Luther Strode isn't a bullet timer

Recently I got around to reading The Strange Talent of LS, The Legend of LS and I just got finished with issue 1-3 of Legacy. After reading all of that I don't subscribe to the notion that he's a legitimate bullet timer, and here's why:

Yes, yes.... "but... but TNT, this was when he was just starting out! This means nothing!" I agree, this doesn't fully debunk Luther being a bullet timer, but this is an instance where he was tagged by bullets and it shouldn't be ignored.

The above scan isn't the only time Luther has failed to dodge bullets. In his most recent appearance (Legacy of LS #3) Luther fails to dodge pistol fire on more than one occasion.

In the first scan Strode is shot in the shoulder by a lone pistol bullet. In the second scan he's shot in the legs from a pretty great distance. The Shooter is a good shot i'll give him that but none of the shots taken are anything special, they're just on point in terms of aim. If Luther were actually fast enough to dodge bullets after they were fired wouldn't he be able to dodge these bullets?

Okay so we've gone over the instances of him failing to dodge gun fire, how about his feats of dodging gun fire? Here are a few scans that a lot of people see as bullet timing, I disagree.

Now i'm not going to lie this does look like a pretty convincing bullet timing feat, but is it? I think the reality of this panel is that the scared and untrained women here just missed. Look at the bullets on panel, none of them appear to be on a direct course for Luther and the large portion of the bullets are hitting the floor or way off headed for the other side of the wall. I suggest that it's possible they just missed and Luther then proceeded to blitz the gang member in the third panel. Normally that wouldn't be the logical conclusion to make but since I've already shown that he's been tagged by bullets on more than one occasion I think it's safe to say the image above isn't bullet timing.

Here's a feat I've seen people claim is Luther outrunning gunfire. I don't see how he's fast enough to outrun gunfire when only two issues after this he's unable to catch a van...... albeit the van is giving it all it's got in terms of speed, but it's still a van, lol. If he were fast enough to literally outrun bullets I'd say he should be able to catch a van that's hitting the gas less than 10 feet away. The image above is just another aim dodging feat, he was too quick for them to get a clean shot on. Which is impressive, but it's not bullet timing.

Oh and here's the van he was unable to catch:

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And now we get to Luther's last claim at being a bullet timer:

In this panel at the end of The Strange Talent of LS Luther states himself that he can "dance" between bullets. This doesn't prove he can actually do so after they're fired, IMO. I assume he merely means he can dance between the aim of the gunmen, but "bullets" definitely sounds cooler which is why that's what was written. His only feat of actually dodging gunfire in this volume was an aim dodging feat, and in issue #4 when he actually had the chance to "dance" between bullets he got shot multiple times in the chest.

Luther's definitely fast, i'm not saying he isn't, but he doesn't appear to be fast enough to dodge bullets after they're fired. Now that may diminish his prowess in the battle forum but bullet timing isn't everything, his other attributes have allowed him to fight and beat actual bullet timers. It looks like Justin Jordan's tweets aren't debunked by "the artwork."

Luther Strode:

@i_like_swords@dondave@soothing_sounds@god_spawn@strider92@nelomaxwell@tparks@iheartzombies92@cadencev2@zeroplus@colliderz@beaconofstrength@dygoboy@ironshinobi88@sirfizzwhizz

What are your guys opinions on this?

Interesting... that I was not tagged for this.

I disagree. Shoter has shot out a mach 3+ sniper round after it was fired at him. Luther slap multiple bullets from a revolver with his hands. Thats end thread their. Here is more speed feats in the close to sonic, to super sonic in feats.

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Strode and Jack moved so fast that human eyesight could not see them moving. This alone is over sonic in speed since that is the speed needed for a human size object at that range to move and be naked to human eyesight.

