always just kept training his hardest at all times? Saitama's a special case, because he's a parody character for this archetype. Also, Koro sensei is a sympathetic antagonist, so him being OP actually gives the students development whenever they fight him evenly.

In comics and anime you can be very good at something, but when you are perfect at it, it becomes an unattractive quality. Doing well in a fight is an understatement if you can potentially murder opponents without them getting a chance to react.

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stormshadow_x

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Comic speedsters don't job either :p

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Fox QS

Smallville Bart, from what I've heard.

Ultraman from Megamind.

Most Manga and Anime characters with super speed.

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ad-arts

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#12  Edited By ad-arts

@dngn4774: They can be the most likeable character on earth, but if they never lose or win all of their fights the same exact way, the audience is not encouraged to root for that character

Well i think they should be losing, just not to threaths they really shold not...

CW Flash for example, with his reaction time, there is not a chance in the world he would be tagged by anybody who is at least 1/3 as fast as he is. Imagine real life situation. A regular guy swings at you, you get hit or not. Now slow it down by 300%, he would not be able to hit you at all, its just too slow. You can eaisly react. Now Flash, is at least hundreds times faster then other guys ( excluding ZXoom, Eobard etc ). If a swing takes 0.5 sec for us, for him its like at least couple minutes - how on Earth does he get hit, its just plain stupid.

Flash should have troubles, hard ones to solve its what makes story interesting. But just not that ( getting tagged ) because its stupid and makes no sense.

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dngn4774

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@ad-arts: Yeah, but if Zoom or other speedsters are the only one's who can touch him due to his reaction time, you've written yourself into a corner. Either he stuck fighting other speedsters or he has to look like an idiot every week and get tricked into hurting himself in some way. I think a few seconds of delay to activate the speed force or a rev up between speeds might be a good limitation for that character. That way if you catch the Flash off guard, he won't instantly avoid the threat, giving foes like the Rogues a much better chance of being credible threats.

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@dngn4774: He has plenty on villains that are especially made to counter his speed.

Captain Cold, Turtle, Mirror Master, and the like. Trickster's, if you stop running, you blow up, plan.

The writers could make it work with no problem.

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ad-arts

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#15  Edited By ad-arts

@dngn4774 said:

@ad-arts: Yeah, but if Zoom or other speedsters are the only one's who can touch him due to his reaction time, you've written yourself into a corner. Either he stuck fighting other speedsters or he has to look like an idiot every week and get tricked into hurting himself in some way. I think a few seconds of delay to activate the speed force or a rev up between speeds might be a good limitation for that character. That way if you catch the Flash off guard, he won't instantly avoid the threat, giving foes like the Rogues a much better chance of being credible threats.

I still think writers just lack the ideas to make story interesting withou him looking like an idiot. Speedster should be basically untouchable, unless other speedsters, special tech or abilities are involved. Hes a speedster for a reason. IDK use bombs, some tech or special abilities, whatever. But getting tagget by regular dudes is just plain wrong.

I think a few seconds of delay to activate the speed force or a rev up between speeds might be a good limitation for that character.

There is or a least there should be no delay. He reacted to lightning, not expecting it. He reacted to bullet already touching his neck - a bullet. But punch is i guess faster... He is fast or should be fast enough to react to punces - every time, leaving him crazy huge margin. If they cant make story logical and keep it interesting at the same time, maybe it's time to just stop making it all together...

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buttersdaman000

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You'll never find a comic book speedster that doesn't job. These characters and stories are built to go on for decades so writers really aren't concerned with making sure a character fights to the best of their abilities all of the time.

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You'll never find a comic book speedster that doesn't job. These characters and stories are built to go on for decades so writers really aren't concerned with making sure a character fights to the best of their abilities all of the time.

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HighAccuser

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I don't think thats possible.

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HeirToTheKingdom

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You'll never find a comic book speedster that doesn't job. These characters and stories are built to go on for decades so writers really aren't concerned with making sure a character fights to the best of their abilities all of the time.

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Toratorn

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Non-jobbing speedster is an oxymoron. In comics, at least.

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#21  Edited By lettsplay10

@buttersdaman000 said:

You'll never find a comic book speedster that doesn't job. These characters and stories are built to go on for decades so writers really aren't concerned with making sure a character fights to the best of their abilities all of the time.

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Zetsu-San

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@dngn4774:

When you rely on emotional threats to compensate for physical vulnerability, eventually it all just turns into melodrama.

You don't need emotional threats either. There is a LOT more to story telling than fight scenes and melo-drama. Your mentality is rather short-sighted. Not everything can be solved by punching it. That's rule number 1 when telling stories about OP characters.

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#23  Edited By dngn4774

@zetsumoto said:

@dngn4774:

When you rely on emotional threats to compensate for physical vulnerability, eventually it all just turns into melodrama.

You don't need emotional threats either. There is a LOT more to story telling than fight scenes and melo-drama. Your mentality is rather short-sighted. Not everything can be solved by punching it. That's rule number 1 when telling stories about OP characters.

Could you give an example of threats that aren't classified physical or mental, rather than just calling me short sighted?

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@buttersdaman000 said:

You'll never find a comic book speedster that doesn't job. These characters and stories are built to go on for decades so writers really aren't concerned with making sure a character fights to the best of their abilities all of the time.

Pretty much this.

