Is The One Above All REALLY Omnipotent?

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Hulk99

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Can he create a rock that he cannot lift? Can he create an animal that he cannot control? Can he create another omnipotent clone of himself and beat him at an armwrestle?

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Hungry_Sharky

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Idgaf

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midnightdragon18

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The concept of true omnipotent is beyond our understanding-real answer

Yep, these are fictional characters-answer you want

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YIFY

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@hulk99 said:

Can he create a rock that he cannot lift? Can he create an animal that he cannot control? Can he create another omnipotent clone of himself and beat him at an armwrestle?

Nice try.

-yify

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Deadgod

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I am believe the reason behind the creation of this thread is to somehow prove TOAA is not omnipotent just so Hulk can smash him up on Battles forum.

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MaZeRaIII

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The concept of true omnipotent is beyond our understanding-real answer

Yep, these are fictional characters-answer you want

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Cream_God

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No he doesnt have YOUTH!!!!

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Claymore1998

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It's a fictional character as an embodiment of a writer sure he could do whatever he wants. Make a rock he can't lift, then lift it anyways saying in your face, haha ^_^

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Hulk99

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@midnightdragon18: Not true, omnipotence is within understanding: It's basically the ability to do anything you want.

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midnightdragon18

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@hulk99: yeah, that definition was defined by us. True omnipotent can't be defined by mortals Because we don't understand.

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Hulk99

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@midnightdragon18: Wrong. Mortals are capable of understanding omnipotence. In fact, omnipotence is the simplest concept to understand: The ability to do anything. However, omnipotence is impossible due to the paradoxes that come with it.

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lettsplay10

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@hulk99: yeah, that definition was defined by us. True omnipotent can't be defined by mortals Because we don't understand.

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AgentofChaos1

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#13  Edited By AgentofChaos1
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AgentofChaos1

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He is surely a omnipotent but he's not a writer

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midnightdragon18

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#15  Edited By midnightdragon18
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Hulk99

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@midnightdragon18: It's not the "mortal's" definition, it's THE definition. Omnipotence is the ability to do anything you want, but due to the paradoxes that come with it, it's not possible.

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midnightdragon18

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@hulk99: we(mortals) defined omnipotent.

Lets say that god,odin, zues or whoever you believe in was real. Words like impossible and paradox Wouldn't mean anything to him. We defined omnipotent and paradox.

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Redatom1234

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Batman>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>TOAA

Thats all that needs to be said...

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YIFY

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@hulk99 said:

It's not the "mortal's" definition, it's THE definition. Omnipotence is the ability to do anything you want, but due to the paradoxes that come with it, it's not possible.

Dude, you've tried creating a debate which would result in TOAA not being Omnipotent in anyway. but in doing so you've proved that no god in the Omniverse is omnipotent.

-yify

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Hulk99

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#20  Edited By Hulk99

@midnightdragon18: Humans didn't create the concept of "Omnipotent" and "Paradox" we discovered it. Remember, omnipotence is the easiest thing to understand. It's simple: The ability to do absolutely anything in any way you want.

And that's precisely why Zeus and Odin don't exist, cuz paradoxes by definition can't be solved. It's like saying 1 = 2.

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midnightdragon18

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@hulk99: see, this is why you don't understand. An omnipotent being could make 1=2 and 2=turkey

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Hulk99

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#22  Edited By Hulk99

@midnightdragon18: This is PRECISELY why an omnipotent being can NOT exist, because 1 can never equal 2.

And besides, explain the paradoxes I mentioned: Can he create a rock that he cannot lift? Can he create an animal that he cannot control? Can he create another omnipotent clone of himself and beat him at an armwrestle?

If the answer to any of those is Yes OR No, then he's not omnipotent. So either way, omnipotence is impossible.

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Hulk99

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@claymore1998: If he can make a rock that he can't lift then he's not omnipotent because there is something he can't do. If he can't create a rock that he can't lift then he is still not omnipotent because there is something that he can't do. So you just proved my point XD.

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midnightdragon18

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@hulk99: You're still trying to use common sense...which is why you fail to understand.

