@Alch21: And maybe I have? That doesn't change the fact that the comic book industry has been on a decline and that doesn't change my opinion, so, what is your point?
@zombietag: I never said the reboot didn't work for DC. They got so much money they can sit on their porches happily like fat cows. I'm upset that they used the reboot as an excuse to "attempt to make great stories" when they could have done the same with what they have now. From what you said, you make it seem like lesser known characters are a bad thing. Last time I checked, X-23 wasn't very known when she became a popular character, not to mention the fact that she has her own title now, or the fact that Avenger Academy has been doing fine and last time I checked, it doesn't have Wolverine, or some of Marvel's most popular characters. It's a progression, if DC had been using the characters they have to the fullest they could have been able to properly estimate who could sell well and what kind of stories they could release with them. When you have hundreds of characters to paint canvas's of enormous side and imagination, there is no reason to reboot the universe, especially when they haven't even bothered to explore the entirety of the universe they created.
Trying to tell better stories? I disagree. They're trying to tell the same stories to a new audience. They did it 20 years ago, and they're doing it now. Better stories are often stories that haven't been told before, and once again. You can't tell to many new stories with characters that have over 70 years worth of history things are bound to repeat as the rogue gallery and the characters themselves have not undergone to much change, which is why exploring newer characters allows for newer, better, and greater stories.
@Alch21: And maybe I have? That doesn't change the fact that the comic book industry has been on a decline and that doesn't change my opinion, so, what is your point?
@zombietag: I never said the reboot didn't work for DC. They got so much money they can sit on their porches happily like fat cows. I'm upset that they used the reboot as an excuse to "attempt to make great stories" when they could have done the same with what they have now. From what you said, you make it seem like lesser known characters are a bad thing. Last time I checked, X-23 wasn't very known when she became a popular character, not to mention the fact that she has her own title now, or the fact that Avenger Academy has been doing fine and last time I checked, it doesn't have Wolverine, or some of Marvel's most popular characters. It's a progression, if DC had been using the characters they have to the fullest they could have been able to properly estimate who could sell well and what kind of stories they could release with them. When you have hundreds of characters to paint canvas's of enormous side and imagination, there is no reason to reboot the universe, especially when they haven't even bothered to explore the entirety of the universe they created.
Trying to tell better stories? I disagree. They're trying to tell the same stories to a new audience. They did it 20 years ago, and they're doing it now. Better stories are often stories that haven't been told before, and once again. You can't tell to many new stories with characters that have over 70 years worth of history things are bound to repeat as the rogue gallery and the characters themselves have not undergone to much change, which is why exploring newer characters allows for newer, better, and greater stories.
btw just to let you know, people are starting to think comics are on the INCLINE now so to speak. since september sales have gone up digitally and print wise. things are still bad, but there's some light at the end of the tunnel.
anyways, no i think youre missing the point of the reboot. it wasnt a cop out or a quick fix or even a plan to get more money (although i certainly think that was part of it), i think it was more like an idea that could help out with the decline in comics that you were speaking of, reach new audiences, and encourage creators to really bring out their best. and i think all of those goals were met.
im not saying wolverine or batman need more titles, but i think the reboot is a good thing and has been successful on a lot of levels. i understand a lot of people want to see smaller characters get spotlights, but its hard to do that all the time. x-23 and avengers academy are cool, but the truth is that they will never make as much money as spider-man or batman. ever. if they do, it will be years from now. so, one title is enough for now. and again, some smaller characters did make their way into the 52 (grifter, cyborg, amazing man, frankenstein, animal man, even swamp thing) and some didnt, but were also going to have some minis coming up as well (huntress). but when one of the goals is reaching new audiences, you want a classic superman story for people who want to read superman. and something classic doesnt have to be bad. might not be my cup of tea, but i cant be upset at that approach. and none of this has to equal poor storytelling or art.
plus honestly, in my opinion theres nothing new under the sun anyways. on a lot of levels, all stories have already been told already and people just rewrite them. but i think thats true for everything.
@zombietag: It's more accurate to say that, "All stories have been though of, but not all stories have been read, nor have they been retained."
And for information's sake, I have not read anything but the last two sentences of all your posts since a page ago. I refuse to read all of any of your posts until I have confirmation that you took the time to read my article.
@zombietag: It's more accurate to say that, "All stories have been though of, but not all stories have been read, nor have they been retained."
And for information's sake, I have not read anything but the last two sentences of all your posts since a page ago. I refuse to read all of any of your posts until I have confirmation that you took the time to read my article.
that may be true. haha oh okaaay. CONFIRMED. read all of the [problem 1] of your article.
