David Goyer Hate

David Goyer Hate Captures The Internet:

The already much hated David Goyer made some interesting comments about She Hulk being Slut Hulk & MM Hunter being too obscure for a Live Action Movie.

Read The Story Here.

And Here.

And Here.

And Here.

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Guess I was wrong about Ole She Hulk.

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Alright his comments about MM bothered me, because Marvel is already on to talking racoons. While Goyer calls MM, who has made plenty of cartoon appearances and is a fan fav, "Obscure".

---------------Alright Please share your thoughts.

wow

Goyer hates green people

@allstarsuperman: I see. He's comments on She Hulk are pretty accurate. He's comments on MM are dumb.

She-Hulk just went up in my book.

She can call me... anytime

I don't care what anyone says, the Hercules/She Hulk pairing should of stayed.

This is the guy who ruined Blade Trinity. He sucks by default.

She-Hulk IS a slut.

As for the Martian, the op nails it.

Marvel is already on to talking racoons. While Goyer calls MM, who has made plenty of cartoon appearances and is a fan fav, "Obscure".

me-OWW

lol

Lol Logan ain't got time for these hoes.

@darthaznable: What's even more embarrassing is Logan is a bit of a man whore himself.

@pokeysteve: Yeah, pretty much man. He's comments on MM are much more eye raising than what he said about She Hulk.

@lukehero: Yeah. That guy falls in love with everyone.

@darthaznable: He's comments on MM really have me thrown. I guess we can only expect UBER main streamers in the JL films as long as Goyer is in charge.

making a talking raccoon after you have 10~ films of credibility = not that big of a deal (and frankly public perception thinks half the Sony and Fox movies are marvel too)

making a talking, shape shifting, telepathic, green alien after you have ...1 film under your belt = kind of a big leap.

I'm sure people will try and argue about the cartoon, but that is not as well known as you'd like to think. I looked it up once and it averaged like 1 m viewers per episode. 1 million people = 8 million dollars in movie tickets. = flop.

much as you want to think otherwise, we comic book fans are far and away the smallest minority when going to movie theaters. I'd be surprised if we even contribute 1% to the overall gross of a film.

Men creating women that take control of their sexuality by sleeping around isnt empowering, it is degrading.

She-Hulk is not empowering, comicbook women aren't empowering.

@fallschirmjager: Ehhh, was Iron Man or Thor that well known pre movies? GL was much more well known than Thor(pre movies). GL, Flopped like a Fish. So, a comic book movie flopping isn't about how well known a character is. It's much more about A. Is the film good. B. Marketing.

Iron Man is an exception, not the standard to which you should measure everything by.

Thor at least has norse mythology behind him. And his movie wasn't first either.

Hulk also had a TV show.

Besides...LOOK at how much money those first movies made. It wasn't that much. They were only making small profits until Avengers.

and no. Bad movies make tons of bank every single year. Transformers movies have made more money every single time and they're hardly cinematic masterpieces.

@fallschirmjager: Hulk sold a lot of comics Pre TV Show & was already a Marvel A lister.

Did you read Goyer's comments? He doesn't just want to bar MM from films because of lack of popularity. He flat out doesn't like MM.

and no. Bad movies make tons of bank every single year. Transformers movies have made more money every single time and they're hardly cinematic masterpieces.

Uhh, did you not read my comments about B. Marketing?

Thor at least has norse mythology behind him. And his movie wasn't first either.

Uhh So? Neither would the inclusion of MM. Does MM need a solo film? No. We're not even going to have him in the JL? WTF? Why not?

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Iron Man is an exception, not the standard to which you should measure everything by.

Mhhh No, it shows the potential for a B or a C lister to rise up in the ranks and become an A lister.

Most comic book women are not. There are exceptions and quite a few, even with in the Main Stream Marvel & DC. Mostly though, it's the Indie Comics that have this trait.

