2) Bahhhhhhhhhhhh, Ill go with Kobe. In their prime he had a filthy 1st step, one of the best jumpers in the game, and was an all world defender. Not easy though.
Their from such different eras its hard to compare..Both were widely exceptional for their eras and unquestionably all time great players.
Probably Kobe, he was taller,longer and much faster and way more agile And his killer instinct was godly...Plus Kobe had the benefit of playing in an era with infinitely better developed athleticism and way more advanced sport science and nutrition from 20-40 years into the future compared Oscars era of 60s and 70s..
INB4 "none of Oscar Robertson's accomplishments were impressive because the competition was weaker back then and everyone was a weak, skinny white guy"
2. It could prob go either way. If Kobe is feeling his jumper he prob wins. Otherwise Oscar prob wins. I think Oscar was the more physical player though and would be able to back Kobe down to some degree and out rebound him.
@kgb725: He was bigger overall. Kobe is a little under 6-5. Basically the same height as Oscar except Oscar was thicker and stronger. We can argue who is bigger till the cows come home but I completely stand by Oscar being a stronger and more physical player.
I think Kobe Bryant was superior to Oscar Robertson... Yes, Big O had superior seasons than Kobe statistically like the year he averaged a Triple Double while averaging 30 PPG... but Kobe has a better overall offensive set. Kobe can shoot it from the perimeter better and seemed a lot quicker when slashing to the basket. I know there is not a whole lot of footage for the Big O back in the day and he played in a different era but the stuff I have seen from him shows he did not seem quite as fast or as skilled on the offensive end as Black Mamba.
@king_saturn: There's more to basketball than just quickness and shooting though. I mean that's fine if you think Kobe was better but I think most bb experts today mostly agree Oscar was better despite Kobe winning a lot more rings. Granted this has nothing to do with the op either since its about who would win 1 on 1. Kobe was not a good teammate and overrated as a defender imo.
@king_saturn: There's more to basketball than just quickness and shooting though. I mean that's fine if you think Kobe was better but I think most bb experts today mostly agree Oscar was better despite Kobe winning a lot more rings. Granted this has nothing to do with the op either since its about who would win 1 on 1. Kobe was not a good teammate and overrated as a defender imo.
On what grounds do these Basketball Experts say Oscar is better than Kobe though ? Because he averaged a Triple Double ? I even brought up the fact that Oscar never really looked that impressive in comparison to Kobe in actual Basketball Footage that we have of the Big O. Nothing Oscar did on the court really looked more impressive than what Kobe could do. He was not a better Defender... he was not more Athletic... he was not more Clutch than Kobe. I mean what is it that these so called Basketball Experts point at that says Oscar was better than Kobe ? Oscar was a better teammate ? What good is being a better teammate if you can't help get your teams to the Finals ? I would rather play with someone who is vicious and a winner than a friendly loser.
@king_saturn: I think it has to do with what he brought to the court overall. Scoring, passing, rebounding, defense and leadership. Kobe was a poor teammate for most of his career which does count against him. He did have a penchant for being a very selfish kind of player on the court and did cause a lot of division in his locker room. All of those things added together are most likely why a lot of experts go with Oscar. I'm not so sure you could say Kobe had a better shot or was more athletic either. Kobe's shot was very erratic and even when he didn't have it going he would still often shoot it like 25-30 times.
@king_saturn: I think it has to do with what he brought to the court overall. Scoring, passing, rebounding, defense and leadership. Kobe was a poor teammate for most of his career which does count against him. He did have a penchant for being a very selfish kind of player on the court and did cause a lot of division in his locker room. All of those things added together are most likely why a lot of experts go with Oscar. I'm not so sure you could say Kobe had a better shot or was more athletic either. Kobe's shot was very erratic and even when he didn't have it going he would still often shoot it like 25-30 times.
Oscar has better overall numbers because he was a Point Guard who got to dominate the ball in an Era where you had more total possessions a game. Also, if you look at the amount of Minutes Per Game that Oscar played... it's no wonder why he could put up numbers like that as well. I mean if Kobe plays 42 - 45 Minutes Per Game a season... his numbers would be Higher as Well. So what Kobe was Selfish... Michael Jordan was not Selfish ? Is not Michael Jordan considered by many the Greatest Basketball Player to Ever Live ? Again, what good is it that Kobe was not the Ideal teammate if Oscar Robertson was not getting his teams to Finals appearances as a good leader ? Yes, Kobe is a better shooter... if you look at footage of the type of shots Oscar would take he was very limited... he did not have the range of a Kobe Bryant even though Oscar shot at a higher percentage. Kobe was not more athletic than Oscar ? You gotta watch some Oscar Footage man... he does not have the quickness or even the hops of a Kobe. Kobe's a Volume Shooter though and sometimes Volume Shooter have off nights... You think Michael Jordan always shot 50 percent from the Field every game ?