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JohnnyZ256

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@hulk99: Some philosophers believe that omnipotence is defined as the ability to do anything that is logically possible. It is not logically possible for God (or the TOAA) to make a square circle, for example, or to create a rock that He cannot lift.

I personally believe that God is so far above humans that He can, in fact, do things that are logically impossible, while at the same time not undermining his omnipotence. I am not absolutely certain of this position, though.

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Claymore1998

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@hulk99: hehe but he is not a real entity so the great divide between what he can and can't do does not exist.

We as a human being either can do something or can't do something. Say we are talking about God, as in a literal definition of a God who created the whole universe. Would the same logic apply to him.

Logic is a byproduct of creation, it shouldn't apply to someone who created it.

For us you can either have a rock that you lift or have a rock you can't lift. Because that's how logic works. There is a divide between what we can and can't so.

Who is to say the same thing about God. We know for a fact that the universe itself is vast and more mysterious and things there already defy logic. One example, quantum physics.

If you attribute a god as a creator of all things, then there really is nothing suggesting he would be bound by the same logic as us.

Maybe it's possible for him to have both who knows. It's not like anyone can say with any degree of confidence what or how a supreme being might experience.

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midnightdragon18

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Claymore1998

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#28  Edited By Claymore1998
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JediXMan

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#29  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator

Every paradox is the result of reality attempting to impose logic and structure to the universe. Example: squares are not circles, and therefore you have a conflict. Reality cannot allow both to be the same thing. Reality also cannot allow 2 + 2 to equal 3.

A being of true omnipotence has unlimited control over what we describe as "reality." No rules, logical or illogical, have power over you. If I were omnipotent, I would be able to create something that would ordinarily be a paradox, but would no longer be a paradox. I decide that the rules of the universe mean that 2 + 2 = anything I want, and it would make sense because reality says that it makes sense (based on my power). I create a thing that is both a 3D cube and a 2D circle. I create a being stronger than myself while I remain superior. I can create a scenario where I simultaneously follow all rules and defy all rules. There is no paradox, and there is no contradiction - they just are, because reality conforms to my whim, not the other way around.

The definition isn't hard to grasp. Actually visualizing it is very hard, because your brain forces you to conform to the laws of the universe. Now imagine a scenario where absolutely no rules apply - the omnipotent being decides the rules, or if there are rules at all. Words hold no meaning. Concepts like "and" and "or" exist on the same plane, and both can exist at once without error.

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Pharoh_Atem

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@jedixman said:

Every paradox is the result of reality attempting to impose logic and structure to the universe. Example: squares are not circles, and therefore you have a conflict. Reality cannot allow both to be the same thing. Reality also cannot allow 2 + 2 to equal 3.

A being of true omnipotence has unlimited control over what we describe as "reality." No rules, logical or illogical, have power over you. If I were omnipotent, I would be able to create something that would ordinarily be a paradox, but would no longer be a paradox. I decide that the rules of the universe mean that 2 + 2 = anything I want, and it would make sense because reality says that it makes sense (based on my power). I create a thing that is both a 3D cube and a 2D circle. I create a being stronger than myself while I remain superior. I can create a scenario where I simultaneously follow all rules and defy all rules. There is no paradox, and there is no contradiction - they just are, because reality conforms to my whim, not the other way around.

The definition isn't hard to grasp. Actually visualizing it is very hard, because your brain forces you to conform to the laws of the universe. Now imagine a scenario where absolutely no rules apply - the omnipotent being decides the rules, or if there are rules at all. Words hold no meaning. Concepts like "and" and "or" exist on the same plane, and both can exist at once without error.

/thread, tbh.

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Battle123axe

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HistoryEdit

Apparently responsible for the existence of all life in the Multiverse and possibly beyond,[1] the One-Above-All is the master and sole superior of the cosmic overseer and arbitrator known as the Living Tribunal, whose faces, embodying Equity, Vengeance and Necessity respectively, are in perfect alignment with one another as it passes judgment.

