Avengers> New 52 Justice league

Who would you like to see take over writing after Johns??????

After reading all of the new 52 JL series and the first 8 issues of the marvel now Avengers. I can say that IMO the avengers is a superior book. I know I've well documented my feelings towards Geoff johns before but really this book is awful aside from the art. He butchers characters and the story telling is so cliche' and pandering. Avengers in the other hand is actually a good read. It has it's flaws but Geoff Johns' JL is just bad on top of bad. What do you think?

Well, you've obviously voiced your opinion on Johns in the past, but I really like the New 52 Justice League.

I agree. Hickman's Avengers is pretty great, and Infinity looks awesome. Johns is destroying every character in that book not named Aquaman.

I'm honestly not a fan of Hickman's Avengers series, although I'm excited for Infinity. And I do agree that the New 52 JL has its flaws, but I prefer it.

@rulerofthisuniverse: I know I have I said it in the OP lol. But you can't argue he's butchered Wonderwoman, Batman and Superman. Hell he even took Hal out of the book to suit his own story telling in "Green Lantern". And i like dc more than marvel. I just re read volume 1 of the n52 JL and I really tried to like it but its just bad.

I like Justice League more.

@sog7dc: Nope, can't really admit he's butchered those characters because I don't really feel that way. Justice League is my 3rd or 4th favorite book right now.

@rulerofthisuniverse: Well allow me to explain

1. Wonderwoman was actively and aggressively looking for a fight

2. Superman was beating the he'll out of batman and Hal Jordan because they were there

3. Batman has been basically a punchline and the only thing he has done was going to apokalips to get superman....after he revealed his identity ( an identity that Jim Gordon doesn't even know) to Hal Jordan after knowing him for what? 2 days?

4. Darksied was barely even a threat. I mean at no point did it actually make me feel like darksied was a danger (other than the art)

Preach!

@wolverine08: And inversely, immiduatley in avengers Ex Nihilio

seems like he may really kill everybody. His sister and that robot (I forget their names) even seemed like dangerous and credible threats. I'm enjoying avengers and two of my least favorite characters are in it. And I'm not enjoying JL while at least 4 of my favorite charcters are in it. To me that speaks volumes

@sog7dc: 1) I've always thought the writing for WW has been fine.

2) What are you talking about?

3) That's an opinion. In my opinion, he's not. I thought its been working fine. Batman revealed his identity to inspire Hal, and he probably thought he was going to die anyway.

4) I believe you're forgetting the part where he knocked out the entire League with a single move when he first appeared, blasted the crap out of Superman, beat the crap out Hal with barely any effort, tortured and experimented on Superman, and survived getting a WW's sword and Aquaman's trident through his face.

I disagree Geoff Johns is one the greatest writers in the buisness he's revitalized so many characters and the fact that you know them and think they're cool now is because of Johns. JL is one of my favourite books at DC right now Johns isn't actually butchering any of the characters he's been writing them fine. Avengers is also a great title but I prefer JL over Avengers.

Even though Johns JL isn't very good, his "Throne of Atlantis" arc on JL was incredible. Then again, it did focus on the only character Johns writes well in that book, Aquaman.

@rulerofthisuniverse:

1. Wonderwoman is an advocate for peace. She'll kick ass id she has to but it's never the first resort.

2. Inmetropolis when they first met superman just assumes thy even though batman and Hal bear no resemblance to the parademons he'd already met, that they were the bad guys. And then he begins to beat the hell out of the both of them. He choked batman while asking him to talk. And made Hal say " this guy I going to kill us!!!" superman would never do any if that

3. In the first volume Alone there's been the "just a guy in a bat costume" the "wanna be super human" the "what can you do" the "your belts empty btman" (after batman said he'd done research on superman he thought his array of tastes would get the job done?) and there plenty more that I can't remember right now

4. Knocked out or knocked down? Theres a distinction to be made their. And he hit superman with an omega beam that only managed to KO supes for a few minutes. Yes he beat the crap out of Hal but GLs have been grossly depowereed in the n52. Bullets have cracked Hals constructs in the n52. His minions experimented in an already KO'd superman. And any number of other characters could have survive those attacks. It doesn't set Darksied apart as a universal threat. And that's what darksied is; a universal threat.

I disagree, I find Hickman's Avengers boring and it lacks focus on..y'know, THE AVENGERS, choosing to force psuedo-convoluted space "builders" motives down our throats. And the idea isn't even unique. "Oh, we are supremely old beings and we judge you unworthy of life, so, yeah, we gonna kill you." come on man.

@theincrediblesuperhulk8642: Johns has butchered alot of characters In the JL. batman superman and winderwoman all come to mind immidiatley. I agree that what he did for the green lanterns is awesome. What he's doing for aquaman is as well. But he can't write batman. He treated superman and Wonderwoman like punch first think later bullies. And he even removed one of the JL team members jut so it fit in with his GL maintitle. I can't agree he's one of the best. He's great with some and horrible with other characters. And when he's bad he's reeeeaaalllllyy bad

I don't like current Justice League issues too but I don't think anyone in DC will do better than Johns on JL.

