Prove that Civil War Iron Man Was Weaker than Avengers Iron Man

if it's not a battle why would it be in the battle forums?

We don't really know what she did, and supporting heavier stuff in the air requires more power from his thrusters, which he wasn't prepared to use in that scene

He was bruised after the fight with Winter Soldier

I could see this suit being a bit less durable than other suits, with more of a focus being on versatility and mobility rather than pure strength, but at the same time I don't think he was ever really portrayed as being on the level of powerhouses like Thor and Hulk to begin with. There's a reason he needed a special suit to contend with Hulk instead of his normal suit

Good points here.

@uugieboogie:

He got elbowed in the face too

Better strength feats than Hulk or Thor? Thor was clearly shown to be stronger in their Avengers fight

Maybe by sheer virtue of having more feats he had some high end feats to contend with them, but overall, by AoU it seemed to be clear where Tony stood in relation to Hulk and Thor

Fighting for your life doesn't somehow make you a thousand times stronger than you are. Its clear from gif that Thor was actually exerting himself to crush Tony's armor. Yes, Bucky did a little less visible damage to Tony's armor, but is the difference really consistent with their strength difference? Its not.

He doesn't appear to be "exerting" himself he just looks angry or frustrated IMO, he did dent Tony's armor with a casual head butt. And tbf, Thor was weakened in that instance.

Sure thing.

In Avengers, Iron Man got slapped around by (and tanked) a multi-ton propeller blade going at several thousand RPMs. The suggestion that Captain America or even Bucky can replicate that sort of damage or force is ridiculous. The only conclusion left to draw is that CW Iron Man's armor was severely weaker than his Avenger's counter part.

That good enough for you?

I wouldn't say he is weaker by any means. He was trying to kill Chitauri in A1 which makes him look much more impressive than in CW, because he wasn't trying to kill anybody. He was trying to bring in his friends and contain Bucky. He had different styles to suit the issues at the time.

He was literally gritting his teeth while crushing his armor. That's a clear indication that there was nothing casual about Thor's mindset. As for Thor being weakened, he went on to match Hulk's strength a few scenes later. That's what I'm basing him strength on anyway.

Pretty sure even tonys armor is susceptible to crushing by sufficient strength. Thor and Bucky crushing it doesn't mean they are the same strength levels

There is one considerably reasonable, albeit considerably PIS explanation. Tony used the same suit in the airport battle as he did in the Bucky-Cap-Stark fight. Ant-Man was able to pull some wires before he was flushed out.

We don't know what wires those were, and the suit is probably not self-repairing. Therefore, these wires could have been crucial components (especially since they were close to the repulsors, which would be the most important parts of the armor since it's modular) which severely weakened striking power, propulsion, and/or even computational capacity.

@bjparks: how so? Stark was clearly superior in terms of strength.

The only time iron man was "overpowered", was when a more skilled and experienced fighter used leverage and positioning to pin him down for a moment. Nothing PIS about it

Personally I grit my teeth when I'm annoyed, frustrated or angry. There would be no need to exert himself to crush his armor when he could rag doll him and dent his helmet with a casual headbutt. And even if he had to exert himself it was because he was weakened. Odin sent Thor to earth using Dark Energy which weakened both of them. When Thor arrived on earth it was night and when he fought Hulk the sun was out. It was "few scenes later" but a lot of time passed and Thor had time to recover.

if the hulks strength has meaning here, he also hit black widow. If he was intent on killing the avengers, he would have killed her, and his blows against Thor would have had more environmental damage on the helicarrier.

There is so much assumption in this post. There is already a fair bit concern around the point if Thor was weakened or not. Now you are saying that he was weakened and he recovered in hours. What? There is absolutely no indication that he did. As for the casual headbutt part, I don't think there was anything casual about Thor in the fight. Tony was actually getting more hits in the fight, so it makes no sense whatsoever that Thor would be holding back even after that. Thor denting Tony's helmet with a headbutt is consistent with him crushing the armor. One does not disprove the other.

A clear PIS moment.

@rbt: my point is, that hulk and Thor never fought at any clear 100+ ton levels in their fight. Thor even struggled to break the glass cage.