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Luther throws 6 bullets he collected at Shooter. When he throws them, he throws them fast enough to knock hit two bullets in mid air, Shooters guns out of his hands, and his knee caps. Shooter is also super fast like Strode. As seen in scans 7-8 where Shooter moves and targets a already in air Sniper Round, over mach three projectiles, with his own bullet, while not looking either. Scans 2-3 show Strode not taking a single bullet in art where the bullets fill the page. Scan 4 shows Luther using his hand while not even looking, slapping away dual gun fire from Shooter, swipping away with little effort the bullets from two guns at a time. Scan 5 shows Jack deflecting bullets off his knives not once, but twice at close range easy. Scan 6 shows Librarian able to casually turn his head sideways faster than a over mach 1 projectile inches from his head.

This alone is consistent over mach speed ability, and some feats super sonic.

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These scans we see drawn like Sonic Booms. Scan one second page has Jack pushing off the wall with three rings, lager to smaller forming with his speed gain. Scan two shows these rings a few more time when Luther pushes off the walls of the stairwell. Scan three shows again the air displacement kicking up large debris from Strode speed of his launching, and more sonic boom rings when he launches off the ceiling at the bottom of the page. Scan 4-6 show Gardener and Strode throwing punches with Sonic boom like rings where there fist are. All this is pretty clear and consistent drawing of Sonic boom rings that have no reason to be drawn there unless a sense of speed was trying to be applied. Other feats above support this speed.

Then there is the stated fact itself.

That sums it up really. Thats my argument. As for some of the arguments you posted, this can be simply stated low end for plot. Even the creator of Strode, Justin Jordan, states Luther is twice the Olympic athlete and nothing more, though the feats say that is clearly wrong. His artist paints a different picture, and Justin contradicts himself anyway. Like anything else with low end feats that are small and inconsistent with the high ends and averages, they can be dismissed as such.

Also should add @lukehero and @jashro44 as I love their input.

@sirfizzwhizz: I'll try to get back to you tomorrow, monday or tuesday.

@sirfizzwhizz: so to prove your point you recite a feat of another character and try to apply it to strode....okie then top class logic

Considering all the characters have the same power-set, and Strode proven to be fast or faster than them, yes. The logic is applicable. At least, most veteran and respected debaters will say that as well :/

Really?! Was your comment in seriousness? Your post count says you should know this by now.

@sirfizzwhizz: okie then Batman has tagged the flash so then batman is as fast as flash

Or Spider-Man got tagged by rhino which means rhino is supersonic

Your logic is unjustified as you can make anything seem the way you want it to look

TNT has just shown in this thread in 3 separate occasions where contradicts all of your views and I'll take feats from a comic book over your opinion anyway

@comicsrulebutdbzdoes2:

okie then Batman has tagged the flash so then batman is as fast as flash

Batman and Flash do not have the same power. Flash is like wise tagged by everyone and their mother.

Or Spider-Man got tagged by rhino which means rhino is supersonic

Spider Man low showing, and any Spider man fan or debater would explain this by Spider Man feats.

Again Spider Man and Rhino do not have the same powers.

Your logic is unjustified as you can make anything seem the way you want it to look

Your counters are piss poor, as your attempts to disregard Luther and crew have the same exact powers from the same source, and Luther speed wise keep up with them in life or death fights, and even blitz them. As well clear Bullet feats shown to boot.

TNT has just shown in this thread in 3 separate occasions where contradicts all of your views and I'll take feats from a comic book over your opinion anyway

He showed two low showings over the dozen, and objective opinion on the rest. You are obviously just trying to agree with him with the overwhelming evidence against his and your's low views. Duly noted though.

Interesting.

Also @floopay and @slimj87d for a quick look at the feats presented, and what they think.

@sirfizzwhizz: Your "argument" is quite clearly copy and pasted from another thread and doesn't directly counter any of my points, but:

This scan does appear to be actual bullet timing, although the artwork is a bit unclear. I guess I have to concede that he is a bullet timer, yet he isn't all that consistent. You say he's supposedly "sonic in speed' yet he can't outrun a van. He's a bullet timer yet he gets tagged by a lone bullet (It doesn't matter much who pulls the trigger in that instance. Sure the Shooter is fast on the trigger with some great reaction time but he only shot one bullet and a bullet is the same speed no matter who pulls the trigger).