@king_saturn: dude, I didn't even being up his numbers and I'm fully aware of things like stat inflation and everything else between different eras. You sound like a Kobe fan who just has a hard time understanding some of his major flaws most people see in him as a player. I have watched Oscar footage as well and I think people simply see what they want to see and especially with regards to players from former eras. Guys back then were generally much better conditioned also because the tempo of the game was faster and they would still play 45+ minutes per game. Most top players today only play 35-37mpg. Kobe did have a very selfish, self entitled mindset for most of his career which is why the Phil tried to get him traded twice before he left in 2004. Doesn't that say a lot about a player when the goat coach tells his team's gm that either this guy goes or I go? I think it does. I watched Kobe play from the beginning of his career until the end. He just had a very me first kind of attitude from the beginning that often would hamper his own teams. His teammates generally hated him also. He was lucky to have Phil around to smooth things between him and the rest of his team and to play on teams that had great rebounding.
@king_saturn: dude, I didn't even being up his numbers and I'm fully aware of things like stat inflation and everything else between different eras. You sound like a Kobe fan who just has a hard time understanding some of his major flaws most people see in him as a player. I have watched Oscar footage as well and I think people simply see what they want to see and especially with regards to players from former eras. Guys back then were generally much better conditioned also because the tempo of the game was faster and they would still play 45+ minutes per game. Most top players today only play 35-37mpg. Kobe did have a very selfish, self entitled mindset for most of his career which is why the Phil tried to get him traded twice before he left in 2004. Doesn't that say a lot about a player when the goat coach tells his team's gm that either this guy goes or I go? I think it does. I watched Kobe play from the beginning of his career until the end. He just had a very me first kind of attitude from the beginning that often would hamper his own teams. His teammates generally hated him also. He was lucky to have Phil around to smooth things between him and the rest of his team and to play on teams that had great rebounding.
You said specifically that people would say Oscar Robertson was better because of his Scoring, Rebounding, Passing and Defense. These things are shown through Stats. No, I am a Jordan Fan who is showing you that Despite Kobe's Flaws he is still better than Oscar Robertson. I even gave you the perfect analogy as Kobe is similar to Jordan as a Selfish Player yet Jordan is often considered the GOAT. Heh, I see what I want. That's funny considering there isnt much to see of Oscar Robertson in actual game footage. Well lets not act like Kobe didn't have a few seasons where he averaged over 40 Minutes Per Game... he could do it in his Prime as well. I have told you this many times now... despite Kobe's selfish nature he is still better than Oscar Robertson. Michael Jordan was a selfish player as well. Besides, what good is that position anyways if Oscar Robertson is not a Clutch Player that leads his teams to NBA Finals Appearances ? Yeah and I am sure everyone loved Michael Jordan as a Teammate. I have heard stories about Oscar Robertson not being the best Teammate either. So your whole Kobe angle maybe shot to pieces here if that is true. Seriously though why is Kobe not being an ideal teammate your stronghold for him being inferior to Oscar ? I mean that seems like a weak argument to me as it's not directly pertaining to their abilities as Basketball Players.
@king_saturn: I don't think you showed me any such thing(regarding Kobe being better than Oscar). We could also use metrics which are normalized to both the era and based on a per minute played basis which show the big O as superior to Kobe. ws/48 and per both do this. Let's take a look:
career ws/48
Kobe .170
Oscar .207
career per
Kobe 22.9
Oscar 23.2
Is it something debatable as to which is better? Of course. Even espn's own ordering of atg players(which I will admit is not some infallible ranking and had some terrible choices) but which generally favored players from the last 20-30 years over players from before then still put Oscar at 11 and Kobe at 12. So you can disagree with me all you want but I and many others will always believe that Oscar>Kobe. Its not something for anyone to be upset about or make a big deal over. Its simply a matter of a difference of opinion which is based on a number of different factors.
