Noting Tropes: The Deceitful Seductress

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Delphic

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Edited By Delphic
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So are women really cold-hearted Succubi out to take advantage of all the men in the world? Probably not, but I’m sure that first controversial question will grab the attention of quite a few angry onlookers. Still I have to say that comics happen to be setting a different tone here lately in the regards of some women – or perhaps creators have always have done this in comics – and the conniving nature of certain characters that just so happen to be women. What these women are doing is that they are using their sexual wiles to use others,-- particularly the opposite gender -- to achieve some sort of ulterior motive. Granted that men do this too in a social standing, but I’m not arguing gender specifics here.

What we are looking at is the Deceitful Seductress trope. One of the earliest stories of the Deceitful Seductress is the story of Samson and Delilah from the Bible where Delilah tricked Samson into telling her the true source of his strength which turned out to be his hair. While he was asleep Delilah cut his hair and handed him over to his enemies, and when Samson tried to fight back he discovered that he had lost his strength. He was defeated, blinded, and imprisoned. Since then Delilah has been the epitome in which all other deceitful seductresses are based after.

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The Deceitful Seductress has most recently appeared in Daredevil issue eight and Nightwing issue five. In Daredevil, Black Cat has entered into an intimate relationship with Matt in order to steal a piece of evidence in his possession. While Raya Vestri in Nightwing distracts Dick Grayson -- at first by sleeping with him then by not speaking to him -- in order to assist Saiko who has been attempting to kill Dick since the beginning of the title. These two are pretty straight forward in their deception in that they are using their sexuality and to some extent a little drama in order to deceive their victims, which is the nature of the Deceitful Seductress.

In truth, this trope has been around for quite some time in comics. It appears most commonly in Batman with characters like Catwoman, Poison Ivy, and Talia Al Ghul. Catwoman first appeared in the Spring of 1940 and she has been seducing Batman ever since. Even though the seductress just so happens to be a very old cliche it sometimes can make for very entertaining stories and other times it can turn into an insulting disaster. As readers, we can only hope that the creators are competent enough to only give us the former; however, as we all have seen from the countless comics that have been produced over time the "insulting disaster" seems to be the more likely of the two stories to be produced.

In the meantime Black Cat got away with the CV logo!
In the meantime Black Cat got away with the CV logo!
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RazzaTazz

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#1  Edited By RazzaTazz

Interesting, well I hadn't read Nightwing from last week yet, but I had never made the biblical connection.  

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Delphic

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#2  Edited By Delphic

@RazzaTazz: The story of Samson and Delilah is so old and has been replicated so many times that it has become cliche. You could go back a step further and consider Eve's temptation in the garden of Eden the first case of deceitful seduction, but Eve did not directly have evil intentions, but more so acted out of ignorance. Delilah though seduced and betrayed Samson for money which inherently makes her action more self centered and thus evil. Even if one is not familiar with the story of Samson and Delilah, I'm sure everyone has heard of some story of where a woman has seduced a man for less than noble intentions.

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Hawkeye446

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#3  Edited By Hawkeye446

Oooh. Firstly, I hate that first picture. That art is just terrible. I keep seeing it advertised... Ugh..

ANYWAY, Nice blog. I agree. You mentioned Ivy at the end, and it seems now that being a seductress is half her character. Her power over men seems to be highlighted in most appearances, including, erm, Birds of Prey #3 I believe.

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Delphic

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#4  Edited By Delphic

@Hawkeye446: I felt the Black Cat standing over them sort of fit the idea I was going for, considering the blog mostly features her. Plus it was her obvious treatment of Matt Murdock that gave me the idea in the first place. Still I believe the prime seductress is poison ivy, and like you say it is part of her character to seduce men. Pretty neat though to see that she's still about to do it considering now she is more plant than human.

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Hawkeye446

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#5  Edited By Hawkeye446

@Delphic: Oh I agree, I just needed to vent my anger for that art. it is in EVERY Marvel Comic and it is annoying.

Yes, she certainly is.... Her body is like a plant now? I have read the new Birds of Prey and that seems to be the case. Any who, I love Ivy.

