Do you think "Rogue One" will be better than "The Force Awakens"?

Rewatched TPM...honestly liked it better than TFA....even TCW would be better if it weren't for Hayden C somehow making the dialogue worse with his acting.

RotS is still the best movie though :/

As long as Vader gets a cool action scene.

@buttersdaman000: agree. I hate Attack of the Clones most. I kinda like TPM, and RotS is the best movie.

You do remember that in the movie Kylo Ren and the Supreme Leader point out how it is not natural for her to have fought back against Kylo's force power's like she did and that it was not natural how powerful in the force she was. Her being so powerful is not because Disney doesn't want to undermine the "strong, independent woman" trope, it is an actual part of the plot that's going to be further explored as the movies go on, because, like the characters in the movie point out, she should not be so powerful with no training. Something is up. It's not a Mary Sue thing, it is part of the story.

But if you make a character insanely powerful, they run the risk of being a Mary Sue regardless of plot. So far she's an incredible pilot, a lightsaber duelist, a powerful force user, and a better mechanic than Han Solo on his own ship.

@aros001:

Actually, a character can be a Marry Sue even with a good explanation for why she (or he) is as strong as she is. The original Marry Sue was a character from a Star Trek fanfic in which she had multiple degrees from Starfleet on all the fields she proclaimed expertise in. It was fully explained why she was so good at everything, but she was still a Marry Sue because she didn't have any apparent flaws and every major character was infatuated by her.

Aside from that I never actually used the word Marry Sue to describe her. Neither did the person I was replying to. We simply were taken out of the movie because this character was performing feats that went beyond our willing suspension of disbelief and were expressing why. There was no accusation until you came in.

As for the act itself, this still makes her even more of a prodigy than the Chosen One born of the Force who was destined to bring balance to the galaxy. I don't know what sort of twist they have in store for her, but as it stands there is no reason for her to be so powerful with the Force with absolutely no training under her belt at all.

At any rate, do you really want to get into an argument about whether or not she's a Marry Sue? I'd personally prefer not to waste my free time on an argument that's been done to death.

Well , Rogue One has Mads Mikkelsen and Darth Vader

So yes.

• She identifies herself as an Apache Helicopter.
• Nah, Kylo is just a crap swordsman.
• She was born in the wind.
• Han got old and is a tad rusty.

@metaljimmor: I meant no disrespect and I do apologize if I sounded too accusational. Guess I'm just a little irritated by how many people complain about Rey being a Mary Sue and how she's a terrible character because of it and I guess I just went off on the wrong person, so I am sorry about that.

LOL. Nice.

I'm guessing the only reason they brought Chewbacca to that island at the end of TFA is so they could open Episode 8 with a scene where Rey is out bench pressing him.

All I could think when she found Luke at the top of that mountain was, "Thank god this prodigy has arrived to complete Luke's training."

@lawz: lol, I think Chewie is there to get murdered by the Knights of ren, who totally aren't sith.

Were the Knights of Ren explained yet?

I'm sure it will be merely competent, just like The Force Awakens.

@lawz: nope, just like Reys parentage. Of course according to Daisy Ridley it was obvious who they are and we all missed it, so who knows?

So...anyone play Battlefront and seen the Scarif DLC maps?

I see one problem and I hope that was fixed in the reshoots: Mary Sue alert....We seriously don't need another Mary Sue in the star wars universe.

Define Mary Sue in this context?

@theamazingspidey: Rey is already a Mary Sue: A Character that's good at seemingly everything important within that universe(flying, repairing things, force powers, etc)...and contains no major character flaws. AKA a wishfullment character, often a female character because females are often cut off from important roles in science fiction. Princess Laya though is the type of character they should make for females. She has skilled, but isn't annoyingly covered in plot armor and good at everything. She has character flaws like being bossy and argumentative.

In the original star wars movie Luke is actually a Mary Sue. He is a low ranking character that suddenly gains a lot of ability & talent to make a major accomplishment(blowing up the death star).

Jyn looks like she too could be another Mary Sue, a low ranking character that becomes a straight boss by the end of the movie.

I agree, man. Rey was only microscopically flawed. I really liked The Force Awakens, but I barely re watch it because of how good Rey is at almost everything.

Disagree with you on Luke, though. Or at least, it wasn't bad enough to hurt the movie.

Well, Rogue One is a standalone film. I wouldn't blame theme for letting Jyn reach her peak by the end of the film.

@theamazingspidey: None of the other two Mary Sues overall hurt their films, but this is yet another Mary Sue, and after just having another female Mary Sue this soon, seeing another one would be very annoying this time around.

Jyn Erso is already more interesting than Rey, IMO.

Not sure.

Felicity Jones and Diego Luna are going to be stronger leads than John and Daisy.

Plus this happens

Anything is better than THe Force is garbage

Luke wouldn't really count as a Marry Sue. He starts off with no Force ability at all beyond the potential to learn and both Han Solo and Leia hardball him the entire first movie. Then later Yoda decides he doesn't want to train him because he's too much like his father, and only agrees because he doesn't have any other option. Then Luke decides to go fight Vader despite Yoda's warnings, thus proving Yoda right about Luke not being worthy of the training, and gets beaten down and loses a hand. In the very end Luke doesn't even beat the big bad. He gets tortured by lightning until his frantic cries of pain stir fatherly emotions in Vader and prompt him to save his son.

So Luke is missing a few key characteristics that make up a Marry Sue. He doesn't enter the story with all the relevant skills nor master them without proper training, he isn't well liked by the majority of the cast until much later in the story after he's proven himself, he makes rash decisions that blow up in his face, he's prone to arrogance once he gets his jedi powers that cause some problems when dealing with Jabba, and in the end his skill isn't enough to save the day. His entire journey leads up to his failure bringing redemption to another character. And of course he doesn't get the girl since it awkwardly turns out the girl was his twin sister the entire time.

Luke is a quintessential Heroes Journey character, but he has more than enough flaws and shortcomings to not be considered a Marry Sue.

@metaljimmor: In the first movie he is a Mary Sue.

You're talking about the entire series in the context of him not being a Mary Sue. I'm talking about just that 1st film. The same thing you are saying might be said about Rey later on. They can retcon/or fix certain things things that would no longer make her a Sue. But, as far as that one movie goes in that film she will always be a sue.

@lukehero:

Not really. Han treats him poorly the entire first movie and the first thing Leia says when she sees him is a comment on how short he is. Both of them give Luke a hard time. Luke as of the first movie could barely keep up with a training drone meant for children in terms of lightsaber skills and he has no access to Force abilities beyond the most basic stuff every Force sensitive has naturally. He was also whiny and self entitled. He only succeeded in blowing up the Deathstar because Han came in and saved him at the last second.

Being a Marry Sue is more than just being gifted at certain things. It comes from how the overall narrative treats you. Luke in A New Hope was just an Everyman character with no truly outstanding attributes. He was a decent mechanic but not as good as Chewie, he was a decent pilot but not as good as Han, and he was an okay shot but not as good as Leia. He didn't impress anyone with his outstanding skill nor quickly bond with members of the main cast, and the only one who seemed to believe Luke was capable of anything great was Obi-Wan, who let himself be killed so Luke wouldn't have to fight Vader before he was ready because Vader would've manhandled Luke at the time.

Ugh. An original character can't be a Mary Sue. That's defeats the whole point of the "insert" point of it.

Yea they can kill off these characters. Should provide a film with more weight. Should also fill in holes for the original trilogy.