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Zetsu-San

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#25  Edited By Zetsu-San

@dngn4774: No, you said "physical or emotional". Mental =/= emotional.

Are all stories classified as either action or soap opera to you?

There's comedy, mystery, horror, drama, thriller, and so on. Hamatora for example (not a good show, but the concept was there) revolved around a group of private investigators in an X-Men style setting. The protagonist pretty much blitzed the vast majority of his enemies, but that was okay because it had an entire investigative aspect to the story.

Similarly, one could tell a completely normal story going through pretty much the basic day to day live of an OP superhero. If you focus the plot on comedy, character development, and have some consistent themes; then it will work out fine.

Or you could have the show focused on mind games. Doesn't matter how OP your protagonist is if most of the story revolves around strategic mind-games.

Also, even if one were to go the "emotional" route, that does not mean "melo-drama". Melodrama is when the drama fails to advance the characters/story. Look at CW for example, drama constantly shows up, but doesn't aid in character progression; it holds it back. Oliver starts lightening up, shit happens, and he reverts to his old self. Oliver starts dating Felicity, shit happens, they break up, get back together again, and repeat.

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@dngn4774: No, you said "physical or emotional". Mental =/= emotional.

Are all stories classified as either action or soap opera to you?

Nope. Again, just pointing out if you make a character so OP that there's no chance they can lose fights, the stakes just aren't their, meaning they don't have as much power as they could have. That's fine if the writer has no interest in writing a traditional superhero story, but it is a problem if it wasn't planned as an intentional story element. In that case the writer is only telling half the stories he/she could tell if the hero had more limitations.

Similarly, one could tell a completely normal story going through pretty much the basic day to day live of an OP superhero.

That's also fine, but let's not pretend that comics are sold for the secret identities. It's also nice to see how the protagonist deals with how civilains perceive him/her, but that type of storytelling has a shelf-life.

Also, even if one were to go the "emotional" route, that does not mean "melo-drama". Melodrama is when the drama fails to advance the characters/story. Look at CW for example, drama constantly shows up, but doesn't aid in character progression; it holds it back. Oliver starts lightening up, shit happens, and he reverts to his old self. Oliver starts dating Felicity, shit happens, they break up, get back together again, and repeat.

I never said emotional storytelling is always bad. It's bad when it's relied on too much. Realistically Arrow can't tell over 100 hours with heavy emotional storytelling without it turning into melodrama, because by then we've already seen the same patterns too many times. There's only so many ways you can make Ollie's loved ones upset with him without making them seem ridiculous.

My argument isn't "punch every problem" it's to have a healthy balance of conflicts. Writing is an artform and characters are its main tool. If you have a character that is invulnerable to physical threats, you're halving the amount of drama you can put into a compelling story. Strong characters can grow in all the same mental ways an OP character can, +make the most of what they have physically. The key is versatility, as opposed to relying on the same patterns of success.

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@dngn4774:

There are characters that CW Barry can't blitz beat, though. Reverse Flash, Zoom, and the Turtle were all characters with either comparable speed or the ability to cancel out Barry's speed. Captain Cold in the comics can generate a cold field that also slows Barry down enough so he can hit him. Then you have stories like that multiple man who could make copies of himself, forcing Barry to blitz between them to try and find the original. Barry vs that teleporter could've been really interesting too if they didn't devolve it into a normal speed fist fight.

The show has credible threats to a non-jobbing Barry and has created stories in which Barry didn't need to job. Combining these stories with enemies like the Trickster or Mirror Master where the answer to the problem isn't a fist fight and you'd have a pretty good range of ways to task your hero without them randomly forgetting they have powers every other episode.

Giving Barry extremely durable enemies like Grodd and Girder was also a good idea. While neither of them should be tagging Flash they could have gone the other route and turned the danger into one where Barry is trying to protect people from an enemy he isn't strong enough to put down. Grodd's mental attacks and physical durability make for the perfect anti-speed opponent and open up new stories where Flash needs to stop mind controlled allies without hurting them while simultaneously being mentally assaulted himself.

There are ways to write credible threats to Barry. They've even done so in the show! They just get lazy some episodes and have Barry slow down to human speed so the villain of the week can punch him in the face, which breaks my suspension of disbelief and takes me out of the show for a moment.

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dngn4774

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@metaljimmor: I was talking about OP characters in general in the more recent responses. With regards to the Flash I only meant the speedster delay for things he can't see, like super fast attacks to the sides or behind him whilst he's focused elsewhere. CW Barry is much more interesting to me than faster than light battle forum Barry, but I am picking up Flash's rebirth titles and about three new Superman books to give them a fairer shot. For the record, I don't think all depictions of characters like Flash, Superman, or Martian Manhunter do a bad job with the storytelling, if that were the case these characters wouldn't have been thriving for decades. It just that speedsters jobbing is far less annoying than when a writer forces the protagonist to win out of convience for the story.

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Because writers don't realize that speed is a huge chunk of winning a lot of actions scenes and they gave it willy nilly to a lot of characters. A cool story arises from the character's limitations as much as from their strengths (arguably more). By making a character faster than light or many times faster than sound is limiting the difficulties he can encounter in an action scene by a huge chunk.

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Thad45

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Comic speedsters don't job either :p

Stop trolling.

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Thor

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Wally west.

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Pre Flashpoint Eobard Thawne.

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CW flash