@thenaughtytitan: he is consistent though. I can show scans of say Wolverine getting his face ripped off and balls blown off, yet he takes forever to heal from that, yet another comic has him regrowing his body from a nuke blast in minuets. So is he the former? Latter? Same for say Spider Man. Spider man is bullet speed, and he gets tagged all the time by Rhino, Sandman, he'll even Punisher shot him. Is he now not bullet speed?

While common sense dictates it doesn't matter who pulls the trigger, you forget characters like Punisher, Deadshot, Bullseye, Domino, ect have tag super sonic speed beings, though they should not have, and Shooter has Precog mover reading as well to help.

The point is, Luther failed to catch a van, but that is what Jordan wrote. To be fair, Luther was attacked by a small private army, and had his nerve clusters hit with paralyzingly poisons, as well fought Bender. While chasing the Van Luther tripped and fell. After the war he fought, against those odds, is it really a strike against him? It not like he is Wolverine or even Deadpool on healing.

Anyway, the feats of Luther show more sonic speed area than the common speeds of say Cap America or Daredevil.

@sirfizzwhizz: your wrong just save face and admit your wrong and your logic is broken

And reacting to a sniper bullet doesn't make you sniper bullet speed reacting to an arrow shot at 10 metres is the exact same as reacting a bullet shot from 100 metres

For a "hall of fame debater" which is clearly not given on merit your reasoning and logic is poor and you just can't accept when your wrong and you get angry and worked up

Chill out man it's all good, Luther doesn't mind he's not bullet speed neither should you

@comicsrulebutdbzdoes2: trolling at its best. "Nah uh, you suck." Classic argument :).

@sirfizzwhizz: at least that's one thing we can agree on, I'm glad you've finally able to accept defeat:)

@sirfizzwhizz

he is consistent though. I can show scans of say Wolverine getting his face ripped off and balls blown off, yet he takes forever to heal from that, yet another comic has him regrowing his body from a nuke blast in minuets. So is he the former? Latter? Same for say Spider Man. Spider man is bullet speed, and he gets tagged all the time by Rhino, Sandman, he'll even Punisher shot him. Is he now not bullet speed?

Yes other characters are inconsistent as well but it doesn't stop Luther from being inconsistent to an extent, i'm not saying that he's on par with Sabretooth when it comes to inconsistency i'm just pointing out that he is to an extent. As for him being a bullet timer I now agree as I was saying in my previous comment.

While common sense dictates it doesn't matter who pulls the trigger, you forget characters like Punisher, Deadshot, and Domino, ect have tag super sonic speed beings, though they should not have, and Shooter has Precog mover reading as well to help.

Fair enough.

The point is, Luther failed to catch a van, but that is what Jordan wrote. To be fair, Luther was attacked by a small private army, and had his nerve clusters hit with paralyzingly poisons, as well fought Bender. While chasing the Van Luther tripped and fell. After the war he fought, against those odds, is it really a strike against him? It not like he is Wolverine or even Deadpool on healing.

Solid point, he was probably still feeling the effects, as well as exhaustion from the fight he just had with Binder. Yeah it can partially be chalked up to plot as well, because in order to drag Luther off to the base to introduce Jack and have the final fight with Binder they needed to give him a reason to go (and thus Petra got captured because the plot required it).

Not particularly interested in addressing this but.. hey ho. From a skim, the scans you've posted of Luther being hit by bullets are either when he's, as you said, just starting out, or in the new scan where he's being shot at by another student of Cain, whose niche appears to be, well, shooting, as his name is "The Shooter" (haven't read the new series yet). I don't think that's particularly great evidence to kick your argument off. If someone can shoot Luther, good for them; that's their feat. It doesn't help if the shooter in question has Strode's same powerset, two of the sub-powers being unbelievable speed and accuracy.