@lukehero: And TIH didn't make any money either. Go do the numbers on it. 263m world wide gross 150m dollar production budget. Add another 25-50 for marketing and that film loses money or barely breaks even.

CB fans seem to think making films = instant profit. Its not. And if you were the one writing the 150-250m dollar check, you wouldn't be so quick to make the movie either.

What a douche.

I agree with this.

X-Men, Blade, Hellboy and Daredevil all did really well despite not having any movies prior.

Superman Returns, Green Lantern, Ghost Rider, and Spawn all barely made a profit.

Martian Manhunter isn't super well known but neither were Blade, Daredevil and Hellboy and Manhunter wouldn't even have to carry his own movie.

Production budget was 150 Mill

Worldwide gross was 263 mill

Dammit, you edited your post....anyway since you added marketing then you have to add TIH Merchandise and DVD sales.

@pokeysteve: lol. Hellboy did not do very well. That's why we're not getting a 3rd film because it can't make any money. And I love those movies.

X-Men weren't a well known franchise? Please.

The original Blade did well because 1. Vampires. And 2. 40m dollar budget. Neither are the case for MMH.

DD also had a 75m dollar budget. Not possible for MMH movie. (and lets not even say he made tons of bank. That movie grossed 175m. Decent for the budget, but hardly smashing it out of the park)

So none of those applies. Try again.

Good. Now add 25-50 million for marketing (is usually the average and is not reported with the production budget) and then take away 1/3 of 263 for the Movie theater's take.

You barely break even or lose money. And I know a lot of people think the quality of the film is fairly underrated.

Edit: And lets not forgot that DC/WB has final say. If they wanted MMH, they'd have him. The fact that DC/WB is pushing Cyborg so much means that MMH's chance so of being in the movie in the first place were slim to none. It was probably always going to be Cyborg since the New 52 launched.

Are you kidding me? Hellboy made almost triple its budget back!!
X-Men didn't have any previous movies when the first was released and your cartoon logic applies to that too.
I'll give you Blade and vampires. I wonder if that's what reignited all this vampire crap in the first place.
Daredevil is another one that made more than its budget back even though everyone hated it.

Since when does a movie have to hit the one bil mark to be considered successful? They all apply.

Are you kidding me?

Hellboy. 66m dollar budget. Grossed 99m. Do you even math? Hellboy 2. 85m dollar budget 160m gross. Neither are even double, let alone triple...

They still weren't unknown and the original had a 75m dollar budget.

No. Vampire popularity surged in 1994 when Interview with the Vampire was released as a film with Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise - thats when Vampires got sexy instead of the terrifying that kept them occult monsters. And it only got worse since then.

I never said it had to hit 1b. But do the math on the films. Everyone you listed had small budgets (compared to today when they all have 150-250m dollar budgets) and still didn't do "very well"

DD for example. 75m dollar budget. 200m gross. Add in marketing and the movie theater's take and you're looking at about 25-30m dollar profit. People don't invest 150-250m dollars to make 30m today. Its just not going to happen.

And as I also said. Studios ALWAYS have the final say. If WB/DC wanted MMH, they'd have him. Its not Goyer's say. DC has been pushing Cyborg into the JLA for years now and frankly it was always going to be him instead of J'onn. I'd much rather have J'onn too, but I also know why they're doing it. He's an incredibly hard sell to the audience when you're just getting started.

@fallschirmjager: I'm the OP so I'm not here to debate anyone, but I think you rolled over a lot of my points though. Thanks for bumping my thread though.

I'm not asking for a solo film, neither are most Fans. We're scratching our heads on Goyer on bashing MM & his back story. Then suggesting he is too obscure to be in the JL movie. He's comments are baseless.

They do however provide great subtext into how WB thinks and what their strategy is. It actually explains a lot. None of it is very good though.

@pokeysteve: Since when does a movie have to hit the one bil mark to be considered successful? They all apply.

since Avengers and now everyone views everything else a failure.