When the pregnant Susan Storm feared for her husband's possible death at the hands of the "all-powerful" Silver Surfer, Uatu the Watcher tells her that there is only one being that is truly "all-powerful", and that "His only weapon...is love!",[2][3] During an encounter with the Sorcerer Supreme Doctor Strange, the cosmic entity Eternity tells Strange: "I and my brother, Death, comprise all of your reality, mystic! Neither he nor I are God, for God rules all realities!"[4] When Thor once compared himself and Odin to various other gods and abstract beings in terms of power, he notes: "...and 'tis said that a being, called the Living Tribunal—the final judge—hath the power to enforce his will 'pon any cosmos he doth judge! And 'tis said his power is supreme in all the Multiverse. Even I, son of one of the mightiest of all gods, find it impossible to conceive of such levels of power! And 'tis a humbling thought to consider how much greater the Creator of all Universes must be than that of all of His creations combined!"[5]

The Living Tribunal is said to be "the representative of one whose might exceeds even Eternity", and the omniscient Infinity Well within Death’s realm describes the Tribunal as “the representative of the One who is above all.” The Tribunal later states: “It was Eternity who first brought this matter to my attention and whom I ruled in favor of. Laws set forth from Above declare that only he may now reverse that decision.”[6] Master Order, whilst observing Adam Warlock alongside Lord Chaos, said: “And may the Supreme Will smile on the golden warrior.” Warlock later recounts how he was called to judgment by the Living Tribunal, who he describes as “the servant of the One who is above even gods.”[7]

The Cosmic Cube Kubik on a tour of reality displaying various higher powers to Kosmos, upon meeting the Tribunal, tells her that while it is the most supreme power which can be comprehended, "Logic would indicate that the Tribunal itself is but another servant, but of what none dare imagine."[8] In the aftermath of the events of Infinity Gauntlet, the Living Tribunal easily undoes all the destruction an enraged Adam Warlock wreaks at his Trial, claiming that, "I represent forces that dwarf even your might. My authority comes from on High."[9] When the Protégé claims to the Living Tribunal and other cosmic entities that he is the most powerful being that ever was, and that he will surpass them all and move up, the Tribunal counters, "Impossible! There is only one above the Living Tribunal!" Later, after the Protégé declares himself the One-Above-All in an attempt to seize ultimate power, the Tribunal absorbs the Protégé into itself, proclaiming, "Your actions and intentions are inexcusable! Make your peace! May the One-Above-All forgive you!"[10]

The One-Above-All seemingly appears to the Fantastic Four in "Heaven", at the time of the Thing's death, praising them for their persistence in exploring the Marvel Universe and promising extraordinary new wonders to be discovered in the years ahead, and eventually restores the Thing back to life.[11] A grieving Peter Parker is encouraged by the One-Above-All, disguised as an elderly homeless man, to keep faith, when his Aunt May lay close to death.[12] When a bartender asks the demon Mephisto whether the Living Tribunal, having created the Infinite Embassy, was actually "God", Mephisto responds, "No, he's not God. He's just the biggest kid in all the playgrounds. And if he knows the Principal, he's not exactly chatty about it."[13]

Powers and AbilitiesEdit

Powers

As the supreme being within the Multiverse,[1] the One-Above-All is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omniversal, above all cosmic powers and abstract entities, even the Living Tribunal.

Power Grid

Fan Ratings

Intelligence

7

Strength

7

Speed

7

Durability

7

Energy Projection

7

Fighting Skills

7

Abilities

Beyond any known system of abilities.

Strength level

Beyond any known system of strength.

ParaphernaliaEdit

Transportation

Omnipresent

NotesEdit

The One-Above-All is not to be confused with the Celestial of the same name.

The One-Above-All is mentioned in the Appendix glossary of the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe, described as "the entity believed to be the supreme being/creator of the Omniverse".[14][15]

According to the Marvel Handbook profiles of Eternity[16] and Infinity,[17] “The only being known to have authority over Eternity is the Living Tribunal, which is itself a servant of a higher power known only as “the One Above All” (not to be confused with the Celestial of the same name)....Each universe has its own Infinity, all overseen by the Living Tribunal and its enigmatic master, the ‘One Above All’ (not the Celestial of the same name).”

