Mark Waid Leaving Daredevil Is A GOOD Thing And Here's Why

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Jonny_Anonymous

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#1  Edited By Jonny_Anonymous

This is a quote from @jriddle73 who is a regular over at the Daredevil forums.

As Frank Miller discovered, there's a certain tone--call it "pulp noir"--that, overall, is by far the best fit for the Daredevil material. He didn't introduce this so mach as he recognized it as what had worked best and made it the book's status quo.

Over at manwithoutfear a few days ago, the question was raised, what is noir? Writers on film have argued that question for ages; I put together a little montage about it (or, if one prefers, a rant):

"Noir - 'A genre of crime film or fiction characterized by cynicism, fatalism, and moral ambiguity.' American Cinema's oft-quoted rundown: 'stories about life on the streets, shady characters, crooked cops, twisted love, and bad luck. About a darker side of human nature.' Dark romances about omnipresent corruption, dishonesty, sadism, nihilism, evil; full of violence, brooding, existential themes, intense psychological themes, the idea of malevolent fate, crushed idealism, the best intentions often coming to little or naught, and the only good coming at a high price. Urban expressionist fantasies full of gangsters, killers, hoods, racketeers, femme fatales, first-person narratives, crime-ridden back alleys, smoke-filled backrooms, and light filtering through venetian blinds. Tales wherein love is mostly hopeless and often expressed as obsession and aberrant sexuality."

And so on.

Now consider Daredevil from a conceptual standpoint (and here, I'm going to freely paraphrase myself a bit): From his youth, Matt Murdock has lived in a world of constant darkness. He comes from poverty, from a liberal tradition that says you give back to your community if you succeed, and from a community that badly needs him but whose problems he's ultimately helpless to solve. Consider the singleminded will it took for Matt to rise from his circumstances to become both a top-shelf lawyer and, even more extreme, a costumed vigilante who, in entirely mortal flesh, throws himself into the MU. From whence he came is branded on his soul, fused with his DNA--he never forgets. He is his father's son. His father is the guy with too much pride, the tough pug who wanted his boy to be more than just some bum, the fighter who would never quit, the good man who was destroyed by the slimy, sweaty hoods who lurk in the shadows and the business-suited big-shots behind them who profit from corrupting everything. Matt has dedicated his life to a war he can never win against an enemy he can never defeat--his cause was doomed to failure before it even started, and yet he persists. He's the man without fear who challenges those who would make the world a place of fear. The vigilante sworn to serve the law; the angel in the garb of a devil. Ironic and iconic.

That "pulp noir" tone is an obvious, even unavoidable, fit. And it had been there at DD's birth; it's there in the concept and in his origin story, from it's milieu to its wonderfully rendered Bill Everett hoods to the black irony of Matt going through so much to avenge his father only to have the murderer drop dead of a heart attack while almost in reach. The corrupt boxing milieu is a constant feature of the first era of film noir in the 1940s and '50s. If you want to see the story of Battlin' Jack Murdock 15 years before it had appeared in Daredevil, pick up a great Robert Wise noir called THE SET-UP (if you haven't seen it, watch it--you will thank me for the recommendation). Some of Stan's early scripts tap the same vein, particularly his first Owl story (in, I believe, #3--Stan's strongest DD noir excursion) and, to a somewhat lesser extent, his first Purple Man tale (can't remember the exact issue). Unfortunately, Stan quickly came to treat DD as primarily an opportunity to goof off, and this sort of tone would only turn up sporadically in the rest of his work on the book.

Gene Colan, who was a huge movie buff and noir fan, took over the book's art chores with issue #20 and immediately introduced a particularly strong noir tone into the artwork, many years before it would come to be regularly reflected in the writing. His DD was one of wild expressionistic flair, dutch angles and darkness, even while the scripts were mostly just poor man's Spider-Man stuff.