So thor wasn't all that powerful in avengers, especially without his hammer. And he was still stronger than iron man(crushing his wrists)

Iron man even had a 400% power increase for most of that fight. So I don't see why those feats should downplay his CW armor

Quite a few feats were mentioned on the first page which to me either amount to Stark seemingly holding back, or Stark being overpowered. Now it is possible that your explanation is correct. However, besides the leverage, another issue is that Tony inside the suit was feeling the punches by Cap and Bucky when he should have felt greater g-forces from flying alone. If he was not feeling the punches, he was not pushing back against them as he did in the first Avengers fight with Thor as he grappled with him. Again, as to why the suit would work in one instance and fail in another, I'm not sure. Consider my explanation simply another suggestion.

The glass cage was made of some unknown material. And it was made to hold Hulk. Regardless, Thor did break it.

My point isn't that Thor was not stronger than Tony. It was that his strength barely crushed the armor and Bucky did something similar in CW. That's a blatant inconsistency. The only logical assumption is that Tony's armor in CW was weaker.

400% power won't boost his durability though. Only damage output.

Bucky did significantly less visible damage, and it was to a different part of the armor

So you think that was Thor's maximum power? Thor's very best is only enough to dent Tony's suit? Then I guess there's a huge strength gap between Thor and Hulk, considering Hulk was able to rip apart a significantly stronger suit?

@rbt: you're assuming he only started gritting his teeth when he started crushing the gauntlets.

And gritting teeth can also symbolize anger

@bjparks: not sure how the suit counteracts g forces, but I'm pretty sure jet pilots and astronauts have protection against g force in their suits, I doubt they are invulnerable to strikes

@webinyoureye11: True, but fighter pilots don't experience as high accelerations, and their crafts are designed to minimize impulse by maximizing cushioning in the space between the craft's surface and the pilot. So does Tony's suit, but that space is much smaller so it has to protect from a higher impulse, which would definitely include the impulse provided by their fists.

The Russo bros amp the hell out of cap(which isn't a bad thing) and it looks like Bucky got the treatment too. I don't think iron man got weaker the Russo force is just too much

• Even ignoring all the great feats he pulled off In the iron Man and Avengers film the would put him well above MCU Cap...And .Just using one noteworthy feat: In Avengers he somewhat stalemated a visibly angry Thor while his armor sustained very little damage(Even though he was getting knocked around a bit)...But in Civil War he almost got beaten to death by Cap..(And his armor suffered massive damage)
• Yes Logic dictates he got weaker in Civil War...Not a debate at all...Theres abosutelly no comparison in power between Thor and Cap(You might aswell compare the electrical output of ant Ant to a Spaceship)...Someone cant hold his own against Thor but then get their ass handed to them against Cap....Thats an obvious inconsistency....And even if Thor was holding back against Tony....Thor on life support>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MCU Cap.

Iron Man did not stalemate Thor, Thor was clearly stronger than him

Tony was also clearly stronger than Cap in the Civil War fight, he only lost because of both Bucky and Cap being there, and Cap knowing how to disable Tony's suit

@bjparks: well even if the effect you speak of is exponentially greater in iron mans suit, cap and Bucky are exponentially stronger than real life humans.

@arcus1:

• Damn you guys respond fast, i wasn't even finished writing my post..lol
• Anyways like i said in my completed Post...Someone who can can hold their own against Thor should not be defeated by two Super soldiers....The power difference between Thor and Cap/Bucky is vast....Even if Thor was holding back he was still obviously trying to put Iron man down and get him out of the way..And Tony kept tanking those hits and coming back....Nether Cap or Bucky have the physical output to match even 2% of what Mjolnir can do...The same Hammer the reduced a Frost Giant and Stone Monster into Rubble with one swing, created large chasms in the ground was easily tanked by Iron man in fact it recharged his suit...And The topic of discussion isnt about Weather Thor was stronger then Tony or If Tony was stronger then Bucky and Cap...Its if his armor got weaker?...And yes if you compare his fight with Thor to that of Civil War it was indeed a much much much weaker suit..You dont go from holding your own Against Thor to struggling against guys like Bucky and Cap in expect us fans to think that Armor is just as strong as the one in Avengers...Nether Bucky or Cap shouldn't even have been able to knock Tony off his feet...Caps fight against Loki is what his fight against Tony should have looked liked if Tony had been using an armor of equal caliber to the one he was wearing in Avengers...Heck Cap should have been seriously injured or slightly crippled with a limp tanking those punches from Tony(If the Amror was as strong his Mark VII from Avengers).

Thor never hit Tony with those kinds of charged hits from Mjolnir

Cap's improved since his fight with Loki in Avengers

Why should Cap have been seriously injured? Why can't he just be that durable?