Think what you want, but I find it incredibly humorous that everyone on comicvine thinks they know better than WB or any other movie studio.

I also think you're reaching quite a bit if you think 1 writer (who despite your opinion is critically acclaimed and hugely successful across Hollywood) doesn't like someone = WB's whole policy on MMH. He doesn't speak for them, he works for them. Just because Goyer doesn't like MMH doesn't mean WB can't use him if they don't want too. (Not that I think they will because of Cyborg)

The main point I was addressing was the stupid comment about Rocket that everyone likes to throw around with absolutely zero context, I wasn't intended to go off in a rant like I did. Sorry.

@fallschirmjager: This is what the Topic is for. So you can come and rant about your opinion. No need to apologize. :D

Think what you want, but I find it incredibly humorous that everyone on comicvine thinks they know better than WB or any other movie studio.

This is the OLE "The Critic Has Never Done It Argument". This has never cut it, and it never will. This argument is used in sports, art, film, and ever other topics. "She doesn't have kids, so she can't criticize how I raise my kids. Even if I am doing something stupid." "He's never been married, he can't lecture me about my marriage. Even if I am cheating on my wife." You get where I am going here?

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I also think you're reaching quite a bit if you think 1 writer (who despite your opinion is critically acclaimed and hugely successful across Hollywood) doesn't like someone = WB's whole policy on MMH. He doesn't speak for them, he works for them.

He is The go to guy right now. WB has put Goyer in the limelight & he has done the most interviews and talked the most about the DC film universe. If WB didn't want him to be their spokes person for the DC universe, they would have told him a long time ago to STFU & stop doing so many damn interviews.

Okay I'll give you Hellboy cause I sorta mighta kinda looked at the wrong number.......=/

Manhunter isn't unknown either. He's been around for 60ish years.

What was the next "sexy" vampire movie after that? Next I can think of is From Dusk Till Dawn and that's really just because of Hayek.

I don't see the big deal with small budgets as long as the thing makes money. It's about percentages, not totals. All of the movies we're talking about had small budgets because they were testers. They were the start of a new market. The superhero film genre. Every superhero movie now gets a huge ass budget because they know audiences like them. Thor is an excellent example of that. I bet they chucked 150mil at GotG too.

@fallschirmjager: When I mean Universe. I do mean "Film Universe."

@lukehero: The difference is cheating on your wife is hardly a subjective act. Lying and cheating isn't something that can be debated.

Not using MMH isn't clear cut. There are advantages and disadvantages and yes, expertise does matter. A more comparable one is spanking your child. Not something that is clear cut.

Its yours opinion that its stupid, its not a wide spread belief. Comic book fans might think so, but we're so small a fanbase that we're irrelevant to a studio's decision making (despite we liking to think otherwise its true. The amount of money we contribute to a film is tiny. They have to cater to the general audience, not us. We barely exist as sad as it is) I don't like the decision but I completely understand it.

And yes. If comicvine was put in charge of WB studios, it would be a complete disaster and the company would go belly up within a year at most.

What Goyer thinks is irrelevant. If WB wants something, they'll make him do it or find someone who will. He isn't their spokes person. They like his work they want him to do more. There's no point in controlling what he says, because its irrelevant. Studios have done this all the time.

John Carter has been around for nearly 100 years and his movie still flopped. And I liked it a lot.

Lost Boys was a sexy vamp movie...might have been before Interview. Also that movie with Lestat and the singer chick who died.

Smaller budget = less risk. Losing 50m is not as big of a deal as losing 250. It matters.

And no, if GotG bombs and they lose 150m they will not chuckle. They may not stop making movies, but they're not going to forgot how the f*cked up either. Those movies got small budgets because they didnt need a big one. It was possible to do them for smaller. For something as visually and cgi intensive as MMH (who will need CGI for nearly all of his powers) is going to be a big ass budget. And you know there's no way in hell they're making a JL movie on 50m.