As everyone has noticed, the comic industry has been on a steady decline for a very long time. It’s hard to exactly pin point when, and it’s even harder to describe why it has been so, but the average person would tell you that once people began making comics available via digital downloads, for free, that’s when the comic industry began to steadily decline, and I would agree, who wants to buy a 24 paged magazine (not including ads) when you can get said magazine online for free. It’s inefficient, especially when the world economy is spiraling downwards at an unbelievable rate.
It’s hard to deny that kind of logic, when you could go and Google the latest issue of Wolverine, and have it on your computer within about, a minute. But, logically, this can’t be the only reason as to why the comic industry is declining, the music industry is still striving and people can go download every single Rolling Stones song since the 1970’s, all without leaving their computer seats.
Now, for me, I’ve pinpointed four things about the comic industry that has turned me away from superhero comics in general. I still read comics, obviously or I wouldn’t still be on this site, but I don’t read half as much as I used to. Before I would try and read every single Wolverine comic that came out each month, now I can’t read Marvel in general, nor can I stand DC.
Problem #1 – The Comic Publishers are to Concerned with Money:
This is true for any and everything thing retail wise. Theres the saying “Money talks”, and anyone who has money understands this well. A rich, famous man can get into the hottest restaurant without even waiting in line, while working class people have to wait two hours just to get into Red Lobster. It’s true, money talks, you can’t deny that, but in the words of Richard Armour, “That money talks, I'll not deny, I heard it once: It said, "Goodbye."
Money doesn’t last, which is why big name publishers, DC and Marvel specifically, keep grabbing and grabbing for all the money they can possibly get. Why is it that every 3 months, Marvel has some new big event that’ll “Change the entire workings of the Universe”? It’s because they understand that these events attract curious people who read this line and think, “Oh my, if I read this, I could possibly reading history in the making” and they are, they’re reading this history that has been continuing for 3 to 4 decades now, it’s the history of these big name companies sacrificing quality over quantity, and to this day, it still goes on.
This is why characters like Batman and Wolverine get about 8 series per year, because they sell, and they sell unbelievably well. With how much they sell, you’d think that these characters were actually real and we could go and meet them down in California. What’s sad about this is that by over saturating these characters like the way they are, they’ll soon turn away the fan base these characters had created, and when that time comes, they’ll sooner kill off these characters instead of trying to get the fan base back, and it’s sad.
These big name publishing companies don’t understand that if they focus on writing great stories, the money itself will come in turn, and it’s this stubborn-mindedness that turns away many readers today. Instead of mindlessly pumping out events each and every years for the sake of making money, they should focus on the quality of their stories instead of the number of characters they can throw in our faces.
Problem #2 – Comics Today Lack a Singular Vision for the Future:
Why is it that Japanese comics completely out sell and destroy the comic industry in retail value and in sell ability? It’s because with a manga, I never have to worry about some no-name writer coming out of nowhere to ruin the characters I love. On the covers of manga there’s usually one name, and one alone. On One Piece the name on the cover is Eichiro Oda, the author, and artist on the series. But on Green Arrow #12, there was four names on the cover, J.T. Krul, Diogenes Neves, Vincente Cifuentes, and Oclair Albert. Worst yet, in the very next issue most of those people aren’t even on the cover, heck, on the wiki for Green Arrow #12, there are 12 people given credit for this issue, and not a single one of them own the copyright to any of the characters that appeared in the issue.
In February of this year, Green Lantern was the highest selling comic out that month, selling over 71,500 copies of the issue. In Japan however, this May the 62 volume
of One Piece sold over 1,788,455 copies in 6 days, May 2 to May 8. Why is that, especially since that very volume is online for free? It’s because, since 1997 One Piece has been under the regulation of a single author who has control over all the events and has a sound plan for the future of the story. When I read One Piece, I never have to worry about any of my favorite characters being portrayed incorrectly, yet whenever I read a comic where Captain Marvel appears in, there always seems to be some incorrect portrayal of him that makes me stop reading the issue all together.
If the comics industry was to just let singular writers take control of a series for a prolonged period of time, let’s say 3 years, and if they do unbelievable at it, I can say with much confidence that for those 3 years, they would have a lot more happy readers.
Problem #3 – Comics Simply, aren’t Fun Anymore:
It’s true, when I read a comic, there’s always some unneeded drama, and some pointless killings for the sake of making a story awesome, which, unfortunately, it isn’t. Heck, Alan Moore himself even said that:
“If I were, god forbid, still doing superhero comics today, just like my ABC work from a couple of years ago, they’d be very very different from the Watchmen or Marvelman template. They’d be much more about having fun—whether that be intellectual fun or just plain fun—much more about that than doing any revisions.”