@king_saturn: I don't think you showed me any such thing(regarding Kobe being better than Oscar). We could also use metrics which are normalized to both the era and based on a per minute played basis which show the big O as superior to Kobe. ws/48 and per both do this. Let's take a look:
career ws/48
Kobe .170
Oscar .207
career per
Kobe 22.9
Oscar 23.2
Is it something debatable as to which is better? Of course. Even espn's own ordering of atg players(which I will admit is not some infallible ranking and had some terrible choices) but which generally favored players from the last 20-30 years over players from before then still put Oscar at 11 and Kobe at 12. So you can disagree with me all you want but I and many others will always believe that Oscar>Kobe. Its not something for anyone to be upset about or make a big deal over. Its simply a matter of a difference of opinion which is based on a number of different factors.
The footage shows who is better. Look up Kobe Bryant and Oscar Robertson on YouTube for yourself. Kobe has the quickness and the scoring range over Oscar, I think you even conceded that early on. Big O has never look that elite in scoring or even on defense as Black Mamba. I could care less about the Metrics because Oscar will have the advantage in PER because of the Rebounds and Assists. Yeah, and half of the people who say Oscar is better never really watched him play. They quote the same stuff about how he averaged a Triple Double... they talk about his overall skill set with Scoring, Rebounds, Passing yet when you see it on tape... it's not really that impressive tbh.
Kobe vs T-Mac in 2002
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Oscar vs the Celtics in 1966
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Now this is just a small sample... but considering both are in their primes in each video. I still see Kobe having the advantages I spoke of from the video comparisons with the quickness and overall offensive skill set.
@king_saturn: Do you really think all the nba experts espn had voting in the rankings they did last year never saw Oscar play? Plenty of people have seen both play and still believe Oscar was better. You don't need to justify your opinion to me with videos.
@king_saturn: Do you really think all the nba experts espn had voting in the rankings they did last year never saw Oscar play? Plenty of people have seen both play and still believe Oscar was better. You don't need to justify your opinion to me with videos.
I did not say all of them did not see Oscar play... I said half and I am willing to stand by that on the basis of several NBA experts only use the season that Oscar averaged a Triple Double to justify his greatness and standing among the all time legends. Now on it's own averaging a Triple Double is obviously Impressive but how much is it really valued if Oscar's numbers are padded based on that Era having a lot more possessions in a game ? How impressive are Oscar's stats considering he played so many minutes a game in comparison to more modern players we consider great ? Also, why is it we never really hear of Oscar's ability in the clutch to perform ? How good was Oscar in the Playoffs when it counted ? We know Kobe has shown up in the Finals and been there several times... Yeah, Kobe played on better teams but why is it that so often when we think of Oscar or someone brings up Oscar Robertson the only thing they say is he averaged a Triple Double for a season and seemingly nothing else ?
@king_saturn: I don't think those are the sort of experts who were voting on that list. Just stop pls, no need to try and justify to me why you put Kobe ahead of Oscar in your mind. I already showed you two metrics which take pace and minutes played out of the equation and favored Oscar. Kobe's overall playoff record is kind of back and forth tbh. He has some good showings, some pretty good ones and a few terrible ones. Suffice to say though I've been following the nba pretty closely for over 25 years so I could sit here and literally go through these things with a fine comb when it comes to Kobe but I am content to just say I rank Oscar higher than Kobe and leave it at that. I also brought up the fact that Phil literally quit coaching the Lakers because Mitch wouldn't trade Kobe because of all the bs that went along with being his coach. I don't recall any top player who ever had that kind of affect on his coaches and teammates that Kobe did or who would literally throw his teammates under the bus the way Kobe would in post game interviews. This is also reflected in how he would play the game. He had a very stubborn selfish streak.
@king_saturn: I don't think those are the sort of experts who were voting on that list. Just stop pls, no need to try and justify to me why you put Kobe ahead of Oscar in your mind. I already showed you two metrics which take pace and minutes played out of the equation and favored Oscar. Kobe's overall playoff record is kind of back and forth tbh. He has some good showings, some pretty good ones and a few terrible ones. Suffice to say though I've been following the nba pretty closely for over 25 years so I could sit here and literally go through these things with a fine comb when it comes to Kobe but I am content to just say I rank Oscar higher than Kobe and leave it at that. I also brought up the fact that Phil literally quit coaching the Lakers because Mitch wouldn't trade Kobe because of all the bs that went along with being his coach. I don't recall any top player who ever had that kind of affect on his coaches and teammates that Kobe did or who would literally throw his teammates under the bus the way Kobe would in post game interviews. This is also reflected in how he would play the game. He had a very stubborn selfish streak.