@the_stegman: Johns' JL is more original?

1. I at first didn't like Johns' Superman, but I think he's starting to understand Supes more, I'm impressed with what he did in Trinity War, how Superman thought he killed Doctor Light and actually turned himself in, instead of letting the useless hero vs hero fight continue, it takes a big man to do that, and if felt like a Superman-ish thing to do.

2. His Batman is...eh

3. Wonder Woman has always been a paradox, she's both a warrior and a peace embassador, she's not afraid to throw the first punch, she's not really written that much out of character.

4. It makes little sense of GL to be on the JL anyway, he's a space cop, he has an ENTIRE sector to police, not just Earth, so him taking a leave of absence from his little superfriends club to do his JOB makes more sense. It's like a police officer choosing his bowling team over going to the police station.

Didn't say that it was, but it's more entertaining and focuses more on the title characters rather then making them reactive standby figures to some global threat.

@modunhanul: grant Morrison could and so could Greg Pak and Scott Snyder and Azzarello all come to mind

@sog7dc: 1) I haven't really been noticing that, it's been fine with me.

2) Oh, I know what you're talking about now. Superman just stopped a terrorist attack and suddenly, two superhumans come looking for him with the exact same incredibly powerful bomb. It's easy to understand the sense of urgency in the situation. As for choking Batman, it was shown throughout the whole thing that everyone thought Batman had powers. Based on how his throat wasn't being completely crushed that Superman wasn't using all of his strength on the choke hold, aka something that would barely affect a superhuman.

3) It was clearly shown throughout the whole book that everyone thought Batman was a superhuman. As for the "your belt's empty" thing, Batman was obviously not prepared for an attack by Superman. He was just stalling until Hal showed up, who actually had a chance.

4) The only people that were knocked down were Superman and Flash. Then he shot the crap out of Superman. And getting a WW's sword and Aquaman's trident through your gave and still standing as if it were a bee sting is no small feat.

@the_stegman:

1. Yeah it only took him 22 issues to hit his stride lol but seriously that bit of characterization was the first time I felt like superman was actually in this book. But I'll give him his credit for that.

2. His batman isn't batman. Like Hal said he's "just some guy in a batsuit" and that's why I have such a problem with it.

3. In superman for tomorrow when the JL thought superman was gonna use a weapon that they thought killed a million people. Wonderwoman tried to talk the situation down before she drew her sword. In this book she actually says "it's a great day for a fight" like some salty pirate instead of a princess

4. I have mixed feelings about this because while you have a point I must point out that while batman dealt with tw court of owls and joker he remained on the team. While superman dealt with h'el

He remained. While Wonderwoman fought gods she remained. So there really is no reason for Hal to be gone

@rulerofthisuniverse:

1. It's been a glaring issue for me

2. Let's look t this through a wide angles lense. Superman with his super vision looks at a parademon. Then he sees two people who he knows to be heroes and assumes that because they're carrying the same bomb that they are the enemy and he must beat them into the ground. Superman with his super vision couldn't see that batman was human by looking through his skin? And why would someone with powers need a utility belt? A sense of urgency would have been ok but this was just balls to the wall out of character. Superman took 3 issues before he cut loose on h'el so why did batman and Hal warrant such aggression?

3. I think I addresses this in number 2

4. Was anyone knocked out though? As in unconcious? Nope. And Im willing to bet that superman, WW, Aquaman, Thor, MM, Hyperion etc could all have survives that attack

@sog7dc: I agree with most of your points, I don't particularly care for his Batman, he's making Superman better, though I disagree with Wonder Woman, she's always had a warrior's mentality, even in elseworld stories like Kingdom Come, as for the GL thing. There's difference between dealing with villains in your own titles and still having time to meet for the League and becoming the LEADER of an entire organization of space cops, and even before that, Hal was ''dead'' which was why he wasn't with the League.

@the_stegman:

I forgot about Hals "death". You're right about that. But it would have been better if he didn't leave because he started a fight. He shouldve said that he had corps business to take care of. Yeah she has but she has always been the talk first type. Even when superman was controlled by Maxwell lord she tried being peaceful at first

Im not really a fan of both but id pick JL over avengers and id like to see mark waid or ed brubaker take over after johns

@sog7dc: 2) First off, he doesn't know Batman to be a hero as most of his urban legend was associated with demons, night/shadows, and vampires (as Flash mentioned), not exactly the most heroic things in the world. As for the super-vision point, 1: You don't have to an alien to have superhuman powers or be terrorists/members of an evil organization/associated with aliens/etc. 2: If you did (which you don't anyway so it doesn't really matter), how would he be able to tell if he was human by looking at his skin? Unless you meant organs or something...but it still doesn't matter.

3) Not really.