And that’s the thing, there’s just nothing fun about comics anymore. The last comic I read that actually made the act of reading the comic itself fun was Formerly Known as the Justice League. The whole series itself was great to read, from the silly interactions of the naïve Mary Marvel with the other characters, to the funny back and forth between Ted Kord and Booster Gold. What wasn’t to like about that, but despite how good it was, you don’t see many of these types of stories anymore. Why is that?
Well, let’s put it into terms of art for a second. David Finch himself said that, when you draw a person smiling it’s a lot harder than drawing
someone angry. With an angry person all you have to do is draw an upwards arc for a mouth, furrow the brows, and add some lines on the forehead, boom angry. With a person grinning though, you have to draw the cheeks puffed out, you have to thin out the upper and lower lips, you have to make the eyes smaller, and then you have to draw the teeth. It’s a lot more work to draw someone who is happy than it is to draw someone who is angry, and in terms of comics, it’s basically like this:
It’s a lot harder to write a fun story that is still well written and doesn’t make little of its intelligent readers, than it is to write a story about angry characters with wrathful things in it. Because a story focused on angry characters seems much more serious than one about happier things, and it’s this thought of mind that puts comics way behind manga.
But the thing is, making a fun story that is still well thought out and developed isn’t impossible, just look at One Piece. Even though some of the things in the story are just silly, I mean, the main character Monkey D. Luffy is a rubber man, and he fights with an array of attacks taking advantage of that rubber-ness, but still, the story is great. At
one point, when Kizaru is about to attack someone with his light powers he says “Light is… weight.” And if you don’t have any understanding of Einstein’s theory of Relativity, you’d have no idea what he is talking about, but that’s what we call fun on an intellectual level. Even while reading that, you don’t have to understand what he is talking about, to still enjoy reading it. Heck, even the TvTropes Page talks about this, they call it Fridge Brilliance, and One Piece has a lot of it.
Gallery
When I was reading the Skypedia arc of One Piece, at the end when Luffy achieves the dreams of all the lands people by getting the bell to ring for the first time in 400 years, there was nothing that ever put such a wider smile on my face than that one scene, and even after reading it over and over for an unbelievable amount of time, I still have yet to not smile at that same scene, and that’s what comics need. They need to make people smile again, comics should be about heroic characters doing heroic things, not dark characters doing dark things, because the world is horrible enough. Every day hundreds to thousands of people die and me and you won’t even know, because it happens so much it becomes common place. Comics should be a place to turn to when the world is giving you so much crap, you need a break.
I’m not saying get rid of all things dark, because that’s unnecessary. We need characters like Batman and Wolverine to serve as foil to characters like Billy Batson and Peter Parker, but when every, single character seems to be dark and angsty, that’s when things are getting out of hand.
Problem #4 – Comic Books Lack Variety as a Genre:
If I were to ask the average superhero comic reader, “What type of genre are there in superhero comics?” And they’ll say, superhero comics are a genre, there’s no other type of genre in superhero comics beside superhero comics. Okay, that makes sense right? When you go to read a book, libraries have them separated into differing genres, giving readers a wide array of books to choose from, so even if you don’t like science fiction, you could go and read historical fiction and etcetera, but with Superhero comics, not only are they a genre in themselves, they take up the vast majority of all comics that are out there today, and honestly not all readers want to read about angst.
In manga’s though, you have an entire industry based on telling a wide array of stories. You have 4-Koma (Comedy Manga), you have Seinen (Young Adult), you have Shounen (Young Boys), and even Shoujo (Young Girl), and then the sub genres within these sects of manga. With comics everyone associates superhero comics as the only form of comics out there, and even though it’s not true, superhero comics make up about 75, maybe 80% of the entire comic book industry.
The comic book industry as a whole has so many things it’s lacking. There’s a reason why, here on the Vine, people like me, TurokofStone, Silkcuts, and so many others constantly view the comic book industry as a whole in such a negative light. It’s because the heads of these companies just don’t understand what they’re doing. Turok will tell you that that pushing away the older audience who’s been reading for ages, for a younger audience that is virtually non-existent is a moronic thing to do. Silk will tell you how trying to destroy creator owned imprints like Vertigo for the sake of making money is an even more moronic thing to do. And it’s all true.
The industry has so many problems right now, to many to address. Though, for me, these 4 problems are some of the things that keep turning me away from comics as a whole.