Part of the problem here is that people seem to focus a large amount on Tony's fight with Thor, use that to try to say that Iron Man's not too far behind Thor, and therefore Cap and Bucky must be significantly below Tony, since they can't be close to Thor. However, that ignores a few things

1. Tony was not as strong as Thor in that fight, it was quite clear that Thor was stronger. IM managed to hang by virtue of versatility, being amped by Thor's lighting
2. Yes Tony got hit by Mjolnir, but lets not pretend that was Thor's strongest hit. It wasn't even close
3. AoU made it pretty clear that Tony's regular suit is not in the same league as guys like Thor and Hulk, hence why he needed a specially designed Hulkbuster suit to go up against Hulk. If Hulk and Thor are high tiers, Tony's a mid tier in his regular armor
4. Judging the entire effectiveness of Tony's earlier armors based almost exclusively on what's arguably his highest end showing isn't really accurate, anymore than it would be to judge based simply on low end showings

Now, I can see the logic behind thinking Tony's CW suit wasn't as strong or durable as previous suits, and in part I do think he traded raw strength for versatility and the remote control tech from IM3. But assuming his suit must be on a completely different level simply because of the Cap/Bucky fight doesn't seem like a fair conclusion to draw

• You say that, yet his armor received an recharge of over 400%...Which implies Thor was hitting Tony with a lot of force and electrical output...Tonys armor probably requires massive amounts of electricity to function and for Thor to Zap Tony with enough electrical energy to charge his suit by 400% implies Thor was definitely hitting Tony with enough force in incapacitate him(Not kill him but keep him down, And i,m sure Thor sized up Tony based on his many battles across the cosmos and assumed that, The throw he made(At the begging when Tony flew several feet and broke threw trees) was enough to knock Tony out..Which implies Tony was hit with a decently powerful hit, A hit that would have surely killed both Bucky and Cap in an instant...Yet again Thor holding back>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cap and Bucky.
• Cap has improved his fighting skills not his stregth, And even if he did i doubt it would have been enough to damage Iron Man at Avengers level...
• Because if Tony the same guy who knocked Thor off his feet multiple times(Something Cap or Bucky couldnt do ever), pushed him around, Survived a headbutt from Thor and tanked a massive maalstertom of electrical energy output from Thor..Cap Should have had his face and bones shattered by taking punches from someone with that amount of molecular density around their armored covered punches..And then you gotta factor in the amount of force and stregth Tony is able to generate with his punches becuase his own impressive Super stregth.
• Btw i,m not arguing that Cap and Bucky shouldn't have been able to do what they did in Civil War against Tony, i,m just saying dont sit here and say that The Civil War Armor wasnt a much weaker compared to the one from Avengers...Simple logic proves otherwise.

That was a lighting blast, I meant a charged hit using Mjolnir physically. Tony tanking the lighting isn't really a durability feat because apparently the lightning just gave his suit more power (because plot reasons)

Thor was able to stagger Hulk with his bare hands, something Tony wouldn't be able to do in his regular armor. Therefore, Tony shouldn't be able to stagger Thor. That's the same kind of logic you're trying to use, and yet it's clearly not valid

Thor's the same size as a regular human, knocking him around isn't as impressive as you're making it out to be

And why is it impossible for Cap to simply be strong enough to tank hits from Iron Man? Why should his bones have shattered? Remember he was brawling with Ultron in AoU, tanking hits and not having his bones shattered

Remember, Cap's well past peak human in the MCU, he's quite solidly superhuman by that universe's standards

• That is a durability feat...Because Thor was trying to incapacitate him with that electricial blast not recharge his suit...I,m sure Thor had assumed it would have either shut his armor down, severely damaged and melted the Armors metal or fried him..And both Cap and Bucky would have been scrambled eggs if hit with that same attack...So yea its definitely durability feat...Just becuase Tony survived it dosent make it illegitimate...That just proves how durable and effective Tonys armor is agiast electrical based attacks and how it acts as a sort of Supercharged battery in a sense.
• Cap was having his face beaten and bruised by Buckys meatal arm..And was visibly close to slipping into unconsciousness based on how woozy his face was looking..And i,m positive in about 5-10 hits Cap would have surely died if the punching continued....Tony whose alot stronger then Bucky should have indeed did alot more damage to Cap then Civil War showed.
• Yes i know Cap is well above human durability, which is why one or two punches from Bucky didnt instalty kill him...But to suggest that a blood lusted MCU Iron Man at his peak shouldn't severely cripple him is absurd.
• And about that fight with Ultron....Ultron never punched him, Cap was smartly blocking all of his hits with the Shield and dogering a majority of Ultrons hits even when his shield was knocked off the Truck....The most Ultron did was lightly choke him and hit Cap with a couple of blast one caused him to almost fly off the truck and the other caused him to fly into a car....Also Cap did wrestle Ultron into a bus which ill admit was pretty impressive...But its quite obovius that if Ultron wanted to seriously end the fight with Cap he could have done so very easily...It didnt look like Ultron was trying very hard with Cap, just swatting away an annoying fly.