She-Hulk is no more a slut then many of male characters that sleep around. Less so because she has less showings. I don't see Goyer calling them out.

MM can work. Yes there are problems but they are minor and can be changed. Though a fan of MM I'm not sure I want him in the film but that's my own issues. I find it funny Goyer said Martian Manhunter's name was silly when he got characters like Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman about.

@fallschirmjager:

And yes. If comicvine was put in charge of WB studios, it would be a complete disaster and the company would go belly up within a year at most.

You're going to an extreme. Once again the ole that guy hasn't done it thing. It's never worked. Sports Writers get bashed by Athletes for never actually playing the sport at a high level. Yet, many coaches have never played pro ball either. Almost none of the GM's have done so.

Just because someone has not done something or does not serve in a similar position does not mean their opinion is not valid on said topic.

What Goyer thinks is irrelevant. If WB wants something, they'll make him do it or find someone who will. He isn't their spokes person. They like his work they want him to do more. There's no point in controlling what he says, because its irrelevant. Studios have done this all the tim

You mean what the guy they hired to do the job of writing the script says is irrelevant? If they didn't like his ideas they wouldn't have hired him in the first place. So, yeah what he says means a lot.

Yes there is a point, he is a spokes person. He has done numerous interviews talking about the film, more interviews than any of the cast members or even Zack Snyder.

They have to cater to the general audience, not us. We barely exist as sad as it is) I don't like the decision but I completely understand it.

This is the mind set of why DC was scared for so long to do anything other than the meat and potatoes of Superman & Batman for so long. Hell they didn't even think to do a team up movie until Marvel did it. If the fanboys like something, maybe you should try it on wider audience. It's like a testing pool.

@lukehero: Your comparison here is fundamentally flawed. No body here is a coach, no one here has spent their entire career in the film industry. (at least not that I know of)

A more apt comparison is someone who watches the NFL every weekend criticizing his team's draft. Despite the fact that he has never done so much as a minute of scouting in his life.

(getting tired of speaking in metaphors tbh lol)

Your opinion might not be invalid, but it also doesn't hold much weight either. Just because you're a fan of something does not make you an expert on all things concerning it. Fans are usually the worst people to ask in fact, because they can rarely see past their love of said property and see it objectively.

@fallschirmjager: It doesn't matter, the fan actually often has a point. The fan can often see what the coached missed. Just because someone hasn't spent their entire life dedicated to something, doesn't mean we dismiss their opinion.

That's OK. Good talk.

Last I checked Mike McCarthy and Ted Thompson weren't calling me up to think of what I thought of the Packers' draft this year. (It was pretty good btw and I actually have spent a lot of time scouting)

You can like or not like the decision, its your choice. But that doesn't mean your opinion is better than WB and you know better than they do. That's all I'm saying. Its tiring seeing internet directors everywhere. Just wait and see what happens and criticize it after the fact, not before.

Martian Manhunter won't work as a solo movie. He might, however, be fine appearing in JLA.

The bigger crime is that Wonder Woman still doesn't have a solo movie. Martian Manhunter, all in all, is still unknown to non-fans. Most people might not know anything about her, but Wonder Woman is still an extremely popular name to the general audience. People at least know of her - she's certainly more powerful than Iron Man originally was.

lol at Logan calling She-Hulk juggernaut sloppy seconds, Oh snap!

@fallschirmjager: Ugh can you stop defending the hacked off, arrogant jerk that is Goyer here please? He's insulted comic book fans, disrespected fictional characters that have a strong fanbase and jerked off over any hope of there being a solid and decently framed DC Cinematic Universe? Is it beyond your ability to understand why so many comic book fans hate the current direction in light of rude and uncalled for comments like what Goyer has done here? This is the guy who's writing the direction for the new DC Cinematic Universe. A guy who says people who know who Martian Manhunter is haven't been laid. I may as well start banging my head against the wall and take up alcoholism now because I'm detesting what DC and Warner Bros are doing with their franchise now. It's not a case of knowing better than the company, it's a case of seeing where the holier than thou execs are talking so far out of their A-Holes that they can't see the light of day nor have the insight to understand the characters. This is why Marvel are ahead of DC in films at the end of the day. They at least try and do the source material justice even if it does fail.

