How can Justice League be great?

Okay, so we're three weeks away from the Justice League assembling on the big screen. Are you ready guys?

Except that's not the one we're talking about, ain't it?

Realistically, we're no less than 10 months away from the long awaited Justice League movie and everyone's asking "will it be positively reviewed by critics?" I suppose we're supposed to give an arbitrary YES or NO response, but it ain't that simple. At the end of the day, it's impossible to guarantee whether or not a movie will be any good. After all, the great Ben Affleck directed a Rotten film a few weeks ago, didn't he?

Beside there being aspects of a movie such as directors, writers, track record of the franchise and all which are either red flags are green flags, we can also ask ourselves "what does this movie need to do to be any good?" Oftentimes, a movie can surprise people by being another kind of great, but still great, but when it comes to superhero movies... we just want what we're paying for, so don't buy into the bullshit of anyone who tells you Marvel needs to "switch up their formula" xD

For example, take Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice. The bloody movie is called Batman v Superman. We're buying the ticket to watch the bat god and the most iconic superhero beat the shit out of each other. That's the selling point. That's good enough. I'm not paying to see a megalomaniac piss in a jar as a part of his masterplan.

Am I not making any sense? Just bear with my for a second.

Very recently, David Ayer, director of Suicide Squad, posting a wall of self-reflection on Twitter, wishing for a "time machine" which would will him to go back in time and make the movie Suicide Squad should've been. Say, make The Joker the villain instead of Cara Delivenge. Although I've been disappointed by every DCEU film thus far, it give me a glimmer of hope for Gotham City Sirens. If only a glimmer. Why? Because David Ayer is aware of his mistakes, meaning he can correct them in his next installment. It's nothing to be ashamed of at all. A good artist is capable of self reflection. It got me thinking of Zack Snyder with Justice League. I'm hoping he too can learn a lesson by owning up to his pride and taking the positive aspects of Batman v. Superman - which, there are positives. That warehouse sequence is amazing and Wonder Woman... oh god - and exemplify them, while not repeating the aspects of DoJ which made it such a frustrating experience.

To paraphrase, Zack Snyder promoting DoJ said:

If you're watching DoJ to watch Batman and Superman fight it out; yeah, you'll get that, but I'm hoping you'll also get... something MORE.

We don't want something more. We just want Batman and Superman to fight each other than shake hands over it, don't we?

Same applies for Justice League. WE WANT TO SEE THE JUSTICE LEAGUE BE AWESOME on the big screen.

We want to see THIS:

If the writers and director behind this movie understand that comic nerds are excited for this movie to see our favourite characters come to life on the big screen, to see "what-if?" scenarios play out in live action and witness Zack Snyder action sequences and cinematography porn... they can turn the tables and craft a good movie. We don't want a political thriller, an edgy take on the superhero and then an ensemble film. We want the Justice League, is all.

There are filmmaking principles you need to put in practice to utilise the full potential of this flick, but that's the fundamental goal I hope the guys at DC understood making this movie. You also need solid pacing: take time to let the characters breathe before assembling the team, but also don't take your sweet ass time setting up the action. Give us excellent action sequences, but also acknowledge that interaction between the heroes is just as good. People like to berate Marvel because "their dialogue is mostly inconsequential one liners" and believe me, I do think Marvel goes overboard with their humour at times, especially when they relegated Loki into a joke in The Avengers, but this dialogue develops dynamics between the team members. To avoid the Marvel misshape of writing childish dialogue as jokes, let the humour come out from the interactions and characters's personalities as opposed to "LANGUAGE!" As a matter of fact, I think they're already doing this as the dialogue between Diana Prince and Bruce Wayne in the trailer was the appropriate comedic tone and timing.

I hope Deathstroke and, or Green Lantern are nothing more than a post credit scene, as future set up burdened Dawn of Justice and made it less than the classic we were amped for xD

So, do I think Justice League will be the first GOOD film in the DCEU? Well, it certainly could be. Always easiest to take the cynic and pessimist route but that's why it's easy. Rising up and seeing the good, that takes guts. Gotta keep the hope... (thanks for the quote, @soldierofel). This is by no means a transformative blog though.

If you read this blog, thank you. A tremendous THANK YOU. I mean... what do I know? xD

@theamazingspidey Dude thanks for the shout out! Put a smile on my face.

Nice blog, I get where you're coming from. I'm cautiously optimistic about the film, I really want it to succeed and show that the DCEU can be successful and a good competitor to the MCU. Arguably Wondy will be the first to show that, hopefully, but just like she deserves her spot in the limelight, so does the JL. I still remember seeing the Avengers on the big screen for the first time and the chills it gave to the entire cinema were palpable. We should hopefully get that from JL. Would love some Justice League Unlimited vibes.