With subsequent writers they weren't always b-list Spidey tales either--the noir themes and elements recurred from time to time. Roy Thomas' Brother Brimstone (DD #65-66) was a sort of horror movie killer come to life. Steve Gerber and Bob Brown rework an old villain into the Deathstalker (DD #113), who has a wonderfully sinister image and can literally kill with a touch. Marv Wolfman, during his run, had a particularly choice idea for a tale (DD #127) in which DD ends up in an extended fight with the Torpedo (later of Rom: Spaceknight fame), and, while kicking one another's teeth in and doing the standard Spider-Man banter between themselves, they completely destroy a family's home. The horrified family matriarch blows up at them and they're shamed to a standstill. I've always thought that was a great end to a comic story, certainly one that fits with later DD. A comic growing up. It's unfortunate that Marv's follow-up--a non-follow-up, really--involved rehashing some material from "Spider-Man No More" then basically just forgetting the whole thing.

It was Frank Miller who recognized this as the ideal tone for the book and, as I said, made it the status quo. Miller was a marvel in those days and brought a great deal of depth and literacy to the table, and a much more mature approach to storytelling. Along the way, he brought in all sorts of other influences--samurai cinema, manga, Greek tragedy, etc.--but always filtered them through that same "pulp noir" lens. In the process, he made Daredevil A-list for the first time in the character's history and established the tone that would, generally speaking, be followed by DD's creators, from the excellent to the godawful, right up until Waid. It isn't a set-in-stone approach and the book would sometimes deviate from it, but never for long and it would always return. Not in mere emulation of Miller (as has sometimes been alleged since I began writing about the book again), but in recognition that this is the feel that works best for this character and his world, an important part of what separates Daredevil from his poor-man's-Spider-Man past--part of his unique voice.

Even Mark Waid has, in effect, conceded this. His effort to devolve DD back to those lighthearted, juvenile, poor-man's-Spider-Man days were a radical break with the book as it had existed for more than three decades before he'd taken it over. It eventually led him to initiate a series of even more radical changes that ripped at the conceptual fabric of the character and the book, rendering both utterly unrecognizable. His grinning, silly Matt has publicly fessed up to being Daredevil, abandoned not only Hell's Kitchen but New York itself (and nearly all of the locations and supporting cast that had filtered through the book over the years), moved to an alien town on the opposite coast, and become a wisecracking celebrity.

Call it whatever else you like, it ain't Daredevil.

And that's sort of the point.

Waid himself says the book's best creators over the years have been a murderer's row of top-shelf comic-book talent. Daredevil is a book that brings out the best in a lot of them. It has, over those years, had a lot of really high high-points, and all of them, all of its finest moments, have been deeply immersed in that "pulp noir" tone. The answer to the original question is that, theoretically, Daredevil doesn't have to be "pulp noir" in tone to be great, but it probably has to be "pulp noir" in tone to be great Daredevil.

I would like to add a few of my own reasons to this as well. First off ever since Waid took over Daredevil it actually has been selling the least any Daredevil book has sold in decades. Even the polarizing Shadowland sold better. The numbers have spiked at times because of artificials prop-ups like new number ones (there have been three) and annuals\specials but by in large for a Daredevil book Waid's run has been a poor seller.

In changing the tone and style of the comic to be more happy-go-lucky Waid is trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator. He even admitted himself that since he took over the book it has become a lot less unique. Waid's Daredevil is a pretty average superhero book that fits in along with a lot of others like Spider-Man, Hawkeye, Ms. Marvel, Mighty Avengers, Deadpool ect. But how many books does Marvel put out that are anything like that crime noir book Daredevil used to be? None. There isn't any. The closest would be Moon Knight but even it's not the same.

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Superguy1591

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This is too long to read....is he coming back to DC to write Superman?

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youknowwhattodo

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#3  Edited By youknowwhattodo

I've always viewed Waid's Daredevil in the same vein as Dan Slott's Silver Surfer in that I actually enjoy both stories for the most part, but in the long run I don't want their characterizations in those books to become the status quo for each character because at the end of the day, I don't view Matt Murdock as the happy-go-lucky type nor do I view Norrin Radd as someone who makes pop-culture references. So I'm fine with Mark Waid departing and letting someone else write Matt Murdoch because he's had a long enough run.

The saddest part of Mark Waid's Daredevil is that it was the best Nightwing story ever written. :(

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Jonny_Anonymous

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@superguy1591: I doubt it. Waid said he would never go back to DC until the current people in charge have left.