After the Infinity War, Eternity informs the Infinity Watch: “Let it be known the power that the Living Tribunal represents will never again allow the Gems to work in unison. No matter what the crisis.”[18] However, Captain America’s successful use of the Infinity Gauntlet to repel an incursion from an alternate Earth,[19] coinciding around the same time the Living Tribunal’s corpse is found on the moon,[20] implies even this mandate has been somehow rescinded, with unclear implications.

The Presence is apparently the counterpart in the DC Universe to the One-Above-All.

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dernman

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#33 dernman  Online

@jedixman said:

Every paradox is the result of reality attempting to impose logic and structure to the universe. Example: squares are not circles, and therefore you have a conflict. Reality cannot allow both to be the same thing. Reality also cannot allow 2 + 2 to equal 3.

A being of true omnipotence has unlimited control over what we describe as "reality." No rules, logical or illogical, have power over you. If I were omnipotent, I would be able to create something that would ordinarily be a paradox, but would no longer be a paradox. I decide that the rules of the universe mean that 2 + 2 = anything I want, and it would make sense because reality says that it makes sense (based on my power). I create a thing that is both a 3D cube and a 2D circle. I create a being stronger than myself while I remain superior. I can create a scenario where I simultaneously follow all rules and defy all rules. There is no paradox, and there is no contradiction - they just are, because reality conforms to my whim, not the other way around.

The definition isn't hard to grasp. Actually visualizing it is very hard, because your brain forces you to conform to the laws of the universe. Now imagine a scenario where absolutely no rules apply - the omnipotent being decides the rules, or if there are rules at all. Words hold no meaning. Concepts like "and" and "or" exist on the same plane, and both can exist at once without error.

Good Post. The questions are flawed philosophical premise that I'm surprised people still use and believe in to discredit a concept. I've argue this many times before and am baffled why they stick to it so much.

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kyrees

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defining omnipotence with logic is like putting meaning into the unknown which really has no meaning at all.

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Hulk99

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#35  Edited By Hulk99

@johnnyz256: @kyrees: @jedixman: All of you are wrong and have proven my point. Something can only exist if it's logical, and since omnipotence is illogical, it is impossible to be omnipotent. This is precisely why one can NEVER be omnipotent. Omnipotence is defined as the ability to do absolutely anything in any way you wish. This is not possible to do because it defies logic, and something can only be possible if it's logical. If one was capable of doing anything that would mean that he/she should be capable violating logic, which is impossible. For that reason, you simply can't be omnipotent, because nothing can EVER do anything that is illogical which is precisely why nothing can ever be omnipotent. To put it simply: Because anything that exists can only commit logical actions, it's impossible to be omnipotent because nothing can ever be capable of commiting something which is illogical. This is precisely why there is no omnipotent entity that exists in reality.

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MasterKungFu

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nah that's chuck norris

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Hulk99

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kyrees

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#39  Edited By kyrees

@hulk99 said:

except the reality you are so holding dear in this argument is pretty much created by that omnipotent being and he/she decided to put that reality "in writing". what he/she decides in that reality is what will actually happen and it doesn't negate all he/she decided on whether it is contradictory to us or not.

another thing to consider is that you are so clearly holding dear on logic when our logic/human logic aka homo sapien logic is not the highest form of logic and therefore not the most conclusive logic simply because we haven't crossed logic to beings outside earth. all our attempts to explain omnipotence are still within human logic and is fundamentally incomplete.

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mysticmedivh

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#40  Edited By mysticmedivh

@jedixman said:

A being of true omnipotence has unlimited control over what we describe as "reality." No rules, logical or illogical, have power over you. If I were omnipotent, I would be able to create something that would ordinarily be a paradox, but would no longer be a paradox. I decide that the rules of the universe mean that 2 + 2 = anything I want, and it would make sense because reality says that it makes sense (based on my power). I create a thing that is both a 3D cube and a 2D circle. I create a being stronger than myself while I remain superior. I can create a scenario where I simultaneously follow all rules and defy all rules. There is no paradox, and there is no contradiction - they just are, because reality conforms to my whim, not the other way around.

