lucifer and micheal multiversal?

ok i see lot of debates on comic vine debating their feats and i seem to notice opinions ranging form them being universal or multiversal depending on who is getting their point across. Now im making this thread to a weed out lowballing b conclude this debate, now we know that there are a few statements of thiese two individauls being lesser than some may claim and i do commend them for their effort but it never seems to hold enough strength, Now there are lesser charcaters such as dream who by their own rght are multiversal(created and destroyed 60 billion universes with a portion of his power another example being death of the endless being th end of all things(the multiverse)despite the impressive display the topic at hand is lucifer and these characters not being lucifer hold no accountability towards his own well being(avoiding abc logic).now most peole on comic vine seem to go on the belief to refute statment in most occassions and would shun it off if it has due to having no credibilty but for some reason this becomes non existant in debates considering lucifer so i brought up some feats in hopes to bump his status

. destroying the mansion of silence wich had countless and infinite amount of universes just with is presence

. tanking a multiverse busting blast without a scratch

.destroying the logoz which had sang creation into being

Despite this feats they always seem to be ignored and it usually goes in the direction of "well we only got one staement saying he created a multiverse all other statements call it universe"even though it shouldn't be credible due to being a statement) we seem to forget this when we're in the midst of battle) anyways people seem to be under the impression that this statemnet(him creating a universe)outweighs of all of his other statements because it was stated more than once well when you look at facts he also ha s alot other overblown staments wich would make him an invincible indestructible god which people seem to ignore being limitless will and can shape anything having a borther who has limitless power both rivalling th power of the presence when together even thought its contradicted due to the presence stating that he could unmake as easly has he made them when you look at it a lots of his good statements actually outweigh the bad and contradict his mere universal feats despite people not taking into consideration that you can't base a charcters power on just one damn feat going back to my point of both of them rivalling presence ther'es obviously a contradiction here right shouldn't the same apply to lucifer universal or multiversal feats some scans clearly state that it was universal while others state that it was multiversal don't the contradict each other like the presence statement point being their both statements we can do whatever the hell we wan't with them the have no credibility or backing to them because of this we could all place are own personal opinions on them leading to whacky and exaggerated conspiracies that in the end get us nowhere due to actaully having no backing in the end could translated into anything we deem to suit us but would still hold no credibility cause what we assumed that could happen never actually happened no matter how accurate we think it is.

Now feats are more straight forward as you can't refute what exactly happened in the comic unless your'e fanboyism overrides your'e common sensese it also gives us the authors own insight on it and his intentions too wich is>>>>>>>>all leading to a mutaul understanding and leads to more agreeing and nodding and less headache umless the feat is contradicted by another feat(not statement)so we should look at feats and not nitpick low end showing when it suits us as both sides could do that to either charcater leading to a nonsecil debate where both charcaters are downplayed and attacked causing each side to back lash leaidng to a flame war. Now im hoping that both sides can show me feats and actions to decide on the topic at hand "is lucifer morning star and micheal universe or a multiverse buster" hopefully its crediblennot out of context scenes or words and vague ideas that have been looked into way too mucha side that sounds more reasonable and intelligent would be appreciated

exuse my grammar still getting use to english

Marvel fanboys back then literally tried everything to debunk something with terminology fallacies (I mean, lol, a universe in one setting isn't the same as a universe in another setting. Marvel fanboys have no vailid counter against why Lucifer is multiversal without an major fallacy)

There are thousand reasons why Lucifer is multiversal.

Considering that Space-Time in DC creates new Multiverses constanteously, it is pretty certain that Michael and Lucifer are Multiversal because they created the mathematical possibilities for Space-Timeline functions.

Despite this feats they always seem to be ignored and it usually goes in the direction of "well we only got one staement saying he created a multiverse all other statements call it universe"

Actually, the author misused the term "multiverse" in that scene:

They are both hyperversal at least or possibly even outerversal. Multiversal would be a lowball imo.

They are both multiversal. No argument can be made

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Sarkari ResultPnr Status192.168.l.l

XD, i love how people are overbidding them.

--"I have universal on the left. Who says better!!? Do i hear multiversal?"