@Redletter: I'm glad you agree with my points and found the article interesting. :]
@Jnr6Lil: Focal points to me, and as I said before these points are what I see wrong with the industry. Also, could you not quote the entire blog, just use reply.
@zombietag: And what about problem 3 or 4? Are you toying with my blogging senses? Lol.
um nope. that was the point i thought would be interesting to read so thats what i read. sry, i dont mean to upset you. just thought that section would be an interesting read, read it and then commented.
Well, first off I have never seen an anime were the female characters get into the same kinds of fights as the males do, every magical girl series is the same, which is why I am dreading the new Sailor moon show. One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, none of the female characters fight that much. DBZ didnt even have any females on the Z-team, 18 went from badass to wife/mom.
#2: I agree with you here, but only to the point that just because the person has complete control of their work, does not mean it will be good. Look at the star Wars prequels. George Lucas made utter garbage, just because he could. Watch the Plinket reviews of them. I do not agree with most of what Plinket says is bad about the films TBH, but I do agree that Lucas made three pieces of garbage. My friends & I now call it Lucasing. When you are allowed to ruin your own work because you have some much creative control, you have Lucas-ed it. The third Tenchi Muyo OVA is another example. WTF was that. Those 7 episodes, GXP, & The Holy Machine Wielder from Another World, were garbage, ruined not only the OVA-verse, but the entire franchise is in limbo. AND, the OVA-verse story is not complete. Not that it'll ever be finished. Because, while there were some good ideas, I admit, (the only bad addition is Noike) , the original creator needs to be filtered, so only the good comes out & as much crap as possible is removed.
Joss Whedon just lost it near the end, Buffy S6 was utter crap. The premire, the musical, the finale. S7 started out good, but again, the second half just went into the gutter. The co-airing seasons of Angel were better, but again, the ending was lame. & it happened when Joss was given more creative control after the move to UPN.
#3 There is nothing wrong with a series being overly dramatic. The problem is, "The Matrix Effect" , when that camera effect was made, everyone liked it, so every movie copied it. Avatar was hugely successful, so everyone tried to make 3D. The suits are so devoid of creative talent, that they see something good & just suck & leach everything good from it they can. Yes, make some funny comics. Do something different, not "to be different" , but because you can do it good. Be worth the money.
Captain Marvel used to be a fun character. I think maybe DC/Marvel should focus on other genres outside of Superhero fiction.
tell me about it. he is in my top 5 fav characters but he is so underused its scary. even paste pot pete gets more spotlight. and now theyve turned billy into a bit of a di*k. really hoping he gets his own series.
@COBRAMORPH: Haven't posted in awhile, but reading what you said made me feel obligated to respond. While your points about anime have some truth, I'd concede to you in anything in that regards cause I don't really watch much anime, I read manga. You're correct about characters like Nami, and Robin not fighting the same level of opponents as Luffy or Zoro, and across pretty much the "Big Three" of manga/ anime you see this to be true. It's not to say there aren't manga's where the guys don't fight the same level of opponents as the girls, the biggest examples of this being Freezing. There are also manga/ anime's where the opponents both the male and female characters fight are at the same level, Fate/ Stay Night and Elemental Gelade being the first to come to mind in this regard.
So while there may be some gender misrepresentation in differing manga's, it's doesn't feel as much of a deal as it seems you are making out of it. When you think of it from the point I made in bullet 2 of the blog, because of there being a singular author for the story, while it doesn't neccessarily mean that it's fair to the other characters, it's still consistent within the story that the author has been creating. When I read One Piece, I don't just suddenly expect Nami to just fight an admiral, in fact since the very beginning of One Piece it has been made clear that Nami isn't a fighter. She does things from the background, like trying to raise the money to save her village, or navigating her crew to the next location. This comes from the consistency found in the story belonging to one single author, instead of a multitude of writers.
My second bullet never mentioned anything about whether a story is better because it has a singular author, what it did mention though is that if you are a fan of a certain manga. You can expect for the story to follow a basic line of thought because you don't have to worry about the authors of the book changing mid plot twist. Not to say there aren't manga where the story does a complete face-heel turn, "History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi", being quite infamous for this. The majority of stories I've read of the manga variety have been very clear on what the story path will be.
