Goku's Universe Busting Feat and other DBZ characters Debunked

@blackphantom: One of My Twitter friend did that calculation

Here's the calculation

Ok so Comparing Goku's height of 5'9 you can estimate the size of the 10 tonne weights he used on each limb just before the Buu saga. They are roughly 0.23m x 0.1m radius, with a hollowed cylinder of about 0.04m radius, which is based on the length of the forearm of someone 5'9" and the width of his fist, which is about 8cm. This give's them a total volume of about 0.006 cubic meters, and a density of around 1,650kg per cubic meter.When Training on King Kai's planet at the beginning of Super, King Kai creates 5 equal sized weights for Goku. They are the same colour and type as the weights Goku used before. So its safe to assume they are the same material, just much much larger.

Three are roughly 1.17m tall and 11.54m in diameter

Two are roughly 1.17m tall and 10.04m in diameter.

This means a total volume of 552.4 cubic meters.

With a density of 1,647 tonnes (Note in the last message I said Kg, I meant tonnes) per cubic meter, Goku was squatting roughly 1 million tonnes. I measured at 909,730 tonnes.

But given that King Kai does things in nice round numbers, say 2 tonnes each, then 10 tonnes each, and the fact that they are drawn different sizes in different scenes, (I took the larger of the drawings to base it on) I think its fair to say that Goku was actually squatting a nice round 1,000,000 tonnes.

But remember that on King Kais planet, there is x10 earths gravity, meaning this was actually 10 million tonnes.

So Super Saiyan Goku would be able to lift 500 million tonnes

SS2 would lift 1 billion tonnes and SS3 would be able to lift 4 billion tonnes.Now Goku fought Beerus as Super Saiyan 3, which is 4x stronger than Super Saiyan 2 which is the highest Transformation Vegeta can do.

When Goku fights Beerus, he is totally out classed, but when Beerus fights Vegeta, Vegeta was enraged by Beerus slapping Bulma and becomes stronger than Goku. We know this because of two things. 1) Beerus tells Vegeta he was more entertaining than Goku, and 2) Beerus tells Vegeta he's never had to use 10% of his power before to defeat someone who wasn't a God.

But in order to find out how strong SS3 Goku is compared to Beerus, we have to know how much of an increase Vegeta took from the rage attack.

When you read about the officially release power-levels from the show, the manga, the games and pamphlets and so on, you realise that Gohan has more rage attacks than anyone and when he does he gets 8x stronger, each time.

So if you say that Vegeta gets 8x stronger from the rage-attack, that would put his normal SS2 level at around 1% of Beerus Max and therefore Goku (since Goku and Vegeta are about the same strength) at around 4% Beerus Max.But how much stronger is Super Saiyan Blue?When Goku fights hit, he goes Kaioken - which doubles all of his abilities. This shocks Beerus and Whis asks him if that worries him. Beerus says "no, but why didn't he use such a handy technique on me before?".

Now Beerus has lied in Dragonball Super before, a few times. And when he does, it's obvious. Here, he appears to be telling the truth. So Goku getting twice as strong doesn't worry Beerus, but it does shock him. So Goku has raised his power enough for Beerus to take him seriously, but not enough to make Beerus think he might lose. It stands to reason that Kaioken SSB is close enough to Beerus Max to take notice of, but not high enough to win. Somewhere around 80-90% of Beerus Max.This means Super Saiyan Blue is around 10x Stronger than Super Saiyan 3.Now it fits that SSB is around 10x stronger than SS3 because Akira Toriyama said it was his version of SS4, and SS4 was 10x stronger than SS3.This means that Super Saiyan Blue Goku can lift 40 billion tonnes and that SSB Kaioken x10 Goku can lift 400 billion tonnes.I has said 200 billion tonnes previously when I sent you that pic with all the details on it, but I realised I was counting the total amount of weight Goku was lifting in the Buu saga, instead of just on one arm or leg.As for his speed, its really simple compared to that.Einsteins theory of General Relativity states that the closer to the speed of light to move at, the slower time moves for the person travelling. Although its pretty solid comicbook lore, scientists have recently concluded that if you COULD travel at the speed of light, for you, time would stop.Now Goku can do Time Skip, when hit pauses time for himself, but what he did instead was travel so fast that time stopped for him too. That means SSB Kx10 Goku can move at lightspeed.Now Goku can do Time Skip, when hit pauses time for himself, but what he did instead was travel so fast that time stopped for him too. That means SSB Kx10 Goku can move at lightspeed.The proof is that Beerus still thinks he'd beat a Kaioken SSB. That means Kaioken SSB is weaker than Beerus 100%, which means SSB is weaker than Beerus 50%.