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Daveyo520

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#6  Edited By Daveyo520

Temptresses will get ya Delphy.

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Delphic

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#7  Edited By Delphic

@Daveyo520: Are you kidding? My mastery of charm seduced the temptress centuries ago. :)

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Daveyo520

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#8  Edited By Daveyo520

@Delphic: lol

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Delphic

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#9  Edited By Delphic

@lykopis: I forgot about Lilith to be honest, but I pretty much know her story. I honestly don't see her as a seductress though. I don't believe there was an evil motive, just as there wasn't an evil motive behind Eve's indulgence. Granted Jewish priests would probably have my head for saying that. Delilah's intentions though were purely selfish and vain, because she did it for money. Some of the early women get a bad rap in my opinion.

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Hawkeye446

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#10  Edited By Hawkeye446

@lykopis said:

It was Lilith actually - first woman, and it was because she wanted to um...not be so submissive sexually, lol. Interesting blog, will marinade and return with my comments.

:D You are being tame.

Maddie Pryor is a bit of a Tempress.. hmmm..

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Daveyo520

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#11  Edited By Daveyo520

@Hawkeye446: Sexy

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#12  Edited By Inverno

Nice blog. I recommend visiting TV Tropes if you want to make know about comic book tropes.

Just a silly question: what example of insulting disaster is about a deceitful seductress?

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FadeToBlackBolt

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#13  Edited By FadeToBlackBolt

Maybe it's been balanced out by how amazingly Misandrist Comicvine has gotten?

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FadeToBlackBolt

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#14  Edited By FadeToBlackBolt
@lykopis said:


@FadeToBlackBolt said:

Maybe it's been balanced out by how amazingly Misandrist Comicvine has gotten?

Disagree. The only thing what would be amazing is the opposite - but like you, it's only my opinion.

Do you seriously believe that CV is misogynistic? Every second thread is something about why men are evil. 
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WildValentine

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#15  Edited By WildValentine

I'm so heartbroken about the events in Nightwing's arc. I was legitimately happy he was getting a normal girl and a normal relationship, and then THAT happens.

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Delphic

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#16  Edited By Delphic

@CaioTrubat said:

Nice blog. I recommend visiting TV Tropes if you want to make know about comic book tropes.

Just a silly question: what example of insulting disaster is about a deceitful seductress?

I've been using TV Tropes for quite some time now. Thing about all tropes though is that no one character fits just one. In my opinion that is what makes some characters really compelling is that they encompass more than one. Deceitful Seductress though would include tropes like: The Vamp, Femme Fatale, or Black Widow.

As far as and example of the deceitful seductress being an insulting disaster. It's hard for me to name them all off the top of my head, but there are a few. It mostly can become an insulting disaster when the trope is completely out of character for a certain one. For example in Birds of Prey, Huntress sleeps with a security guard to get some information out of him. Now in my opinion this is completely out of character for Helena Bertinelli.

@lykopis said:

Back.

Well - the idea of a deceitful seductress has always drawn an audience, a ploy that has worked for a long time and showcased many times in pieces of literature all through other mediums. I have to say though - each person "seduced" need to take responsibility for their own behaviours - and yes, lesson learned if they were able to be taken in by a woman's physical charms. Can go both ways, can turn this into a gender thing and point out how when it's a man being seduced, there is more sympathy, whereas if its a woman, its more judged as her being a silly fool. Not always, but most often.

It can easily be turned into a gender thing, but feelings of sympathy or contempt are left up to the individual reading the literature. The literature itself can be written from a certain stance to garner sympathy for a particular character, but despite that it can often have the opposite effect. In the case of Samson. He was written in a way that made him seem sympathetic, but I personally have no sympathy for the man. He knew where his power came from, yet he indulged and took advantage of it. The loss of his power was more so the result of his own doing rather than Delilah's deeds. This though does not make Delilah innocent either though. She did not love Samson and only used him in order to grant her some extra coin. So in a sense both parties are guilty of different things. Samson pride and Delilah greed.

@lykopis said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@lykopis said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

Maybe it's been balanced out by how amazingly Misandrist Comicvine has gotten?

Disagree. The only thing what would be amazing is the opposite - but like you, it's only my opinion.