The point is Thor's attack didn't work as intended against Tony, it absorbed the lighting instead of simply tanking damage. That kind of durability doesn't apply against Cap

Cap was lying there letting Bucky wail on him, and he wasn't nearly as bad as you're suggesting. Proof that 5-10 more hits would have killed him?

And who says Tony must hit significantly harder than Bucky can with his metal arm?

Why is it absurd to think that Cap is durable enough to tank hits from Iron Man? You keep saying it shouldn't be possible, but why?

Ultron did hit him

Some other parts of the fight that are easy to overlook

Showing that Cap brawling with an IM tier opponent is not unprecedented and was within his capabilities before AoU

Before Civil War, I mean

My reasoning is that in the first Iron Man film Tony could lift and swing cars about, but in Civil War he was overpowered by Bucky's metal arm and I don't think that Bucky is strong enough to lift cars.

Bucky knocked a car off the road with a hit from his metal arm when he killed Tony's parents and he casually snatched a motorcycle with it. It's not unreasonable to think that if that level of strength were applied to his whole body he could lift cars or more (after all, it's not like Tony's lifting feats involve just his arm strength, which is what Bucky was able to match)

@arcus1: You may have a point.

@arcus1:

• I,m glad you brought up that Gif..It clearly shows Cap is really struggling aghast Ultron...His shield and agility is whats really keeping him that fight, not his damage output...Ultron barely touched Cap, and he certainly didn't punch him in the face mutplie times like Tony did...Cap his dogging most of Ultrons attacks and trying to keep his distance...Not overpowering him like him and Bucky did aigiast Tony...Go back and watch the Civil War fight they were literally overpowering Tony, by grabbing his arms and forcefully moving his arms away....Whereas Cap was struggling heavily agiast Ultron and barely staying in the fight, acting more as an annoying pesky fly then an actual challenge, Whereas in Civil War both Cap and Bucky were fairing pretty well agiast Tony..Even though Tony was noticeably stronger then them and somewhat wining, but then they have Cap knock off Tonys mask and shut down his armor by knocking it in the chest..Something that hasnt ever happened in the films before...And screams PIS(Or proof that this infact a weaker armor) especially when you consider all the times his armor has been hit in the chest and not caused to power down...
• I get your argument, but its quite obvious that the fight suffered from some PIS, that put it in Caps favor...Bucky should have died in that fight, but of course the directors wanted to show us how Cap is an underdog and should never bet counted out...When in actuality he should have been beaten unconscious and Bucky should have been killed right on the spot after his arm got blasted off when Tony was about to finish the job..But of course the plot moves in Caps favor and Iron Mans armor becomes Caps play thing.

@lubub55: also, it took the entire body of the soldiers to over power just an arm, or head. They specifically went for the joints and weak points

Cap wasn't anywhere near as winded after his fight with Ultron as he was after the fight with Tony. Plus, logically, Cap would've been running on a lot of adrenaline against Tony, moreso than against Ultron

Yeah, together they were able to overpower Tony at points, with good leverage and such. Using proper technique and positioning, a weaker person can forcefully move a stronger person. And they had the advantage of going at him 2 on 1 many times, making it easier to press an advantage

Tony's face mask was different in this movie than it's been before, iirc. And yeah, Cap knew to target the arc reactor specifically, not just the chest. He embedded his shield in Ultron's chest, so it's not like his ability to do that kind of damage with a solid shield strike is unprecedented, and unlike other times, Cap was in a perfect position to strike the arc reactor specifically.