Also, I saw the Lego Batman thread you referenced at the start of the blog on reddit. I hope it doesn't fall to that to provide us with the best 'live action' Justice league.

@soldierofel:

Dude thanks for the shout out! Put a smile on my face.

?

Nice blog, I get where you're coming from. I'm cautiously optimistic about the film, I really want it to succeed and show that the DCEU can be successful and a good competitor to the MCU.

Thanks for reading. I hope Justice League will succeed to and prove the naysayers and myself wrong. All three films have disappointed my so far, but I'm one of those that saw potential in Dawn of Justice and am trying to practice what you preach by being more positive, heh.

Arguably Wondy will be the first to show that, hopefully, but just like she deserves her spot in the limelight

Oh god... don't even mention Wonder Woman, man. I am so nervous about that movie and will probably be one of it's harshest critics. I don't know if it's because of that that I think Justice League has more chance of being good than Wonder Woman, but it's really because Justice League is a lot safer. There's a threat > Batman puts together a team to fight this threat > internal struggle > they fight villain > the end. Wondy is a lot more complicated, especially being a period piece, an origin and telling the story of Diana losing faith in humanity. Let's just pray both of them are good ?

I still remember seeing the Avengers on the big screen for the first time and the chills it gave to the entire cinema were palpable. We should hopefully get that from JL. Would love some Justice League Unlimited vibes.

Avengers was truly something. Although I left the theatre disappointed (my bad, I literally had a plot in my mind entering the movie and was disappointed that it didn't line up) but it was truly a great experience in the theatre. I remember leaning over to my sister and whispering "this is the BEST movie EVER." Oooh, the chills.

Can't wait for Infinity War.

I hope the usual suspects don't come to this thread and ruin it...

Anyway, I'm hoping for the best, but not gonna get as excited as I was for BvS.

I've been waiting half my life for these characters to meet.

PS, MOS was the first good film in DCEU :p

Heh, that'd be hard to do. DCEU fans can't accuse me of being bias as this thread is me being cautiously OPTIMISTIC for the future of the franchise, and I gave my fair share of criticisms to Marvel, and MCU fans can't hate me 'cause then they'd only give credibility to the conspiracy of Marvel paying off critics to slander DC xD

Me too. I'm not as excited as I am for BvS. But isn't that what we all say until the awesome second trailer hits and the hype reaches 11? :P nah, I'm just kidding. Although there is truth to that.

Thanks for reading.

how to get people to love it: juvenile humor and ethnic food

how to make it GOOD: basically the opposite

Eh, even the humour has a part to play in making it good.

Cheers.

@amazing_webhead: I DO love ethnic food!

My take?

ENOUGH subversions. Stop trying to twist the characters to fit what you read in a Philosophy 101 book you picked up this weekend, Zack. And for Pete's sake, get that Watchmen garbage out of here! You can make Watchmen 2 another time!

Let Superman be the smiling boy scout who inspires us to be better people, not the moping catalyst for a bunch of news reporters we don't care about to talk about "Is God evil or is God good and can God be good if he isn't evil blahblahblahblahblah." Have him love humanity and have us understand why. Anything like "Men don't stay good" is an instant walk out.

If I see a single gun used by Batman to murder someone, I may walk down to WB myself and slam your face into a Batman comic so I can be sure you're reading it. And make him smart again, not the meathead he was in BvS! WORLD'S. GREATEST. DETECTIVE.

Have Aquaman feel like a king, have Cyborg feel like a kid in over his head (and throw in a "Booyah!", it's what everyone loves him for), have the Flash be quirky and Wally West-ish since that's already in the trailer and I don't mind it, let the characters BE the characters we love and let them have awesome interactions!

And even though you keep saying it, I feel like I have to remind you, let this movie be fun! I'm going to Justice League to have a good time with some of my favorites heroes, not collapse in a sobbing heap and question the meaning of life!

@theamazingspidey Another good blog.

I hear what you are saying, the main thing that holds them back is the studio in my opinion. No artistic freedom for the writers to do what they want.

If they can replicate a team dynamic like it was in Justice League and Justice League Unlimited and put together a great story that will lead them into the next movie, then this film could be amazing and finally give Marvel a run for their money.

If it ends up being better than Infinity War, that could be a pretty hard metaphorical dick punch to Marvel. It's a BIG IF, but cool to think about nonetheless.

Nice read. Dunno if JL will be great, but all we can go by is history at this point with not having seen the film yet. If you like Zack Snyder and his style of films and movies, then odds are you probably going to enjoy this just as well. If you don't like Snyder then I would suggest to refrain from getting your hopes up, you'll probably be disappointed and will be right back on these forums tearing him a new one.