As to your point about number 3, I don't recall ever saying there was anything wrong with drama. What I did say is that writing a story that is fun (note, I didn't say Funny) and doesn't make it's readers feel like they're being belittled is harder than writing an angry story about vengeance and things of that nature. When I say fun, I don't mean funny, let me just separate that line of thought. When I say fun, I mean fun for the readers. A comic that makes the act of reading the comic enjoyable. Instead of reading the next big event for Marvel, Dc, whatever and thinking, "Oh god I hope my favorite character doesn't get killed." I'd prefer if I could open a comic going, "I can't wait to see how my favorite hero confronts that oh so nefarious villain." Without having to see the whole 4 issues between where they killed off the hero's girlfriend, his dad, his mom, his best friend, his loyal dog, and the crashing of his car.
Nothing wrong with drama, but is it really necessary to just pile it on, and on, and on like they do? not saying the same doesn't happen in manga, cause it does, but falling back on point 2 manga authors are pretty forward about how a story will go. Especially since they're all given genre's where you can go look up a manga and see it falls under the "Tragedy" genre. You can't do that with most comics, especially with a comic that is close to getting the boot and needs some, unnecessary events to keep the readers reading.
Very interesting blog. Your points are well thought out and carefully constructed. Being a mainstream superhero reader, I have to say this has given me food for thought.
I think perhaps maybe another problem, is that they keep going back and re-telling the same stories with the same superheroes over and over again. Of course they do it a little differently each time, but they still keep sticking with the same characters for the past 70+ years...now this isn't really a big issue however, it might also neglect other characters who should get expanded on and put out there rather be written about for a couple of issues and then thrown into a corner. (Ok perhaps a little exaggeration there, but I am sure you get what I am trying to say) You can have the same heroes, but I wouldn't really keep the mindset that they would solely keep the comics flowing now yes of course there are some expanding with other characters but not to the extent where people would really know a great deal about them compared to other big names.
@Wolfrazer: I'm a bit on the fence on that being an issue. While yea, it's the job of the comic companies to create different characters for us to explore, most comic book fans are very fickle, or at least we try to be. I know this cause, as a comic book fan I myself am this very way, which is part of the reason I had stopped reading comic books for a year and still avoid reading a lot of them even now. A lot of comic fans cry out for new characters, but when it all comes down to it. DC fans want to read about Batman, and they want to read about Superman. It's this very reason why when they said that Tim Drake went straight to Red Robin, there was such an outcry about it, and while it's been confirmed that they didn't change much about his past, it's the hardcore comic fans that prevent new characters from ever really getting a chance to grow. So I'll agree to an extent with you. It's half the fault of the companies to get the characters out, but it's rests in our hands to make these characters get the chance to grow by supporting their books and helping that character's fan base grow.
Of all the points you bring, the one about the constant changes in the creative teams is the one that rings the most true IMO. If a writer or artist is only willing to do a dozen issues or so before moving on, how personally involved were they in the project? If you look at any period in a comic book that is admired most by the fan base, it was likely during a prolonged, single writer/artist run
No sir it was in the ruins from long ago.Main problem is Marvel and DC duopoly, culture. When mere publishers start to act like they are creators just because they have creative control over the writer's work it becomes a problem.Monopoly is not even inherently bad. Shueisha is by far the biggest manga publishers and they are nothing but a gift to the medium not a curse like marvel and dc. Because they know they are only publishers and focused grooming new talents. Sjw aren't problem mainstream comics have been exclusively bad from as long I have been them. Comics becoming a dumping or testing ground for wannabe/rejected tv/game/movie writers is a problem. Be thankful that they at least made comics a tool to preach their brand of social awareness,thus making it a relevant again. Otherwise Marvel/dc had almost killed comics 10-15 years ago. The market is growing lately thanks to amany so called 'sjw' children comics. I think Marvel/dc should exclusively focus on juvenile fiction from this point. That is the only area they growing in past few years and that is the only area where their content has some worth. They can't go digital without changing their current practices either because webtoons will render them irrelevant if they go full digital. The things comics can do if they hope to ever stand up to manga is 1.replace the whole Marvel/dc culture or 2.embrace webtoon,manga,manhua forms
SJW take over of Marvel/dc was some good old karma in action anyway. The disgustingly far right ,mysoginistic marvel dc deserved some much needed ironing. Imagine a medium that was almost 70 years old still being so aggressively male dominated: written by males, read by males.. especially considering the fact that more women in 21 century read fictional books than makes. Girls don't read comics not because girls don't like to read, but because they are not welcome in that medium. Seperating genres based on gender is understandable but a whole storytelling industry being so strictly 'boys only' is ridiculous. The biggest hit in manga history 'Kimetsu no Yaiba' mangaka is a woman. Something the American comics and their fans would never allow in their industry.
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