4) Yeah, I'm pretty sure they were all knocked out except for Superman and the Flash. As in unconscious. And no one you just mentioned could survive both WW's sword and Aquaman's trident being completely stuck through their face, especially without even falling to the floor in pain.

@rulerofthisuniverse:

2. Hal did so why wouldn't superman? Hal knew his name and knew "the drill" furthermore about my vision points. Superman saw the parademon. So naturally the guy In the batsuit and the guy in the space cop

Uniform are obviously all on the same team. And I was insinuating he could scan batman's body to see he was a normal human being. He used his vision to read one if lous' texts so it's definitely within his character to do something like scanning someone. And you think it's in supermans character to just assume everyone he fight I superhuman and can take his punches? That's not the Clark I know. And I did mean scanning his organs and tissue etc.

3. Ok I'll play ball. Everyone assumed batman had powers. Superman being the guy who could search someones body for abnormalities like he did against the elite would be the ONE person who could actually check. But instead he opts to just swing his fists.

4. Nobody was knocked out. At least there's 0 proof of anyone being knocked out. They were certainly knocked down but not out. There's no evidence anyone was unconscious. Well I guess that's just matter of opinion then friend. All those characters are incredibly durable and heal very well. So I guess we should just agree to disagree here.

1. Agreed

2. That's young aggressive Superman. It made sense

3. Batman told Hal his identity because he thought if he didn't Hal would never trust him.

4. Agreed but that's probably because they plan on doing something much larger with him in the future

That justice league is terrible, writer puts batman out of character like no ones business.......

@peppeyhare:

To me you can't justify Hal Jordan knowing and Jim Gordon being in the dark. Certainly Jim is more deserving of the trust

I wasn't justifying it. I'm just assuming that's Geoff John's explanation for it.

@peppeyhare: Gotcha.

@sog7dc: while i do agree with most of your points like batman saying "please superman stop" when he's getting a beating he can't write batman,he made superman a punching bag, darkseid being hurt from a stab to the eye when he has been known to appear out of nowere and surprise superman ect. You also have to calm down because the new 52 just started if you think about it, the characters have alot of time to grow. if you believe batman has been butchered than read his other books they are amazing, batman,batman and robin,detective comics are all excellent.Every now and them we get an amazing feat from each character like WW vs first born,superman bench pressing the earth,batman escaping the court of owls are all amazing. I would say just give it time to grow before you fully judge, atleast wait till it hits number 40 but hey what do i know.

IDK but I like the Avenger a lot more than JL. I read up both but I'd prefer the Avenger's stories.

@sog7dc: wholeheartedly agree. Read both since the beginning and Avengers is definitely the superior book top to bottom.

I actually like new 52 JLA more..

At first I really thought Avengers was hard to follow, no larger emotional relationships between characters and I couldn't keep the story straight (is still don't understand what the White Event was)

I don't know if its better than Avengers but I really hated Johns JL.

I don't like both books but Avengers right now is worse for me.Trinity War may not be the best thing out there but so far it has been way more interesting for me than all of the Infinity build up and cosmic bs that I don't care about from Hickman.

Pretty much agree. Avengers can get quite complex with all the different plot threads and a little dry at times, but I've always found that it's made for some entertaining issues. There are some flaws (like a larger focus on plot and world-building as opposed to the individual Avengers and their interrelationships), but these are fairly minor compared to JL's overwhelming inconsistency, boring plot arcs, and terribly abrasive characterization. Johns' JL run just feels hollow and rushed for the most part, only the Throne of Atlantis story was really engaging.

The White Event is a concept taken from the New Universal series. New Universal was an attempt by Marvel to create a separate, more realistic alternate universe dealing with superheroes.

In this universe, the Earth experiences 'White Events' when it enters a paradigm shift. Each White Event endows its users with superhuman powers, like the Nightmask and the Starbrand, and they all serve a purpose.

Hickman has basically reused this concept and reintroduced it into the mainstream Marvel universe with a new Nightmask and Starbrand.

Uhmm he was working off of what Grant Morrison was doing for Action with Superman. And it was only the first arc that Superman was hot headed just like in Action. I don't see how he's butchered Wonder Woman she's always been like that. more so now in the New 52. His Batman is fine there is nothing wrong with him of course he get's his ass kicked all the time because he's only human and he's hanging with gods although it seems to be getting better now but he's done nothing wrong with Batman. He also redefined Both Wally West and Barry Allen in his Flash runs, Ocean Master, Flash Rouges, Black Adam, Black Manta, Shazam, Hawkman and the entirety of the JSA. He's never that bad. He doesn't butcher characters Frank Miller butchers characters and the big one that comes to mind is SUPERMAN.

Justice League, imo, is one of the most depressing books I've ever had the displeasure of reading, which is why I dropped it like a bad habit. Avengers on the other hand has been great. I love Hickman's cosmic odyssey.

I love JL. Forever Evil has been great

Yeah.

I wonder when Justice League will get a new writer as well