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Jonny_Anonymous

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@youknowwhattodo: Yeah Waid has been on for like 4 years now, that's almost like 30% of Daredevils comics.

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SOG7dc

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I enjoyed what I read of Waids run just as much as I did what Bendis wrote. That said, I'm not really attached to Matt. I like him as a character but he isn't one of my favorites.

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Jonny_Anonymous

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#8  Edited By Jonny_Anonymous

@sog7dc: How much of the Bendis run did you read?

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Gjgp27

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What did you expect? When it comes to Silver age reversion, Waid is almost as bad as Johns

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SOG7dc

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Chaos Prime

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Always thought Steven Grant would have been a good choice to have written DD but that probably will never happen now.

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One has to look at some of the books he's promoting on his pdf e-comics line to realize that his love of what other writers put in the dialogue blocks out bad art that destroys the potential of a comic to be good, rather than amateur. Considering how visual DD has been since Miller (and before that, the Colan issues), it's likely a good thing Waid is moving on.

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Jonny_Anonymous

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@gjgp27 said:

What did you expect? When it comes to Silver age reversion, Waid is almost as bad as Johns

I would argue he is worse.

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Lvenger

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Heh thought we'd hear a post from you on why Waid leaving Daredevil is a good thing. Is it just on here or do more people of the Internet dislike Waid's run? If nothing else, Waid unfortunately (in the eyes of critics of his run anyway) has the support of the media and reviewers in general. They consider it to be one of the best runs on DD to date and it's usually in the "Top comics of enter year" or list of comics you should be reading.

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Jonny_Anonymous

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@lvenger said:

Heh thought we'd hear a post from you on why Waid leaving Daredevil is a good thing. Is it just on here or do more people of the Internet dislike Waid's run? If nothing else, Waid unfortunately (in the eyes of critics of his run anyway) has the support of the media and reviewers in general. They consider it to be one of the best runs on DD to date and it's usually in the "Top comics of enter year" or list of comics you should be reading.

Same could be said about the Miller\Bendis\Brubaker era and it sold more.

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johnny_blaze

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Can we now bring Daredevil back to being the gritty, street level superhero he once was?

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Lvenger

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@jonny_anonymous: Yes but these reviewers say Waid's light hearted and Silver Age romp take on Daredevil is a breath of fresh air from all the dark noir stories he's had up til a few years ago. Plus Dardevil has been well promoted by Marvel.

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Transformers1024

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@the_tree: That was so dumb it gave me cancer.

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Jonny_Anonymous

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@lvenger: These reviewers are like a group of 10 to 15 people who all know each other

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frozen

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#22 frozen  Moderator

@gjgp27 said:

What did you expect? When it comes to Silver age reversion, Waid is almost as bad as Johns

I would argue he is worse.

Not true.

Read Kingdom Come. Not a Silver-Age story whatsoever. Read The Kingdom. Again, not a Silver-Age story. Read Superman: Birthright. Not a Silver-Age story. Also read JLA: Tower of Babel. Hint, it's not a Silver-Age story.

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frozen

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#24 frozen  Moderator

Waid is certainly one of the greatest DC writers, for sure.

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Jonny_Anonymous

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@frozen said:

@jonny_anonymous said:

@gjgp27 said:

What did you expect? When it comes to Silver age reversion, Waid is almost as bad as Johns

I would argue he is worse.

Not true.

Read Kingdom Come. Not a Silver-Age story whatsoever. Read The Kingdom. Again, not a Silver-Age story. Read Superman: Birthright. Not a Silver-Age story. Also read JLA: Tower of Babel. Hint, it's not a Silver-Age story.

I have read all of these things. The ENTIRE point of Kingdom Come is that the 80s\90s suck and the Silver Age is good.

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frozen

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#26  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@jonny_anonymous: Kingdom Come Superman is supposedly the future of Post-Crisis Superman, not Silver Age; as are the other old-timers. So no, not really. Anyway it was hardly a critique of the 1980s because the 1980s early-Post Crisis started out good. But the 1990's was a dark time for the comics industry.

Now, I haven't read Waid's Daredevil. I've read good reviews, but that's about it.

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Billy Batson

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@frozen said:

Waid is certainly one of the greatest DC writers, for sure.