There's also this:

Through pretty reasonable logical inference I'd say Luther is capable of this as well. He was on even terms with the Librarian at the climax of their fight whereas before he was always, quite literally a step behind him. Shortly following his fight with L the "now I can dance between bullets" narrative comes. And to quickly touch on that point:

In this panel at the end of The Strange Talent of LS Luther states himself that he can "dance" between bullets. This doesn't prove he can actually do so after they're fired, IMO. I assume he merely means he can dance between the aim of the gunmen, but "bullets" definitely sounds cooler which is why that's what was written. His only feat of actually dodging gunfire in this volume was an aim dodging feat, and in issue #4 when he actually had the chance to "dance" between bullets he got shot multiple times in the chest.

Saying that "bullets definitely sounds cooler and that's why it was written that way" isn't an argument, it's just a common sense explanation with zero backing from the source material or the writer. It's clearly authorial intent on Jordan's part, otherwise having Luther make these musings after realizing his potential from fighting the Librarian would serve absolutely no purpose, and there's no reason for Luther to lie to himself.

Also, really? At the end he was trying to - and managed to - fake his own death. That's why the SWAT team gunned him down, not because Luther necessarily couldn't dodge their bullets. He let them shoot him.

As for your argument for the women shooting at Luther:

Now i'm not going to lie this does look like a pretty convincing bullet timing feat, but is it? I think the reality of this panel is that the scared and untrained women here just missed.

..it's pretty clear cut, the room is a haze of bullets, and the ones curving in from the centre are absolutely heading towards Luther. I find you to be reaching on this point quite a lot, honestly. And also, to dodge those bullets coming in from the centre Luther would have to move pretty fast to then dodge any bullets whose path he gets in after that, because again, the room is filled with them.

Here's a feat I've seen people claim is Luther outrunning gunfire. I don't see how he's fast enough to outrun gunfire when only two issues after this he's unable to catch a van...... albeit the van is giving it all it's got in terms of speed, but it's still a van, lol. If he were fast enough to literally outrun bullets I'd say he should be able to catch a van that's hitting the gas less than 10 feet away. The image above is just another aim dodging feat, he was too quick for them to get a clean shot on. Which is impressive, but it's not bullet timing.

He doesn't have to be able to "outrun" gunfire to necessarily be a bullet timer. And yeah, I'd say that's also a bullet timing feat. The context of the feat from the page before is Luther simply dropping into the middle of a room filled with gunmen, and he then proceeds in a linear direction cutting them in half, and does so without any of them despite quite visibly firing right at him in large groups, being able to hit him.

Again, though, here's another rogue of Luther's pretty casually bullet timing, Jack the Ripper:

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I'm aware Jack was faster than Luther at this point in the book (though maybe Luther has improved again by the third series?), but this is a pretty casual showing of speed from him. He's toying with her as he bends around the path of her bullets and deflects them on his knife at close to point blank, and in the third scan he even dodges bullets he can't see coming through the door; he must have heard them being fired and then ducked. The only time he's truly exerted effort on his speed is when he's been using it successfully against Luther, but generally Luther can keep up with and react to the guy.

I'm basically saying that I would find it startling if two of Luther's main rogues who he's left bodybagged can bullet time but he can't, even if he improves in his abilities in the years to come afterwards.

In summary.. I'd say most of the arguments for Luther "not being a bullet timer" come off as fairly subjective or just inaccurate in this post, and the evidence for him being one is far stronger. I suppose it's debatable but the evidence seems to be swinging in one direction when we have panels of bullets heading straight for Luthor, authorial intent suggesting Luther can "dance around bullets" and two of his rogues making child's play of timing bullets.

@sirfizzwhizz: @thenaughtytitan: @i_like_swords:

Here is what I do not get about CV battle logic.

Why is it that being tagged by bullets actually makes you not a bullet timer? People dodge stuff all the time. Swords. Fists. Beams of energy. What have you. But they still get hit sometimes. Doesn't mean they can't dodge more, it seems to just mean the marksman is either. And yet people expect them to just dodge every bullet

If someone dodges a punch, does that mean they dodge every punch? If someone dodges a knife, does that mean they can dodge ANY knife. It's stupid in my opinion to believe that because a character can dodge a bullet, they should dodge every bullet. It isn't like spiderman or batman haven't been shot but, when theat happens it is of course widely considered PIS.