It's just logic.

Where as Akira Toriyama said Super Saiyan God is like a 6 compared to Beerus 10. And in the movie Battle of Gods, Goku said he was only using 80% of his power which Beerus was using under 70% - which puts SSG Max at around the same as Beerus 80%."

It was for an example, it doesn't really matter, I have other scenes that can prove that point if I wanted.

Since when is the Dizenshuu not canon? The Kanzenshuu is maybe, but the Dizenshuu is official.

@spitfirepanda: Well it was the only calculable speed feat Goku has shown, so its other people's call if they want to use this feat or not.

@butterdaman000: My friend Do u mean World war 3?

Can somebody else - literally anybody else - confirm that is the only calculable speed feat that Goku has? I feel like I've been lied to for years.

@blackphantom: Good point.

OK first, who the f**k did this calculation?

Second, you can't really argue with me about his lifting strength.

You copied someone else's calculation off of twitter, that you don't even know if it is right or wrong.

Third, the calculation is wrong because I just literally showed a scan a Vegeta unable to lift over 1,000 tons in Super Saiyan, let alone 500 million tons.

Actually, Goku used 100% of the Super Saiyan Gods power. How do you think the power ran out if he didn't go all out?

Goku actually stated that he was 100%, after Beerus said he was at 100%

We all know that Beerus was lying, but Goku wasn't.

SSG is just 70% of Beerus's power unless Toryiama or anyone else says other wise.

Beerus Never Used 70% You guys are Mixing Super With the Movie

Beerus used way less than 70% in dbs

@blackphantom: I post his calc because I was agree with him.

My friend I didn't realize that u will use that "f***"word.

@blackphantom: Goku is most likely universal him and Beerus where holding back when there punches where destroying the universe. Kid Buu did destroy a galaxy in the anime. And kid Goku's speed is debatable considering he was faster than the solar flair which is light. Nothing here has been debunked just the typical feat nitpicking to try and prove that superman would win a fight and they say DB fanboys are bad.

Except Beerus said that an Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta used 10% of his power in , so as it stands, the 70% part is still accurate.

1. "Goku is most likely universal him and Beerus where holding back when there punches where destroying the universe."

Read #1 in my post.

2. "Kid Buu did destroy a galaxy in the anime"

That was filler

3. "kid Goku's speed is debatable considering he was faster than the solar flair which is light."

Goku was around lightning Speed in the Dragon Ball series, officially stated.

4. "Nothing here has been debunked just the typical feat nitpicking to try and prove that superman would win a fight and they say DB fanboys are bad."

I am feat nitpicking, and I am not a Superman fanboy, I just hate it when I see Dragon Ball fans on every comment section for every hero other than Dragon Ball.

Spawn? "Yamcha can beat him"

Thor? "Krillin wrecks"

Hulk? "Broly Stomps"

Galactus? "Vegeta got this"

Superman? "Goku beats him"

Anti-Monitor? "Beerus is stronger"

It's really annoying TBH, so I thought I would debunk everyone's claims, and now Dragon Ball fans like you are coming at me saying I am low balling even though I am providing valid evidence, from official guidebooks, to statements made by the author and the characters, to basic math, etc..

But then again, what would I expect from a guy with a Goku profile pic and username to say......

@blackphantom: Goku could beat some versions of superman. Hulk vs Broly is a stalemate. I've never seen someone who wasn't trolling say Yamcha can beat spawn. The other fights are mismatches. It's also annoying when people say "Goku can't bust a planet because he hasn't" or power scaling and statements don't count when it's dbz but its fine with comics or any other anime you haven't done this tho.

@gokuss4z: I have seen a couple of Dragon Ball fans say that, I never said Goku couldn't bust a planet, he could if he wanted to, so can Superman, Thor, SHAZAM, and others they just don't want to kill people.

TBH, I never power scale, power scaling is stupid, if you were to power scale Squirrel Girl in Marvel comics would be one of the strongest characters since she beat Thanos.

Spiderman would be one of the strongest since he beat Hulk once, and even punched him into outer space.

Superman would be near universal since he has fought and beat universal beings.