- "I say hyperversal"

-- "Hyperversal!!! We have hyperversal, here!! C'mon!! Outerversal is close to hyperversal!! who says outerversal!!?"

-"Me!!"

--"Outerversal for this fine gentleman!! No one says better!!? Ok Outerversal One!! Outerversal Two!!! Outerversal thre--"

-"Omni-omniversal!!!!!"

**Crowd Gasping!!!**

-- "O-omni-omniversal!!!? It's not a real concept, sir."

-"Oh sorry! I say Omniversal"

@absol123: Mike Carey uses Universe relatively, in that scan you posted, he believes a Universe encompasses everything, and in the early Sandman stories, the Universe contained many timelines.

In old schools of thought, "Universe" meant everything that exists, this includes all Timelines of Space-Time.

To him, Multiverse/Universe are describing "all of existence", and in DC, all of the existence encompasses more than just 1 space-time continuum.

This is opposite to your regular definition of a Universe as only containing 1 space-time continuum.

Further lent to this is how Heaven and Hell in DC, contain Infinite Universes and they are part of the "Universe" or "Creation" that Lucifer shaped.

This is also true in current DC cosmology, as well as in the New Sandman Universe. With the Endless all being portrayed as being beyond Universes in the DC Map, in which Lucifer is more powerful than Dream.

The way that Mike Carey used "multiverse" means a single reality.

A single reality is composed of multiple dimensions.

http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/appendixes/omnapp.htm

"A Reality is the collection of an Earth-like universe and all other realms associated with that universe. For example, in general, there is one Negative Zone, one Asgard, and one Dark Dimension associated with each Earth universe. The collection of all associated realms is a Reality. Further changes to the history of a realm will alter its reality. In most cases, this actually involves overlapping or merging one reality with another. See below for further discussion on altered realities."

they are both omniversal

yes

Lucifer and Michael in their weakest interpretation would be multiversal at least.

^This

I like how Lucifer warped Hell, which is stated to be equal to Multiversal and is beyond Multiversal based on the DC multiverse's map. Lucifer transcends Destiny of the Endless who contains the Multiverse, created/predated the concept of physics which allowed for Infinite Timelines that Dream contained, to exist in Vertigo, wields the power of the Presence who creates Multiverses and Universes VIA dreams, and is still somehow "Universal" based on terminology context misunderstanding from a Tweet.

There are tons of intellectual problems with thinking Lucifer is universe level only. Coming from all directions.

Recently in fact, the Spectre calls DC's Multiverse including the Source Wall, "Creation" and since Lucifer and Spectre are angels of the same culture and language, and given that Lucifer is not phased by Spectre's presence, then all mentions of "Creation" in Lucifer/Sandman means Multiverse.

You really do not need a brain to figure this out.

@etriel: can you post scans of Spectre telling that ?

@etriel: Yggdrasil, a.k.a world tree (A.K.A a tree which roots all existence, which also includes several multiverses) would have been destroyed if Michael died. The world tree was described as that on-panel and somehow, marvel fans make the best execuses. I literally laugh my ass off everytime marvel fanboys try to come with an execuse. It's so brain dead sometimes.

Also, there are tons of multiverse feats for Lucifer.

Spectre literally after the Rebirth Source Wall was destroyed. Calls it an affront against Creation. The Source Wall contains Infinite Universes+.

Lucifer refers to Creation as everything God/Yahweh/Presence "Created" hence Creation.

Lucifer and Spectre are both angels who came from the same place. Speak the same language. Use the same terminologies.

I have no idea how Lucifer, who is canonically superior to the Spectre, suddenly downgrades his term of "Creation" to mean 1 space-timeline. LMFAO

@yasindermann

@etriel: ok thanks

I thought they were like Low Outerversal?

Of course even at their weakest i dare say it can be argued they are omniversal

@etriel: I don't know how you went to that conclusion because nothing here is sayint that hell is universal+ size.

+ Lucifer morningstar feats takes place in the vertigo series and not in the mainstream dc universe.