In the hands of someone good like the shooter, who can intercept supersonic projectiles with other supersonic projectiles and actually fight close up, I think the shootist has a right to tag him. A mook with a gun has no shot but someone sufficiently skilled tagging him shouldn't really come across as a surprise in my opinion.

@maverick_6: I'm not disagreeing with any of your points. Everyone is tagged by something at some point, and if it's the kind of projectile they usually take no issue with, it's usually down to circumstances or the marksman, like The Shooter, just being that good.

@thenaughtytitan: @sirfizzwhizz:I mean, I really don't want to address this. As far as being shot = you're no longer a bullet timer. Then I guess Wolverine/Sabertooth/Deadpool/X23 are a slow pokes cause they get shot all of the time.

Honestly anyone with a healing factor or bodyarmor is gonna get shot, otherwise how the heck can they show off the healing factor or bodyarmor has protection against bullets?

Here I'll use a character I really like from the comic The Sword.

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Blocking Bullets with her sword.

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Later on she gets shot.

Multiple times throughout the book she blocks bullets with her sword, and she still gets shot though.

Bullet timing is just a feat, it doesn't mean it seals the window close of you never ever getting shot ever. The reason we go hard in the paint for some characters probably not getting shot like Daredevil or Spiderman is because they have special senses and they've been up against really great marksmen like Punisher & Bullseye.

I mean she is easily blocking machine gun fire, and yet she still gets shot.

Shooting is hit and miss anyway. Blocking a bullet or dodging one simply means he are fast enough to do so. It doesn't seal away the idea that you will never get shot ever.

The Shooter is a good shot i'll give him that but none of the shots taken are anything special, they're just on point in terms of aim. If Luther were actually fast enough to dodge bullets after they were fired wouldn't he be able to dodge these bullets?

And as far as the shot not looking/seeming like something special? What is that even supposed to mean? Bullets move in a straight line(unless you have a specialized weapon or power). Shooting is reflexes and aim, the better your reflexes and aim, the more you will be able to hit moving targets.

@lukehero: I forgot you like that series lol. You should make more battle with her and post feats.

@sirfizzwhizz: I'll probably make a respect thread. Post her feats. Then make some battle threads.

I don't ever remember seeing anyone say he can dodge every bullet fired ever at him, but he is one of the most capable bullet timers in comics. There are very few characters that I actually think of as bullet timers anymore, and very few of them are comic book characters. We here on CV have given some very inaccurate interpretations of avoiding bullets as being a bullet timer. I think there are more non-bullet timers in comics then there are actual for real bullet timers, as in a bullet is fired, they don't even see it being aimed at them, they are able to locate the bullet in the air during its flight path, predict it's flight path, and move out of the way, or deflect it. There are only a few characters I think can do this consistently.

That being said, I don't think there is any argument to say Luther Strode can not do this. At the end of Strange Talents, his own thoughts read that he could dance around a barrage of gunfire from several shooters, but he wanted to quit fighting, and allowed himself to be shot.

Strode' only appeared in a handful of issues compared to most characters, and in those handful of issues, he has more consistent bullet timing feats then characters who have appeared in thousands of issues.

@thenaughtytitan: @sirfizzwhizz: Reading through the thread I can see the argument why Luther isn't a bullet timer. However Luthers enemies do have some clear cut bullet timing feats, and aside from Jack Luther is about equal to all of them.

This thread is fail/dumb. Strode for sure is a bullet timer. Hell, he's beyond it.

@i_like_swords: @sirfizzwhizz: @lukehero:

PV<K ya strode

PV<K ya spiderman

PV<K ya girl with the sword

They all get stomped by legit bullet timers like samurai jack and pokemon.

@those_eyes:

@those_eyes: Can you prove that Samurai Jack is a bullet timer by showing examples?

Well this got bumped. Lol

@lukehero: Those type of people probably just let themselves get hit because they know they have a healing factor, and bullet proof armor. It takes more effort to dodge something anyway.