I want to be that guy you're describing.

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midnightdragon18

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Just realized this was a troll thread lol

6/10

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Hulk99

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@midnightdragon18: That's what everyone says when they get proven wrong. People these days can't admit it.

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kyrees

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@hulk99 said:

That's what everyone says when they get proven wrong. People these days can't admit it.

you haven't proven anyone wrong and saying they are wrong without any significant justification doesn't cut it. all you did was use circular logic on something that created logic.

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skyroid

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#45  Edited By skyroid

@hulk99: It's simple omnipotent means to be able to do anything right?

If one can do anything then he's omnipotent

If one cannot do something he is not omnipotent because the omnipotent being would be able to do it.

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Gambit474

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@hulk99 said:

@midnightdragon18: Wrong. Mortals are capable of understanding omnipotence. In fact, omnipotence is the simplest concept to understand: The ability to do anything. However, omnipotence is impossible due to the paradoxes that come with it.

You should be RKO'd multiple times...Out of nowhere. Man can't understand omnipotence

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skyroid

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@gambit474: Wrong apparently hulk99 is above any man. Unlike us he can understand everything

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JediXMan

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#48 JediXMan  Moderator
@hulk99 said:

@johnnyz256: @kyrees: @jedixman: All of you are wrong and have proven my point. Something can only exist if it's logical

Wrong. To debate omnipotence acknowledges all that omnipotence includes, which is the power to do anything. There are no limits. "Logic" means absolutely nothing.

Logic is for people who are limited and are not omnipotent. If one is omnipotent, they decide what is logical. Logic is decided by universal laws; if you are omnipotent, you decide what those laws are, you can remove them, and you can simultaneously follow all laws and no laws, because those are your limits - nothing.

There's no debate, here, and just saying "wrong" over and over again doesn't mean a thing. An omnipotent being can make any contradiction, and they cease to be contradictions.

Remove the word "logic" from your vocabulary - a vocabulary consisting of symbols given meaning only because we give them meaning. Such concepts do not belong in a discussion regarding omnipotence.

@hulk99 said:

Omnipotence is defined as the ability to do absolutely anything in any way you wish. This is not possible to do because it defies logic

"The ability to do anything in any way I wish." Well, I decide that it is logical, and therefore it is. It is both illogical and logical simultaneously. 1 + 1 = infinity because I deem it so. I have the power to do anything I want, and it is so. I want to be a contradiction and not be a contradiction, and it is so. I want to see a single cat both alive and dead, while being observed and not observed, while existing and not existing, while never being born and living forever, while being fictitious and existing in the flesh, while being the size of an atom and being the size of the universe - and it is so.

To be omnipotent is to be above all laws.

@hulk99 said:

To put it simply: Because anything that exists can only commit logical actions, it's impossible to be omnipotent because nothing can ever be capable of commiting something which is illogical. This is precisely why there is no omnipotent entity that exists in reality.

Nope. An omnipotent being is not restricted by logic, as I have said. You have no argument.

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JediXMan

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#49 JediXMan  Moderator
@jedixman said:

A being of true omnipotence has unlimited control over what we describe as "reality." No rules, logical or illogical, have power over you. If I were omnipotent, I would be able to create something that would ordinarily be a paradox, but would no longer be a paradox. I decide that the rules of the universe mean that 2 + 2 = anything I want, and it would make sense because reality says that it makes sense (based on my power). I create a thing that is both a 3D cube and a 2D circle. I create a being stronger than myself while I remain superior. I can create a scenario where I simultaneously follow all rules and defy all rules. There is no paradox, and there is no contradiction - they just are, because reality conforms to my whim, not the other way around.

I want to be that guy you're describing.

As do I, man...

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dernman

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#50 dernman  Online

You can't have omnipotence. Omnipotence is mine. You can have impotence.