Dc even replaced lucifer with this Lucifer:

Dan Didio even claimed that vertigo was not canon to DC:

https://web.archive.org/web/20080513024934/https://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Wondercon08/DCNation.html

- Is the Vertigo universe part of the 52 multiverses? Didio: "No."

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Vertigo is not canon to the mainstream dc universe.

In vertigo, it was the presence who created the universe.

In Dc, it was perpetua and her sons.

@absol123: Vertigo has always been loosely canon to DC. Events in the Sandman comics actually reference events in DC and vice versa. Odin giving Dream the universe in which the JSA takes place was only one of the them. The Triumverant in Hell is referenced in both Vertigo and DC comics and both Lucifer and Michael along with their lore have appeared in the Spectre solo series.

The GEB events were referenced in Sandman by Lucifer and they came about after the COIE, which is DC.

Even in the current Sandman universe, which is directly tied to mainstream DC via the events of the Dreaming. Lucifer (despite beings like Perpetua being a factor in DC) is still considered second to his creator and still considered the first being to “laugh in the void” and is still considered to be he who lit the stars of creation. Even in current Lucifer, he references the original Sandman series, which by default makes is canon to DC now more so than ever. You also have convergence which makes everything canon. DC has multiple origins stories but it is still accepted by most than Lucifer and Michael are the OG shapers of creation. You also have beings like Death and Dream (again, now canon since the current Sandman series which is under both Vertigo and DC print references it’s earlier events) who attest to this.

Also, it doesn’t matter if we even try to isolate Vertigo from DC and scale Lucifer and Michael to Vertigo cosmology because Vertigo itself was/is still an infinite multiverse.

The Dreaming contains universes for every dream there ever was, is, and will be. A dream vortex was going to destroy infinities of realities (yes, plural) and with the Dream stone, Doctor Destiny created infinite possibilities that manifested as infinite universes in which he could rule.

Lucifer’s own creation has at least a million universes as stated by the denizens of Hell. A fellow angel told us on panel that Lucifer’s creation has a “border that stretches into infinity”.

The mansions of Silence were composed of infinite universes and dimensions and realms and all the imperfect copies of creation, and Lucifer’s presence alone erased the entire place into the void.

From the void, DC creation was infinitely layered.

In Lucifer’s series in 2016, he referenced the presence of multiple multiverses saying quite literally “I have passed through multiverse(s)”.

Destiny’s book contains ALL of creation and we know from his own bio that he straddles the universe(s).

Dream in Overture (prequel to Nocturnes and preludes) said that it was the coming together of Mother Night and Father Time that made ALL VERSIONS of the Universe possible.

Daniel Hall, considered mainstream DC continuity to be a tiny universe implying many more and larger creations.

Death canonically has traveled to Marvel and is aware of universe beyond DC as well as all universes within DC as she claims them all.

In current Sandman, we are told that many years ago, Destruction of the Endless abdicated his role and left his position in the MULTIVERSE.

There is no way to make Lucifer and Michael universal even with trying to isolate and lowball. You just can’t. Even with current scaling.

Both Dreams are scared crapless of him and being that Daniel (who is considered weaker than Morpheus) scales beyond DC creation and could be considered omniversal. Destiny who literally holds the omniverse in his book, is inferior the the angels as shown by the events in Lucifer and Death (who again, will claim all of creation) can not outright claim him and is shown on panel, to be inferior.

No matter how you spin this, Lucifer and Michael are EASILY at BASE LOWBALL level, multiversal. Including feats, scaling, and functions, they scale so far beyond beings, who themselves scale so far beyond multiversal, that limiting them to any “versal” level at all becomes null. They just bypass the concept entirely.

multiversal (in DC,im talking about the DC structural term and not the VSBW tier because a Multiverse in DC is beyond boundless in terms of powerscaling) is is absolute fodder to the likes of Lucifer and Micheal ,they are omniversal by feats,statements and lore. The haters use terminology fallacies to try to debunk them by acting like every universes in fiction are the same which is completly retarded and purposely avoid context, because the word universe has different definitions, a universe a finite sized space-time continuum or in Lucifer's case , a Universe is everything that exists.