Don't even get me started on Batman.

This is why I don't power scale (or at least try not to).

@blackphantom: I never said you said any of that. With Dragon Ball you have to powerscale otherwise master Roshi can beat Hit because he destroyed a moon. At the end of it it depends on what versions of the characters you're using both fanbases can be toxic I don't agree with this post but I respect your opinion :)

@blackphantom: Beerus is known for lying if beerus really used 10% then goku and vegete would have surpassed him a long time ago goku and vegeta in their base are already above ssj3 gotenks

Twitter friend:While I understand their points, you have to remember that while Magetta was only 1000 tonnes, he is also absurdly strong and could remain on the ground through Ki too. Much the same way Broly did when he took a knee to the chin.

On top of that is something FAR more important. You see in Dragonball and Dragonball Z the anime was based on the Manga. But in Dragonball Super its the anime that comes first and the Manga is based on it. So this time around, when it comes to canon and what's more correct, the anime trumps the manga if the two differ. In Dragonball and DBZ it was the manag that trumped the anime if the two were different. Not this time.

In the anime, Vegeta doesn't try to lift up Magetta at all. In the anime, Goku can lift 1 million tonnes on a planet with 10x Earths gravity. (10 million tonnes).

So they're wrongThat said, None of them are anywhere near as physically as strong as Thor or Superman.

@blackphantom: Twitter friend:While I understand their points, you have toremember that while Magetta was only 1000 tonnes, he is also absurdly strong and could remain on the ground through Ki too. Much the sameway Broly did when he took a knee to the chin.On top of that is something FAR more important. You see in Dragonball and Dragonball Z the anime was based on the Manga. But in Dragonball Super its the animethat comes first and the Manga is based on it. So this time around, whenit comes to canon and what's more correct, the anime trumps the manga if the two differ. In Dragonball andDBZ it was the manag that trumped the anime if the two were different. Not this time.In the anime, Vegeta doesn't try to lift up Magetta at all. In the anime, Goku can lift 1 million tonnes on a planetwith 10x Earths gravity. (10 milliontonnes).So they're wrongThat said, None of them are anywhere near as physically as strong as Thor or Superman.

@blackphantom: Twitter friend:Yeah, the manga lowballs Vegeta, and therefore Goku.

That said, DBZ anime put Goku's base strength at just under 400 tonnes. The DBS Manga puts it at below 1000 tonnes, but the anime puts it at WAY over 1000 tonnes.

Like I say, the difference is that the DBZ anime was based on the manga, whereas the DBS manga is based on the anime.

The problem with Dai whatever is the fact that Super really retconned plenty of things, and the source material come first, if the guide contradict the manga, or anime, it does not superceded. Like Madara attack being call light speed when there neve been a feat close to that. Some of the debuk I do agree. I mean is easy to call this a bait thread, but he put some effort into it, even if some are wrong, but who isn't wrong when trying to prove a fictional feat with logic.

1. Goku isn't a universe buster, however your argument is very weak because you're using a photo that is not to scale, not to mention all the stuff we have in super

2. Not sure how this proves that Beerus can't casually bust a universe

3. Even SSB Goku isn't faster than light, no need to bother with kid Goku

4. I highly doubt that current Goku is at that level

5. Anyone who thinks Goku is faster than time doesn't know what he's talking about, it was obvious that Goku was unaffected due to the power gap between them, and this was actually stated in the manga btw

6. I don't think Goku needs a Ki lock if he can see where he's going, and why the hell would sending Superman to the sun be beneficial to Goku?

7. He probably can, but there is no way to tell

8. Goku's feat was actually destroying planets and stuff across the universe, Thor's feat only destroyed a few windows, so that's not a valid comparison

9. You obviously picked a version of Superman that is unaffected by energy because you know that Goku's ki blasts would do some serious damage to a normal Superman :)

1. How is my argument weak, saying the Dragon Ball universe is a condensed version of our own in which everything is smaller but they see everything the same way we do?

2. It shows that he can only destroy the Dragon Ball universe if he was at full power not casually.

3. Yes, Goku in the original Dragon Ball is only around lightning level, officially stated by Po-Po (I provided a scan above.)

4. Is this referring to the combat speed calculation? If so, it is correct, King Kai did state he could not see them, but he was able to see something moving at 2,221x Light Speed. It is a basic math equation.