Meh, I don't care

@lvenger: I don't even agree with the decision. But just because I don't agree with something, doesn't mean I don't understand it.

Its not as simple as translating the page to the movie. Comic fans don't understand that.

MMH was never an option as soon as they put in Cyborg. Andthere are myriad of reasons why we probably won't see him. Goyer's comments are irrelevant.

And as I said, I was merely addressing the idiotic comment that people like to throw around with Rocket. Because its not comparable at all.

Marvel has more movies than DC not because of anything you mentioned. They have more because Superman Returns and Green Lantern failed (and the JL script got owned during the 2008 Writer's strike or was it 2009? Whatever) and Nolan's Batman was not suited for a universe with other heroes. Not even to mention their properties are spread out because they sold them off in the 90's which = more movies.

Yeah, I get you don't like Man of Steel. Plenty do. Has nothing to do with the conversation. Goyer not liking MMH isn't that big of a deal. Plenty of writings/directors/actors say shit like this all the time. Just recently Viggo Mortensen said far worse of the LotR trilogy. (And I could cite many more examples, if you wish) There's no point in getting butthurt over it because it doesn't change anything.

As he should. They come into this country and tek er jubs

@fallschirmjager:

Last I checked Mike McCarthy and Ted Thompson weren't calling me up to think of what I thought of the Packers' draft this year. (It was pretty good btw and I actually have spent a lot of time scouting)

You can like or not like the decision, its your choice. But that doesn't mean your opinion is better than WB and you know better than they do. That's all I'm saying. Its tiring seeing internet directors everywhere. Just wait and see what happens and criticize it after the fact, not before.

----So Professional >>>> Every Fan opinion 10/10 Times. That's so false it's funny.

I think you're going for the over protection of WB here. Still good talk.

Professionals make plenty of mistakes that the non professionals catch; Malpractice from Doctors, Draft Busts from Sports Teams, Movie Flops from Studios, etc.

Still good talk.

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Goyer's comments are irrelevant.

No. OK. This is the one point I need to be firm on. Don't you think they(WB) had incredibly long and detailed meetings on his idea for Batman vs Superman & the direction of the DC movie universe? Seeing as how he wrote Man of Steel & is Writing this next movie as well? He wouldn't go around bashing MM if WB were planning on using him in a film soon. He's comments are very relevant.

@fallschirmjager:

Just recently Viggo Mortensen said far worse of the LotR trilogy.

That's not the same thing at all. One guy is making his comments post project completion, the other guy is making them pre project completion. Viggo isn't some superstar actor either. Famous, but not all that powerful where he would be calling the shots on LOTRs.

@lukehero: And fan >>>> professional 10/10 is 100% true? Okay.

No they aren't. Plenty of people do this crap all this time. Viggo for example like I mentioned just did it to LotR. I'm pretty sure Tobey Maguire said something insulting about Spider-Man way back when. And I could keep going on if you give me time to hunt down examples. It literally happens, all, the, time.

People like to think writers/directors/actors have all the power when it comes to movies. They have zero power. They are employed by the studios until the studio isn't happy anymore. What they personally think is absolutely irrelevant.

You want an example? My favorite one is the Wasp one. Joss Whedon wanted to use Wasp. Studio said no, use Widow instead. Widow was in the movie.

What the studio wants, happens. Not what the writer wants. If MMH isn't in JLA it wasn't Goyer's decision and his feelings about the character have nothing to do with it.

The director might be the one painting the picture, the writer might be making the paint and the actor might be the model for the piece, but the studio is one who decides what gets painted, what colors you use and what pose the actor is in.