How can Living Tribunal lose fights?

16-dimensional multiversal being capable of erasing universes with his thought and depowering Infinity Gauntlets with a pinky finger motion, given sole stewardship of every universe by TOAA (him and nobody else) and keep the balance of everything that is. How can he lose fights or be weaker than other things?

Is TOAA basically bullshitting when he says that Living Tribunal is his hand and so acts in his name? Or is TOAA rather TOAMA (The One Above Mostly All) and his will and designs get countered by other people?

Are writers just terribad or is there any way to explain this crap?

Flagged for obvious reasons

The only time the Living Tribunal ever legitimately lost was his fight against the Beyonders (Ivory Kings). And they aren't even native to the Marvel multiverse.

HotU is non-canon and never happened.

PR Beyonder never directly fought him, though the Living Tribunal was completely powerless against him and was considered to be nothing but a microbe to the Beyonder. Like the Ivory Kings, he isn't native to the multiverse either.

That pretty much sums it up.

not a battle thread material

@zerdn: When he fights God Doom, Thanos with the gauntlet and Jar Jar Binks.

1/10

Predictable

Yes mate, asking a legit question that is entirely spawned out of common sense calls for the cyber poliss.

Moved it to Gen Discussion.

@mysticmedivh: I agree with everything you said, but didn't Protege beat him too?

@zerdn: 1/10

Come back when you have pancake mix

No. Protégé never fought or engaged the Living Tribunal in any way.

If they aren't native to the Marvel Multiverse, that means TOAA did not create them, which means he didn't create everything, which means he isn't omnipotent?

@buttersdaman000: TOAA is the writer so he did create them.

^^ Exactly.

Living Tribunal losing any fight basically means only 2 things:

- TOAA actually doesn't give him the power required to be the sole arbiter of reality and the whole multiverse. Btw, Multiverse = Infinite universes. Conceptually speaking there cannot be an universe outside the multiverse. Wasn't Beyonder described as "an universe" ?

- TOAA isn't worthy of his name, and is rather TOAMA, The One Above Mostly All, who can't give Living Tribunal the power to perform his task and as a result gets killed by the Beyonder(s).

Midnight kid, take a hike, nobody is asking you to rate a simple question.

@mysticmedivh: I thought he copied the LT's powers, and it took the combined effort of Scathan and the Living Tribunal to beat him?

I guess, but then that also implies that LT isn't #2, right? I mean he may be #2 in the Marvel Multiverse but he isn't #2 as far as TOAA creations go.

If TOAA created the Beyonders, why does he make Living Tribunal weaker than them? Isn't Living Tribunal there to be his number 2 (number 2 in all of reality) and the active hand of TOAA whenever cosmic balance is in danger? If so, shouldn't he have the power to overrule anyone other than TOAA himself?

@zerdn: Who's above TOAA then if he isn't worthy of his name ?

Exactly the next question. If TOAA isn't the 1 source of reality, omnipotent (truly not just lolz omnipotent for rhetoric), then he's a secondary agent subservient to the greater 1 God.

@zerdn: I agree... these cosmic heirarchy need to get it together

Yeah. By all means he is #2 in the Marvel multiverses (LT actually oversees multiple multiverses). The only time other beings have surpassed them have the word "Beyond" in their name and exist outside the multiverse/multiverses.

Protégé was summoned by the Living Tribunal to be judged upon. Scathan was brought along by the Living Tribunal for the sole purpose of recording the Living Tribunal's judgement upon Protégé. Of course Protégé didn't behave like a good little boy should and threatened everyone claiming he was the One Above All. As he was babbling about how he was all mighty Scathan then acted on his own and disapproved of Protégé.

• The Marvel multiverse is indeed infinite. And we know that there are multiple multiverses which the Living Tribunal judges.
• The Beyonder is not native to the multiverse and exists outside of it.
• PR Beyonder was a multiverse incarnate. According to the writers he came from a multiverse completely separate to that of the one we're familiar with.

So this answer is no.

TOAA is by all means supreme. TOAA is LT's superior and supposedly the one who gave him the power and authority.

TOAA is essentially a guy with a pencil and an eraser. He's the writer. The Living Tribunal is by all means the #2 in the multiverse. This does not account for the Beyonder/Beyonders who exist outside of the multiverse.

How can something exist outside (beyond) the multiverse to begin with? If the multiverse includes all the possible universes (infinite number), shouldn't Beyonder's universe be one of the possible universes?

How can there even be several multiverses when 1 multiverse is already infinite, meaning all?

And if TOAA is entirely omnipotent (meaning the creator of the Beyonders), and if Living Tribunal is his designed number 2, chosen to preserve the balance of reality of everything that TOAA created (including the Beyonders who are his creatures), how can he be defeated at all?

You're actually making assumptions there. TOAA could have created more than one Multiverse and just left LT in charge of the one we know with powers only to judge that one. It makes more sense this way considering the writers are TOAA. So TOAA is still omnipotent bu.t LT isn't

How you ask? Because it simply can. The writers decided things can exist outside the multiverse.