5. I literally said that in the post.

6. He need's a lock-on to do it altogether, Utilizing Instant Transmission causes the user to go into a "Teleportation Zone", and then drop out of it somewhere else by locking onto ki.

I meant to put Red Sun not Yellow sun.

7. I was only using Super Saiyan, he has 2, 3, God, and Blue still, so yeah he can do more.

8. Just because the comic never showed a planet being destroyed doesn't mean that it couldn't have done it or it didn't do it, read the context of the scan.

"Not since theBig Bang had has such an irresistible force had been loosed in the universe!"

Do I have to explain what the Big Bang was?

The waves went throughout the entire universe.

9. No I just wanted to prove that even weak versions of Superman can beat him.

-Post-Crisis Superman
-Pre-Crisis Superman
-Cosmic Armor Superman
-Superboy Prime
-Etc

Theses versions are all just overkill for Goku and do not need to be needed

This thread went from discussing DB feats, which is reasonable, to DB vs Comics. These things only end one way.

@blackphantom:

Gokus punches are not quantifiable that is correct.... but that is not the current diagram of the Dragonball universe or the twelve universe....

Also there are actually multiple things to disprove your claim like the Super dragonballs being 25x the size of our Earth and if we go by what you said we should be able to see them from the map...

And by you're logic the uninverse is only

200,000 km long which is beyond ridiculous

If that's the case the Super dragonballs would not be able to fit in the universe since their total combined length is 260373.5428 km

Goku doesn't have a "universe busting feat", or even a galaxy level feat for that matter.

@blackphantom:

Also the 70% scale has long since been retconned.

If that was the case current super Saiyan Blue would be 7x stronger than Beerus

@thedarkpaladin: @le0nhart:

Is The Hyperbolic time Chamber the size of Earth or Infinite???

I do agree that shaking a universe while clashing someone does not equal universe level attack, at multi galaxy maybe. Also the scaling of the guide has been disproved several time in the manga/ Super .

The very first scan in the post gives it away as thoroughly misinformed... Lot of effort put in the post by the looks of it, so respect for that.

@beast_mode999: I don't recall.

I said that the Dragon Ball universe is a condensed version of our universe, meaning everything including Planets, stars, living organisms, etc, are smaller.

Here is an updated version of the map if you would like to see.

As you can see, it is the same, snake way is still half of the universe

Actually he did use 70%, it hasn't be "retconned" and I will show you why.

If you take a look back to the Dragon Ball Z Rival of F movie before Super came out, Goku states that he got a "taste" of Super Saiyan God and he combined that power with Super Saiyan to get Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. I am going to make up some numbers here...

Lets say Goku's base is 5,000,000 and lets say that SSG was 200,000x base.

Goku as SSG would be 1,000,000,000,000

Now let's say Beerus is 1,500,000,000,000

70% of that is 1,050,000,000,000

Now let's say Goku absorbed 4,400x of the SSB multiplier.

Goku as SSB would be 1,100,000,000,000

Still stronger than SSG but Still weaker than Beerus.

great, spouting fan numbers as if they "officially" explain what happened in super.

these fan numbers are bit triggering me from my sleep.

I never said my numbers were official, I said they were made up to use for an example

Since they never explained what really happened in Super or the manga, I guess you can go by the movie, since it was the original concept after all.

they mean nothing. dragonball hasn't used official power level since frieza saga by daizenshu standards and any number after that only appeared in v-jump and they are used rarely. super hasn't used numbers at all to describe their power levels so why do fans still cling to that old notion ?! dragonball super has a number of feats to help everyone here.

a retelling is far more recent and in line with how they treat the dragonball movies, the series is practically the de facto data to be gleaned on regarding super.

Dat Xenoverse 2 written by toriyama

This also falls in line with Majin Buu being stronger than Beerus a LONG time ago. Back then Beerus was stated to be capable of destroying the Kaioshin Realm which is 1/10th the universe. Thats still multiple galaxies, and a lot of them at that.

I'm not going to debunk your obviously misinformed jibberish because the same subject is getting old and you're so ill informed I've never seen anything like it.

@blackphantom: Twitter friend:As far as feats go, you can't measure them on what something looks like in Dragonball. Even if its something like destroying a planet or moon. Thats because they use these feats to show strength at various stages throughout the series. First Mastar Roshi destroys the moon, then Piccolo does, then Vegeta destroys a planet, then Frieza does, now Beerus does with a sneeze. Its the same feat, but wildly different powers, so you cant rely on it.