Do you seriously believe that CV is misogynistic? Every second thread is something about why men are evil.

There has been some pretty nasty threads that targeted women specifically, but all in all, I would not say CV is misogynistic. There are some ugly words bandied about in the battle forums but I chalk that up to ignorance and immaturity rather than outright misogyny. I don't see the misandry however - and if you are referring to threads discussing good and evil, its towards both genders, at least, that's how I read them to mean.

I've actually seen both sides of the forums, and honestly here lately I've seen more threads targeting women rather than men, but that could be the result of typical locations I frequent on the vine. If you erase the lines between genders though you have simply individuals and as individuals we all perceive ourselves as inherently important. Due to the labels of man and woman we come to take pride in our particular gender and due to that pride and our interactions with others sometimes we come across varying opinions that seem either misandrist or misogynistic. In my experience though, I personally think the stance of the majority of the vine itself is neutral on the matter. The funny thing about neutrality though, is that the neutral remain silent where as the sides are more outspoken, because the see themselves as offended.

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#17  Edited By TheWitchingHour

Yeah, comic books tend to use the Delilah archetype as a crutch rather than a tool in storytelling. However I think that when approached with tact and appropriate taste the Deceitful Seductress can be a healthy and useful character within a story setting.

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Hawkeye446

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#18  Edited By Hawkeye446

@Delphic said:

@lykopis said:

Back.

Well - the idea of a deceitful seductress has always drawn an audience, a ploy that has worked for a long time and showcased many times in pieces of literature all through other mediums. I have to say though - each person "seduced" need to take responsibility for their own behaviours - and yes, lesson learned if they were able to be taken in by a woman's physical charms. Can go both ways, can turn this into a gender thing and point out how when it's a man being seduced, there is more sympathy, whereas if its a woman, its more judged as her being a silly fool. Not always, but most often.

It can easily be turned into a gender thing, but feelings of sympathy or contempt are left up to the individual reading the literature. The literature itself can be written from a certain stance to garner sympathy for a particular character, but despite that it can often have the opposite effect. In the case of Samson. He was written in a way that made him seem sympathetic, but I personally have no sympathy for the man. He knew where his power came from, yet he indulged and took advantage of it. The loss of his power was more so the result of his own doing rather than Delilah's deeds. This though does not make Delilah innocent either though. She did not love Samson and only used him in order to grant her some extra coin. So in a sense both parties are guilty of different things. Samson pride and Delilah greed.

I am glad that you do see both sides of the spectrum. I think the story is a very interesting one. Samson was an ass most of the time. He treated Delilah terribly, granted his wife did just die. However, so many other characters were horrid in that story. The father treating his children like money, pawning them off for own personal reasons. Those brutish soldiers destroying the lives of many simply because they reigned from a different place, with a different religion.

To me, the story has a lot of focus on the misdeeds of the other characters. However, Delilah only ever loved Samson, and yes, her decisions were rash and selfish, but she never wanted to hurt him. And although Samson hated Delilah to begin with, her beauty and charm made him love her. These are very human things and instead of judging these characters, perhaps it is a reflection on human behaviour.

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#19  Edited By Delphic

@Hawkeye446 said:

@Delphic said:

@lykopis said:

Back.

Well - the idea of a deceitful seductress has always drawn an audience, a ploy that has worked for a long time and showcased many times in pieces of literature all through other mediums. I have to say though - each person "seduced" need to take responsibility for their own behaviours - and yes, lesson learned if they were able to be taken in by a woman's physical charms. Can go both ways, can turn this into a gender thing and point out how when it's a man being seduced, there is more sympathy, whereas if its a woman, its more judged as her being a silly fool. Not always, but most often.

It can easily be turned into a gender thing, but feelings of sympathy or contempt are left up to the individual reading the literature. The literature itself can be written from a certain stance to garner sympathy for a particular character, but despite that it can often have the opposite effect. In the case of Samson. He was written in a way that made him seem sympathetic, but I personally have no sympathy for the man. He knew where his power came from, yet he indulged and took advantage of it. The loss of his power was more so the result of his own doing rather than Delilah's deeds. This though does not make Delilah innocent either though. She did not love Samson and only used him in order to grant her some extra coin. So in a sense both parties are guilty of different things. Samson pride and Delilah greed.