Again, it has been stated that there is more than one multiverse. The writers wrote it so and it is. You're going to have to ask them why.

If they have their own multiverse separate to that of the main Marvel multiverse then no, it shouldn't.

Just because the Living Tribunal is as far as we know the most powerful being in the multiverse, second to TOAA of course, does not mean other more powerful beings cannot exist. LT being strictly #2 is not set in stone. The writer can do whatever they want.

I blame this on Jim Shooter 100%.

When confronted with DC's Crisis on Infinite Earth, created a Deus Ex-Machina character to push the big Marvel event to compete, without caring how much it'd shatter any semblance of logic. It shows why Beyonder gets retconned time after time, and the only idea writers is to tell him "go away so you don't make the story hard to write, but stick around for the next time we may need some PIS to start a new event".

@zerdn: The Beyonder has only been retconned once.

Wat?

Beyonder was initially retconned from being a being greater than all the Abstracts combined, into an incomplete Cosmic cube, part of which gave Owen Reece his powers as Molecule Man,and the rest created the Beyonder.

Then he was retconned yet again in New Avengers, where he's actually a mutated Inhuman, and obeys Black Bolt as "his King".

And finally, when Marvel got asked how on Earth were they going to reconcile the stories that worked with Beyonder as a sentient Cosmic cube, with his stories as an Mutant Inhuman, and in one ultralazy cop-out they said "Beyonder can be whatever it decides to be, if he decides to be an Inhuman, then he is". So basically he's now a reality breaking thing that can choose its form.

It is extremely bad writing.

And that's where it stops.

The supposed Inhuman-Mutant Beyonder was merely an error.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/hickman-sets-the-stage-for-his-avengers-finale-marvels-secret-wars-part-1

Q: One of the things Doom and Strange are sure to be discussing is how to deal with the threat of the alien race known as the Beyonders who are behind the Incursions and the impending Multiverse collapse. There's been continuity in recent years that linked the Beyonders to the Inhumans, but there's also been some previous stories that established them as this omnipotent race. It looks like you're leaning toward the race of all-powerful beings approach, correct?

A: Early on I talked with Brevoort about this and my understanding is that the editorial position regarding the "New Avengers: Illuminati" [miniseries] Bendis wrote was that it was all a construct of that Beyonder. It was all unreliable narrator stuff and he wasn't Inhuman. I think that's clearly the way we've gone, but I don't know that Marvel would think they've ever moved off this path. It was just Beyonder shenanigans.

And finally, when Marvel got asked how on Earth were they going to reconcile the stories that worked with Beyonder as a sentient Cosmic cube, with his stories as an Mutant Inhuman, and in one ultralazy cop-out they said "Beyonder can be whatever it decides to be,

That was just stated in the handbook. But now we know there's no such thing as Inhuman Beyonder. It just went from the original to Cosmic Cube.

Wow, didn't know that, good information. I actually think this is pretty good. Cosmic Cube Beyonder is the one that makes the most sense. It is beneath Abstracts and Celestials, and the explanation for the first Secret War, although a bit simplistic, is still feasible enough. Inhuman/Mutant Beyonder was extremely bad writing. Thor-turning-unworthy-due-to-a-whisper, kind of bad

He should be called "Living Jobber" instead.

That's also a possibility.

Inb4 "Living Tribunal staged his defeat" to somehow let the Beyonders reshape the multiverse, and test the superheroes and Doom see what they do (dunt matter that all life outside Earth got creamed apparently). Oh, would you look at that, Secret War all over again. Beyonder let his powers be taken to see what Doom would do with them, on top of the Abstracts letting Beyonder think he was in control but they were just staging the whole thing to let him see what he'd do and grow up as well.

Good innovative writing is good, and SO NOT repetitive.

Actually characters of "god-tier" power level usually serve two purposes:

• Deus ex machina, someway to end the story quickly
• Jobbing so as to establish a newer, more dangerous threat

The Living Tribunal served the 1st purpose in The Infinity Gauntlet saga, and served the 2nd purpose in both the HOTU storyline and apparently its death by the hands of the Beyonders.

Such god-tier characters will not be involved in anything else outside of these rare occurrences, and thus your memory of these characters will be limited to these two purposes, and of course, the 2nd purpose of jobbing will stand out more.

TOAA is every marvel writer/editor put under a single character & given a name. Marvel hasn't openly stated that, but still has given some hint. And right now TOAA wants the story where the marvel multiverse is facing it's worst crisis. Just to make everyone know what's at stake, TOAA needs LT dead. So yeah, this time LT doesn't have TOAA's backup, Doom & beyonders does.

@MysticMedivh has covered it pretty well imo.