I am excited for the JL movie. If it's good, then great but If it's bad, at least I get the entertaining of seeing how Zack will disrespect the characters even more.

@nicksmi56: thank you for sharing your own take on the matter. You did it greatly ?? Where we differ is that my blog was more about subplots as a whole, while your write up concerns the "deconstruction" of superheroes which Snyder is adamant of.

I agree with everything you said. We're buying the ticket to the movie to watch badass Justice League action and character interactions. We want nothing more. I doubt Snyder will try another deconstruction though. I'm so glad Geoff Johns is involved as he himself has expressed disdain for the DCEU's tone as of far.

But I thought Lois was the key?

it cant

@seastone98: only a sith deals in absolutes.

I will call you Darth Seastone ?

it won't be. It has Zack Snyder. As long as he's there, all hopes of it being good and unique is 0.

@darthaznable: you sound pretty confident, heh. Can we quote you on that?

Waiting for Captain Salt :v

@theamazingspidey: Go ahead. Not like the odds are against me. lol

Sorry, not excited for this movie, and don't think it will come close to redeeming the hole Snyder, Goyer and Terrio have dug the DCEU into. There's so much wrong in every corner from acting, dialogue, cinematography, empty character interactions, the overplayed symbolism trying to sound smart that doesn't really say anything valuable, the Michael Bay Transformers style action amongst others. It doesn't matter that Johns is going to be taking over the DCEU, it doesn't matter if Zack Snyder is fired from ever making another DC movie after Justice League, it doesn't matter if Superman suddenly becomes the inspirational boy scout fans love him for, it doesn't even matter if Justice League is the best DCEU movie yet. They're trying to close the stable door after the horse has bolted, trashed the yard and knocked over the fence. In essence, there's too much work to even know where to begin and confidence in them is at rock bottom outside of their diehard fanboys.

When it comes to getting the Justice League right, I'll stick with these shows above any multi million dollar franchise.

@thecrazybean: He's literally the Anti-Synderbot. MCUbot? Marvelbot?

@lvenger: Ditto!

QFT. Snyder drains originality and depth out of a movie like Bay drains subtlety and nuance out of his movies.

Not excited at all.

@theamazingspidey: ur funny I like u ^

@theamazingspidey: :)

@theamazingspidey: Nice read, and congrats for 10,000 posts.

Thank you, bro. I bless you with an internet hug:

I hope JL is full on Snyder lol

Yup. Pretty sure I said the same thing to my dad.

I hope Justice League can give us that. Gotta rise up, folks!

Nice reflection on the character interaction part. I liked that. Great blog

Zack Snyder said that a part of WW's character is going to be that Superman inspired her to become active again... that made me just wanna take a bath with a toaster. I've said this many times before, but I'll say it here now. There's a show called Clone High, where they make fun of teen dramas. In one particular episode, they introduce a character whose never been on but act like he's a big deal. They kill him off and everyone in school just mourns and even say things like "He was a regular character". It was a hilarious jab at this tactic being used for cheap sympathy that is unearned. Diana acting like Superman was important to her in JL (that is if he does it, he could be lying like he did with WW having a big role in BvS) just feels so false considering that there was no set up and even at the funeral Diana barely said anything at all regarding him. It was just, "Someone is coming? Let's get ready for war!". Am i still going to go see it? IDK, maybe, It won't be opening weekend though.

EDIT: I'll probably also shoot my brains out when Superman comes back cracking jokes and smiling

@saintwildcard: What and ruin a perfectly good toaster?! C'mon man

I liked the start of the DCEU with Man of Steel but since then i went downhill with each film so it needs a pick me up. I was really hoping to see Throne of Atlantis adapted for the big screen at some point but obviously not for Justice League one. I have no expectations, please surprise me.

Great blog. It's incredibly refreshing to see a little optimism about the DCEU for a change.

I agree with your assertion that Justice League could be a good movie. Maybe even great. It all comes down to whether or not Snyder (and more importantly Warner Brothers) have learned from their mistakes and are willing to go in a new direction, which for the most part I think they have. The tone of the first Justice League trailer was a good indication that they are lightening up. I personally like darker toned movies, so hopefully they don't go in a complete 180 and have a good balance between light hearted fun and brooding darkness.

@saintwildcard:

Imagine how much better BvS would have been if Snyder just expanded on the character of Clark Kent/Superman. Like, just 20 extra minutes of Superman/Clark that explores what he means to the world, and how he views the world......*sigh*.....

Still wouldn't have satisfied Saint :P

I thought his major issue with the movie was the lack of development for Superman?