You have yet to provide any reason for why the idea of Cap being able to hang with Iron Man is so absurd

• I provided the Reasons why i though so in my first post when i compared it to the fight with Thor..If thats not enough for you then so be it...Ive said my peace about that and am done with making that same argument.
• Another thing...Iron Man isnt a fixed point...He changes depending on his Armor...Which is why i,m saying his Amror was proably stronger in the Avengers...What exactly are you trying to argue?..That his Armor is equal to the one in Avengers?...Because already said i dont have a problem with Cap defeating Tony in Civil War....It was done in a cheap fashion but alas it was done to serve the plot for the better...My stance is that the Mark VII Avengers suit was a stronger Armor then his Mark XLVI Civil War suit...Which makes sense, since Tony knew he was going up against Asgardians, And i,m sure he was aware of what Thor can do based on Shield footage or his own private satellite feeds...Compared to in Civil War when he knew he was going up agiast Super Soldiers and Caps team in the airport(Nobody even remotely close to Thor physically), so his armor was just good enough to fight Super Soldiers and mid level Superheroes...And based on his performance in the Airport battle and his fight Agiast Bucky and Cap it indeed served him well...Until Cap shut down his suits power an knocked his Helmet off..Kinda stupid imo...But its the MCU so its to be expected...And it was similar/somewhat of a homage to there fight in the actual Civil War comic so i didn't really mind it much.

@uugieboogie:

And there isn't assumption in your post? You're assuming Thor had to exert himself because he was gritting his teeth. If that's not an assumption then what is it? There shouldn't be any concern because it specifically said he was weakened in a CANON tie in comic. It was stated both of them would have them health affected and even when Thor finally made it to earth he was immediately KO'd (and this was happening while they were capturing Loki). After he got up he went straight towards Loki and the Quinjet. The only way to see it as he wasn't weakened is to completely disregard the canon tie in comic. And if the comic is canon we count just like we count Arrow's feats and context from his canon tie ins.

I am not the one assuming things. You said that Thor was holding back against Tony. There is literally no reason for him to hold back. He was there to capture Loki and Tony was in the way. The way he was fighting says otherwise as well. He literally tried to murder a guy he had never met(Cap). And I know about the tie in comics. I remember someone made a rather convincing argument that Thor wasn't weakened exactly. The warning from Odin was really vague. The price could have been anything. But even going with your assumption that Thor was indeed weakened, what is to say that he was not recovered by the time he woke up and went to fight Tony? You are assuming a particular time it took Thor to completely recover which fits your argument. There is nothing to say that he was not recovered by the time he was fighting Tony. Or that he was even recovered till end of the movie.

Well when he fought Kurse he beat down to the point he dazed and could barely stand and recovered enough to go on and fight Malekeith who was equipped with an Infinity Stone. In this instance he was actually hurt enough to be KO'd and it took him longer to recover. The indication comes from all his other appearances and using common sense.

This actually works for me. Kurse almost beat him to death and he recovered in minutes. Nothing to say he wasn't already at his full when he faced Tony.

Seems pretty casual to me. He didn't have to run or jump into it or anything. Nor did he use his arms to pull Tony closer to create more force (which is what Tony did when he tried to headbutt Thor).

Again, a guy doesn't go from trying to outright obliterate someone to being casual. Thor was not holding back in his fight against Tony.

And it should be noted here Thor was trying to reason with Hulk.

Which would imply that he was holding back against Hulk, not Tony.

Bucky never knocked a car out of the way. This is such a gross twisting of facts.

Bucky did significantly less visible damage, and it was to a different part of the armor

So you think that was Thor's maximum power? Thor's very best is only enough to dent Tony's suit? Then I guess there's a huge strength gap between Thor and Hulk, considering Hulk was able to rip apart a significantly stronger suit?

Bucky did less, but there was nothing signification about it. He was able to crush his armor to the point the repulsor system in the middle of his palm got destroyed.

Thor is a little weaker than Hulk going by their fight. Also, Veronica was bulkier and had more power behind it. Nothing showed that it was more durable. Heck, going by the fact that Hulk literally drove a pole through it, it might have been weaker. The thing Veronica had going for it was its regeneration and ridiculous strength.

Didn't he? I just saw a gif where he does.

I addressed this point in my last post.

We've had this argument already, it is somewhat unclear what happened, but having a feat like that is consistent with Bucky's other feats with the arm (like overpowering Cap, easily catching the motorcycle, matching Tony)

And Thor was actually crushing the solid metal part of the wrists/forearms, where there's less relatively delicate parts

So...the Hulkbuster is less durable than Tony's regular suit? Because even if you wanna say it's the same durability, that doesn't change the fact that Hulk was doing significantly more damage to the Hulkbuster than Thor did to Tony's suit

Sure, Hulk's a bit stronger than Thor, but not so significantly that Thor's maximum damage would be so much less than Hulk's maximum damage

@rbt: hey, you said it yourself, Thor tried to murder cap, another feat for cap