Meh, his Marvel work is better.

BB

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frozen

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#28  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@frozen said:

Waid is certainly one of the greatest DC writers, for sure.

Meh, his Marvel work is better.

BB

No Caption Provided

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CaptainMarvel4Ever

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@jonny_anonymous said:

@superguy1591: I doubt it. Waid said he would never go back to DC until the current people in charge have left.

That's not what he said, he says that while he likes the New 52, it's just not for him.

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Jonny_Anonymous

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@frozen said:

@jonny_anonymous: Kingdom Come Superman is supposedly the future of Post-Crisis Superman, not Silver Age; as are the other old-timers. So no, not really. Anyway it was hardly a critique of the 1980s because the 1980s early-Post Crisis started out good. But the 1990's was a dark time for the comics industry.

Now, I haven't read Waid's Daredevil. I've read good reviews, but that's about it.

I don't think you understood Kingdom Come.

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frozen

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#31  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@jonny_anonymous: I understood the book just fine. It's old (moral authority, stick em in jail type) vs new (new representing the industry's characters at the time of it's release; gritty dark anti-heroes). My point however, still stands. As do my other examples.

Now Waid's Hulk run wasn't too good, and undermined the character-development seen in WWH. But is his Daredevil really that bad?

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Jonny_Anonymous

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@frozen: Waid wrote Kingdom Come as a commentary on the comic books industry. It's a literal war between the light good guys of yesteryear aka the SIlver Age against the current dark and grim heroes aka the 80's\90's.

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Billy Batson

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#34  Edited By Billy Batson

@frozen said:

@billy_batson said:

@frozen said:

Waid is certainly one of the greatest DC writers, for sure.

Meh, his Marvel work is better.

BB

No Caption Provided

His Captain America, Daredevil and Fantastic Four runs are good.

His Legion of Super-Heroes, JLA, Brave and the Bold, the Flash and Superman (partly) runs not so much.

BB

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VoloErgoMalus

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@frozen: Waid wrote Kingdom Come as a commentary on the comic books industry. It's a literal war between the light good guys of yesteryear aka the SIlver Age against the current dark and grim heroes aka the 80's\90's.

I thought that's what Frozen said.

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SOG7dc

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Jonny_Anonymous

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@darthmummy:

@jonny_anonymous said:

@frozen: Waid wrote Kingdom Come as a commentary on the comic books industry. It's a literal war between the light good guys of yesteryear aka the SIlver Age against the current dark and grim heroes aka the 80's\90's.

Isn't that what he said?

No, he said it wasn't about the Silver Age.

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Billy Batson

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#39  Edited By Billy Batson
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frozen

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#40  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@jonny_anonymous said:

@frozen: Waid wrote Kingdom Come as a commentary on the comic books industry. It's a literal war between the light good guys of yesteryear aka the SIlver Age against the current dark and grim heroes aka the 80's\90's.

Please, read my comment again. I clearly made comment that it's about the old vs new. You are categorizing the 1980s into the 1990s which is simply untrue. The early Post-Crisis stories did not revolve around gritty anti-heroes as the 1990's did; they still put emphasis on moral integrity, it changed in the 1990's --- there is a clear difference between the 1980s and the 1990s when you contrast comics. The ''older characters of yesteryear'' behave more like the Post-Crisis versions do, alebit older. Hence why we see references to Byrne's Man of Steel origin as Superman's in Kingdom Come. It's why the story was set in 2020. Waid even admitted that the new characters such as Magog, were based on those from the 1990s.

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@jonny_anonymous: See you make a lot of good points actually. I respect what you wrote up there. Kudos for putting the time and effort into it. You're right, ultimately the Noir tone fits good with Daredevil, perhaps even better than the more "happy" Waid approach.

But here is one thing you should consider...

When Daredevil was first introduced, he was indeed a vibrant character. It was until he got his red suit and Miller introduced the "gritty" elements into his story, that he found his ideal tone and place.

However, in his dark gritty adaptation, Daredevil, despite being an interesting character and having superb writers and storylines, he didn't get a lot of the hype. He was a heavily underrated character. Casual readers didn't read Daredevil, at all...