20+ still doesn't cut it for Saint. He'd want Batman out of the entire movie xD

In all seriousness, I'm not Saint_Wildcard, but here's his review of the movie and it's more than an additional 20 minutes of Superman would solve.

Yeah, I read that lol I think more focus on Superman would fix most the problems he had with the movie at least

• I have alot of faith that Justice League will be good..Based on nothing but the assumption that Warner Brothers wont feel twice.
• But even with that said..Ive got this nagging feeling that Justice League is already Doomed becuase of Snyder being the director...And while i know he wasnt the main cause of BVS being a failure...But he definitely played a big part, And even though i loved Man of Steel it was definitely a deeply flawed movie and not very congruent with the Superman source material...Not saying it had to be exactly like the comics, but there was something very UNSuperman like about that movie, It was good but it felt like a Bizzaro else-worlds interpretation of Superman who at times seemed a little slow or way too emotionally detached..And you could have had Supes be introspective without him looking a depressed Emo kid...And that all roots back to Snyder becuase There seems to be some kind fundamental misunderstanding between Snyder and the Source Material..Which is even more so evident in his execution of BVS.
• Anyways those worries aside i,m positive that Warner Bros will learn from their past failures and give us a Good film...But I,m not confident enough in them to say it will be great..lmao..

To be honest, Justice League is exciting, but I'll be watching it for Batman, Aquaman, the Flash, and the return of Superman.

I liked BvS enough. Who wouldn't?! Batman vs. Superman on screen! Having said that, at times, the (visual) tone of superhero movies is the equivalent of an out-of-tune violin being played by a maestro. I'm like, "It's beautiful! But just imagine if it were perfect!" Marvel films want to be realistic, I get that. So gone with the spandex, and in with the tactical suits. Fine. But do you have to mute the color palette too? DC is doing that too. It worked for BvS, but that was because it felt like a Batman-centric film. It worked for Suicide Squad (to an extent), but that was because it centered on villains in a dark world. Batman, and Aquaman are going to be fairly dark characters. And I'm just excited to see Flash's capabilities, and how Superman returns. But Justice League (and Wonder Woman) have heroes who are typically super colorful, and now their colors are all drab.

(Also, all the jokes in the trailer fell flat for me except Batman's usefulness and Batman's fish.)

Will I watch it? Sure. Will I love it when it comes out? Maybe. Maybe all those jokes needed was context. But for now, the aesthetic is just a little too...dour.

It can be great if they don't try to do too much. That was my chief concern with BvS. They wanted it to be a Superman sequel, a Batman movie, a setup to Justice League, a setup for Wonder Woman, The Dark Knight Returns, The Death of Superman, all these Easter eggs, Bruce's constant dreams, Lex Luthor, etc... It was bloated, overstuffed, and unnecessary. They tried telling like 30 different stories instead of telling ONE.

I hate saying it, but JL has to be as straightforward as possible -- Establish the threat, establish the stakes, assemble the team, and stop the bad guy. You don't need to do anything more than that.

I also hope it's not as jokey as that trailer suggested. The only person that should be a wiseass is The Flash.

Let's just get this shit out of the way so I can get my Teen Titans movie.

That review was written when I was still on the border with the movie, since then I've just come to find more and more flaws and I've only really seen it once plus all the leaked extra scenes.

I'll agree that I had pretty high hopes for the flick, but it's ones that were created from MoS, the trailers and the interviews. Putting Lex and Batman's screentime to the side, I think had the entire Superman side of the story (this includes Lois, the DP, his Ma and possibly even the Senate stuff, although I think that part had to be scrapped). been reworked into something that fleshes him out and the troubles he's going through in a way that makes you wanna root for him instead of just seeing him be a bitch, the movie would have been a lot better for sure. Heck, just adding that scene I put in the Reboot, where Clark goes save people in a banned country despite getting shot at with missiles, that would have give us so much in terms of making the world a character (which the movie didn't do) and Superman would have been shown more confident in himself even though the insults do get to him at times.

WHen I bring up Batman and his screen time, it's because I see how much they dedicate to him despite it being all fluff and unimportant. Superman saving people and the philosophical/political aspects of Superman being around are crammed into a montage that even by the end he's just bummed. But for Batman we have to see a ton of dream sequences that convey the same message, his butt in that shower scene or him mowing a ton of people down despite shooting the truck with a tracker... so like why did he have to do all that mayhem? Wonder WOman's only purpose outside of helping with Doomsday, was to give Batman more screen time... did I forget that we saw his butt and him in bed after banging some chicks? All very important to the movie

It doesn't help that his Storyline was the most boring in the movie.

*sigh*.... I just gotta... I gotta stop talking about BvS. I think I had moved on, but the WW information just made me go ballistic