Getting slightly tired of hearing people say this about toaa over and over and over again(even in the same thread sometimes) as though it is somehow shedding some great insight on toaa as a character. Whether you simply want to see him as the God of the MU or just as the writer at the end of the day it is one and same anyhow since we all realize we are talking about comics whose highest authority will always be the writer. Toaa is a tool by which the writer can manifest their authority who is hardly made use of anyhow. How many times has toaa actually made an appearance in a Marvel comic? Like twice as far as I know. For purposes of the comics I do not think Marvel actually stands by this toaa=the writer either. I think in Marvel's eyes he/she is simply the Marvel God and people simply prefer to think of him as the writer since we all know the writer has toaa's powers conferred to them to some degree when they write. The purpose of fiction isn't for it to acknowledge its own fictional existence. That is usually only done with cartoons and certain characters who break the fourth wall as a gimmick sometimes. Marvel is its own universe/multiverse with its own cosmic hierarchy and own God so to speak. We don't need to constantly bring up the authority that writers have when writing stories in its fictional setting.

I'm pretty sure that I have argued before that due to the existence of the Beyonder TOAA wasn't omnipotent.

The Beyonder was a vague metaphor for the power of the real world over even the writers. The world Beyond the page. How money, laws, popularity, history, and power often determine the course of a written story.

Let me explain: Do you think the writers want to use the same characters over and over again? No, they don't, that's why you see so many different Flash heroes or Green Lanterns. The writer is trying to exercise their omnipotence to create characters with histories more relatable to themselves and contemporary readers. Unfortunately, some characters are beyond the power of even the writer. No one can permanently create a new Batman. He will always be Bruce Wayne until DC falls. He would probably be purchased or absorbed immediately, but possibly not. Even then Batman will exist outside of DC in our living memories and the lore of American culture for a long long time. DC couldn't change Batman's origin story any more than they can make Superman a mystic being powered by ancient magic. TOAA could never erase Spiderman from our culture despite his omnipotence. Even if they could, Marvel and thus TOAA depends on popular characters like that to stay alive by selling merchandise and movie tickets and cartoons.

I believe the Beyonder represented this power that the world outside of comics has even over TOAA.

That being said, I can understand how TOAA could create multiple multiverses. For instance, if Disney owned both Marvel and DC multiverses they would surely remain separate entities with their own separate pantheon and lore and omnipotent beings. But TOAA could still oversee both multiverses despite that fact that one is supposedly infinite.

By the way, Marvel clearly was not infinite considering the Beyonders and Rabum Alal and Black Priests killed every single one, one by one, in a very short period of time.

@overmonitor: I think that's a sort of interesting theory but my own view is that at the time of SW I think writers still mostly thought of Marvel as one giant universe. So when Shooter decided to do SW in collaboration with Hasbro(so they could have something to market the toys behind) it was just this idea of something outside of the standard MU(keep in mind that toaa didn't really exist in the minds of the writers back then) who could take all the heroes to battleworld while remaining mysterious and seemingly all powerful which would ultimately set up the big showdown between the Beyonder and Doom. At that time omnipotence hadn't really been explored in comics before that I can recall and they were exploring what that would mean as well as what it would mean for a human to gain those powers. I think the answer to the question may be that omnipotence or nigh omnipotence is a can of worms that comics were better off leaving closed.

Agreed. True omnipotence is something that is for starters hard to grasp, but trying to say that one omnipotent being battles another omnipotent being, and one of them loses, so he's less omnipotent than the other omnipotent is just a monument to conceptual stupidity.

TOAA/LT should simply have no trouble breezing through anything, or they're simply not omnipotent. In which case Overmonitor's post proves it: The mere fact Beyonder exists compromises the supposed omnipotence of TOAA. Or if not his power, then his wit. Because he lets stupid shit happen that go against his design, or if he gave them a free pass to destroy the multiverse, then he basically agreed to end his creation and implicitly agreed he does flawed shit.

Where are you getting all this? Fan speculation?. Honestly anything going on in the marvel multiverse could mean nothing to TOAA, the LT could mean nothing. We don't know anything.

Don't think about it too much. The writers will do what the writers will do, and there's nothing we can do about it.

Then he creates stuff he doesn't care about. Just cuz I guess.

According to that angle, TOAA = Azathoth from Lovecraftian lore. An idiot that just creates endlessly and mindlessly.

Once again more fan speculation. We don't know anything about TOAA, that's why its best it remains this way. By making him unknown and mysterious, it gives a true sense of omnipotence.

How does Lt losing make toaa any less omnipotent? Toaa as the writer is the one who killed every one off.

So basically TOAA was displeased with Living Tribunal services and fired him? Meaning no longer being n2?

@zerdn: ... No, toaa wanted to create a crisis story and what better way to show how big the threat was then to have Lt die?

Why would God want to create crisis all over reality?

@zerdn: Same reason dc created crisis on infinite earths. It's hard on new readers. It's the writers job to create a simple easy to understand plane for readers. It's a headache to see so many different versions