What you can rely on is that Goku only just couldn't lift 400 tonnes in the Buu saga.

That SS3 Gotenks flew around the Earth 9 times in 9 minutes.

And that Goku SSB Kx10 can move at the speed of light.

Someone is butthurt

@juzacloud said:

Dat Xenoverse 2 written by toriyama

This also falls in line with Majin Buu being stronger than Beerus a LONG time ago. Back then Beerus was stated to be capable of destroying the Kaioshin Realm which is 1/10th the universe. Thats still multiple galaxies, and a lot of them at that.

I'm not going to debunk your obviously misinformed jibberish because the same subject is getting old and you're so ill informed I've never seen anything like it.

1. It's a video game, not canon, unless you are saying characters like Demigra, Mira, etc, are canon.

2. Read #1 in my post, I never said the DBZ universe had only 4 galaxies now did I? It is not my fault that you did read it carefully.

There is nothing to debunk here lol.Their universe is same as ours or bigger...Goku have a universal destruction potential or capability and that doesent mean that he will do it or develop it soon.i know some fan bases are getting butthurt over his power boost but trying to apply logic and debunk on a fictional character and fantasy is ridiculous.

not worth my effort.

@blackphantom said:

@beast_mode999 said:

@blackphantom:

Gokus punches are not quantifiable that is correct.... but that is not the current diagram of the Dragonball universe or the twelve universe....

Also there are actually multiple things to disprove your claim like the Super dragonballs being 25x the size of our Earth and if we go by what you said we should be able to see them from the map...

And by you're logic the uninverse is only

200,000 km long which is beyond ridiculous

If that's the case the Super dragonballs would not be able to fit in the universe since their total combined length is 260373.5428 km

I said that the Dragon Ball universe is a condensed version of our universe, meaning everything including Planets, stars, living organisms, etc, are smaller.

Here is an updated version of the map if you would like to see.

As you can see, it is the same, snake way is still half of the universe

Would you like to explain the Super dragon balls being able to fit in this universe or not?

Because again by your logic the DBZ universe is only 200,000 km in diameter while the super dragonballs are over 260,000 km in diameter combined

What math are you in because not even that makes sense.

How does this not make sense?

5,000,000 * 200,000 = 1,000,000,000,000

I gave Beerus a 1,500,000,000,000

1,500,000,000,000 * .70 = 1,050,000,000,000

Goku said he absorbed a taste of Super Saiyan God in the movie, if I remember.

So lets say he absorbed 4,400x the multiplier, and multiply that by 50 because the Super Saiyan multiplier is 50.

5,000,000 * 4,400(50) = 1,100,000,000,000

It basic math dude....

@beast_mode999 said:

@blackphantom said:

@beast_mode999 said:

@blackphantom:

Gokus punches are not quantifiable that is correct.... but that is not the current diagram of the Dragonball universe or the twelve universe....

Also there are actually multiple things to disprove your claim like the Super dragonballs being 25x the size of our Earth and if we go by what you said we should be able to see them from the map...

And by you're logic the uninverse is only

200,000 km long which is beyond ridiculous

If that's the case the Super dragonballs would not be able to fit in the universe since their total combined length is 260373.5428 km

I said that the Dragon Ball universe is a condensed version of our universe, meaning everything including Planets, stars, living organisms, etc, are smaller.

Here is an updated version of the map if you would like to see.

As you can see, it is the same, snake way is still half of the universe

Would you like to explain the Super dragon balls being able to fit in this universe or not?

Because again by your logic the DBZ universe is only 200,000 km in diameter while the super dragonballs are over 260,000 km in diameter combined

I said 2,000,000 km not 200,000 km

They would be able to, if the DBZ universe was 2,000,000 in length.

The Dragon Ball are only 3 times the size of a Dragon Ball sized Earth.

They can still fit in the universe, they wouldn't even be 1/4 the size of the Dragon Ball universe.

@blackphantom:

Snake way is only 100,000 km so you're wrong there

And wrong again their confirmed diameter is 32,000 km per Dragonball

and wrong again they are 25 times the size of DBZ Earth

So no they would not be able to fit...

Debunked

The manga in super has ssb being 10x stronger than ssg and then goku actually increased his power by x10 when he went Ssb Kioken x10 so if that's the case you would have him 7x stronger than beerus even though Beerus was still much stronger than him