In my opinion Daredevil deserves to be one of Marvels A lister alongside Spidey, Cap, Iron Man, etc... He has everything they have and more in terms of being an interesting hero.

I noticed this, Daredevil in Waid's adaptation is much easier on the casual fans... new setting, more vibrant approach, interesting storylines, good writing for the most part.

I see it as a way to increase DD"s popularity... It could happen alongside the upcoming TV series.

Don't worry, Daredevil will eventually get back to his noir roots, just enjoy what is there today. I think a lot of people just git bored of pulp noir over time... Even Batman, Moon Knight and Punisher aren't as gritty as they were before...

Eventually, the happy -go stories will become boring and the gritty Murdock will be back..

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His first run on Legion of Superheroes.

'nuff said.

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SOG7dc

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@billy_batson:

I'm a fan and I liked it. I thought it was a great commentary on surveillance and freedom.

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@frozen: Google British Invasion comics

@jonny_anonymous: See you make a lot of good points actually. I respect what you wrote up there. Kudos for putting the time and effort into it. You're right, ultimately the Noir tone fits good with Daredevil, perhaps even better than the more "happy" Waid approach.

But here is one thing you should consider...

When Daredevil was first introduced, he was indeed a vibrant character. It was until he got his red suit and Miller introduced the "gritty" elements into his story, that he found his ideal tone and place.

However, in his dark gritty adaptation, Daredevil, despite being an interesting character and having superb writers and storylines, he didn't get a lot of the hype. He was a heavily underrated character. Casual readers didn't read Daredevil, at all...

In my opinion Daredevil deserves to be one of Marvels A lister alongside Spidey, Cap, Iron Man, etc... He has everything they have and more in terms of being an interesting hero.

I noticed this, Daredevil in Waid's adaptation is much easier on the casual fans... new setting, more vibrant approach, interesting storylines, good writing for the most part.

I see it as a way to increase DD"s popularity... It could happen alongside the upcoming TV series.

Don't worry, Daredevil will eventually get back to his noir roots, just enjoy what is there today. I think a lot of people just git bored of pulp noir over time... Even Batman, Moon Knight and Punisher aren't as gritty as they were before...

Eventually, the happy -go stories will become boring and the gritty Murdock will be back..

Not me, it was @jriddle73

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DigitalShooter9

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@frozen: Google British Invasion comics

@digitalshooter9 said:

@jonny_anonymous: See you make a lot of good points actually. I respect what you wrote up there. Kudos for putting the time and effort into it. You're right, ultimately the Noir tone fits good with Daredevil, perhaps even better than the more "happy" Waid approach.

But here is one thing you should consider...

When Daredevil was first introduced, he was indeed a vibrant character. It was until he got his red suit and Miller introduced the "gritty" elements into his story, that he found his ideal tone and place.

However, in his dark gritty adaptation, Daredevil, despite being an interesting character and having superb writers and storylines, he didn't get a lot of the hype. He was a heavily underrated character. Casual readers didn't read Daredevil, at all...

In my opinion Daredevil deserves to be one of Marvels A lister alongside Spidey, Cap, Iron Man, etc... He has everything they have and more in terms of being an interesting hero.

I noticed this, Daredevil in Waid's adaptation is much easier on the casual fans... new setting, more vibrant approach, interesting storylines, good writing for the most part.

I see it as a way to increase DD"s popularity... It could happen alongside the upcoming TV series.

Don't worry, Daredevil will eventually get back to his noir roots, just enjoy what is there today. I think a lot of people just git bored of pulp noir over time... Even Batman, Moon Knight and Punisher aren't as gritty as they were before...

Eventually, the happy -go stories will become boring and the gritty Murdock will be back..

Not me, it was @jriddle73

Well... He makes good points then...

But we both seem to agree on it so...

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Jonny_Anonymous

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@digitalshooter9: As for what you said about making Daredevil mainstream. I disagree with that being a good thing, all that happens with that is the character and stories get watered down and the creativity get's restricted. If Marvel wanted that for Daredevil then the TV show wouldn't be going for the gritty noir like they are.

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Jonny_Anonymous

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@sog7dc: Oh right yeah it almost always is. I mean sure they end up making more cash but usually at the cost of creativity and character development.