I am glad that you do see both sides of the spectrum. I think the story is a very interesting one. Samson was an ass most of the time. He treated Delilah terribly, granted his wife did just die. However, so many other characters were horrid in that story. The father treating his children like money, pawning them off for own personal reasons. Those brutish soldiers destroying the lives of many simply because they reigned from a different place, with a different religion.

To me, the story has a lot of focus on the misdeeds of the other characters. However, Delilah only ever loved Samson, and yes, her decisions were rash and selfish, but she never wanted to hurt him. And although Samson hated Delilah to begin with, her beauty and charm made him love her. These are very human things and instead of judging these characters, perhaps it is a reflection on human behaviour.

This is another thing that kind of befuddles me, and that is the differences in the tales we are told. In the church we are taught that Samson is a foolish man that was deceived by Delilah's trickery. You say though that Delilah never wanted to hurt Samson and only ever loved him. That is not the same tale I was taught as a child. The story taught is that Delilah was an agent of the Philistine soldiers and was paid a small some of money to betray Samson. I'm not saying one tale is right and the other is wrong, but I'm merely remarking on the peculiar curiosity of how one tale can change between cultures. Perhaps this is another reflection of human behavior?

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Hawkeye446

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#20  Edited By Hawkeye446

@Delphic said:

@Hawkeye446 said:

@Delphic said:

@lykopis said:

Back.

Well - the idea of a deceitful seductress has always drawn an audience, a ploy that has worked for a long time and showcased many times in pieces of literature all through other mediums. I have to say though - each person "seduced" need to take responsibility for their own behaviours - and yes, lesson learned if they were able to be taken in by a woman's physical charms. Can go both ways, can turn this into a gender thing and point out how when it's a man being seduced, there is more sympathy, whereas if its a woman, its more judged as her being a silly fool. Not always, but most often.

It can easily be turned into a gender thing, but feelings of sympathy or contempt are left up to the individual reading the literature. The literature itself can be written from a certain stance to garner sympathy for a particular character, but despite that it can often have the opposite effect. In the case of Samson. He was written in a way that made him seem sympathetic, but I personally have no sympathy for the man. He knew where his power came from, yet he indulged and took advantage of it. The loss of his power was more so the result of his own doing rather than Delilah's deeds. This though does not make Delilah innocent either though. She did not love Samson and only used him in order to grant her some extra coin. So in a sense both parties are guilty of different things. Samson pride and Delilah greed.

I am glad that you do see both sides of the spectrum. I think the story is a very interesting one. Samson was an ass most of the time. He treated Delilah terribly, granted his wife did just die. However, so many other characters were horrid in that story. The father treating his children like money, pawning them off for own personal reasons. Those brutish soldiers destroying the lives of many simply because they reigned from a different place, with a different religion.

To me, the story has a lot of focus on the misdeeds of the other characters. However, Delilah only ever loved Samson, and yes, her decisions were rash and selfish, but she never wanted to hurt him. And although Samson hated Delilah to begin with, her beauty and charm made him love her. These are very human things and instead of judging these characters, perhaps it is a reflection on human behaviour.

This is another thing that kind of befuddles me, and that is the differences in the tales we are told. In the church we are taught that Samson is a foolish man that was deceived by Delilah's trickery. You say though that Delilah never wanted to hurt Samson and only ever loved him. That is not the same tale I was taught as a child. The story taught is that Delilah was an agent of the Philistine soldiers and was paid a small some of money to betray Samson. I'm not saying one tale is right and the other is wrong, but I'm merely remarking on the peculiar curiosity of how one tale can change between cultures. Perhaps this is another reflection of human behavior?

Perhaps, but I do know about her being 'hired'. But to me; she didn't care so much of the money, was she not the courtesan of the Philistine King? If she had not of asked for money, the King would have questioned what she was getting from the experience, asides from revenge. It is the way one looks at it. The same story may be told, but to you you saw a greedy woman, to me, I saw a cunning one.