How do we know though ? You hardly ever hear these NBA experts mention specific moments of Oscar Robertson's career. Well the Win Share metrics is a bad indicator of who is better as players like David Robinson, Neil Johnston, Charles Barkley and James Harden have Higher Win Share Per 48 Averages than both Oscar and Kobe. I don't think any of those players are better than the ones we are talking about here. The PER is not a good measure either as Oscar's stats overall was inflated during his era because of the amount of touches per game which you admitted earlier. Oh, so because Kobe had some low showings in the Playoffs he is lessor than Oscar ? Like Oscar Robertson was just on fire in the Playoffs right ? I guess that would explain why Oscar's scoring average drops to 22 PPG in the Playoffs compared to his 25 PPG average in the Regular Season. Kobe's averages in the Regular Season and Playoffs are about the same around 25 PPG. Yes, Kobe had flaws, I already admitted that. You act as if Oscar Robertson was some Saint when it come to playing in the NBA though. Like I said, I would rather play with a Winner who is Selfish than just someone who is Great to be around with but does not Win many Championships.
@king_saturn: ws/48 isn't an ultimate measure of a player but its one thing that could be used. I am not saying that it by itself proves anything. I never said anything about Oscar being any kind of saint either though a lot of criticism of him has come after he retired. Kareem had absolutely nothing bad to say about him as a teammate. As I already said, if you want to say Kobe was better than Oscar that is fine. With regard to playoffs ppg, Oscar's dropped off a lot due to most of the playoff games he played in coming later in his career in Milwaukee when he made both of his finals appearances and had young Kareem to carry the scoring load and some other good scorers. Kobe also had an extra round of playoff games against weaker teams for most of his career. per isn't inflated either since it is rated against what is considered average for the league in the given season which includes pace, rebounding and scoring. This is why Wilt Chamberlain's best seasons when he avged 50/25 aren't rated much higher than some of Michael Jordan's best seasons. They are all rated mostly between 30 and 31.
@king_saturn: ws/48 isn't an ultimate measure of a player but its one thing that could be used. I am not saying that it by itself proves anything. I never said anything about Oscar being any kind of saint either though a lot of criticism of him has come after he retired. Kareem had absolutely nothing bad to say about him as a teammate. As I already said, if you want to say Kobe was better than Oscar that is fine. With regard to playoffs ppg, Oscar's dropped off a lot due to most of the playoff games he played in coming later in his career in Milwaukee when he made both of his finals appearances. Kobe also had an extra round of playoff games against weaker teams for most of his career. per isn't inflated either since it is rated against what is considered average for the league in the given season which includes pace, rebounding and scoring. This is why Wilt Chamberlain's best seasons when he avged 50/25 aren't rated much higher than some of Michael Jordan's best seasons. They are all rated mostly between 30 and 31.
I don't see how the Win Shares could be used if Neil Johnston and James Harden are rated ahead of Oscar and Kobe... that should be an Immediate Red Flag. Okay, but his Scoring Dropped Off Significantly Not Just A Little... This is not like from 30 PPG to 22 PPG... it's more like 30 PPG to 17 - 18 PPG in the Playoffs, and for someone who has the Most Dominant Young Force on his Side in Kareem and supposed to be an Elite Player... you would think he could still crack at least 20 -22 PPG in the Playoffs even at 30 Yrs Old. Even If I Accepted Your PER Argument It's Not Really A Strong Case For Oscar Being Better Than Kobe As 22.9 and 23.2 Are Essentially 23.
@king_saturn: Two things. 1. Neil Johnston was like the first star in the nba(not to be considered some bad player just because he isn't well known and from long ago) and he only played like 6 seasons so its really just his prime years that are being considered. 2. Harden is also in his peak so we haven't seen the down years that will begin to accounted for when he hits 30 and beyond like Kobe and Oscar played through. I'm not trying to change your mind on this either. I am simply giving some reasons on why I consider Oscar to be equal to or better than Kobe as a bb player. Its a lot of the intangible stuff that would make me put him ahead of Kobe. Another thing to note about Kobe is that in his 20 years in the league he only led his own team in win shares like 6 or 7 times. I think he generally gets too much credit for those last two titles.
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